Upstate New York Aviation Thread - 2020

SQ22 · Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:19 pm

Welcome to the Upstate New York Aviation Thread 2020. Please continue your discussion and to post your updates here.

Link to previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411875

cosyr · Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:46 pm

Finally got to fly the nonstop UAX E175 SYR-DEN and back this week. I was really impressed to see that F was fully catered from SYR to DEN. I assume that means they supply the meals in DEN for both directions. No oven, so not hot meals, but it's not a really long flight. They do still offer hot towel service, which the FA explained that they used the hot water spigot for tea to accomplish that. It's too bad that they don't offer the cold Bistro on board things, though, only snack boxes.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:02 pm

DL just announced new A220 routes for this year, that frees up some larger regional jets (CRJ9, E175’s, etc...). Hopefully they will add some addition routes with the smaller jets to upstate NY.

Hopefully this is when ROC or SYR gets BOS service with Delta.

DL has offered one-off SYR-SLC with the A319 in the past, hopefully that route is in their future with the A220

cosyr · Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:36 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
DL just announced new A220 routes for this year, that frees up some larger regional jets (CRJ9, E175’s, etc...). Hopefully they will add some addition routes with the smaller jets to upstate NY.

Hopefully this is when ROC or SYR gets BOS service with Delta.

DL has offered one-off SYR-SLC with the A319 in the past, hopefully that route is in their future with the A220

Given that the 717 is a regular visitor to multiple upstate cities, it stands to reason that eventually the A220 will be a regular. Ultimately, isn't the A220 meant to be a 717 replacement for Delta? I think they've put that off a bit, while they accelerate MD8/9 retirements, but they won't need so many planes in the 100-130 seat segment in the end.

WeatherPilot · Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:55 pm

Syracuse Airport wants to know what non-stop destination travellers want next in survey.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.locals ... -over/amp/

Link to Survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SYRTravel

SyracuseAvGeek · Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:49 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Syracuse Airport wants to know what non-stop destination travellers want next in survey.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.locals ... -over/amp/

Link to Survey:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SYRTravel

Everyone make sure to say Salt Lake City, Dallas , and Houston. Hopefully we will get at least one of those if enough people do it.

cosyr · Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:39 pm

Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

aeroc · Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:27 am

Anyone see this in the latest OAG update?

B6 BOS-BUF JUN 5>3[5] JUL 4>3[5] AUG 5>3[5] SEP 1.3>0.8[4]

BUF-BOS is less than daily come September.

jworks158 · Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:46 pm

aeroc wrote:
Anyone see this in the latest OAG update?

B6 BOS-BUF JUN 5>3[5] JUL 4>3[5] AUG 5>3[5] SEP 1.3>0.8[4]

BUF-BOS is less than daily come September.

Gonna make an educated guess here,
Sometimes that happens when they only file part of the month.

SyracuseAvGeek · Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:36 pm

cosyr wrote:
Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

tphuang · Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:25 pm

aeroc wrote:
Anyone see this in the latest OAG update?

B6 BOS-BUF JUN 5>3[5] JUL 4>3[5] AUG 5>3[5] SEP 1.3>0.8[4]

BUF-BOS is less than daily come September.

3x daily apparently due to needing the aircraft for JFK flights. September is a partial month.

cosyr · Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:48 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

But they also had multiple flights per day. Could it work with only one flight per day, timed for their European connections? At least to start, and then they could build back up to 2 flights a day with other types of connections in mind.

bellcc · Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:43 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
cosyr wrote:
Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

I would love to see Air Canada back in Syracuse, but the gate Air Canada previously used was very small, in the corner of the terminal near TSA. I do not believe a Dash-8 would be able to fit in that gate due to the long wingspan. Air Canada has occasionally sent a CRJ-100 to SYR to make up for canceled flights before, and that plane does indeed fit in the gate. If Air Canada wanted to return they would have to find another gate to use the Dash-8 with, or use a CRJ for that smaller gate. Both options would result in having to decrease the number of flights.

teneriffe77 · Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:04 am

Actually having a Dash 8 at Ac's old position would be a problem cause NW used to park a DC-9 there and the time I took the YYZ flight just before it ended there was a UAEX parked at jetway for some reason

DCA-ROCguy · Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:37 am

It is surprising to me that Air Canada could not make Rochester or Syracuse work with Dash 8's. Canada has 37 million people. AC's hub at YYZ offered ROC and SYR passengers unmatched one-connection access to Canada, plus AC as an option to other continents. Whatever.

So, if a smaller aircraft was still needed...this is another case of the industry really failing thinner routes. 19-seat aircraft play a vital role. Cape Air flies even smaller Tecnams, which is a new-design aircraft. Legacy carriers like AC can't have their affiliates fly these aircraft to keep smaller routes going?

Jim

United_fan · Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:22 pm

Air Canada first used Dash 8's when ROC service started. Air Ontario,I believe.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:53 pm

DCA-ROCguy wrote:
It is surprising to me that Air Canada could not make Rochester or Syracuse work with Dash 8's. Canada has 37 million people. AC's hub at YYZ offered ROC and SYR passengers unmatched one-connection access to Canada, plus AC as an option to other continents. Whatever.

So, if a smaller aircraft was still needed...this is another case of the industry really failing thinner routes. 19-seat aircraft play a vital role. Cape Air flies even smaller Tecnams, which is a new-design aircraft. Legacy carriers like AC can't have their affiliates fly these aircraft to keep smaller routes going?

Jim

Unfortunately Air Canada’s affiliates have stopped flying the Beech-1900 all together. The only way I could see it POSSIBLY working (and still a long shot) is with WestJet, Pacific Coastal flys Saab340 and Beech-1900’s for them on the west coast (YVR) and also their Calgary base. IF Pacific Coastal begins a eastern base of operations then I MIGHT be able to see return of Canadian service to Syracuse and Rochester.

Other wise I don’t see them filling a 50 seat jet, even once daily, out of SYR or ROC.

WeatherPilot · Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:49 pm

Apparently Cape Air filed a proposal with the FAA to fly PBG-BOS EAS flights.

This is probably to compete with Boutique who they lost Massena to and also SkyWest who took Ogdensburg from them.

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:59 am

WeatherPilot wrote:
Apparently Cape Air filed a proposal with the FAA to fly PBG-BOS EAS flights.

This is probably to compete with Boutique who they lost Massena to and also SkyWest who took Ogdensburg from them.

Is the PBG EAS contact up already? Feel like SkyWest was just awarded it yesterday. The town of Plattsburgh likes that they have jet service with a major carrier.

SyracuseAvGeek · Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:05 am

SkyWest and Silver also submitted proposals. What is VERY interesting is that JetBlue submitted comments about service, they said they support and stand behind Cape Air’s proposal and will codeshare if they get chosen for Plattsburgh, they didn't however mention Silver who they also are partners with.

Buffalomatt1027 · Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:54 am

https://buffalonews.com/2020/01/28/schu ... francisco/

Schumer is pushing for BUF- SF direct flight service. This could be big for the airport! Buffalo is definitely on the verge becoming a mini tech hub.

tphuang · Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:00 am

I can't see B6 doing BUF-SFO. i took a look at PDEW numbers. It's a lot lower than BUF-LA area. If anyone does it, it would have to be UA.

Halophila · Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:04 am

How about ITH-ORD or ITH-ATL?

bellcc · Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:11 pm

Halophila wrote:
How about ITH-ORD or ITH-ATL?

I could see ITH-ORD on United or American, but definitely not both. Atlanta would be tough, but now that the new terminal is completed Delta may consider it. I do not expect Delta to use anything bigger than a CRJ-700 on that route though.

maximairways · Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:26 am

tphuang wrote:
I can't see B6 doing BUF-SFO. i took a look at PDEW numbers. It's a lot lower than BUF-LA area. If anyone does it, it would have to be UA.

Don't forget induced demand by a non stop.

For example, looking at Q3 2015, LAX PDEW was 141. In the same time frame 2019, it is up to 252 PDEW.
SFO: 2015 Q3, 121 PDEW and it is the same in 2019.
SJC and OAK are at 37 and 30 respectively for Q3 2019.

I was curious in this same time frame to see the top PDEW growth. LAX sits pretty at #3.

Dest 2015 2019 %Growth
AUS 51 106 108%
IAD 35 63 80%
LAX 141 252 79%
EWR 108 169 58%
BNA 47 70 49%
ATL 189 261 38%
DEN 120 165 37%
DAL 29 39 36%
RDU 84 115 36%
MCI 29 39 35%

tphuang · Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:36 am

the problem with BUF-SFO is that it's also quite seasonal. I'd think BUF-LAS would have a better chance of success if B6 launched it. Depending purely on O&D is a little tough in a market like this.

BatonOps · Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:01 am

Halophila wrote:
How about ITH-ORD or ITH-ATL?

I've been waiting to see if AA or UA adds ITH-ORD. ITH-ATL would be another good route. I've been waiting for service additions now that the terminal renovations are complete.

SYRAVGEEK · Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:49 pm

SYR Amazon Air, Amazon is building a distribution center in N. Syracuse. Will Amazon annouce service to SYR or just drive to ROC (Which has DHL)

bellcc · Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:51 pm

SYRAVGEEK wrote:
SYR Amazon Air, Amazon is building a distribution center in N. Syracuse. Will Amazon annouce service to SYR or just drive to ROC (Which has DHL)

The proposed distribution center in Syracuse is supposed to be the second largest in the world. I do not imagine they would be willing to truck thousands of packages all the way to Rochester. KSYR has a lot of space for DHL/Amazon if they want to expand the current cargo terminal and/or build a new one.

SYRAVGEEK · Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:01 am

I would image that. We did have DHL for a while back in the early 2000's using DC-9s but I don't remember where they flew.

KCZG · Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:56 am

BGM is having an airshow on July 25th.

https://wbng.com/2020/01/31/greater-bin ... -air-show/

Still just 2 flights a day to DTW on OO until Spring when it goes back to 3. I keep hoping AA or UA return, but with the Dash 8s and Saab 340s gone, it sadly seems unlikely.

CHOWahoo · Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:17 am

KCZG wrote:
BGM is having an airshow on July 25th.

https://wbng.com/2020/01/31/greater-bin ... -air-show/

Still just 2 flights a day to DTW on OO until Spring when it goes back to 3. I keep hoping AA or UA return, but with the Dash 8s and Saab 340s gone, it sadly seems unlikely.

Is that EAS or at-risk?

SYRAVGEEK · Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:28 am

BGM is more populated than ITH& ELM yet it has the least amount of service

SYRAVGEEK · Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:59 am

*Of the southern tier

SYRAVGEEK · Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:00 pm

cosyr wrote:
Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I would like SYR-YYZ back however I imagine SYR-DFW is more likely than both of them

teneriffe77 · Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:14 pm

As far as DHL from SYR that was a former ABX route to Wilmington, Ohio. The reason BGM has less air service is due to a number of factors like Rt. 81 which makes getting to both AVP and SYR both of which have more air service, a lot easier. The airport itself is in an out of the way location and not connected to any major highways unlike ITH and ELM which have major roads going by them. In the past a lot of BGM's flights were ones that didn't go too far like NYC or BUF but those flights are long gone and people are price sensitive and people are more willing to drive farther to get a better air fare.

SYRAVGEEK · Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:10 am

teneriffe77 wrote:
As far as DHL from SYR that was a former ABX route to Wilmington, Ohio. The reason BGM has less air service is due to a number of factors like Rt. 81 which makes getting to both AVP and SYR both of which have more air service, a lot easier. The airport itself is in an out of the way location and not connected to any major highways unlike ITH and ELM which have major roads going by them. In the past a lot of BGM's flights were ones that didn't go too far like NYC or BUF but those flights are long gone and people are price sensitive and people are more willing to drive farther to get a better air fare.

I always remember how all my relatives were shocked when I told them that ELM and ITH have more service than BGM, I think the main reason is because of IBM being based in Binghamton, which, would make you think that they would have a higher business demand. I do understand how BGM is an out-of-the-way airport (My uncle flew through there a few years ago and said that it he was splitting hairs trying to get on 81).

crjflyboy · Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:24 am

Southern Airways Express exploring BUF - ALB service ....

https://www.timesunion.com/business/art ... 026785.php

2 hours in a Cessna Grand Caravan ? I don't think so ...

SYRAVGEEK · Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:46 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Southern Airways Express exploring BUF - ALB service ....

https://www.timesunion.com/business/art ... 026785.php

2 hours in a Cessna Grand Caravan ? I don't think so ...

I miss onejet

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:39 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
Southern Airways Express exploring BUF - ALB service ....

https://www.timesunion.com/business/art ... 026785.php

2 hours in a Cessna Grand Caravan ? I don't think so ...

The flight will take 2hrs, and sometimes you have to get to the airport 2hrs in advanced? Unless they can find a way to get around the security checkpoint I don’t see it working.

The carrier is 9-seats or less, they can opt out of TSA security if they wish but if they plan on operating out of a terminal they will be required to. A lot of Southern Air Express destinations in the gulf and southeast don’t have security checkpoint as they operate out of FBO buildings.

Interesting that they also want to begin ALB-PIT/BOS as well.

crjflyboy · Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:34 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Southern Airways Express exploring BUF - ALB service ....

https://www.timesunion.com/business/art ... 026785.php

2 hours in a Cessna Grand Caravan ? I don't think so ...

The flight will take 2hrs, and sometimes you have to get to the airport 2hrs in advanced? Unless they can find a way to get around the security checkpoint I don’t see it working.

The carrier is 9-seats or less, they can opt out of TSA security if they wish but if they plan on operating out of a terminal they will be required to. A lot of Southern Air Express destinations in the gulf and southeast don’t have security checkpoint as they operate out of FBO buildings.

Interesting that they also want to begin ALB-PIT/BOS as well.

No it wont work, ALB - PIT will be an even longer flight ... ALB - BOS .. If Cape Air could not make it work, how could Southern ?

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:40 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Southern Airways Express exploring BUF - ALB service ....

https://www.timesunion.com/business/art ... 026785.php

2 hours in a Cessna Grand Caravan ? I don't think so ...

The flight will take 2hrs, and sometimes you have to get to the airport 2hrs in advanced? Unless they can find a way to get around the security checkpoint I don’t see it working.

The carrier is 9-seats or less, they can opt out of TSA security if they wish but if they plan on operating out of a terminal they will be required to. A lot of Southern Air Express destinations in the gulf and southeast don’t have security checkpoint as they operate out of FBO buildings.

Interesting that they also want to begin ALB-PIT/BOS as well.

No it wont work, ALB - PIT will be an even longer flight ... ALB - BOS .. If Cape Air could not make it work, how could Southern ?

I could see them starting it, but then stopping it soon after.

crjflyboy · Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:50 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

The flight will take 2hrs, and sometimes you have to get to the airport 2hrs in advanced? Unless they can find a way to get around the security checkpoint I don’t see it working.

The carrier is 9-seats or less, they can opt out of TSA security if they wish but if they plan on operating out of a terminal they will be required to. A lot of Southern Air Express destinations in the gulf and southeast don’t have security checkpoint as they operate out of FBO buildings.

Interesting that they also want to begin ALB-PIT/BOS as well.

No it wont work, ALB - PIT will be an even longer flight ... ALB - BOS .. If Cape Air could not make it work, how could Southern ?

I could see them starting it, but then stopping it soon after.

Southern has a history of that behavior ... PIT - AVP grand announcement of new service ... only to vanish a few months later without a word

https://flyavp.com/news/southern-airway ... nsylvania/

Anything over 45 minutes on those ice prone birds is bordering on torture

SYRAVGEEK · Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:23 pm

Southern operating in upstate is suicide mainly due to the cold temperatures which will destroy the 208s

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:52 pm

SYRAVGEEK wrote:
Southern operating in upstate is suicide mainly due to the cold temperatures which will destroy the 208s

That is very well possible, but isn’t that the case for Cape Air Cessna 402’s which operate fine in the cold conditions in the northeast.

crjflyboy · Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:06 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
SYRAVGEEK wrote:
Southern operating in upstate is suicide mainly due to the cold temperatures which will destroy the 208s

That is very well possible, but isn’t that the case for Cape Air Cessna 402’s which operate fine in the cold conditions in the northeast.

402's do not have the history of icing issues that the Grand Caravan does

WeatherPilot · Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:02 pm

9K does BOS-SLK and that’s almost 2 hours, so maybe BUF-ALB on the 208 may work. I think Boutique would have a better shot with the PC12 though if we had a choice of small operators.

crjflyboy · Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:11 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
9K does BOS-SLK and that’s almost 2 hours, so maybe BUF-ALB on the 208 may work. I think Boutique would have a better shot with the PC12 though if we had a choice of small operators.

SLK is EAS service, we are talking about a completely different scenario with a well maintained super highway connecting BUF and ALB.

When ONEJET flew the route, they only averaged 15 pax each way on every flight ... the market is very thin .. it exists, for a 19 passenger aircraft 1900 or Jetstream type plane.

SyracuseAvGeek · Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:33 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
9K does BOS-SLK and that’s almost 2 hours, so maybe BUF-ALB on the 208 may work. I think Boutique would have a better shot with the PC12 though if we had a choice of small operators.

BOS-SLK is scheduled at 1hr 38min on booking websites, I have flown that route and it actually only took about 1hr 20min . Plus it was torture as it was just about 100F/37C outside and it felt like I was like sitting in an oven. That being said SLK-BOS also doesn’t have to compete with the NY thru-way like BUF-ALB would.

I do agree that Boutique would be a better option as the PC12 is faster and can cruise at a higher altitude than the C208

cosyr · Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:56 pm

I hope we can see some upstate service return once the Cessna 408 SkyCourier gets flying. Obviously there are a lot of ifs there. No pax airlines have ordered it yet, and did airlines like Air Canada end service because the 1900's needed to go, or because 19 seats will never be economical again?

19 seat aircraft have been flying around the US for decades, so it seems ironic that now that more people are flying than ever before, they can't fill these planes anymore.

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