cosyr wrote:

19 seat aircraft have been flying around the US for decades, so it seems ironic that now that more people are flying than ever before, they can't fill these planes anymore.

Nobody is going to fly 19-seat airplanes in scheduled service under Part 121. It can be done as a public charter under Part 135, but it won't be with a new airplane.

Speaking of new 19 seat aircraft to replace the 1900 whatever happened to the Evektor EV-55?

cosyr wrote:

I hope we can see some upstate service return once the Cessna 408 SkyCourier gets flying. Obviously there are a lot of ifs there. No pax airlines have ordered it yet, and did airlines like Air Canada end service because the 1900's needed to go, or because 19 seats will never be economical again?

19 seat aircraft have been flying around the US for decades, so it seems ironic that now that more people are flying than ever before, they can't fill these planes anymore.

After the COLGAN 3407 crash, everything changed. Congress in their infinite wisdom killed the 19 PAX aircraft. They fixed an issue, that did not exist.

19 PAX aircraft MUST be 121 certified carriers now ... the expense to be a 121 carrier are double what a 135 carrier is, some have said it's triple what is used to be.

I see ZERO interest from USA airlines in the Cessna plane ... once again Cessna refused to listen to the small regionals.

https://www.flyingmag.com/safety/accide ... lgan-3407/

Actually the 121 requirement came after the American Eagle Jetstream crash in Raleigh in the mid-1990s. The Colgan accident resulted in the ATP requirement for both seats on 121 operations. That was the last nail in the coffin.

WeatherPilot wrote:

Speaking of new 19 seat aircraft to replace the 1900 whatever happened to the Evektor EV-55?

The EV - 55 is 9 seat for the USA, or 14 seat bird for those countries that will allow it.

The new CEO took a tangent and wanted to explore making the plane a hybrid electric for a while.

http://konference.org/vyvoj_leteckeho_p ... chtold.pdf

The board of directors and China banks forced him to put that on the back burner and get the plane certified and ready for production.

It appears this is the year ... we'll see.

https://www.magzter.com/article/Flying- ... ation-2020

https://www.airalbatrosgroup.com/assets ... ch2010.pdf

The CEO'S head is on the line, get it certified or pack your box and leave quietly.

cosyr wrote:

I hope we can see some upstate service return once the Cessna 408 SkyCourier gets flying. Obviously there are a lot of ifs there. No pax airlines have ordered it yet, and did airlines like Air Canada end service because the 1900's needed to go, or because 19 seats will never be economical again?

19 seat aircraft have been flying around the US for decades, so it seems ironic that now that more people are flying than ever before, they can't fill these planes anymore.

I would bet that the Skymaster will attract a lot of attention with C5, but it wouldn't be like C5's 1900 that were flying ALB-BUF, ALB-SYR, ALB-CLE, ALB-ROC, etc. however i have no way of proving that so it might happen.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

cosyr wrote:

I hope we can see some upstate service return once the Cessna 408 SkyCourier gets flying. Obviously there are a lot of ifs there. No pax airlines have ordered it yet, and did airlines like Air Canada end service because the 1900's needed to go, or because 19 seats will never be economical again?

19 seat aircraft have been flying around the US for decades, so it seems ironic that now that more people are flying than ever before, they can't fill these planes anymore.

I would bet that the Skymaster will attract a lot of attention with C5, but it wouldn't be like C5's 1900 that were flying ALB-BUF, ALB-SYR, ALB-CLE, ALB-ROC, etc. however i have no way of proving that so it might happen.

C5 is owned by United, United isn't interested in props.

I get that Albany is quite small and BUF is no large town, but I am shocked there isn't a greater demand for ALB-BUF.

US was running mainline on the route up until the late 90s, and even after had a decent schedule on Dash-8s. Its a little over a 4 hour drive, and you can't really realistically make a day trip without leaving in the early morning. I doubt that new airport regulations specifying that pax show up early killed it, plus you can literally show up 30 minutes prior to departure at ALB/BUF without bags because the security lines are rarely long.

I'm surprised WN didn't try the route out when they entered both ALB and BUF in 2000. While they would never get into the route today, I am just surprised the demand is that low.

USAirALB wrote:

I get that Albany is quite small and BUF is no large town, but I am shocked there isn't a greater demand for ALB-BUF.

US was running mainline on the route up until the late 90s, and even after had a decent schedule on Dash-8s. Its a little over a 4 hour drive, and you can't really realistically make a day trip without leaving in the early morning. I doubt that new airport regulations specifying that pax show up early killed it, plus you can literally show up 30 minutes prior to departure at ALB/BUF without bags because the security lines are rarely long.

I'm surprised WN didn't try the route out when they entered both ALB and BUF in 2000. While they would never get into the route today, I am just surprised the demand is that low.

one has to factor in now the drive to the airport, get into the terminal, go thru screening, get to your gate 15 - 30 minutes before boarding, be on the plane 10 minutes before they lock the door ... how much time are you really saving when it's all factored in ?

Not much ... if any

When did American Eagle discontinue the PBG-JFK flight?

Just saw the load factors for a one-off SYR-SLC route from late November 2011:
79% on an A319, needless to say, I was surprised

I don’t believe they did it in November of 2011. But they did it in 2014 and that’s the load factor for it

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Just saw the load factors for a one-off SYR-SLC route from late November 2011:
79% on an A319, needless to say, I was surprised

I don’t believe they did it in November of 2011. But they did it in 2014 and that’s the load factor for it

Oh, I must've read the date wrong lol

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Oh, I must've read the date wrong lol

You said you must’ve read the date wrong for the load factors. You can’t search the load factors unless you know the exact month. By any chance did someone send you that on an Instagram DM?

I knew it was you!

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

I knew it was you!

who is this?

Jed

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

cosyr wrote:

Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

AC is highly unlikely to return to Upstate NY as the half dozen remaining DH1s have all been moved out west and will all be retiring at the end of 2020 in all likelihood. Going from 19 to 50 seaways would be a huge jump.

The days of EA L-1011s on YYZ-BUF or PI/US 737s and DC-9s (or Empire F28s!) on YOW-SYR (due to pre-Open Skies) are long gone.

The only remaining 1900s with AC are with Tier III partner EVAS in Atlantic Canada...and even there AC insist on unbranded aircraft since all the other 1900s went bye bye.

Dominion301 wrote:

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

cosyr wrote:

Houston would be interesting, but I want Toronto back.

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

AC is highly unlikely to return to Upstate NY as the half dozen remaining DH1s have all been moved out west and will all be retiring at the end of 2020 in all likelihood. Going from 19 to 50 seaways would be a huge jump.

The days of EA L-1011s on YYZ-BUF or PI/US 737s and DC-9s (or Empire F28s!) on YOW-SYR (due to pre-Open Skies) are long gone.

The only remaining 1900s with AC are with Tier III partner EVAS in Atlantic Canada...and even there AC insists on unbranded aircraft since all the other 1900s went bye-bye.

The only way an upstate city could get ANY Canadian service is if WJ moved some of their Saabs to YYZ or if a US carrier brought back some smaller aircraft and (Of all the places on the east coast decided they'd operate out of upstate to Canada. Both would be nothing short of a miracle.

crjflyboy wrote:

WeatherPilot wrote:

9K does BOS-SLK and that’s almost 2 hours, so maybe BUF-ALB on the 208 may work. I think Boutique would have a better shot with the PC12 though if we had a choice of small operators.

SLK is EAS service, we are talking about a completely different scenario with a well maintained super highway connecting BUF and ALB.

When ONEJET flew the route, they only averaged 15 pax each way on every flight ... the market is very thin .. it exists, for a 19 passenger aircraft 1900 or Jetstream type plane.

One Jet had the right plane for the job .... just not enough interest in the route,

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

crjflyboy wrote:

WeatherPilot wrote:

9K does BOS-SLK and that’s almost 2 hours, so maybe BUF-ALB on the 208 may work. I think Boutique would have a better shot with the PC12 though if we had a choice of small operators.

SLK is EAS service, we are talking about a completely different scenario with a well maintained super highway connecting BUF and ALB.

When ONEJET flew the route, they only averaged 15 pax each way on every flight ... the market is very thin .. it exists, for a 19 passenger aircraft 1900 or Jetstream type plane.

One Jet had the right plane for the job .... just not enough interest in the route,

ONEJET should have pushed on to Providence with ALB being the midpoint stop ... Both BUF and ALB want service to Providence ...

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

I want Toronto back as well, thanks to issue is that now the smallest aircraft is the Dash-8~100 which seat around 30ish. The Beech-1900 only held 19 and even then it had a load factor on average of only 60%

AC is highly unlikely to return to Upstate NY as the half dozen remaining DH1s have all been moved out west and will all be retiring at the end of 2020 in all likelihood. Going from 19 to 50 seaways would be a huge jump.

The days of EA L-1011s on YYZ-BUF or PI/US 737s and DC-9s (or Empire F28s!) on YOW-SYR (due to pre-Open Skies) are long gone.

The only remaining 1900s with AC are with Tier III partner EVAS in Atlantic Canada...and even there AC insists on unbranded aircraft since all the other 1900s went bye-bye.

The only way an upstate city could get ANY Canadian service is if WJ moved some of their Saabs to YYZ or if a US carrier brought back some smaller aircraft and (Of all the places on the east coast decided they'd operate out of upstate to Canada. Both would be nothing short of a miracle.

Yeah the last time it happened was the short-lived Commutair ALB hub that served YOW and YUL circa 2005. Unfortunately it no longer exists for a reason.

Contour Airlines announced IND focus city and the first three routes from the city. Also on the map there are dotted lines of cities they hope to add in the future, it looks like IND-BUF is one of the dotted lines.

Any thoughts on the possible future BUF-IND?

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

Contour Airlines announced IND focus city and the first three routes from the city. Also on the map there are dotted lines of cities they hope to add in the future, it looks like IND-BUF is one of the dotted lines.

Any thoughts on the possible future BUF-IND?

Probably will never happen. I do remember Allegheny Airlines flying it for quite some time I believe in the 70’s and eighties twice daily with DC9’s when BUF had roughly 70 daily flights from the growing local service carrier.

On ALB-BUF, important to think about the cultural, economic and political flows in Upstate NY and to New York City.

Albany has had a closer connection to New York City than to its Upstate NY brethren for many years. The train, bus and rail flows to New York are significant for business, political and cultural reasons, while the economic ties along the Erie Canal corridor are less significant to Albany. Albany feels a bit more ‘New York City’ than western New York cities – Rochester and Buffalo are a bit more midwestern culturally, attitudinally. People in Albany look south to New York, as opposed to west to Rochester and Buffalo.

In addition, Albany is the state capital, meaning a fair amount of movement of people to/from it may involve political purposes. For state workers, local government workers and even businesses, it’s hard to justify the cost of flying to/from Albany.

Finally, Albany is largely suburban, meaning someone flying into ALB is likely to need a taxi or rental car to get somewhere – adding cost and time. It’s easier to drive yourself.

All that means that there’s simply much less demand for air travel across the state.

MikeMidd2001 wrote:

On ALB-BUF, important to think about the cultural, economic and political flows in Upstate NY and to New York City.

Albany has had a closer connection to New York City than to its Upstate NY brethren for many years. The train, bus and rail flows to New York are significant for business, political and cultural reasons, while the economic ties along the Erie Canal corridor are less significant to Albany. Albany feels a bit more ‘New York City’ than western New York cities – Rochester and Buffalo are a bit more midwestern culturally, attitudinally. People in Albany look south to New York, as opposed to west to Rochester and Buffalo.

In addition, Albany is the state capital, meaning a fair amount of movement of people to/from it may involve political purposes. For state workers, local government workers and even businesses, it’s hard to justify the cost of flying to/from Albany.

Finally, Albany is largely suburban, meaning someone flying into ALB is likely to need a taxi or rental car to get somewhere – adding cost and time. It’s easier to drive yourself.

All that means that there’s simply much less demand for air travel across the state.

Now I see where you're coming from (that's what she said), but there has to be SOME demand for a flight from the state capital to the largest city in Upstate NY.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

MikeMidd2001 wrote:

On ALB-BUF, important to think about the cultural, economic and political flows in Upstate NY and to New York City.

Albany has had a closer connection to New York City than to its Upstate NY brethren for many years. The train, bus and rail flows to New York are significant for business, political and cultural reasons, while the economic ties along the Erie Canal corridor are less significant to Albany. Albany feels a bit more ‘New York City’ than western New York cities – Rochester and Buffalo are a bit more midwestern culturally, attitudinally. People in Albany look south to New York, as opposed to west to Rochester and Buffalo.

In addition, Albany is the state capital, meaning a fair amount of movement of people to/from it may involve political purposes. For state workers, local government workers and even businesses, it’s hard to justify the cost of flying to/from Albany.

Finally, Albany is largely suburban, meaning someone flying into ALB is likely to need a taxi or rental car to get somewhere – adding cost and time. It’s easier to drive yourself.

All that means that there’s simply much less demand for air travel across the state.

Now I see where you're coming from (that's what she said), but there has to be SOME demand for a flight from the state capital to the largest city in Upstate NY.

One Jet averaged like 15 passengers a flight ......... that is not much of a demand.

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

MikeMidd2001 wrote:

On ALB-BUF, important to think about the cultural, economic and political flows in Upstate NY and to New York City.

Albany has had a closer connection to New York City than to its Upstate NY brethren for many years. The train, bus and rail flows to New York are significant for business, political and cultural reasons, while the economic ties along the Erie Canal corridor are less significant to Albany. Albany feels a bit more ‘New York City’ than western New York cities – Rochester and Buffalo are a bit more midwestern culturally, attitudinally. People in Albany look south to New York, as opposed to west to Rochester and Buffalo.

In addition, Albany is the state capital, meaning a fair amount of movement of people to/from it may involve political purposes. For state workers, local government workers and even businesses, it’s hard to justify the cost of flying to/from Albany.

Finally, Albany is largely suburban, meaning someone flying into ALB is likely to need a taxi or rental car to get somewhere – adding cost and time. It’s easier to drive yourself.

All that means that there’s simply much less demand for air travel across the state.

Now I see where you're coming from (that's what she said), but there has to be SOME demand for a flight from the state capital to the largest city in Upstate NY.

One Jet averaged like 15 passengers a flight ......... that is not much of a demand.

Agreed, Had Countour served that route and used their jetstream 31's that would be a different story, but contour didn't and no one asked me.

The founder of Jetblue just announced Breeze airways, a new airline targeted towards mid-sized city pairs that do not currently have non-stop service to each other.

Do you think that any of the four upstate airports have a chance of seeing new destinations with breeze?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnn.co ... index.html

bellcc wrote:

The founder of Jetblue just announced Breeze airways, a new airline targeted towards mid-sized city pairs that do not currently have non-stop service to each other.

Do you think that any of the four upstate airports have a chance of seeing new destinations with breeze?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnn.co ... index.html

Breeze should definitely look at BUF / BNIA. He built jetblue with the BUF-JFK as one of the original routes.

bellcc wrote:

The founder of Jetblue just announced Breeze airways, a new airline targeted towards mid-sized city pairs that do not currently have non-stop service to each other.

Do you think that any of the four upstate airports have a chance of seeing new destinations with breeze?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnn.co ... index.html

I could see BUF-SLC or BUF-IAH

Several routes seem to me candidates for subweekly service at ROC. I remain surprised that we do not have Frontier.

ROC-DEN 2x weekly
ROC-FLL 2x-4x weekly (I think ROC could support more than the 1x weekly WN winter seasonal)
ROC-LAX 2x-4x weekly
ROC-LAS 2x weekly (AirTran was running I think 3x weekly before the 2008 financial crisis)
ROC-MYR 2x weekly (winter-spring break seasonal)

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Several routes seem to me candidates for subweekly service at ROC. I remain surprised that we do not have Frontier.

ROC-DEN 2x weekly
ROC-FLL 2x-4x weekly (I think ROC could support more than the 1x weekly WN winter seasonal)
ROC-LAX 2x-4x weekly
ROC-LAS 2x weekly (AirTran was running I think 3x weekly before the 2008 financial crisis)
ROC-MYR 2x weekly (winter-spring break seasonal)

F9 or any airline (other than the legacies) have no intrest in serving the straight line of airports (BUF ROC SYR ALB) thats one of the reasons SYR doesnt have WN (other than them merging with Airtran and staying @ ROC)

However, those are some good lookin' routes

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Several routes seem to me candidates for subweekly service at ROC. I remain surprised that we do not have Frontier.

ROC-DEN 2x weekly
ROC-FLL 2x-4x weekly (I think ROC could support more than the 1x weekly WN winter seasonal)
ROC-LAX 2x-4x weekly
ROC-LAS 2x weekly (AirTran was running I think 3x weekly before the 2008 financial crisis)
ROC-MYR 2x weekly (winter-spring break seasonal)

F9 or any airline (other than the legacies) have no intrest in serving the straight line of airports (BUF ROC SYR ALB) thats one of the reasons SYR doesnt have WN (other than them merging with Airtran and staying @ ROC)

Allegiant doesn't seem to mind flying to many small markets in a similar geographic region. For only a few days a week, F9 could serve all of the cities twice a week on different days, and it would similar to serving one city daily, but serve a much wider region, population and catch the people who are looking for convenience over willingness to drive.

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Several routes seem to me candidates for subweekly service at ROC. I remain surprised that we do not have Frontier.

ROC-DEN 2x weekly
ROC-FLL 2x-4x weekly (I think ROC could support more than the 1x weekly WN winter seasonal)
ROC-LAX 2x-4x weekly
ROC-LAS 2x weekly (AirTran was running I think 3x weekly before the 2008 financial crisis)
ROC-MYR 2x weekly (winter-spring break seasonal)

F9 or any airline (other than the legacies) have no intrest in serving the straight line of airports (BUF ROC SYR ALB) thats one of the reasons SYR doesnt have WN (other than them merging with Airtran and staying @ ROC)

I agree with the fact no airline besides the legacies will serve the line of airports. The only way I could see WN serving SYR is if they discontinue ROC first.

cosyr wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

Several routes seem to me candidates for subweekly service at ROC. I remain surprised that we do not have Frontier.

ROC-DEN 2x weekly
ROC-FLL 2x-4x weekly (I think ROC could support more than the 1x weekly WN winter seasonal)
ROC-LAX 2x-4x weekly
ROC-LAS 2x weekly (AirTran was running I think 3x weekly before the 2008 financial crisis)
ROC-MYR 2x weekly (winter-spring break seasonal)

F9 or any airline (other than the legacies) have no interest in serving the straight line of airports (BUF ROC SYR ALB) that's one of the reasons SYR doesn't have WN (other than them merging with Airtran and staying @ ROC)

Allegiant doesn't seem to mind flying to many small markets in a similar geographic region. For only a few days a week, F9 could serve all of the cities twice a week on different days, and it would similar to serving one city daily, but serve a much wider region, population and catch the people who are looking for convenience over willingness to drive.

F9 probably doesn't want to fly out of ROC due to WN and the proximity of SYR (which has 6 F9 routes) and BUF (which has 5 F9 routes), again WN was flying to BUF WAYYYYYY before F9 began BUF service in '18. Upstate airports have a habit of not getting the airline they want until they don't want it anymore which is when the desired airline begins serivce

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Just saw the load factors for a one-off SYR-SLC route from late November 2011:
79% on an A319, needless to say, I was surprised

LOL I worked that flight in SYR...I seem to recall every seat was taken, but the memory isn't what it used to be!

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI/SYR/ABQ/

foxecho wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

Just saw the load factors for a one-off SYR-SLC route from late November 2011:
79% on an A319, needless to say, I was surprised

LOL I worked that flight in SYR...I seem to recall every seat was taken, but the memory isn't what it used to be!

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI/SYR/ABQ/

Do you think it would work as a route? Maybe on an A319 2x or 3x a week?

[quote=Do you think it would work as a route? Maybe on an A319 2x or 3x a week?[/quote]

I certainly do think it would be a justifiable route, my manager was working to make it happen at the time I left there a few months ago... you have to convince people higher than my pay grade for this stuff tho! It took about 5 years of talk to make SYR MSP happen.

Andrew

Flew out of ROC yesterday (February 7th), and as we were taxing to runway 4, I noticed an allegiant airbus on the run-up area near the threshold of 4. It had engine covers on and based on the snow accumulation on it, had been there for a while. Anyone know the story with this bird?

CleSyrRoc wrote:

Flew out of ROC yesterday (February 7th), and as we were taxing to runway 4, I noticed an allegiant Airbus on the run-up area near the threshold of 4. It had engine covers on and based on the snow accumulation on it, had been there for a while. Anyone know the story with this bird?

G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had a little trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.

As far as BUF-ALB goes it's just as easy to drive it or take the train as Amtrak has 3-4 trains each way every day ( I know as I've taken them between SYR and BUF a lot) which is a 4-5 hours journey. With all of the security and need to arrive early before one's flight the time advantage is destroyed. As far as ALB-YYZ, YUL is closer so if your going to connect on AC at YYZ it's just as easy to drive up to YUL and take a domestic flight from there.

teneriffe77 wrote:

As far as BUF-ALB goes it's just as easy to drive it or take the train as Amtrak has 3-4 trains each way every day ( I know as I've taken them between SYR and BUF a lot) which is a 4-5 hours journey. With all of the security and need to arrive early before one's flight the time advantage is destroyed. As far as ALB-YYZ, YUL is closer so if your going to connect on AC at YYZ it's just as easy to drive up to YUL and take a domestic flight from there.

That is why ALB lost AC before SYR, ROC, and MDT

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had a little trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.

I'm sorry that I'm missing your point here - you mean they're Airbus products?

MO11 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had a little trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.

I'm sorry that I'm missing your point here - you mean they're Airbus products?

I'm saying allegiant's maintenance is not as good as UA's or AA's so its not as good in the snow as a C5 E145XR (I do prefer Boeing)

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

MO11 wrote:

SYRAVGEEK wrote:

G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had a little trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.

I'm sorry that I'm missing your point here - you mean they're Airbus products?

I'm saying allegiant's maintenance is not as good as UA's or AA's so its not as good in the snow as a C5 E145XR (I do prefer Boeing)

That is a ridiculous comment. All the airlines have contract maintenance service provider at out stations like ROC. As far as in base maintenance, much of the heavy checks are outsourced over seas or contract hubs like MIA or IND anyway. You may have a small claim that a carrier like AA may in fact perform more frequent or preventive maintenance than a carrier like G4 or NK. However, I think the far larger cause for unreliable aircraft is simply their age and/or complexity, not the skill set of the individual maintenance workers.

[/quote]G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had a little trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.[/quote]

That's got to be one of the dumbest comments on A.net today. Pretty sure their airplanes can handle a little bit of snow and ice.

BatonOps wrote:

G4's planes aren't of high quality so I imagine it had some trouble with the Ice and Snow of upstate NY.[/quote]

[quote/]That's got to be one of the dumbest comments on A.net today. Pretty sure their airplanes can handle a little bit of snow and ice.[/quote]
A little bit is a large understatement, especially in Upstate NY.