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CFRPwingALbody
Posts: 351
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 9:42 am

The Trouw article states that the 500k limit stays until 2024. So no increase until 2024. Beyond 2024 growth of 1-1,5% is allowed, if earned by operating more efficiently and less noisy.
 
Blerg
Posts: 3602
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 10:12 am

I saw some information online that SN will be removing 10 planes while some others refer to 13 aircraft. Which is it in the end? Do we know what planes will leave for sure?
 
777klm
Posts: 553
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 10:56 am

Blerg wrote:
I saw some information online that SN will be removing 10 planes while some others refer to 13 aircraft. Which is it in the end? Do we know what planes will leave for sure?


From 54 down to 38 aircraft, so 16 in total.

https://press.brusselsairlines.com/brus ... te-creeren
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
Jetty
Posts: 1223
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 11:01 am

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I thought I explained it clearly. The 500k is for commercial flights only. But the number of commercial flights (500k) is based on a sound contour and all flights to an airport.
If planes become less noisy the amount of commercial flights can grow. Or the permitted noise emissions are increased.
I think, before Covid-19; the increase from 500k to 540k commercial flight was created by allowing more noise. I think that the growth now has to come from operating less noisy.
I know there are more factors determining the permitted amount of commercial flights. But AFAIK noise is one of the more important. ATM planning and emissions are others.

Your explanation is clear but wrong. The number of flights -commercial indeed- allowed since 2008 is a fixed arbitrary number not dependent on noise levels or other factors. The increase in 2008 was based on forecasted noise and emissions levels but that is something else than that it’s adjusted based on those levels. There has been no increase since 2008 or before Covid. 540K was discussed and is now officially planned (but not formal yet).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 12:08 pm

CFRPwingALbody wrote:
I thought I explained it clearly.


AFAIK you are both right and totally wrong. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Blerg
Posts: 3602
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 1:17 pm

777klm wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I saw some information online that SN will be removing 10 planes while some others refer to 13 aircraft. Which is it in the end? Do we know what planes will leave for sure?


From 54 down to 38 aircraft, so 16 in total.

https://press.brusselsairlines.com/brus ... te-creeren


Thank you, so we still don't know which planes will be leaving their fleet?
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11286
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Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 1:38 pm

Blerg wrote:
777klm wrote:
Blerg wrote:
I saw some information online that SN will be removing 10 planes while some others refer to 13 aircraft. Which is it in the end? Do we know what planes will leave for sure?


From 54 down to 38 aircraft, so 16 in total.

https://press.brusselsairlines.com/brus ... te-creeren


Thank you, so we still don't know which planes will be leaving their fleet?


27 destinations will be cut, among them:
Europe: Lanzarote, Madeira, Kos, Sint-Petersburg, Krakau, Warschau, Sevilla, Valencia, Bristol, Hannover, Moskou, Billund, Santorini and Vilnius
Africa: Marrakesh, Ouagadougou and Conakry

3 destination will be added: Frankfurt, München and Zürich

Source

So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Blerg
Posts: 3602
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
777klm wrote:

From 54 down to 38 aircraft, so 16 in total.

https://press.brusselsairlines.com/brus ... te-creeren


Thank you, so we still don't know which planes will be leaving their fleet?


27 destinations will be cut, among them:
Europe: Lanzarote, Madeira, Kos, Sint-Petersburg, Krakau, Warschau, Sevilla, Valencia, Bristol, Hannover, Moskou, Billund, Santorini and Vilnius
Africa: Marrakesh, Ouagadougou and Conakry

3 destination will be added: Frankfurt, München and Zürich

Source

So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.


I have to say that I am shocked that they haven't been flying to FRA, MUC and ZRH! I wonder if some LX and LH flights might get transferred to SN.
 
SeanM1997
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri May 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Luxair to launch Luxembourg - Manchester from 29 June 2020

LUX 1340-1430 MAN (Mon, Wed & Fri)
MAN 1510-1800 LUX (Mon, Wed & Fri)
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri May 22, 2020 9:12 pm

Was Manchester-Luxembourg profitable for Flybe when they were around ?
 
User001
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri May 22, 2020 9:29 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Was Manchester-Luxembourg profitable for Flybe when they were around ?


It was a route that was served until the very end, as well as expanded from 4 weekly to daily in its last year, so, can only use that anecdotal evidence to suggest it was. The fact Luxair are picking up the route, in the midst of this crisis, seem to confirm as such.
 
oldJoe
Posts: 169
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 2:12 am

User001 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Was Manchester-Luxembourg profitable for Flybe when they were around ?


It was a route that was served until the very end, as well as expanded from 4 weekly to daily in its last year, so, can only use that anecdotal evidence to suggest it was. The fact Luxair are picking up the route, in the midst of this crisis, seem to confirm as such.

Luxair is more or less a state owned company. Do they really need a route to Manchester that often ?
 
Blerg
Posts: 3602
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 4:35 am

What plane will they use on this route? Q400? Also are they going for locals or do they also offer transfer options via LUX?
 
User001
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:18 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 7:35 am

oldJoe wrote:
Luxair is more or less a state owned company. Do they really need a route to Manchester that often ?


Given they are starting the route, clearly they do.
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 10:58 am

Blerg wrote:
What plane will they use on this route? Q400? Also are they going for locals or do they also offer transfer options via LUX?


Yes Q400 which makes sense given the capacity Flybe had on the route.

Plenty of expat traffic going back and forth but not sure if offering transfer traffic. Is a shame if not as LUX would be a gem to transfer through.
 
eurotrader85
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 11:02 am

Blerg wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you, so we still don't know which planes will be leaving their fleet?


27 destinations will be cut, among them:
Europe: Lanzarote, Madeira, Kos, Sint-Petersburg, Krakau, Warschau, Sevilla, Valencia, Bristol, Hannover, Moskou, Billund, Santorini and Vilnius
Africa: Marrakesh, Ouagadougou and Conakry

3 destination will be added: Frankfurt, München and Zürich

Source

So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.


I have to say that I am shocked that they haven't been flying to FRA, MUC and ZRH! I wonder if some LX and LH flights might get transferred to SN.


Its a fair point, obviously all LH group now anyway but given ZRH-BRU was possibly the most ridiculously expensive flight on the planet you would have thought SN would have been in there on their metal before.
 
PlaneGeek22
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 11:27 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 11:32 am

Blerg wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you, so we still don't know which planes will be leaving their fleet?


27 destinations will be cut, among them:
Europe: Lanzarote, Madeira, Kos, Sint-Petersburg, Krakau, Warschau, Sevilla, Valencia, Bristol, Hannover, Moskou, Billund, Santorini and Vilnius
Africa: Marrakesh, Ouagadougou and Conakry

3 destination will be added: Frankfurt, München and Zürich

Source

So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.


I have to say that I am shocked that they haven't been flying to FRA, MUC and ZRH! I wonder if some LX and LH flights might get transferred to SN.


Personally I am not surprised. Doesn't make sense to compete like that. However, because of coronavirus, there is more focus on shorter routes because there, demand will come back quicker. So now, more capacity on key business routes are important.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4338
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat May 23, 2020 7:39 pm

eurotrader85 wrote:
Its a fair point, obviously all LH group now anyway but given ZRH-BRU was possibly the most ridiculously expensive flight on the planet you would have thought SN would have been in there on their metal before.

PlaneGeek22 wrote:
Personally I am not surprised. Doesn't make sense to compete like that. However, because of coronavirus, there is more focus on shorter routes because there, demand will come back quicker. So now, more capacity on key business routes are important.

It is a bit disingenuous for Brussels Airlines to trump the opening of these three new destinations because they are not real gains. All Lufthansa group airlines have been told to cooperate in order to minimize overnight stops to the extent possible across their entire European network. Brussels Airlines is opening FRA, ZRH and MUC so Lufthansa and Swiss crew no longer overnight in BRU to operate the first flight out to their respective hubs. At the same time, look for Lufthansa to take over the first flight out to BRU out of German markets where they have a crew base. Swiss should take over the first flight out from GVA to BRU which was previously operated by Brussels Airlines. So no real gain.

Brussels Airlines is also working on rescheduling their flights to Africa (I think delaying departures by about two hours) to give themselves enough time to cut night stops at most European outstations, start their planes and crew from BRU every day and complete a rotation back to BRU in time to connect with their African flights.

As an aside, efforts to minimize night stops are making labor negotiations more difficult as crew will probably see a significant cut in the portion of their income from overnight stops, however it is hard to estimate how much until a schedule is published.... and anything resembling a full schedule isn't going to be published anytime soon.

Dutchy wrote:
So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.

Of the 16 aircraft to be removed (see press release link in a previous post), 5 are CitiJet CRJs (wet lease cancellation), 9 A320s, and 2 A330s.
Between the two of them, I believe that OUA and CKY added up to three weekly frequencies, so if 2 A330s are to be retired, other long-haul destinations will see significant frequency cuts.
 
Blerg
Posts: 3602
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: BeNeLux Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun May 24, 2020 5:19 am

blueflyer wrote:
eurotrader85 wrote:
Its a fair point, obviously all LH group now anyway but given ZRH-BRU was possibly the most ridiculously expensive flight on the planet you would have thought SN would have been in there on their metal before.

PlaneGeek22 wrote:
Personally I am not surprised. Doesn't make sense to compete like that. However, because of coronavirus, there is more focus on shorter routes because there, demand will come back quicker. So now, more capacity on key business routes are important.

It is a bit disingenuous for Brussels Airlines to trump the opening of these three new destinations because they are not real gains. All Lufthansa group airlines have been told to cooperate in order to minimize overnight stops to the extent possible across their entire European network. Brussels Airlines is opening FRA, ZRH and MUC so Lufthansa and Swiss crew no longer overnight in BRU to operate the first flight out to their respective hubs. At the same time, look for Lufthansa to take over the first flight out to BRU out of German markets where they have a crew base. Swiss should take over the first flight out from GVA to BRU which was previously operated by Brussels Airlines. So no real gain.

Brussels Airlines is also working on rescheduling their flights to Africa (I think delaying departures by about two hours) to give themselves enough time to cut night stops at most European outstations, start their planes and crew from BRU every day and complete a rotation back to BRU in time to connect with their African flights.

As an aside, efforts to minimize night stops are making labor negotiations more difficult as crew will probably see a significant cut in the portion of their income from overnight stops, however it is hard to estimate how much until a schedule is published.... and anything resembling a full schedule isn't going to be published anytime soon.

Dutchy wrote:
So based on that, we will see cuts in the A320 fleet and might be 1 A330.

Of the 16 aircraft to be removed (see press release link in a previous post), 5 are CitiJet CRJs (wet lease cancellation), 9 A320s, and 2 A330s.
Between the two of them, I believe that OUA and CKY added up to three weekly frequencies, so if 2 A330s are to be retired, other long-haul destinations will see significant frequency cuts.


Very interesting, thank you for that. So basically it's all about reshuffling and cost cutting in the end.

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