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Nicknuzzii
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PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:29 pm

Why has AA chosen to fly a lot of routes to secondary cities in Europe instead of focusing on the core ones? FRA, MUC, MXP amongst others all seem like obvious routes from a transatlantic gateway, yet none of them are served? Why is this?
 
airlineworker
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:47 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why has AA chosen to fly a lot of routes to secondary cities in Europe instead of focusing on the core ones? FRA, MUC, MXP amongst others all seem like obvious routes from a transatlantic gateway, yet none of them are served? Why is this?


Could be that those cities are already adequately served and secondary cities are a hot item. AA through PHL has a wide selection of routes to Europe and they must be well supported as they continue to operate.
 
wn676
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:11 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why has AA chosen to fly a lot of routes to secondary cities in Europe instead of focusing on the core ones? FRA, MUC, MXP amongst others all seem like obvious routes from a transatlantic gateway, yet none of them are served? Why is this?


It’s likely because the secondary cities perform better than those that you listed. In particular it’s telling just how much FRA and MUC were supported by connections when US was in Star which can now flow over LHR.
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x1234
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:14 pm

AA found a niche by daring to try secondary EU destinations without a non-stop or few non-stops to the USA (BUD, PRG, ATH). Some are seasonal but it seems successful. There is HUGE *A dominance in the German speaking areas of Europe and its lower yield when AA tries it as the FF's stick to *A.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:05 pm

For FRA and MUC specifically, AA has struggled with Germany for decades and it moved the PHL to MUC route to CLT and axed the FRA route entirely. AA has no feed on the FRA/MUC end (they did have a code-share with Air Berlin when it was around and in OW, but Air Berlin ceased flying in October 2017). The PHL to FRA and MUC routes were legacy US routes, which was part of Star Alliance for a long time and thus had feed/connections via LH. PHL's TATL operation is at its core, a legacy US Airways operation that AA has tweaked and expanded in the last few years to include PRG, BUD, BLQ, DBV, and TXL. BLQ did not work and was cut at the end of the 2019 Summer season. Other than PHL-TXL which operated in 2019 4 x per week on a 763 and is coming back for Summer 2020, AA's only other US-Germany routes are from DFW and CLT, the #1 and #2 AA hubs. In the past, AA has operated from ORD to FRA, MUC, TXL, and DUS at various times (TXL was short lived in 1992). In the much distant past, AA flew JFK-FRA for a time until the very early 1990s and attempted MIA-FRA which also didn't pan out.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:13 pm

I think those cities have more flights to North America overall. AA has phl as a major connection hub to Europe. So they can connect some large cities to those "secondary" markets that have non stops to FRA anyway etc
 
N649DL
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:49 pm

I think AA has actually a robust TATL network out of PHL which has somewhat taken over some of the JFK routes and expanded on the successful ex-US routings. The big difference is many TATL routes these days seem to be on Legacy AA 757 and 763. It's also interesting that domestically AA flies those same 763s on PHL-BOS / LAS / CUN as well during downtime.

I wouldn't complain either. AA's PHL hub is arguably about the same in terms of offerings as UA's EWR hub. They consolidated it in the right way, IMHO.
 
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STT757
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:39 pm

N649DL wrote:
I think AA has actually a robust TATL network out of PHL which has somewhat taken over some of the JFK routes and expanded on the successful ex-US routings. The big difference is many TATL routes these days seem to be on Legacy AA 757 and 763. It's also interesting that domestically AA flies those same 763s on PHL-BOS / LAS / CUN as well during downtime.

I wouldn't complain either. AA's PHL hub is arguably about the same in terms of offerings as UA's EWR hub. They consolidated it in the right way, IMHO.


AA is obviously doing well in PHL, their A321XLR order will obviously play big in their plans for PHL.


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cha747
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:15 am

LH flies a daily to FRA - at one time there were 3 daily flights to Germany which was fine when US was part of Star but one flight a day on LH makes more sense
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DLHAM
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:54 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
In the past, AA has operated from ORD to FRA, MUC, TXL, and DUS at various times (TXL was short lived in 1992). In the much distant past, AA flew JFK-FRA for a time until the very early 1990s and attempted MIA-FRA which also didn't pan out.


Also they served JFK-BRU-HAM in 1989 and 1990. Also I think they flew JFK-ZRH-STR for a certain time. MUC was a tag-on from ORD-TXL I think. So they have already served every major Airport in Germany.
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Delta777Jet
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:01 am

American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !
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theasianguy
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:18 am

N649DL wrote:
I wouldn't complain either. AA's PHL hub is arguably about the same in terms of offerings as UA's EWR hub. They consolidated it in the right way, IMHO.


Actually, [email protected] and [email protected] differ quite a bit in terms of destination offerings. UA serves quite a few more destinations from EWR that AA doesn't from PHL.

Here's a comparison.
Both (17): LHR, MAN, EDI, DUB, SNN, CDG, AMS, TXL, ZRH, MAD, BCN, LIS, FCO, VCE, PRG, ATH, KEF
[email protected] only (11): GLA, NCE, BRU, FRA, MUC, ARN, GVA, MXP, NAP, PMO, OPO
[email protected] only (2): BUD, DBV

Additionally, 17/28 [email protected] destinations are year round, while only 8/19 [email protected] destinations are. UA is quite a bit bigger than AA from its primary transatlantic gateway.

The AA experience at PHL is about to get much better when they bring in the 787 to replace the vast majority of former 767 routes.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:43 am

I agree that American Airlines has a wide selection of small and large airports nonstop from PHL
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STT757
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:54 am

Between bringing in the 787s and opening the new Flagship lounge the AA International experience at PHL will be vastly improved in the future.

I like Terminal A West, I flew through there domestically on US Airways 767-200s.


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usflyer msp
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:18 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !


Nonsense. AA is not particularly successful in Germany because most of the traffic has German point-of-sale and they prefer to fly German carriers. This is the case in most Northern European markets. AA does well in Southern and Eastern Europe because most of the traffic has a US point-of-sale and prefers to fly a US carrier. The inflight product has little to do with it.
 
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chepos
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PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:49 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !


PHL-FRA when it last flew was on a 332. How do you know the loads for the summer TXL flights?

And they still serve the German market from CLT and DFW (TXL from PHL), you make it sound like they quit flying to Germany altogether.


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Ishrion
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:04 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019


Oh no. They also increased Philadelphia to Berlin from 4x weekly to daily in Summer 2020! I guess they're setting up for failure. :scratchchin:
 
flyboy7974
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:29 am

Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !


And once again our aviation lesson, full flights don’t equal profit and less than full flights don’t equal money loss. Berlin performed well for the station based on RASM, enough to encourage the airline a daily flight will work, and yes, once again on the 763. While not updated, the 763 is a workhorse and breaking even is easy on the a/c.

The change of MUC from PHL to CLT was primarily driven by our corporate clients and sales dept, those contracts prefer the CLT hub because if the one Eagle connection out of PHL might’ve canceled, they had numerous options out of CLT due to the increased southern banking.

FRA was a loser since moving from Star to OW, that’s a no brainer. From two full flights connecting to a partner to one full flight with minimal connections, it just didn’t work. On the flip, that’s why an empty LHR doesn’t lose money, flown from PHL with the higher BC seating on the A333, we connect to our OW partner and the main cabin can be empty. If BC is full as it is most often, before upgrades even have a chance, it’s a money maker.
 
acentauri
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:39 am

flyboy7974 wrote:
.............................
FRA was a loser since moving from Star to OW, that’s a no brainer. From two full flights connecting to a partner to one full flight with minimal connections, it just didn’t work. On the flip, that’s why an empty LHR doesn’t lose money, flown from PHL with the higher BC seating on the A333, we connect to our OW partner and the main cabin can be empty. If BC is full as it is most often, before upgrades even have a chance, it’s a money maker.

BA has a metal neutral 747 and 787-9 on PHL-LHR, so AA isn't going to lose any $, no matter what they fly.
Further, It's my understanding that the AA German route swap from PHL - CLT was mutually agreed to with LH in exchange for transfering all PHL capacity to LH (with some connection agreements). This can be somewhat confirmed with LH's recent and forthcoming significant capacity upgrade on PHL-FRA from the A340-300 to the 747-400/A340-600.
 
SueD
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:45 am

Think the primary driver for Philadelphia - Europe goes back the US Air and a huge contract with Glaxo Smith Kline Beacham and whilst their have been some draw down particularly in the UK that contract remains quite important to the AA/BA premium cabin and therefore yield potential.

Further in the case of AA they have pretty much focused the JFK TALC Operations toward very high yield point to point and partner hubs in London Madrid and Barcelona and Paris supported by the financial sectors. A Milan service is all that remains from JFK otherwise year round.

Huge delays and limited same airport connections in New York has evidently made the hub and spoke model via JFK /LGA rather weak especially against DELTA And United.

Counter that at Philadelphia AA and Eagle have an extensive network making markets where longer spokes can consolidate and continue to function effective via the hub and spoke business model .

From Philadelphia AA AND Eagle will get you into LGA pretty easily as well.

It pretty much economics 101 at work I suppose.
 
Ishrion
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:52 am

Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?
 
RvA
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:18 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !


Nonsense. AA is not particularly successful in Germany because most of the traffic has German point-of-sale and they prefer to fly German carriers. This is the case in most Northern European markets. AA does well in Southern and Eastern Europe because most of the traffic has a US point-of-sale and prefers to fly a US carrier. The inflight product has little to do with it.


Partially true though product Is very relevant in Aken customer segments so shouldn’t be ignored, it is also related to the destinations AA flies/flew from in the US. Competition on price is fierce so if for the same price someone can connect within Europe to then fly on to the final destination (or of course fly there direct from origin if possible) also makes a big difference. If you offer someone FRA-LHR-SFO or FRA-PHL-SFO at similar price it’s likely the former is often slightly faster but also seen as more comfortable as you arrive at US customs in SFO and off you go to your hotel or whatever. Doing that in PHL first to then go through security again to then have to wait around again before you have to have another few hours of flying isn’t much fun.
 
flflyguy
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:32 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?


Happening to me too.
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Aisak
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:55 pm

RvA wrote:
If you offer someone FRA-LHR-SFO or FRA-PHL-SFO at similar price it’s likely the former is often slightly faster but also seen as more comfortable as you arrive at US customs in SFO and off you go to your hotel or whatever. Doing that in PHL first to then go through security again to then have to wait around again before you have to have another few hours of flying isn’t much fun.


Well, transferring though the UK is not much fun either. You have to reclear security as well at LHR to remain “airside”. And if you have to transfer from T5B/C to AA of some BA services at T3 or vv... not that simple either.
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cedarjet
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:05 pm

Small hubs favour secondary spokes. No one except a crazy person, mileage runner or a.netter is going to fly from Munich to San Francisco, Frankfurt to Houston etc via Philadelphia, they’ll take one of the several nonstops. Whereas an underserved spoke like Budapest or Prague doesn’t have many (or any) nonstops to LA, Seattle, Chicago, Florida, you name it, but I bet those alone are all capable of generating 50 pax per day each way. Your 767 or A330 fills up pretty quickly.
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AAtakeMeAway
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:08 pm

Ishrion wrote:
Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?


Yes... very strange
 
usflyer msp
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:15 pm

RvA wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

American is not successful in Germany because they flew routes with outdated products ( 767 with 90’s interior ) and German Traveller don’t want this ! Quality is always the key factor for German tourists , followed by price ! That’s why Berlin was fairly empty in 2019 , hopefully they will fly with 788 to Berlin in 2020 otherwise they once again will fail in Germany !


Nonsense. AA is not particularly successful in Germany because most of the traffic has German point-of-sale and they prefer to fly German carriers. This is the case in most Northern European markets. AA does well in Southern and Eastern Europe because most of the traffic has a US point-of-sale and prefers to fly a US carrier. The inflight product has little to do with it.


Partially true though product Is very relevant in Aken customer segments so shouldn’t be ignored, it is also related to the destinations AA flies/flew from in the US. Competition on price is fierce so if for the same price someone can connect within Europe to then fly on to the final destination (or of course fly there direct from origin if possible) also makes a big difference. If you offer someone FRA-LHR-SFO or FRA-PHL-SFO at similar price it’s likely the former is often slightly faster but also seen as more comfortable as you arrive at US customs in SFO and off you go to your hotel or whatever. Doing that in PHL first to then go through security again to then have to wait around again before you have to have another few hours of flying isn’t much fun.


No really, point-of-sale is like 95% of the issue. Irregardless of inflight product, the only way AA is going to attract German pax is by being cheap Otherwise, they are going to fly LH.
 
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PW100
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:40 pm

flflyguy wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?


Happening to me too.


It is because of the signature by poster Delta777Jet. The forum database software can't break up the long string in the signature.


Delta777Jet wrote:
American flew ORD - DUS - TXL in 1992 with B-767-200’s !

Delta777Jet, please break up your signature into two or three blocks by adding a space or comma. Thanks!
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LCDFlight
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:00 pm

The thing about hubs is being the best connect point for a profitable # of people. LH covers the USA quite heavily. There are few opportunities to be the BEST itinerary for Americans (let alone Europeans) to Germany unless you are affiliated with LH, as US previously was.

There are dozens of city pairs where the PHL hub does offer the best service between them, or equal to the best.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:17 pm

SueD wrote:
Think the primary driver for Philadelphia - Europe goes back the US Air and a huge contract with Glaxo Smith Kline Beacham and whilst their have been some draw down particularly in the UK that contract remains quite important to the AA/BA premium cabin and therefore yield potential.

Further in the case of AA they have pretty much focused the JFK TALC Operations toward very high yield point to point and partner hubs in London Madrid and Barcelona and Paris supported by the financial sectors. A Milan service is all that remains from JFK otherwise year round.

Huge delays and limited same airport connections in New York has evidently made the hub and spoke model via JFK /LGA rather weak especially against DELTA And United.

Counter that at Philadelphia AA and Eagle have an extensive network making markets where longer spokes can consolidate and continue to function effective via the hub and spoke business model .

From Philadelphia AA AND Eagle will get you into LGA pretty easily as well.

It pretty much economics 101 at work I suppose.


All of AA's JFK TATL routes are served year-round except FCO, which is a seasonal route and has been extended for Spring/Summer 2020 to start earlier. The MAD frequency has been cut back a bit in January-February but otherwise, CDG, LHR, BCN all are daily. Also, it's not "huge delays and limited airport connections" that make the hub/spoke model there weak. AA does not need to flow traffic through JFK to Europe. That's what PHL and to a lesser extent, CLT, are there for. Also, the PHL TATL hub for US was expanded in the mid-1990s and not for GSK. Stephen Wolf was CEO of US at the time and came from UA and had overseen UA's TATL expansion which began in 1990. NY Area originating pax are generally not flying LGA-PHL to then fly to Europe when they have so many nonstop options.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:06 am

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?


Yes... very strange

Mine's normal. Firefox on PC desktop here.

Might be restricted to a certain browser or phone?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:27 am

AA via USAir has a damn sizeable chunk of PHL international flying to couple supplement their international flying out of JFK and CLT. Flying to secondary destinations might well be profitable and diversify their European flying. United is having to diversify some of their international flying aslo as EWR is pretty close to being overloaded. So? Having to split some of it up? Might well be a good thing...
 
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PW100
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:42 am

LAX772LR wrote:
AAtakeMeAway wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Quick question - Is anyone else’s page on this thread being weird? Half of it is cut off and you need to scroll sideways. Or is it just me?


Yes... very strange

Mine's normal. Firefox on PC desktop here.

Might be restricted to a certain browser or phone?

Quite possible.

I'm still having issues on desktop, using Internet Explorer (I know . . . ), MS Edge, Chrome. All having same issue. I'm sure it's a resulot of Delta777Jet signature.

Perhaps it's time to download FF . . .
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Ishrion
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:22 am

PW100 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
AAtakeMeAway wrote:

Yes... very strange

Mine's normal. Firefox on PC desktop here.

Might be restricted to a certain browser or phone?

Quite possible.

I'm still having issues on desktop, using Internet Explorer (I know . . . ), MS Edge, Chrome. All having same issue. I'm sure it's a resulot of Delta777Jet signature.

Perhaps it's time to download FF . . .


It’s glitching on Windows Google Chrome. It’s perfectly fine on my phone’s google.
 
PHXWRLD
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:45 am

PHL is lucky to have the intercontinental service it does. PHX, a similarly sized AA hub sees service to just LHR. We would happily take what you have.
 
lowfareair
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:39 am

acentauri wrote:
Further, It's my understanding that the AA German route swap from PHL - CLT was mutually agreed to with LH in exchange for transfering all PHL capacity to LH (with some connection agreements). This can be somewhat confirmed with LH's recent and forthcoming significant capacity upgrade on PHL-FRA from the A340-300 to the 747-400/A340-600.


That's a pretty interesting claim to make. Any evidence of this collusion that would certainly raise the eyebrows of US and EU anti-trust investigators?
 
N649DL
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:13 pm

theasianguy wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I wouldn't complain either. AA's PHL hub is arguably about the same in terms of offerings as UA's EWR hub. They consolidated it in the right way, IMHO.


Actually, [email protected] and [email protected] differ quite a bit in terms of destination offerings. UA serves quite a few more destinations from EWR that AA doesn't from PHL.

Here's a comparison.
Both (17): LHR, MAN, EDI, DUB, SNN, CDG, AMS, TXL, ZRH, MAD, BCN, LIS, FCO, VCE, PRG, ATH, KEF
[email protected] only (11): GLA, NCE, BRU, FRA, MUC, ARN, GVA, MXP, NAP, PMO, OPO
[email protected] only (2): BUD, DBV

Additionally, 17/28 [email protected] destinations are year round, while only 8/19 [email protected] destinations are. UA is quite a bit bigger than AA from its primary transatlantic gateway.

The AA experience at PHL is about to get much better when they bring in the 787 to replace the vast majority of former 767 routes.


There's 17 overlap routes and quite a few of the EWR routes called out are seasonal like ARN, NCE, and ATH. If you don't factor in all the seasonal summer routes, then they really are quite similar when you think about it.
 
PHXWRLD
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:01 pm

N649DL wrote:
theasianguy wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I wouldn't complain either. AA's PHL hub is arguably about the same in terms of offerings as UA's EWR hub. They consolidated it in the right way, IMHO.


Actually, [email protected] and [email protected] differ quite a bit in terms of destination offerings. UA serves quite a few more destinations from EWR that AA doesn't from PHL.

Here's a comparison.
Both (17): LHR, MAN, EDI, DUB, SNN, CDG, AMS, TXL, ZRH, MAD, BCN, LIS, FCO, VCE, PRG, ATH, KEF
[email protected] only (11): GLA, NCE, BRU, FRA, MUC, ARN, GVA, MXP, NAP, PMO, OPO
[email protected] only (2): BUD, DBV

Additionally, 17/28 [email protected] destinations are year round, while only 8/19 [email protected] destinations are. UA is quite a bit bigger than AA from its primary transatlantic gateway.

The AA experience at PHL is about to get much better when they bring in the 787 to replace the vast majority of former 767 routes.


There's 17 overlap routes and quite a few of the EWR routes called out are seasonal like ARN, NCE, and ATH. If you don't factor in all the seasonal summer routes, then they really are quite similar when you think about it.


EWR has 17 year round routes, PHL has 8. Not sure what you mean
 
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Polot
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:10 pm

PHXWRLD wrote:
PHL is lucky to have the intercontinental service it does. PHX, a similarly sized AA hub sees service to just LHR. We would happily take what you have.

That has more to do with geography than hub size.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7773
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:15 pm

PHL as a TATL hub isn't perfect but it's the best AA can do, acknowledging it can't compete with DL or UA out of NYC (nor UA at ORD, really, on TATL). So, it puts up with fairly low O&D (PHL is weak in O&D for a CSA its size) and makes the best of a bad situation instead of routing traffic thru LHR or foregoing it. Secondary airports in Europe may require connections to many U.S. points, anyway, so AA really isn't at a disadvantage.

It strikes me as really odd that AA would have tried Bologna and Dubrovnik rather than MXP. Maybe they wanted to take a chance with a 'Go where the others don't' route plan.
 
RJLover
Posts: 373
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:41 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:29 pm

Instead of reading a bunch of this speculation here I'd recommend watching/listening to the podcast AA Vice President Ron DeFeo puts together every week or two, Tell Me Why. Episodes S2:E18-E22 all specifically have to do with the goings on at PHL, including a chat with Vasu Raja, the VP of Network and Schedule Planning.

Disclaimer: I have absolutely nothing to do with American Airlines or this podcast. I just love listening to it!
 
N649DL
Posts: 929
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:49 pm

PHXWRLD wrote:
N649DL wrote:
theasianguy wrote:

Actually, [email protected] and [email protected] differ quite a bit in terms of destination offerings. UA serves quite a few more destinations from EWR that AA doesn't from PHL.

Here's a comparison.
Both (17): LHR, MAN, EDI, DUB, SNN, CDG, AMS, TXL, ZRH, MAD, BCN, LIS, FCO, VCE, PRG, ATH, KEF
[email protected] only (11): GLA, NCE, BRU, FRA, MUC, ARN, GVA, MXP, NAP, PMO, OPO
[email protected] only (2): BUD, DBV

Additionally, 17/28 [email protected] destinations are year round, while only 8/19 [email protected] destinations are. UA is quite a bit bigger than AA from its primary transatlantic gateway.

The AA experience at PHL is about to get much better when they bring in the 787 to replace the vast majority of former 767 routes.


There's 17 overlap routes and quite a few of the EWR routes called out are seasonal like ARN, NCE, and ATH. If you don't factor in all the seasonal summer routes, then they really are quite similar when you think about it.


EWR has 17 year round routes, PHL has 8. Not sure what you mean


See the reply "Both" EWR and PHL share 17 routes by destination type only.
 
User avatar
Polot
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Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:02 pm

N649DL wrote:
PHXWRLD wrote:
N649DL wrote:

There's 17 overlap routes and quite a few of the EWR routes called out are seasonal like ARN, NCE, and ATH. If you don't factor in all the seasonal summer routes, then they really are quite similar when you think about it.


EWR has 17 year round routes, PHL has 8. Not sure what you mean


See the reply "Both" EWR and PHL share 17 routes by destination type only.

It’s both. EWR(UA)/PHL(AA) share 17 European destinations. Out of UA/EWR’s 28 European destinations, 17 are year round compared to 8 (out of 19) year round at AA/PHL. Nobody said that the 17 year round destinations are the same 17 shared destinations.

Year round at UA/EWR: AMS, BCN, TXL, BRU, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, FCO, ZRH.

Year around at AA/PHL: AMS, DUB, LHR, MAD, MAN, CDG, FCO, ZRH.
 
PHXWRLD
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:49 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:34 pm

Polot wrote:
PHXWRLD wrote:
PHL is lucky to have the intercontinental service it does. PHX, a similarly sized AA hub sees service to just LHR. We would happily take what you have.

That has more to do with geography than hub size.


No it has to do with one man: Doug Parker.
 
N649DL
Posts: 929
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:53 pm

Polot wrote:
N649DL wrote:
PHXWRLD wrote:

EWR has 17 year round routes, PHL has 8. Not sure what you mean


See the reply "Both" EWR and PHL share 17 routes by destination type only.

It’s both. EWR(UA)/PHL(AA) share 17 European destinations. Out of UA/EWR’s 28 European destinations, 17 are year round compared to 8 (out of 19) year round at AA/PHL. Nobody said that the 17 year round destinations are the same 17 shared destinations.

Year round at UA/EWR: AMS, BCN, TXL, BRU, DUB, EDI, FRA, GVA, LIS, LHR, MAD, MAN, MXP, MUC, CDG, FCO, ZRH.

Year around at AA/PHL: AMS, DUB, LHR, MAD, MAN, CDG, FCO, ZRH.


It's worth nothing that both EWR and PHL TATL destinations have gone through some influx over the years, but have been remarkably consistent for the most part. In fact, both hubs have upgraded quite a few ex-757 and 762 routes to 763 and have leveraged heavy seasonal flying when a route can't work year-round. Even DL at JFK has done the same (while quietly building up BOS TATL flights.)
 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:01 pm

Okay so since I have received a plethora of mostly consistent answers for the original question, I would like to know if it is possible that AA will resume flying to FRA or MUC with the XLR? Or would they also possibly add MXP?
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:41 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL as a TATL hub isn't perfect but it's the best AA can do, acknowledging it can't compete with DL or UA out of NYC (nor UA at ORD, really, on TATL). So, it puts up with fairly low O&D (PHL is weak in O&D for a CSA its size) and makes the best of a bad situation instead of routing traffic thru LHR or foregoing it. Secondary airports in Europe may require connections to many U.S. points, anyway, so AA really isn't at a disadvantage.

It strikes me as really odd that AA would have tried Bologna and Dubrovnik rather than MXP. Maybe they wanted to take a chance with a 'Go where the others don't' route plan.


I would challenge your words and say that AA is using it's assets to its strengths. PHL is a great location for European flights we know that. We also know that AA has roughly 70% of the flights out of PHL. We also know that Philadelphia is the poorest major U.S. city of course the O&D numbers will be weak. Plus it doesn't help that so expensive to fly to Europe originating in PHL. The strength is the regional flights pulling through PHL. MXP I guess don't fit into PHL because well its Philly and not NYC. I'm sure they have data on that.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26157
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:46 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL as a TATL hub isn't perfect but it's the best AA can do, acknowledging it can't compete with DL or UA out of NYC (nor UA at ORD, really, on TATL). So, it puts up with fairly low O&D (PHL is weak in O&D for a CSA its size) and makes the best of a bad situation instead of routing traffic thru LHR or foregoing it. Secondary airports in Europe may require connections to many U.S. points, anyway, so AA really isn't at a disadvantage.

It strikes me as really odd that AA would have tried Bologna and Dubrovnik rather than MXP. Maybe they wanted to take a chance with a 'Go where the others don't' route plan.


How does AA not compete with United out of O’Hare to Europe? It certainly does and has a very impressive, although very seasonal, Chicago-Europe presence.

Milan is a market AA has been serving out of JFK well for a long time and I think it’s been happy keeping it there. Plus PHL’s single biggest feeder for its EU flights is MIA, which is also served year-round on AA metal from Milan. A third daily AA flight in the market is probably overkill.
a.
 
jetsetter629
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:34 am

PHLspecial wrote:
We also know that Philadelphia is the poorest major U.S. city of course the O&D numbers will be weak. Plus it doesn't help that so expensive to fly to Europe originating in PHL. The strength is the regional flights pulling through PHL. MXP I guess don't fit into PHL because well its Philly and not NYC. I'm sure they have data on that.


The city itself (within the limits) might be the poorest but the metro area is far from the poorest in the country. There so much wealth in the western suburbs which easily accounts for O&D.

Although I do agree than anything ex-PHL is VERY expensive. Have flown out of EWR many times to save $$ internationally...
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: PHL’s Transatlantic Routes - Why?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:20 am

MAH4546 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHL as a TATL hub isn't perfect but it's the best AA can do, acknowledging it can't compete with DL or UA out of NYC (nor UA at ORD, really, on TATL). So, it puts up with fairly low O&D (PHL is weak in O&D for a CSA its size) and makes the best of a bad situation instead of routing traffic thru LHR or foregoing it. Secondary airports in Europe may require connections to many U.S. points, anyway, so AA really isn't at a disadvantage.

It strikes me as really odd that AA would have tried Bologna and Dubrovnik rather than MXP. Maybe they wanted to take a chance with a 'Go where the others don't' route plan.


How does AA not compete with United out of O’Hare to Europe? It certainly does and has a very impressive, although very seasonal, Chicago-Europe presence.

Milan is a market AA has been serving out of JFK well for a long time and I think it’s been happy keeping it there. Plus PHL’s single biggest feeder for its EU flights is MIA, which is also served year-round on AA metal from Milan. A third daily AA flight in the market is probably overkill.


I think its clear what he meant... UA is flying to 5, soon 6 year round European destinations from ORD and AA is flying to 1.

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