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N292UX
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Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:10 pm

Welcome to the Minneapolis Aviation Thread for 2020.

Continue discussions from the 2019 thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411923&hilit=minneapolis
 
N292UX
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:17 pm

Some 2020 predictions:
-DL officially can announce MSP-PVG
-DL adds a few Saturday flights. MYR, PNS, AVL, and VPS are all possible.
-SY adds some more seasonal services. Keep an eye on places like SJC/FLL/ORF/JAX/MCI/RNO.
-F9 will add 1, maybe 2 dartboard routes.
-1 new international route to Europe/Central America announced. AM to MEX is possible assuming DL's MSP-MEX flight is profitable. Doubt BA comes in 2020. LH and CM are two possibilities though.
-WestJet adds MSP service through their DL JV. Probably starting with some of their bigger hubs like YYC. DL could possibly add some more flights too.
-AA/WN/UA will stay status quo
-B6 might add a second route from MSP. That may not be announced until later in the year, however.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:29 pm

Who is cm?
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:49 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Who is cm?

Copa Airlines
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:57 pm

N292UX wrote:
Some 2020 predictions:
-AA/WN/UA will stay status quo


While AA re-adding MSP-LAX nonstop service might be a possibility with AA having more market share at LAX than any other airline, I probably do not expect AA to re-add MSP-LAX nonstop service with AA having dropped MSP-LAX nonstop service.

JFK is the only AA hub airport other than LAX that AA doesn't currently serve nonstop from MSP, but I probably do not expect MSP-JFK nonstop service to be added by AA with AA already serving LGA nonstop from MSP, with AA cutting back at JFK, and AA already offering 1-stop international connections from MSP through ORD and PHL.

I agree that UA will stay status quo at MSP with UA already serving ORD, DEN, IAH, SFO, and IAD nonstop from MSP.

WN adding MSP-HOU nonstop service might be a possibility once WN has more planes in its fleet due to WN recently saying that HOU was an expansion priority for WN.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:22 pm

If LH add services it would be likely fra and would they have to it in the next few months.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:23 pm

If LH add services it would be likely fra and would they have to it in the next few months.
 
N292UX
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:11 am

jplatts wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Some 2020 predictions:
-AA/WN/UA will stay status quo

WN adding MSP-HOU nonstop service might be a possibility once WN has more planes in its fleet due to WN recently saying that HOU was an expansion priority for WN.

I'm honestly surprised WN doesn't already serve MSP-HOU. I agree that depending on when the MAX issue gets resolved, WN adding HOU-MSP seems like a possibility
 
Iggy500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:37 pm

I agree that B6 could add more routes from MSP. I'm talking:

JFK: SY switched from JFK to EWR recently, and this route is basically a no-brainier at this point.

MCO: I know that most of you are going to say that this route will not even work, but with the A220 coming soon, B6 could make it happen. We'll have to see for ourselves.

FLL: DL and NK are currently the only carriers operating this route, and WN will join the party this January, but If B6 can do ATL/ORD/CLE-FLL, then they can do MSP-FLL as well.

SJU: DL and SY are the only carriers operating this route. It's possible that B6 could join in with the A220.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:45 pm

I doubt DL will announce MSP PVG. Just because DL announced an intent to serve it does not mean they really plan to serve it. There are about eight different reasons to announce intent to serve, only one of them being they want to serve it. I'm just saying I don't put much stock in what Delta says; only what they do.
 
BAINY3
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:54 pm

Iggy500 wrote:
FLL: DL and NK are currently the only carriers operating this route, and WN will join the party this January

WN has flown MSP-FLL in the past. It's a winter seasonal Saturday flight that primarily caters to cruise traffic. Fares are usually pretty good on it though. Last year I flew that r/t to go on a cruise (the free bag is a huge plus for a long trip like that), and this year I'm taking the same exact flight out for a shorter weekend trip to FLL because the fares are so good, even though I have to go through DAL on the way back since I return on a Tuesday. Would be nice if WN or B6 or somebody enhanced MSP-FLL though, because Saturday-only doesn't cater to people who want to just visit South Florida for less than a week during the winter. We all know the MSP snowbird market is huge in general and I'm sure this route could support at least a Friday and Sunday flight.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:57 pm

MSP-FAT finally happens?
 
Iggy500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:10 am

BAINY3 wrote:
Iggy500 wrote:
FLL: DL and NK are currently the only carriers operating this route, and WN will join the party this January

WN has flown MSP-FLL in the past. It's a winter seasonal Saturday flight that primarily caters to cruise traffic. Fares are usually pretty good on it though. Last year I flew that r/t to go on a cruise (the free bag is a huge plus for a long trip like that), and this year I'm taking the same exact flight out for a shorter weekend trip to FLL because the fares are so good, even though I have to go through DAL on the way back since I return on a Tuesday. Would be nice if WN or B6 or somebody enhanced MSP-FLL though, because Saturday-only doesn't cater to people who want to just visit South Florida for less than a week during the winter. We all know the MSP snowbird market is huge in general and I'm sure this route could support at least a Friday and Sunday flight.


Thanks for the correction. It would be nice to see B6 stepping up to the plate and try the routes that I have previously mentioned. If B6 gives it a shot, this would most likely be B6’s new MSP schedule:

3X BOS
2X FLL
2X JFK
1X MCO
1X SJU (during weekends)
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:02 am

Iggy500 wrote:
BAINY3 wrote:
Iggy500 wrote:
FLL: DL and NK are currently the only carriers operating this route, and WN will join the party this January

WN has flown MSP-FLL in the past. It's a winter seasonal Saturday flight that primarily caters to cruise traffic. Fares are usually pretty good on it though. Last year I flew that r/t to go on a cruise (the free bag is a huge plus for a long trip like that), and this year I'm taking the same exact flight out for a shorter weekend trip to FLL because the fares are so good, even though I have to go through DAL on the way back since I return on a Tuesday. Would be nice if WN or B6 or somebody enhanced MSP-FLL though, because Saturday-only doesn't cater to people who want to just visit South Florida for less than a week during the winter. We all know the MSP snowbird market is huge in general and I'm sure this route could support at least a Friday and Sunday flight.


Thanks for the correction. It would be nice to see B6 stepping up to the plate and try the routes that I have previously mentioned. If B6 gives it a shot, this would most likely be B6’s new MSP schedule:

3X BOS
2X FLL
2X JFK
1X MCO
1X SJU (during weekends)


MSP-JFK will probably happen.

MSP-FLL will probably happen though I doubt it will be more than 1x daily. MSP-SoFla really is not all that big of a market -- not alot of business links between the two cities and Upper Midwesterners tend to vacation on the Gulf Coast of Florida (TPA, RSW) not MIA/FLL/PBI. Good Connectivity to the Caribbean/Latin America will be key to make this work.

MSP-MCO is very doubtful. It has plenty of competition and is almost all MSP point-of-sale which does not play to B6's strengths.

MSP-SJU is almost all Minnesotans going on cruises, DL/SY and their associated cruise/vacation package departments have this well covered. B6 could not make ORD-SJU work despite it being a big VFR/Ethnic market for Boricuas like the East Coast metros.

It would end up being something like 3x MSPBOS, 2x MSPJFK and 1x MSPFLL with an aircraft rotation like:

MSPBOS 545AM 940AM

MSPJFK 645AM 1030AM

BOSMSP 600AM 835AM
MSPFLL 920AM 210PM

JFKMSP 800AM 1020AM
MSPBOS 1105AM 250PM

FLLMSP 1120AM 220PM
MSPJFK 305PM 650PM

BOSMSP 230PM 500PM
MSPBOS 545PM 930PM

JFKMSP 930PM 1200AM RON

BOSMSP 1000PM 1230AM RON
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:06 pm

Agree on the recent post. I can't see MSP-MCO or SJU with B6. When you look at MCO, it's got plenty of DL and SY, along with NK and F9...throw in WN during the winter on Saturday-only (which is a damn joke, IMO).
 
tphuang
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:04 pm

I think if they can find more slots at JFK, msp will happen. Mco and FLL are unlikely the more I look at it.
 
GSPSPOT
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:17 pm

Just a tangential question: Are there any decent views of the ramps or runways from the new hotel recently built onsite at MSP?
Great Lakes, great life.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:58 pm

I'd like to see Westjet Encore add MSP-Thunder Bay, to feed DL's hub at MSP. A couple of years ago, there were rumors that Bearskin Airways was thinking of adding this route, which was flown by Mesaba before the NW/DL merger.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:03 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:
I'd like to see Westjet Encore add MSP-Thunder Bay, to feed DL's hub at MSP. A couple of years ago, there were rumors that Bearskin Airways was thinking of adding this route, which was flown by Mesaba before the NW/DL merger.


I would think Regina would come back before Thunder Bay, but that's just a guess.
From my cold, dead hands
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:52 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
I'd like to see Westjet Encore add MSP-Thunder Bay, to feed DL's hub at MSP. A couple of years ago, there were rumors that Bearskin Airways was thinking of adding this route, which was flown by Mesaba before the NW/DL merger.


I would think Regina would come back before Thunder Bay, but that's just a guess.


I agree 100% about Regina. It would give West Jet passengers in Saskatchewan access to a lot of cities in the US, and I'm sure it wold be popular for people wanting to escape the cold weather.

It's hard to believe that in the 1970s, Northwest regularly flew DC-10s from Winnipeg to MSP, which continued on to Florida, because so many Manitobans were taking Northwest to the sunshine.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:34 pm

Not to nitpick but if DL is going to do MSP-China flights it would be to PKX, not PVG. :D

I don't see another European carrier coming into the MSP market for 2020. But if any other foreign carriers are coming in, most likely they will be announcing soon.

SY will be beefing up MSP,
B6 is probably the most likely existing carrier to start any new service.
F9 will do some more trimming
DL will stay flat
Can't see WS add any service until the MAX issue is resolved.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:17 pm

Looks like EI sent an A330 to MSP today to test things out.
 
CLT704
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:58 pm

Iggy500 wrote:
BAINY3 wrote:
Iggy500 wrote:
FLL: DL and NK are currently the only carriers operating this route, and WN will join the party this January

WN has flown MSP-FLL in the past. It's a winter seasonal Saturday flight that primarily caters to cruise traffic. Fares are usually pretty good on it though. Last year I flew that r/t to go on a cruise (the free bag is a huge plus for a long trip like that), and this year I'm taking the same exact flight out for a shorter weekend trip to FLL because the fares are so good, even though I have to go through DAL on the way back since I return on a Tuesday. Would be nice if WN or B6 or somebody enhanced MSP-FLL though, because Saturday-only doesn't cater to people who want to just visit South Florida for less than a week during the winter. We all know the MSP snowbird market is huge in general and I'm sure this route could support at least a Friday and Sunday flight.


Thanks for the correction. It would be nice to see B6 stepping up to the plate and try the routes that I have previously mentioned. If B6 gives it a shot, this would most likely be B6’s new MSP schedule:

3X BOS
2X FLL
2X JFK
1X MCO
1X SJU (during weekends)


Wow, you guys are really reaching on such a big expansion from B6 imo. All indications from them are pointing toward continued BOS expansion. From the data available online, outside of the summer months, msp doesn't seem to be a stellar station. FLL-MSP, at 1 daily in the winter makes sense. Imo, A220s will really help this station out once they get enough of them.
 
QXatFAT
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:20 am

N292UX wrote:
Some 2020 predictions:
-DL officially can announce MSP-PVG
-DL adds a few Saturday flights. MYR, PNS, AVL, and VPS are all possible.
-SY adds some more seasonal services. Keep an eye on places like SJC/FLL/ORF/JAX/MCI/RNO.
-F9 will add 1, maybe 2 dartboard routes.
-1 new international route to Europe/Central America announced. AM to MEX is possible assuming DL's MSP-MEX flight is profitable. Doubt BA comes in 2020. LH and CM are two possibilities though.
-WestJet adds MSP service through their DL JV. Probably starting with some of their bigger hubs like YYC. DL could possibly add some more flights too.
-AA/WN/UA will stay status quo
-B6 might add a second route from MSP. That may not be announced until later in the year, however.

I don't think CM will move to MSP if they can't get any new 737-MAX9 out of Boeing? Maybe a 2021 plan. If a latin rout is added, it will be by 4O or Y4?

I think at some point FAT can be added in 2020 by DL on an A319.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:34 am

QXatFAT wrote:
I think at some point FAT can be added in 2020 by DL on an A319.


DL also has A220-300 planes on order which will seat 130 passengers (2 fewer passengers than DL's A319's but 6 more passengers than DL's 737-700's). In addition to having similar capacity to the A319 and 737-700 with First Class and Delta Comfort+, the A220-300 also has enough range for routes within the contiguous U.S. (and a longer range than the Boeing 737-700 and 737-800).
 
jrkmsp
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:56 am

lavalampluva wrote:
Not to nitpick but if DL is going to do MSP-China flights it would be to PKX, not PVG. :D

I don't see another European carrier coming into the MSP market for 2020. But if any other foreign carriers are coming in, most likely they will be announcing soon.

SY will be beefing up MSP,
B6 is probably the most likely existing carrier to start any new service.
F9 will do some more trimming
DL will stay flat
Can't see WS add any service until the MAX issue is resolved.


Not quite. PKX replaces PEK for SkyTeam. PVG is still Delta’s home in Shanghai.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:49 am

I say add fra or muc
 
flyfresno
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:58 pm

jplatts wrote:
QXatFAT wrote:
I think at some point FAT can be added in 2020 by DL on an A319.


DL also has A220-300 planes on order which will seat 130 passengers (2 fewer passengers than DL's A319's but 6 more passengers than DL's 737-700's). In addition to having similar capacity to the A319 and 737-700 with First Class and Delta Comfort+, the A220-300 also has enough range for routes within the contiguous U.S. (and a longer range than the Boeing 737-700 and 737-800).


Agreed, the A220 would be much better suited for this route. UA alternates A319s/73Gs with A320s and 738s on FAT-ORD, but the 319 and 73G aren’t nearly as economical on longer routes, and DL mostly uses them when airport constraints require them (such as ATL-BUR or MSP-SNA) rather than thinner routes. I’m not sure what the A220’s runway performance looks like compared to the A319 and 73G, but you might even see the A220 replacing those two variants on some routes like the ones above. Most of DL’s A319s aren’t spring chickens anymore, so it would probably be an upgrade for pax too.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:03 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
Not to nitpick but if DL is going to do MSP-China flights it would be to PKX, not PVG. :D

I don't see another European carrier coming into the MSP market for 2020. But if any other foreign carriers are coming in, most likely they will be announcing soon.

SY will be beefing up MSP,
B6 is probably the most likely existing carrier to start any new service.
F9 will do some more trimming
DL will stay flat
Can't see WS add any service until the MAX issue is resolved.


Not quite. PKX replaces PEK for SkyTeam. PVG is still Delta’s home in Shanghai.


I would be interested to see a) how big China Eastern gets at the new Beijing airport (will the government let them add more routes there than they have at PEK?), and b) what the O&D from MSP to both the Shanghai region and Beijing region are. I would imagine China Eastern would need to add a ton of capacity in Beijing *and* O&D would need to be significantly larger to that region for PKX to win out over PVG.
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:51 am

NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is a possibility with (a) DL currently the only airline serving JAX nonstop from the MSP market, (b) MSP being the largest market in the Midwest without any nonstop LCC service to JAX, (c) other major Midwestern markets such as CHI, CVG, CLE, CMH/LCK, DTW, GRR, IND, and STL/BLV already having nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC on at least a seasonal basis, and (d) SY not currently serving the JAX market.

SY adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is also a possibility if SY adds service to JAX.
 
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flymco753
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:01 am

jplatts wrote:
NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is a possibility with (a) DL currently the only airline serving JAX nonstop from the MSP market, (b) MSP being the largest market in the Midwest without any nonstop LCC service to JAX, (c) other major Midwestern markets such as CHI, CVG, CLE, CMH/LCK, DTW, GRR, IND, and STL/BLV already having nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC on at least a seasonal basis, and (d) SY not currently serving the JAX market.

SY adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is also a possibility if SY adds service to JAX.
I doubt NK will add JAX from MSP. NK knows it's SY country and would get smothered. MSP-JAX is also not that big of a market, so it would make more sense for an off daily flight at 3x or twice per week.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:12 am

jplatts wrote:
NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is a possibility with (a) DL currently the only airline serving JAX nonstop from the MSP market, (b) MSP being the largest market in the Midwest without any nonstop LCC service to JAX, (c) other major Midwestern markets such as CHI, CVG, CLE, CMH/LCK, DTW, GRR, IND, and STL/BLV already having nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC on at least a seasonal basis, and (d) SY not currently serving the JAX market.

SY adding MSP-JAX nonstop service is also a possibility if SY adds service to JAX.


F9 tried MSP-JAX a few years ago and it bombed. It is just not a very large market even with ULCC stimulation. I doubt SY or NK are interested.
 
DakotaFlyer
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:41 am

No idea why anyone from MSP would o to JAX, seems weak business connections and limited leisure traffic
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:43 am

usflyer msp wrote:
F9 tried MSP-JAX a few years ago and it bombed. It is just not a very large market even with ULCC stimulation. I doubt SY or NK are interested.


NK is able to make ORD-JAX and DTW-JAX nonstop service work with both CHI and DTW having significantly more demand to JAX than MSP does.

While F9 has recently dropped JAX-CVG nonstop service and while CVG has lower PDEW's to JAX than MSP does, G4 can make CVG-JAX nonstop service work due to the lack of nonstop competition and due to G4 having served JAX nonstop from CVG for almost 5 years.

G4 can make nonstop service to JAX work from Midwestern markets such as CLE, LCK, GRR, IND, and BLV that have lower PDEW's to JAX than MSP does due to
(a) The lack of legacy carrier hubs in the CLE, CMH/LCK, GRR, IND, and STL/BLV markets,
(b) G4 not currently having any nonstop competition on its CLE-JAX, LCK-JAX, GRR-JAX, IND-JAX, and BLV-JAX nonstop routes, and
(c) G4 operating CLE-JAX, LCK-JAX, GRR-JAX, IND-JAX, and BLV-JAX nonstop service on a less than daily basis.

NK might be able to stimulate additional demand to JAX from MSP if it adds MSP-JAX nonstop service with NK already serving both the MSP and JAX markets and with ULCC's able to make nonstop service to JAX work from other Midwestern markets. NK also has been able to make some nonstop routes that had been dropped by F9 such as DFW-CLE work on at least a seasonal basis.
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:50 am

DakotaFlyer wrote:
No idea why anyone from MSP would o to JAX, seems weak business connections and limited leisure traffic


There is certainly some leisure traffic to JAX from other Midwestern markets such as ORD/MDW, CVG, CLE, CMH/LCK, DTW, GRR, IND, and STL/BLV with ULCC's serving JAX nonstop from these Midwestern markets.

There is also probably some leisure traffic to JAX from MSP with MSP being located in a bigger metro area than Cincinnati, Cleveland, Columbus (OH), Grand Rapids (MI), or St. Louis.

There are also some beaches in the Jacksonville metro area such as Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach, Jacksonville Beach, and Ponte Vedra Beach.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:11 pm

NK is not going to add JAX to its MSP routes. Far better options out there. Remember when they served higher demand cities like BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL?
 
jplatts
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:03 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
NK is not going to add JAX to its MSP routes. Far better options out there. Remember when they served higher demand cities like BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL?


I do remember when NK did serve higher demand cities such as BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP, but SY does serve BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP on at least a seasonal basis.

While I agree that NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service might not happen, I mentioned NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service as a possibility with ULCC's already serving JAX nonstop from other Midwestern cities and with the MSP market being bigger (by population) than some of the other Midwestern markets that have nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:16 pm

jplatts wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
NK is not going to add JAX to its MSP routes. Far better options out there. Remember when they served higher demand cities like BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL?


I do remember when NK did serve higher demand cities such as BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP, but SY does serve BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP on at least a seasonal basis.

While I agree that NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service might not happen, I mentioned NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service as a possibility with ULCC's already serving JAX nonstop from other Midwestern cities and with the MSP market being bigger (by population) than some of the other Midwestern markets that have nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC.


I think we need real analytics first, not just dartboard guesses.
Then, we need to understand how an airline, like NK, would make a decision around serving a particular market. Only then might we be able to qualify the argument for a route proposal.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 pm

I asked one of the founders at SY. How do you decide what routes to fly. He told me sarcastically.. We toss darts at a map in my office...God honest truth..LOL
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
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flymco753
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Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:28 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
NK is not going to add JAX to its MSP routes. Far better options out there. Remember when they served higher demand cities like BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL?


I do remember when NK did serve higher demand cities such as BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP, but SY does serve BOS, SEA, ORD, and PHL nonstop from MSP on at least a seasonal basis.

While I agree that NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service might not happen, I mentioned NK adding MSP-JAX nonstop service as a possibility with ULCC's already serving JAX nonstop from other Midwestern cities and with the MSP market being bigger (by population) than some of the other Midwestern markets that have nonstop service to JAX on at least one ULCC.


I think we need real analytics first, not just dartboard guesses.
Then, we need to understand how an airline, like NK, would make a decision around serving a particular market. Only then might we be able to qualify the argument for a route proposal.
This would be called a Quality of Service Index (QSI) report. Basically, you take the market data along with historical trends to figure out how much your airline can draw assuming little to no stimulation. In this case, if we go look at historical trends that F9 used, we can probably determine that an airline like NK wont start a route simply because MSP isn't a core focus city. For SY OTOH, there's much more comparable data since SY has entered similar situations. SY can stimulate more than NK because of SY's strength in the Minneapolis leisure market.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3865
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:59 pm

MSP is much further away from Florida than CVG and DTW so the travel patterns are different. Minnesotans generally do not vacation on the Atlantic coast of Florida. They greatly prefer the Gulf coast or Arizona. This is why routes like MSP-TPA and MSP-RSW see widebodies in the winter while places like JAX and FLL see token service and places like PBI see no service.
 
crazyjaydawg
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:51 pm

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:40 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
MSP is much further away from Florida than CVG and DTW so the travel patterns are different. Minnesotans generally do not vacation on the Atlantic coast of Florida. They greatly prefer the Gulf coast or Arizona. This is why routes like MSP-TPA and MSP-RSW see widebodies in the winter while places like JAX and FLL see token service and places like PBI see no service.


That being the case, any idea why there is little to no nonstop options between MSP and the FL panhandle?

It’s seems like DL forces everything through ATL, when I’m sure they could fill planes MSP-PNS, ECP or VPS.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3865
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:18 pm

crazyjaydawg wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
MSP is much further away from Florida than CVG and DTW so the travel patterns are different. Minnesotans generally do not vacation on the Atlantic coast of Florida. They greatly prefer the Gulf coast or Arizona. This is why routes like MSP-TPA and MSP-RSW see widebodies in the winter while places like JAX and FLL see token service and places like PBI see no service.


That being the case, any idea why there is little to no nonstop options between MSP and the FL panhandle?

It’s seems like DL forces everything through ATL, when I’m sure they could fill planes MSP-PNS, ECP or VPS.


Not really. The panhandle is not consistently warm enough during the winter for Minnesotans. The draw of the panhandle is that it is within a days driving distance of places like CVG and STL. From MSP one would have to fly and if one is going to purchase a ticket they might as well go somewhere that is almost guaranteed to be warm.
 
TW870
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:55 pm

GSPSPOT wrote:
Just a tangential question: Are there any decent views of the ramps or runways from the new hotel recently built onsite at MSP?


Yes. You can take the elevator up to the top floor. There is a hallway just outside the elevator bank that is open to the public and that has good views to the east, south, and southwest. The rooms face either north or south, with better views of the east end of the airport. The optimal airport configuration for viewing from the hotel is when they are arriving and departing on 30 L/R. Rooms on the south side of the hotel (and the viewing area at the top) are best for this, as you can see the heavies departing on 30L. You can get skunked, though, as the common configuration of arriving on 12 L/R, departing on 17 leaves you only with views of aircraft climbing out and some taxiway views for aircraft that use the whole runway on rollout. Ramp views are generally not great, as you are considerably east of the concourses (except A) with the parking facilities in between.

Note also that there is no longer a bar at the top, which is a huge downer. It is now a private event space, and you can rent it out for a hefty sum. All food and drink for guests and visitors are on the ground level with no view of the airport.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2548
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:34 am

TW870 wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Note also that there is no longer a bar at the top, which is a huge downer. It is now a private event space, and you can rent it out for a hefty sum. All food and drink for guests and visitors are on the ground level with no view of the airport.

Thanks for the info! But THAT sucks out loud. And such a new hotel for that to have happened.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
TW870
Posts: 1239
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:48 am

GSPSPOT wrote:
TW870 wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
Note also that there is no longer a bar at the top, which is a huge downer. It is now a private event space, and you can rent it out for a hefty sum. All food and drink for guests and visitors are on the ground level with no view of the airport.

Thanks for the info! But THAT sucks out loud. And such a new hotel for that to have happened.


It really does suck. The bar and the restaurant downstairs are very nice. Bradstreet Crafthouse, which has been in a couple of different locations downtown Minneapolis, has excellent food and drinks, and I really enjoyed it. The design is very nice. But there are no windows! On my particular stay I was okay, because I had a northeast facing corner room, which was absolutely beautiful. But the top floor is a bust. The whole space where the bar originally was is locked off, and you can't even get to the northwest facing bank of windows from which you can see downtown Minneapolis and arrivals on 12L. There is also no terrace or outside space. Obviously returns on outdoor dining in Minnesota are much lower than in other climates, but I feel like there is a lost opportunity to be a destination for locals for airplane viewing and drinks on nice nights in the warmer season - especially because all of the bar and restaurant spaces where you can see airplanes inside the airport are beyond security.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2548
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:02 am

TW870 wrote:
GSPSPOT wrote:
TW870 wrote:

Thanks for the info! But THAT sucks out loud. And such a new hotel for that to have happened.


It really does suck. The bar and the restaurant downstairs are very nice. Bradstreet Crafthouse, which has been in a couple of different locations downtown Minneapolis, has excellent food and drinks, and I really enjoyed it. The design is very nice. But there are no windows! On my particular stay I was okay, because I had a northeast facing corner room, which was absolutely beautiful. But the top floor is a bust. The whole space where the bar originally was is locked off, and you can't even get to the northwest facing bank of windows from which you can see downtown Minneapolis and arrivals on 12L. There is also no terrace or outside space. Obviously returns on outdoor dining in Minnesota are much lower than in other climates, but I feel like there is a lost opportunity to be a destination for locals for airplane viewing and drinks on nice nights in the warmer season - especially because all of the bar and restaurant spaces where you can see airplanes inside the airport are beyond security.

Thanks so much for your depth of information. Would really like to visit soon. We connected through MSP many times and enjoyed it.
Great Lakes, great life.
 
rainaviation2
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:44 pm

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:52 am

Does anyone have any information on the Concourse G remodel? I saw parts of an article behind a paywall. I knew they planned to "fill in" the gaps between gates, but any idea on when this construction will start and if they are still planning on a Concourse G tram?
 
BAINY3
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:40 am

usflyer msp wrote:
MSP is much further away from Florida than CVG and DTW so the travel patterns are different. Minnesotans generally do not vacation on the Atlantic coast of Florida. They greatly prefer the Gulf coast or Arizona. This is why routes like MSP-TPA and MSP-RSW see widebodies in the winter while places like JAX and FLL see token service and places like PBI see no service.

I agree with this observation, but I wonder why this is and how that came to be, especially since the winter climate is a bit more reliably tropical in FLL compared to TPA. It also seems like there's more to do in FLL compared to TPA as South Florida in general is a significantly larger metro area than Tampa Bay. It does seem that whenever I know Minnesotans head to FLL or MIA, it's just for a cruise. WN flies MSP-FLL on Saturdays only during the winter for this exact market.

It does seem like different temperate locales all picked their token Florida vacation spots at one point (the Inland South seems to prefer the Panhandle; the Northeast prefers the Atlantic Coast, and the Midwest prefers the Gulf Coast south of the Panhandle).
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Minneapolis Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:02 am

BAINY3 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
MSP is much further away from Florida than CVG and DTW so the travel patterns are different. Minnesotans generally do not vacation on the Atlantic coast of Florida. They greatly prefer the Gulf coast or Arizona. This is why routes like MSP-TPA and MSP-RSW see widebodies in the winter while places like JAX and FLL see token service and places like PBI see no service.

I agree with this observation, but I wonder why this is and how that came to be, especially since the winter climate is a bit more reliably tropical in FLL compared to TPA. It also seems like there's more to do in FLL compared to TPA as South Florida in general is a significantly larger metro area than Tampa Bay. It does seem that whenever I know Minnesotans head to FLL or MIA, it's just for a cruise. WN flies MSP-FLL on Saturdays only during the winter for this exact market.

It does seem like different temperate locales all picked their token Florida vacation spots at one point (the Inland South seems to prefer the Panhandle; the Northeast prefers the Atlantic Coast, and the Midwest prefers the Gulf Coast south of the Panhandle).


I think culturally, they're drawn to a quieter, more low key environment not necessarily wanting the bigger market.
I'm not a golfer, but perhaps the Gulf side is more "golfy" ?
Even something like Baseball spring training has an impact, probably...

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