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GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6072
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:20 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

No. Regional pilots don’t make any money because that is how the regionals survive. If they paid a wage that was equal to mainline they would not be able to exist.

They are paid to little because the system is broken. You need experience to get paid good money but you can’t get experience unless you get a job flying airplanes. The companies at the bottom say hey we got a seat you can fill but we are only go to pay you scraps. And a new pilot begrudgingly takes the low paid position because he has too.


You pretty much proved his point—in order to get the big bucks, many are willing to take low pay in the hope getting picked for big bucks, great life. One follows the other.


I wouldn’t say I proved his point. In 2003 when United went bankrupt pilots took a 30% pay cut and some got bumped to lower paying equipment. I have friends that took a 50% pay cut over night. Still the regionals paid horrible and then doubled in size. The mainline pilots taking 30% pay cuts did nothing to get the regional pilots paid.

If All pilots at AA/DL/UA took a 30% pay cut tomorrow the regional pilots would see none of it. The money would go straight to the shareholders.


Yes, the Guppykillers! I have known and flown with a bunch of “instant” airline pilots, unfortunately. They all had wet commercials with 250 hours and thought they had hit the jackpot on the way to glory. But, those junior birdmen all joined the regionals in the belief they’d eventually be hired and get the golden ring tha5 was much better than RJ pay.

They paid for their greed with stagnation, low pay.
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:22 pm

Tailwinds wrote:
In the United States the barrier to entry is just too steep for most people to hurdle. For most people the process will look something like go to flight school, get a time-building job, get an airline job. That time building part in between is the barrier, because the loans for flight school / university are due but you probably won't have the income to pay them, let alone pay them and rent as well. $150k for university and flight training is maybe even lowballing it. The ability to cover those loans is not a trivial undertaking. Just having parents who can back those loans is not common. Family wealth is hugely important. You'll see very few new airline pilots whose families live paycheck to paycheck.

Further, the 1500 hour rule all but killed the mid-life career change. Where many people might have been able to invest the time and money to get their ratings on the side, maybe $10k/yr for 5 years, now that's not really possible. You need to save up a huge lump sum, quit your job, and dive full time in to a place like AllATPs.

It's notable that the consumption of ATPs by the majors is over 4000 pilots/year. That's 4-6 million GA hours of training, something like half of all GA hours flown. And with a GA fatality rate of about 1 per 100k hours, we're looking at 40-60 fatalities annually as part of the airline supply pipeline, roughly 1%.

The 1500 hour rule is stupid and counter productive, but it's dramatically improved pay so the unions will fight tooth and nail for it. But teaching someone how to fly a Cessna 150 for 1000 hours is as much prep for the airline world as teaching kids to drive a Corolla for 1000 hours is prep for F1 racing. I'd happily trade 1500 total for 100 hours PIC on an IFR flight plan and an actual mentorship program that went far beyond the meager "green on green" rules we have now.


I've always thought that a Part 135 or 91 flight department exception to the 1500 rule (Maybe 750 hours for an R-ATP with that experience) would be a good idea. It would allow pilots to be incentivized to chase out new experiences/make them better airline pilots and satisfy the needs of 135 EAS carriers. I would totally jump on that from my CFI job if the R-ATP incentive was there.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:40 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.


Does KLM still have their own flight school?
 
airlineaddict
Posts: 389
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:37 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:06 pm

I’ve heard that at least in the USA, the military is not graduating as many pilots as they did previously. This is contributing to the potential pilot shortage in the future.

In light of this, many of the major airlines have created programs to recruit and train future pilots. Some of the programs require the future pilot to already be enrolled in a partner aviation college. Others will provide assistance to those interested in becoming pilots but have yet to start flight school. Here are the names of the programs by airline:

AA - Cadet academy
B6 - Pilot Gateway
DL - Propel
UA - Aviate
WN - Destination 225 (degrees)
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:27 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.


Does KLM still have their own flight school?


Yes
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:30 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
Just a little update to my previous post, if a person is in a low paying pilot job (They don't really exist anymore outside of crappy frieght operations or little EAS carriers). They have seeked it out and turned down other better opportunities.

Regionals are paying 60k first year with upgrades running from 1 to 3 years bumping pay to close or over 100k a year. It isn't like pilots are making 25k a year anymore like some posters are trying to convince. If you cant figure out how to live on 60k a year at 24 years old, you may need a financial planner. (I am about to plan a move to one of the most expensive cities in America on that)

It sucks to see the doom and gloom here but in all honesty, it is an amazing time to be in aviation.

(This is from a US point of view as someone going through the hiring process at multiple regionals)


You have to have the hours to qualify to make it to regional first or they wont even consider you, otherwise your going to be a flight instructor, crop dusting or flying for Southern Airways Express lucky to make 15 an hour plus per diem,
 
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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:58 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Just a little update to my previous post, if a person is in a low paying pilot job (They don't really exist anymore outside of crappy frieght operations or little EAS carriers). They have seeked it out and turned down other better opportunities.

Regionals are paying 60k first year with upgrades running from 1 to 3 years bumping pay to close or over 100k a year. It isn't like pilots are making 25k a year anymore like some posters are trying to convince. If you cant figure out how to live on 60k a year at 24 years old, you may need a financial planner. (I am about to plan a move to one of the most expensive cities in America on that)

It sucks to see the doom and gloom here but in all honesty, it is an amazing time to be in aviation.

(This is from a US point of view as someone going through the hiring process at multiple regionals)


You have to have the hours to qualify to make it to regional first or they wont even consider you, otherwise your going to be a flight instructor, crop dusting or flying for Southern Airways Express lucky to make 15 an hour plus per diem,


I make well above 15 dollars an hour while getting over 100 hours a month as a flight instructor. I also have many friends at other Phoenix schools that make over 50k a year as a CFI.

Times have changed if you are flexible enough and chase it.

(This also discounts private aviation with many people under 1500 hours making more than that)
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:06 am

SierraPacific wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
Just a little update to my previous post, if a person is in a low paying pilot job (They don't really exist anymore outside of crappy frieght operations or little EAS carriers). They have seeked it out and turned down other better opportunities.

Regionals are paying 60k first year with upgrades running from 1 to 3 years bumping pay to close or over 100k a year. It isn't like pilots are making 25k a year anymore like some posters are trying to convince. If you cant figure out how to live on 60k a year at 24 years old, you may need a financial planner. (I am about to plan a move to one of the most expensive cities in America on that)

It sucks to see the doom and gloom here but in all honesty, it is an amazing time to be in aviation.

(This is from a US point of view as someone going through the hiring process at multiple regionals)


You have to have the hours to qualify to make it to regional first or they wont even consider you, otherwise your going to be a flight instructor, crop dusting or flying for Southern Airways Express lucky to make 15 an hour plus per diem,


I make well above 15 dollars an hour while getting over 100 hours a month as a flight instructor. I also have many friends at other Phoenix schools that make over 50k a year as a CFI.

Times have changed if you are flexible enough and chase it.

(This also discounts private aviation with many people under 1500 hours making more than that)


Good for you, and good luck in pursuing your goals
 
User avatar
SierraPacific
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:11 am

crjflyboy wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:

You have to have the hours to qualify to make it to regional first or they wont even consider you, otherwise your going to be a flight instructor, crop dusting or flying for Southern Airways Express lucky to make 15 an hour plus per diem,


I make well above 15 dollars an hour while getting over 100 hours a month as a flight instructor. I also have many friends at other Phoenix schools that make over 50k a year as a CFI.

Times have changed if you are flexible enough and chase it.

(This also discounts private aviation with many people under 1500 hours making more than that)


Good for you, and good luck in pursuing your goals


Thank you!

I didn't want to come off to be adversarial in any way, shape, or form. I do agree with you that there are terrible ways to build hours like Southern Airways Express but there are also some real gems when it comes to hour building.

Happy New Year!
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:17 am

SierraPacific wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
SierraPacific wrote:

I make well above 15 dollars an hour while getting over 100 hours a month as a flight instructor. I also have many friends at other Phoenix schools that make over 50k a year as a CFI.

Times have changed if you are flexible enough and chase it.

(This also discounts private aviation with many people under 1500 hours making more than that)


Good for you, and good luck in pursuing your goals


Thank you!

I didn't want to come off to be adversarial in any way, shape, or form. I do agree with you that there are terrible ways to build hours like Southern Airways Express but there are also some real gems when it comes to hour building.

Happy New Year!


You didn't come off that way at all ... sounds like you found the perfect niche to build up your hours ... I hope some of it is on on twin engines for you ... that can open more doors and opportunities down the road ...

Good luck and Happy New Years to you as well
 
timh4000
Topic Author
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:56 am

1st, don't shoot the messenger-

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing- ... enges.html

So why would I assume otherwise about there being a pilot shortage?

I've never hinted or attempted to give off any vibe that I am or might be a pilot. Or for that matter that I am anywhere near the knowledge of the numbers guys. That have insane amounts of facts and figures stored away for any given discussion. They know more about fleet sizes and individual tail numbers and in some cases where that particular aircraft has been.

I'm here for different reasons. For me while I do enjoy learning "some" about fleet sizes and individual airports, I'm here mostly for the overall experience of flying and learning some about the life and employment of those who get me from point A. To point B.

I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction by flight crews, pilots or F/A's. Every job has its many downsides including being a rock star or a top actor in Hollywood. Yours is no different. It often takes years to gain seniority to the point where you have some control over your career without having to make huge sacrifices. More jobs than not are this way as well.

You guys have said so yourselves, it's possible to make 200k a year ut it takes decades to get there, if you even do get there. Making half that is still well above average. I've
never once argued that you guys are over paid and that being a pilot today means pushing a few buttons and basically going for a ride. I know that you guys still have to operate the technology that allows you to take your hand off the yoke or side stick. That it can be extremely complex at times and that you guys have a great burden of responsibility of being the operator of a mass transit vehicle. Still though, I'm going to go out on the ledge and say you guys with the front row seats have just as much interest in getting back in one piece as the passengers do. Something I've reminded people a few times when they pull some strange attitude about a pilots lack of safety concern.
I've told them, you ever see them walking around checking out the plane? One person said it was all just for show. Well, that "show" isn't just aimed at passengers. They themselves are equally interested in a healthy aircraft.

I'll never argue against you that you aren't getting paid enough for what you do. Is it as glamorous as the lifestyle would appear? Probably no where near, but I've discovered along my travels in life that there is no job that is as glamorous as it appears. I would still say though that overall, your job is still better than most, so long as traveling is something you can handle.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6072
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:07 am

Working at an OEM, I can say pilot labor supply and experience was identified as a problem within the industry, at least, 8 years ago at industry safety meetings. It’s not news, really.

Second, despite the stagnation, I know several corporate pilots who learned to fly post-9/11, stayed out of the airlines and are making in excess of $225K in their thirties. It’s possible if you work at it and think outside the box.

GF
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:35 am

timh4000 wrote:
1st, don't shoot the messenger-

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing- ... enges.html

So why would I assume otherwise about there being a pilot shortage?

I've never hinted or attempted to give off any vibe that I am or might be a pilot. Or for that matter that I am anywhere near the knowledge of the numbers guys. That have insane amounts of facts and figures stored away for any given discussion. They know more about fleet sizes and individual tail numbers and in some cases where that particular aircraft has been.

I'm here for different reasons. For me while I do enjoy learning "some" about fleet sizes and individual airports, I'm here mostly for the overall experience of flying and learning some about the life and employment of those who get me from point A. To point B.

I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction by flight crews, pilots or F/A's. Every job has its many downsides including being a rock star or a top actor in Hollywood. Yours is no different. It often takes years to gain seniority to the point where you have some control over your career without having to make huge sacrifices. More jobs than not are this way as well.

You guys have said so yourselves, it's possible to make 200k a year ut it takes decades to get there, if you even do get there. Making half that is still well above average. I've
never once argued that you guys are over paid and that being a pilot today means pushing a few buttons and basically going for a ride. I know that you guys still have to operate the technology that allows you to take your hand off the yoke or side stick. That it can be extremely complex at times and that you guys have a great burden of responsibility of being the operator of a mass transit vehicle. Still though, I'm going to go out on the ledge and say you guys with the front row seats have just as much interest in getting back in one piece as the passengers do. Something I've reminded people a few times when they pull some strange attitude about a pilots lack of safety concern.
I've told them, you ever see them walking around checking out the plane? One person said it was all just for show. Well, that "show" isn't just aimed at passengers. They themselves are equally interested in a healthy aircraft.

I'll never argue against you that you aren't getting paid enough for what you do. Is it as glamorous as the lifestyle would appear? Probably no where near, but I've discovered along my travels in life that there is no job that is as glamorous as it appears. I would still say though that overall, your job is still better than most, so long as traveling is something you can handle.


Good post thank you
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4985
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:13 am

Andy33 wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
I hear often that there is a pilot shortage, and that are times flights are delayed for hrs. And sometimes cancelled.
60th Birthda
One would think that decent pay and worldwide travel would make for a very sought after means of employment. So it's a bit of a surprise to me that there is a shortage. Could it be the airlines are booking flights they end up with a plane needing maintenance and no back up, or short pilots to fly it.

I sometimes wonder if today's aviation and being a pilot where you're dealing with massive tech. The auto pilot is turned off usually as a last resort. unless it is determined the automation is the cause of the problem. I wonder if that can be a bit overwhelming to many would be pilots?


What makes you think that all airlines offer decent pay and worldwide travel? Most can't offer worldwide travel because they don't fly worldwide, and a recent hire flying a 50 seat regional jet certainly doesn't get anything remotely the same as a long-service pilot flying 777/787/A330/A350.

check it out for yourself at Airlinepilotcentral.com, Go into the National pilot area and open an airline's profile then you can see for yourself what a beginning pilot makes after all the training getting by on first year pay. And? It ain't pretty!! Before I retired as a mechanic? I made $51 per hr. And I could work overtime , slept in my OWN bed every night (or day depending on my shift) My salary was in the neighborhood of $116K /yr. before I retired and Now? the guys are making $125K-135K for the same job I did. My only complaint was? Having to work rotating shifts and a LOT of weekends and Holidays!! I just enjoyed my 3rd Christmas retired. and I don't think I would even want to return to work no matter HOW much I was making. Working in the Airline industry is not for the faint of heart as you'll make good money but you will miss a LOT of Holidays and weekends off while you're making the Good Money. As a Supervisor I had a LOT of occasions to counsel subordinates about Days off and the lack of Holidays. Many times the wives had some pretty strange Ideas about when their Husbands had to work. And many times there were Divorces about having to work on Holidays. I was 30+ years before I was able to bid Christmas Vacation. Lucky for me? My wife was a trooper and hung in there with me. For MY 60th birthday I bought HER a Brand new GMC Terrain with everything Known to Man we could order on it. Just because she Hung in there with me and ,ade my life easier with my schedule of 6 on 3 off rotating 8hr shifts, then 4 on 5 off 12 hr days or nights which rotated every other week. She deserved it.
 
airtechy
Posts: 763
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:01 pm

There are a few documentaries on u-tube that show how Easyjet gets some of their pilots. If you believe it, basically you hand them about $100,000 dollars and two years later they put you in the right seat of a Airbus 320 along with a senior training captain in the left seat. In the jump seat is a FO that is well advanced in training in case the new guy doesn't cut it. All without passengers to start of course. Pilots are trained the Easyjet way starting with a C172, much sim time, and book work. For some bright ones this can result in the right seat at about 200 hours .. or so the program says. Easyjet has been around a good while and I don't think they have had any accidents so what's wrong with this training approach? To me, 200 hours seems low, but 1500 hours seems high.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6sw71x

Interesting series.. more on u-tube.

Jim
 
reltney
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:55 am

Max Q wrote:
Lots of doom and gloom and frankly very inaccurate information here

Working as a pilot for one of the big three US majors currently is as good as it gets


I can only speak personally for United whose Pilots are enjoying just about the best pay and benefits the industry has ever seen

And about time, we’ve been through the wringer in this industry


Lots of understandable bitterness about the past but this is a new golden age for major US airline pilots



My benefits as a pilot at one of the 3 big US carriers is 1/2 of what it was when I was hired in 96’. Yes, 1/2. Indisputable and documented.

I love my job/career. I am a pilot and envy no one, however the career is not what is was and that’s life. Time to move forward but I won’t forget when one prints false info about a career they have no part of...
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
Max Q
Posts: 8430
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:23 am

WPvsMW wrote:
As for standby travel perks, all the long-haul pilots I know stay Stateside (which includes standby to a second home, say... in Taos or Hawaii), and avoid a busman's holiday to Europe, Asia, etc.



Suits some I suppose

I know plenty who use their passes to see even more of the world

Furthermore, at United employees can buy positive space tickets at significant discounts when flights are very full

Done it a few times myself
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:21 am

Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.

So I guess the backup plan in the event the solo pilot becomes incapacitated would be a pilot on the ground remotely flying and landing the aircraft. Hopefully any kinks in the system would’ve been worked out by that point.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 11810
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:03 am

dampfnudel wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.

So I guess the backup plan in the event the solo pilot becomes incapacitated would be a pilot on the ground remotely flying and landing the aircraft. Hopefully any kinks in the system would’ve been worked out by that point.


It probably will, otherwise it would not be oked by the authorities. It will happen sooner then latter. I think that a pilot starting his carreer, will not end it in the cockpit. Why would this gorup of workers be imune to automatatisation? They went from the standard 3 man cockpit to a 2 men cockpit, so eliminating a second one in the cockpit would vastly improve the economics since these are the highest paying jobs inside the aircraft.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Max Q
Posts: 8430
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:05 am

reltney wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Lots of doom and gloom and frankly very inaccurate information here

Working as a pilot for one of the big three US majors currently is as good as it gets


I can only speak personally for United whose Pilots are enjoying just about the best pay and benefits the industry has ever seen

And about time, we’ve been through the wringer in this industry


Lots of understandable bitterness about the past but this is a new golden age for major US airline pilots



My benefits as a pilot at one of the 3 big US carriers is 1/2 of what it was when I was hired in 96’. Yes, 1/2. Indisputable and documented.

I love my job/career. I am a pilot and envy no one, however the career is not what is was and that’s life. Time to move forward but I won’t forget when one prints false info about a career they have no part of...



Don’t know the specifics of your career or which airline you work for

I started with Continental in 1987, so my path was a little different than yours

Pilots of my seniority had more than our share of hardship I can tell you, it finally worked out but you never know

You say your benefits are half what they used to be but dont describe what that is exactly

With the excellent contracts in place at all the big three in the US and your 22 years seniority I suspect that more than compensates
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4240
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:51 pm

These sorts of threads and discussions do make this forum great. Especially when people give an outline of how an aviation career did or did not work for them or someone else they knew. Also advice offered for someone interested in an aviation career is useful.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6072
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:11 pm

Max Q wrote:
reltney wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Lots of doom and gloom and frankly very inaccurate information here

Working as a pilot for one of the big three US majors currently is as good as it gets


I can only speak personally for United whose Pilots are enjoying just about the best pay and benefits the industry has ever seen

And about time, we’ve been through the wringer in this industry


Lots of understandable bitterness about the past but this is a new golden age for major US airline pilots



My benefits as a pilot at one of the 3 big US carriers is 1/2 of what it was when I was hired in 96’. Yes, 1/2. Indisputable and documented.

I love my job/career. I am a pilot and envy no one, however the career is not what is was and that’s life. Time to move forward but I won’t forget when one prints false info about a career they have no part of...



Don’t know the specifics of your career or which airline you work for

I started with Continental in 1987, so my path was a little different than yours

Pilots of my seniority had more than our share of hardship I can tell you, it finally worked out but you never know

You say your benefits are half what they used to be but dont describe what that is exactly

With the excellent contracts in place at all the big three in the US and your 22 years seniority I suspect that more than compensates


Not nearly what pilots of my seniority at EAL had, I can assure you of that. A good friend totaled 13 years of panel-pecking on the Boeing at EAL and NWA, retiring as a mid-seniority DC-9 captain. Lots never flew again, one committed suicide, many divorces, crack-ups.

GF
 
Max Q
Posts: 8430
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:43 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:
reltney wrote:


My benefits as a pilot at one of the 3 big US carriers is 1/2 of what it was when I was hired in 96’. Yes, 1/2. Indisputable and documented.

I love my job/career. I am a pilot and envy no one, however the career is not what is was and that’s life. Time to move forward but I won’t forget when one prints false info about a career they have no part of...



Don’t know the specifics of your career or which airline you work for

I started with Continental in 1987, so my path was a little different than yours

Pilots of my seniority had more than our share of hardship I can tell you, it finally worked out but you never know

You say your benefits are half what they used to be but dont describe what that is exactly

With the excellent contracts in place at all the big three in the US and your 22 years seniority I suspect that more than compensates


Not nearly what pilots of my seniority at EAL had, I can assure you of that. A good friend totaled 13 years of panel-pecking on the Boeing at EAL and NWA, retiring as a mid-seniority DC-9 captain. Lots never flew again, one committed suicide, many divorces, crack-ups.

GF



You really can’t, today’s contracts at the big three are miles ahead of the times you relate to, thats ancient history, things have changed a lot


And I Don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make other than the US airline industry sucked for many people for a long time, this is true, I know as I lived it


But then you say you had a better contract at Eastern than those in effect today ?


Seems contradictory and anyway look what happened to EA


Like many corporate pilots you seem to have a lot of bitterness towards the airlines
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
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Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.

So I guess the backup plan in the event the solo pilot becomes incapacitated would be a pilot on the ground remotely flying and landing the aircraft. Hopefully any kinks in the system would’ve been worked out by that point.


It probably will, otherwise it would not be oked by the authorities. It will happen sooner then latter. I think that a pilot starting his carreer, will not end it in the cockpit. Why would this gorup of workers be imune to automatatisation? They went from the standard 3 man cockpit to a 2 men cockpit, so eliminating a second one in the cockpit would vastly improve the economics since these are the highest paying jobs inside the aircraft.


Sure but who are going to be the people shelling out the money to fly on the automated aircraft? The real issue is that a plane that can handle a smell in the cabin, runaway trim (exactly like a brand new E175 last month), or flight attendants getting into a fistfight in the cabin (Delta) would require tech that could easily replace a majority of workers in other fields.

We are going to have much larger societal issues before my job is replaced.

(This is also ignoring political factors which will be gigantic in the coming decades)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:18 pm

Max Q wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Don’t know the specifics of your career or which airline you work for

I started with Continental in 1987, so my path was a little different than yours

Pilots of my seniority had more than our share of hardship I can tell you, it finally worked out but you never know

You say your benefits are half what they used to be but dont describe what that is exactly

With the excellent contracts in place at all the big three in the US and your 22 years seniority I suspect that more than compensates


Not nearly what pilots of my seniority at EAL had, I can assure you of that. A good friend totaled 13 years of panel-pecking on the Boeing at EAL and NWA, retiring as a mid-seniority DC-9 captain. Lots never flew again, one committed suicide, many divorces, crack-ups.

GF



You really can’t, today’s contracts at the big three are miles ahead of the times you relate to, thats ancient history, things have changed a lot


And I Don’t really understand the point you’re trying to make other than the US airline industry sucked for many people for a long time, this is true, I know as I lived it


But then you say you had a better contract at Eastern than those in effect today ?


Seems contradictory and anyway look what happened to EA


Like many corporate pilots you seem to have a lot of bitterness towards the airlines


Didn’t say EA’s contract was better than today’s. I was referring to your comment boldfaced where you “had your share of hardship” and your share of hardship wasn’t nearly what the EA pilots had for hardships. I’ve posted many times that I found airline flying boring, liked the military and corporate flying I did very much, it provided a good living, I did lots of great things. Bitterness toward airline careers, no. I have loads of airline friends. And, I have loads of ex-airline friends who stayed corporate including three ex-UAL pilots. Bitterness toward being treated by Lorenzo and his fanboys badly, yes. And, like most CO pilots, think EA’s demise was our fault and CO management had nothing to do with it.

Yes, today’s contracts are quite good.

GF
 
flyingcode
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Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:12 pm

This is my first post ever on a.net since I started reading it in 2002. I'm providing my perspective as a former candidate for a pilot career.

My childhood dream was to become a commercial pilot, it was an "emotional" thing. In my early 20's I could not afford flight school so I became a computer programmer (I learned it on my own from books), I've been programming for 23 years and making a great living off of it.

At age 30 I seriously considered flight school but my neighbors who are airline pilots convinced me to abandon this idea. They complained about the cost of flight school, crappy pay scales after airline bankruptcies, crashpads, night flights, jet lag, airline/hotel food, none of which I ever had to deal with. Their wives REGULARLY complained to me about feeling lonely at home, while I've been working from home most of my career. They could not easily switch employers, and the seniority lists didn't help that cause either, while I would switch jobs whenever I felt like it and usually got more money. So the more I learned about the job conditions, the less attractive it seemed.

I've worked with many programmers who fly planes for fun or even for their consulting gigs across the US (and get a nice tax deduction for that).

Years ago I took the time to read technical literature of flight school. I enjoyed it very much and found it very interesting, however the material seemed relatively less challenging/complex compared to programming commercial computer systems. But I guess that's a personal thing.

When I was young, (back in late 70's - 80's), flying was not affordable for most people, so pilots had a huge advantage of frequently visiting far away places. Nowadays flying is very affordable and less "special" so this advantage of pilots is long gone.

One more aspect to consider is early retirement - when I was 20 I set my goal to retire at age 50, which required me to spend a lot of my time on investments. My neighbors/pilots counted on employer pensions which got wiped out in bankruptcy. I spent a lot of time on stocks and real estate. My neighbors don't have much free time for investments. I'm only 2 years away from retirement. My neighbors can't afford to retire early, they say they make the big money only in the last 10 years of seniority. Plus their wives gave up working/income to be a SAHM.

In the next 5 years I could see a pilot shortage because of the cost of flight school and the horrible student loan crisis. But longer term, I'm not sure there will be a huge pilot shortage, especially when single-pilot planes come out (I know pilots HATE this idea but don't kill the messenger).

I still appreciate the hard work pilots do everyday, and I make sure to thank them at the end of every flight I take. They took the path I chose to skip.
 
Max Q
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Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:33 pm

Someone has always had it tougher than you GF, that’s just the way it is

And plenty have had it easier too


Your military benefits must have been a great help while you were there


FYI I’m no Lorenzo ‘fanboy’ I was hired at Continental three years after the strike, we didn’t go under but we came close and it took me 19 years to get to the left seat, going through bankruptcies, massive stagnation and lousy pay and benefits


But like many bitter ex Eastern pilots lumping us all together makes it easier to rationalize your blame

Speaking of blame, that doesn’t belong to any particular employee group at EA, Lorenzo was the last straw in a long history of inept and corrupt management there



But it looks like you have a lot to be grateful for these days so I’d just let all that ancient, and it is ancient history go
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilot shortage

Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:41 pm

I have and I even have worked with EA “scabs”; some good friends in fact. But, I’m not a “bitter corporate” pilot. I was on the EA MEC at the end, very well acquainted with the history of the airline. But, it’s a fact, EA was a very poorly led airline, Lorenzo killed it and used the CO to pick the bones and finish it off. He could have merged the two successfully.
 
flyby519
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:37 am

Want to fix the pilot shortage (at least in the US)? End the regional outsourcing model by mandating mainline carriers fly the equipment on their own operating certificates instead of selling tickets that are operated by subcontractors. Yes, this will decimate the regional business model by ending the capacity purchase agreements, but it will create more mainline jobs (these are the jobs that regional pilots want anyways) than there are today. Instead of having a dozen 50seater flights/day to podunk airports we might have half that many flights on mainline narrowbodies.

Some regionals will maintain an at-risk business model like some have in small amounts today (Skywest?) but most will likely get bought or absorbed into mainline operations.

Low wages at regional carriers create artificially inflated growth demand which fuels the shortage.
 
mwthekoopinator
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:33 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
IMO, exemptions allowing lower time pilots, especially young FO's under an experienced captain,, to operate TRUE regional services (19 pax and under), would go a long way to solving several problems.

Actually, there is an exception for that. Airlines like Hageland Aviation (dba Ravn Connect) allow low hour pilots to fly as FOs in their B1900 aircraft running puddle jumps around rural Alaska. I have some coworkers considering that route instead of the CFI route to get hours between earning their CPL and ATP. Boutique also allows them to serve as FOs on their PC-12s. I believe Southern Airways Express and Ameriflight both have similar programs to help low hour FOs. They are often very competitive, though.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:38 am

Dutchy wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Don't know what your question actually is. Sure, becoming a pilot can be overwhelming, but actually being one, don't think so. You know your trade and it is very protocol orientated, not very exciting I would say. Three obstacles to become a pilot: 1. money, cost a bunch to get your CPL, 2. hours - you need to build up hours before applying to a pilot job with many airlines, 3. ability, you need to have some talent to pass the course and get where you need to go.

I think we may be heading to a one pilot cockpit soon, also to ease cost.

So I guess the backup plan in the event the solo pilot becomes incapacitated would be a pilot on the ground remotely flying and landing the aircraft. Hopefully any kinks in the system would’ve been worked out by that point.


It probably will, otherwise it would not be oked by the authorities. It will happen sooner then latter. I think that a pilot starting his carreer, will not end it in the cockpit. Why would this gorup of workers be imune to automatatisation? They went from the standard 3 man cockpit to a 2 men cockpit, so eliminating a second one in the cockpit would vastly improve the economics since these are the highest paying jobs inside the aircraft.

Yeah, but I have a feeling some PAX will be uneasy during the transition, myself probably included.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:49 am

Can someone point out to me a regional carrier who has extremely low wages? Competitive regionals carriers pay a very livable wage, even for first year FOs
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Dutchy
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:17 am

dampfnudel wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
So I guess the backup plan in the event the solo pilot becomes incapacitated would be a pilot on the ground remotely flying and landing the aircraft. Hopefully any kinks in the system would’ve been worked out by that point.


It probably will, otherwise it would not be oked by the authorities. It will happen sooner then latter. I think that a pilot starting his carreer, will not end it in the cockpit. Why would this gorup of workers be imune to automatatisation? They went from the standard 3 man cockpit to a 2 men cockpit, so eliminating a second one in the cockpit would vastly improve the economics since these are the highest paying jobs inside the aircraft.

Yeah, but I have a feeling some PAX will be uneasy during the transition, myself probably included.


That will probably the case, but I think that in the end it will happen and it will be prize driven. Just like with cars, it will happen and everyone will get used to it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Max Q
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:36 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I have and I even have worked with EA “scabs”; some good friends in fact. But, I’m not a “bitter corporate” pilot. I was on the EA MEC at the end, very well acquainted with the history of the airline. But, it’s a fact, EA was a very poorly led airline, Lorenzo killed it and used the CO to pick the bones and finish it off. He could have merged the two successfully.



He could have merged the two airlines successfully, under good management the combination of CO with the hubs it had then in GUM, HNL, LAX, DEN, IAH, CLE and EWR
with EA’s in MIA, ATL, LGA, JFK, MCI and SJU it would have been a true juggernaut, an operation more akin to the mega 3 we have in the US now


But as you know Lorenzo really didn’t have any interest in running an Airline profitably, let alone competently and he did basically pillage aircraft and other assets from EA and ‘transferred’ them to CO


He was all about putting together the ‘big deal mergers’ profiting massively himself and then on to the next


Cheap to the extreme and anti labor to the core he trashed every airline he had anything to do with


Finally bailing on Continental shortly after SAS invested a significant sum, personally profiting once again right before we filed CH11 again, wiping out their investment


He knew what was coming, a con man to the end and the only CEO banned for life by Congress from any further involvement in the airline industry


But that was all way above my pay grade and Eastern had big problems for years before Lorenzo came knocking
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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UpNAWAy
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:03 am

I tell every young person I know there is no better time to start an aviation career. Pilots and Mechanics and Engineers are all routes I would recommend, all have tons of retirements looming, the industry has never been more stable or prospects better. These really are the golden days of aviation (Unlike the horrible but much romanticized but historically ridiculous inaccurate memories of the 1960's-1990's
 
Max Q
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:07 am

In 30-40 years from now people will be amazed that human pilots were paid quite well to fly aircraft


Sad but true


This is not only the golden age for Airline pilots it’s the start of a long sunset for what I consider the best profession in the world
Last edited by Max Q on Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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VSMUT
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:10 am

Max Q wrote:
In 30-40 years from now people will be amazed that human pilots were paid quite well to fly aircraft


Sad but true


In 30-40 years from now people will be amazed that anyone was paid to do work.

Automation of piloting has a very big profile, but the technology required to do so will make most other jobs redundant before.
 
flyby519
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:28 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Can someone point out to me a regional carrier who has extremely low wages? Competitive regionals carriers pay a very livable wage, even for first year FOs


Compare those wages to mainline rates and you'll see the disparity.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:29 pm

timh4000 wrote:
1st, don't shoot the messenger-

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing- ... enges.html

So why would I assume otherwise about there being a pilot shortage?

I've never hinted or attempted to give off any vibe that I am or might be a pilot. Or for that matter that I am anywhere near the knowledge of the numbers guys. That have insane amounts of facts and figures stored away for any given discussion. They know more about fleet sizes and individual tail numbers and in some cases where that particular aircraft has been.

I'm here for different reasons. For me while I do enjoy learning "some" about fleet sizes and individual airports, I'm here mostly for the overall experience of flying and learning some about the life and employment of those who get me from point A. To point B.

I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction by flight crews, pilots or F/A's. Every job has its many downsides including being a rock star or a top actor in Hollywood. Yours is no different. It often takes years to gain seniority to the point where you have some control over your career without having to make huge sacrifices. More jobs than not are this way as well.

You guys have said so yourselves, it's possible to make 200k a year ut it takes decades to get there, if you even do get there. Making half that is still well above average. I've
never once argued that you guys are over paid and that being a pilot today means pushing a few buttons and basically going for a ride. I know that you guys still have to operate the technology that allows you to take your hand off the yoke or side stick. That it can be extremely complex at times and that you guys have a great burden of responsibility of being the operator of a mass transit vehicle. Still though, I'm going to go out on the ledge and say you guys with the front row seats have just as much interest in getting back in one piece as the passengers do. Something I've reminded people a few times when they pull some strange attitude about a pilots lack of safety concern.
I've told them, you ever see them walking around checking out the plane? One person said it was all just for show. Well, that "show" isn't just aimed at passengers. They themselves are equally interested in a healthy aircraft.

I'll never argue against you that you aren't getting paid enough for what you do. Is it as glamorous as the lifestyle would appear? Probably no where near, but I've discovered along my travels in life that there is no job that is as glamorous as it appears. I would still say though that overall, your job is still better than most, so long as traveling is something you can handle.



It certainly does not take decades to make solid money at a US legacy airline. I say recently a posting over on APC that had a B717 F/O pulling down close to 200K per year. I was surprised but he kaid it out and it made sense.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:34 pm

BravoOne wrote:
timh4000 wrote:
1st, don't shoot the messenger-

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing- ... enges.html

So why would I assume otherwise about there being a pilot shortage?

I've never hinted or attempted to give off any vibe that I am or might be a pilot. Or for that matter that I am anywhere near the knowledge of the numbers guys. That have insane amounts of facts and figures stored away for any given discussion. They know more about fleet sizes and individual tail numbers and in some cases where that particular aircraft has been.

I'm here for different reasons. For me while I do enjoy learning "some" about fleet sizes and individual airports, I'm here mostly for the overall experience of flying and learning some about the life and employment of those who get me from point A. To point B.

I'm happy to be pointed in the right direction by flight crews, pilots or F/A's. Every job has its many downsides including being a rock star or a top actor in Hollywood. Yours is no different. It often takes years to gain seniority to the point where you have some control over your career without having to make huge sacrifices. More jobs than not are this way as well.

You guys have said so yourselves, it's possible to make 200k a year ut it takes decades to get there, if you even do get there. Making half that is still well above average. I've
never once argued that you guys are over paid and that being a pilot today means pushing a few buttons and basically going for a ride. I know that you guys still have to operate the technology that allows you to take your hand off the yoke or side stick. That it can be extremely complex at times and that you guys have a great burden of responsibility of being the operator of a mass transit vehicle. Still though, I'm going to go out on the ledge and say you guys with the front row seats have just as much interest in getting back in one piece as the passengers do. Something I've reminded people a few times when they pull some strange attitude about a pilots lack of safety concern.
I've told them, you ever see them walking around checking out the plane? One person said it was all just for show. Well, that "show" isn't just aimed at passengers. They themselves are equally interested in a healthy aircraft.

I'll never argue against you that you aren't getting paid enough for what you do. Is it as glamorous as the lifestyle would appear? Probably no where near, but I've discovered along my travels in life that there is no job that is as glamorous as it appears. I would still say though that overall, your job is still better than most, so long as traveling is something you can handle.



It certainly does not take decades to make solid money at a US legacy airline. I say recently a posting over on APC that had a B717 F/O pulling down close to 200K per year. I was surprised but he kaid it out and it made sense.


You do t make that working a normal schedule. You have min days off and have to live by your phone and have literally no plans except make money.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:09 pm

Well I guess the individual needs to decide what is mpst important at that particular time in his or her life.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:41 pm

I think people are overthinking things.

So many pilots got hired from the mid 80s to mid 90s, and they were all around the same age, and they're all hitting 65 around now.

That created a demand and wages (even in the regionals) are going up to compensate. I know a ton of military helo pilots in the process of getting hired for regionals with a path to the majors. These options weren't available to them until very recently, and they won't last forever

Unfortunately, it is mostly based of timing. My dad is an airline pilot and has had a great career. When I see major airline pilots complaining I can usually guess the airline they worked for and/or their hire date. It's cyclical and if you're stuck on th3 back half of the wave, life is much much different

I honestly don't think now is a good time for young people to start their aviation career, unless they're really gungho. It takes many years of training and a lot of money (unless you go military) and I think they'll miss the big hiring wave. Honestly, they needed to start 5-10 years ago, sadly. Not saying it's impossible to start now but demand will be less and your seniority will stagnate a lot lower than the guys getting hired now
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:01 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I think people are overthinking things.

So many pilots got hired from the mid 80s to mid 90s, and they were all around the same age, and they're all hitting 65 around now.

That created a demand and wages (even in the regionals) are going up to compensate. I know a ton of military helo pilots in the process of getting hired for regionals with a path to the majors. These options weren't available to them until very recently, and they won't last forever

Unfortunately, it is mostly based of timing. My dad is an airline pilot and has had a great career. When I see major airline pilots complaining I can usually guess the airline they worked for and/or their hire date. It's cyclical and if you're stuck on th3 back half of the wave, life is much much different

I honestly don't think now is a good time for young people to start their aviation career, unless they're really gungho. It takes many years of training and a lot of money (unless you go military) and I think they'll miss the big hiring wave. Honestly, they needed to start 5-10 years ago, sadly. Not saying it's impossible to start now but demand will be less and your seniority will stagnate a lot lower than the guys getting hired now


As the Chinese proverb says "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now.”

I wouldn't recommend this business to someone who doesn't absolutely love aviation and travel but there will be plenty of options outside of the legacies if the current generation misses this hiring wave.

(My flight training also was about the same as a good masters degree so it isn't completely astronomically out of the box of continuing education)
 
timh4000
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Re: Pilot shortage

Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:32 pm

1st, I hear money figures all over the place. Legacy carriers paying better is just typical economics. A 717 F/O making 200k, that's impressive. And I have no idea how the payscale and the system works. I figured just by the type of job it's in upper half of wage earners. How much exactly I never knew and don't know now.

People in general typically feel they should be paid more for the work they do. A pilot saying the same doesn't make me feel that he is greedy or ungrateful.

I feel I missed my calling not being a pilot as my interest in aviation has grown. I've always had an interest, knew more than the average person even though I've typically not been a frequent flyer. I have learned a lot more being on this forum, although there's so many differing ideas, predictions of the future. The Boeing vs Airbus thing which to me I find kinda silly. I root for them both to do well and I don't mind riding on either of them.

The idea of being a pilot, the money would not be the 1st reason for me to be one. Again, simply figuring it would be somewhere where living a middle class lifestyle wouldn't be hard to do. I think most can acquire the physical skills to actually operate a plane. Not saying it's easy, just saying if a person is willing to work hard at it they should be able to proficiently fly a plane. The other factors, being good with computers and technology. Cool under pressure. And the ability to function flying all hours of the day and night and dealing with jet lag. Or does time become meaningless other than when to show up? Those things are more the x-factor. In truth I may or may not be able to meet the x factors. But, had I feel then as I do now, I would sure as heck give it a try.

the op, which I'm as guilty for side tracking my own thread, but there seems to be a lot of differing opinions on. I just know that I've had a cancelled flight due to not having an available crew. And then I see articles like the one I posted. Tbh, I haven't even read it. Just the title of article of a legacy CEO on CNBC with pilot shortage as the topic, I'm going to assume based on personal experience and just the title alone with a CEO on CNBC. I'm fairly certain there's something to that.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 153
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Re: Pilot shortage

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:06 pm

Max Q wrote:
reltney wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Lots of doom and gloom and frankly very inaccurate information here

Working as a pilot for one of the big three US majors currently is as good as it gets


I can only speak personally for United whose Pilots are enjoying just about the best pay and benefits the industry has ever seen

And about time, we’ve been through the wringer in this industry


Lots of understandable bitterness about the past but this is a new golden age for major US airline pilots



My benefits as a pilot at one of the 3 big US carriers is 1/2 of what it was when I was hired in 96’. Yes, 1/2. Indisputable and documented.

I love my job/career. I am a pilot and envy no one, however the career is not what is was and that’s life. Time to move forward but I won’t forget when one prints false info about a career they have no part of...



Don’t know the specifics of your career or which airline you work for

I started with Continental in 1987, so my path was a little different than yours

Pilots of my seniority had more than our share of hardship I can tell you, it finally worked out but you never know

You say your benefits are half what they used to be but dont describe what that is exactly

With the excellent contracts in place at all the big three in the US and your 22 years seniority I suspect that more than compensates



You are about the only person I've heard say they thought the current contracts are "excellent". Besides hourly rates (and once adjusted for inflation, the current rates aren't much, if at all better than mid 80's rates) I cant find one thing that's better in our current contract.

Post 9/11, we lost the A and B retirement funds, retiree medical and substantial sick time. As well as massive increases in health insurance costs, with huge reductions in benefits. FAR 117, coupled with the gutting of work rules has led to horrible trips, and increased work days per month.

At 20 years, I am a very junior narrow body captain. I get to enjoy five day trips, with layovers south of the border in hotels that have walls and armed guards, I've held vacation when my kids were also on vacation exactly twice, and I've worked all but three major holidays in those 20 years, not to mention the majority of weekends. Yes, I make reasonable money, but the QOL has done nothing but go down since I started.
 
BA777FO
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Re: Pilot shortage

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:31 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
At 20 years, I am a very junior narrow body captain. I get to enjoy five day trips, with layovers south of the border in hotels that have walls and armed guards, I've held vacation when my kids were also on vacation exactly twice, and I've worked all but three major holidays in those 20 years, not to mention the majority of weekends. Yes, I make reasonable money, but the QOL has done nothing but go down since I started.


This is a bit of a debate at our airline, especially since we moved from line bidding PBS. Junior pilots are getting some terrible rosters. The overriding feeling though is that you're only forced to be junior once. If QOL is that important, being a senior FO rather than a junior captain (especially relatively senior longhaul FO vs junior short haul captain) may be worth the extra money you forego.

I could bid for an A320 command now but have chosen to stay long haul as an FO, largely due to perverse tax implications in the UK, but the quality of life I have now far outweighs what extra money a short haul command would be worth. It's astounding that every long haul FO position went more senior in our latest fleet bids than short haul commands. Lifestyle is winning more and more now.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Pilot shortage

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:08 am

BA777FO wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
At 20 years, I am a very junior narrow body captain. I get to enjoy five day trips, with layovers south of the border in hotels that have walls and armed guards, I've held vacation when my kids were also on vacation exactly twice, and I've worked all but three major holidays in those 20 years, not to mention the majority of weekends. Yes, I make reasonable money, but the QOL has done nothing but go down since I started.


This is a bit of a debate at our airline, especially since we moved from line bidding PBS. Junior pilots are getting some terrible rosters. The overriding feeling though is that you're only forced to be junior once. If QOL is that important, being a senior FO rather than a junior captain (especially relatively senior longhaul FO vs junior short haul captain) may be worth the extra money you forego.

I could bid for an A320 command now but have chosen to stay long haul as an FO, largely due to perverse tax implications in the UK, but the quality of life I have now far outweighs what extra money a short haul command would be worth. It's astounding that every long haul FO position went more senior in our latest fleet bids than short haul commands. Lifestyle is winning more and more now.


I would have loved to have been a wide body FO, but I held narrow body CA two years before I could even hold large wide body FO. At my shop, all of the senior wide body FO's have been, or could be captains, many of them could hold wide body captain. I've considered bidding back, but I'd be stuck there for at least two years, and by then I'll have reasonable QOL where I am. PBS is pretty horrible for anyone below 70% seniority in seat here.

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