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xwb777
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Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:42 pm

Etihad Airways, the national airline of Abu dhabi, has stated that it is interested in investing in Air India, the national airline of India.

Along Etihad, Indigo, an Indian LCC, has also shown interest in rescuing Air India. This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm.

Etihad which is financial troubles has previously invested in Air Berlin, Jet Airways and Alitalia, in addition to other carriers. If EY wants to invest in Air India, they are allowed up to 49% stake and must have an Indian partner.

Indigo is India’s largest airline by available weekly seats. Indigo offers a total of 1,856,652 seats per week. This will enable the airline to strengthen its position in the Indian market.

Who will be the winner is this case? Etihad or Indigo.

Source: Simple flying
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
boeing773er
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:07 pm

Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.
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proudavgeek
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:10 pm

boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.


I really doubt it this time, GOI has gone on the record to say that they want to disinvest from AI for good.. and this is the 2nd time the sale effort will be done so I dont think GOI wants a mop on its face this time...
 
raylee67
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:10 pm

boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.

It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:11 pm

Indian aviation is the last place anyone should invest. It is destined to be a failure. Failing financial system, archaic rules, government favoritism and unknown economic growth/slowdown/collapse are a few reasons. IMHO, it is better to shuldown AI and let foreign carriers provide international service and leave domestic to local LCCs. AFAIK, Indigo is not on DGCA/MoCA's fav list. Any move by Indigo to get bigger will not be greeted with grace by current government.
All posts are just opinions.
 
fiestyemus
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:15 pm

raylee67 wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.

It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.

Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.
 
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zeke
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Indian aviation is the last place anyone should invest.


It would be like buying the worst house in a good location.
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zeke
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:19 pm

fiestyemus wrote:
Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.


I don’t know the Indian Law in relation to international airline status, it will either require majority Indian (not necessarily Indian Government) ownership and/or principle place of business in India to remain an Indian carrier.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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RWA380
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:22 pm

fiestyemus wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.

It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.

Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.


The OP clearly stated that the Government wants 100% privatization, the only caveat is at least 51% of the carrier must be owned by an Indian business, not by the government & that, is quite typical worldwide.

From the OP cut & paste quoted - "This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm"
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Motorhussy
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:31 pm

EY investment in other airlines has been their kiss of death.

But seriously, why not both Indigo and Etihad?
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:39 pm

RWA380 wrote:
the only caveat is at least 51% of the carrier must be owned by an Indian business, not by the government & that, is quite typical worldwide.


AFAIK, India allows 100% FDI in aviation, as long as 51% is held by a foreign non-aviation entity, like a PE or sovereign fund. Etihad 49% + UAE Sovereign Fund 51% (or) SIA 49% + Temasek Holdings 51% (or) Delta 49% + 51% PE.

Of course, Subramanian Swamy will file a public litigation suit as soon as someone sings LOI. He has all the court documents filled out, just needs the defendants' names.

FDI - Foreign Direct Investment
PE - Private Equity
SIA - Singapore International Airlines
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All posts are just opinions.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:52 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
the only caveat is at least 51% of the carrier must be owned by an Indian business, not by the government & that, is quite typical worldwide.


AFAIK, India allows 100% FDI in aviation, as long as 51% is held by a foreign non-aviation entity, like a PE or sovereign fund. Etihad 49% + UAE Sovereign Fund 51% (or) SIA 49% + Temasek Holdings 51% (or) Delta 49% + 51% PE.

Of course, Subramanian Swamy will file a public litigation suit as soon as someone sings LOI. He has all the court documents filled out, just needs the defendants' names.

Can you please say that again without all the abbreviations? FDI? PE? SIA?
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:39 pm

GOI knows that 100% FDI is necessary to divest AI. They need to make it happen.

https://www.itln.in/india-may-allow-100 ... ruary-2020

That Simple Flying article is so poorly thought out and written. Indigo is not going to touch AI, nor would Tata. They are not in the business of flying full-service Long Haul flights, and they need to run finically responsible, which AI would risk all of that. Likely it would be something like Abu Dubai or Qatar taking that on because they could feed money into AI and not need to worry about investors or short term results. I think with 100% FDI, you will have groups show up like IAG or AF/KLM that might throw their names in the hat now.
 
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stl07
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:48 pm

So it's starting to get a little worrisome when your best domestic carrier is part of Singapore airlines and your flag carrier may become part of eithhad. But then again, the aviation industry in many developing countries in Africa and Asia are run by foreign countries who want to buy influence so it wouldn't be too unique. And if the service is far better and cheaper, as it is on Vistara, why not?
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Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:56 pm

I think it depends on what happens to overall Indian economy, which has been a mystery to many. Last month air traffic grew by 11%. Was it a blip or indication of healthy double digit growth, no one knows.

I still don't understand why AI still incurring losses if half of the debt is cleared ie., moved to a special purpose vehicle(conflicting reports). I think government is playing a double game, if a friend comes along, debt will be cleared and a clean debt free AI will be handed over on a platter, otherwise it will continue to be drowned in debt until it shut down.

IMHO, GOI wants to shutdown AI to help SpiceJet. The only way SG can grow is to capture whatever 10+% domestic market share AI has as organic growth is doubtful. Nothing more.
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SQ22
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:00 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Etihad Airways, the national airline of Abu dhabi, has stated that it is interested in investing in Air India, the national airline of India.

Along Etihad, Indigo, an Indian LCC, has also shown interest in rescuing Air India. This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm.

Etihad which is financial troubles has previously invested in Air Berlin, Jet Airways and Alitalia, in addition to other carriers. If EY wants to invest in Air India, they are allowed up to 49% stake and must have an Indian partner.

Indigo is India’s largest airline by available weekly seats. Indigo offers a total of 1,856,652 seats per week. This will enable the airline to strengthen its position in the Indian market.

Who will be the winner is this case? Etihad or Indigo.

Source: Simple flying


Here is a link to that article:

https://simpleflying.com/etihad-indigo- ... ia-rescue/
 
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proudavgeek
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:12 pm

fiestyemus wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.

It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.

Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.


Exactly.. and Indigo management is not naive to show interest in a venture where GOI will call the shots!! I think GOI wants an indian investor with 51% control to ensure indian ownership, not a GOI ownership..
 
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proudavgeek
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:14 pm

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Indian aviation is the last place anyone should invest.


It would be like buying the worst house in a good location.


Haha, very good analogy, its like buying a house mainly for the piece of land, then gutting the house and doing a new construction..something similar will be needed with AI as well. The infrastructure, aircrafts, pilots, slots at various congested airports (indian and international) can be the piece of land....

Fingers crossed...
 
EChid
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:20 pm

zeke wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Indian aviation is the last place anyone should invest.


It would be like buying the worst house in a good location.

Nah, that implies being able to either take down the house or improve it, neither of which seems feasible for AI.

It's more like buying the worst house in a good location and having said house classified as an unrepairable, unimprovable, historical landmark that must be reserved but unchanged is any significant way.
 
avier
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:38 pm

The best option remains to sell it in parts. The govt. wasn't, and isn't yet, keen to do that for whatever reasons they know why.

The Govt. also plans to have 100% FDI in aviation, as mentioned on the link by @YouGeeElWhy. This will make a lot more sense for buyers to grab the airline.

The parts of the airline operations that should be sold off separately are :
AI Domestic : all A320 family ops
AI Int'l Long haul : all WB ops. ie Boeing 787/777
AI Int'l Short haul (AI Express) : all 737 ops
AI Regional : ATR ops. ]

Other:
MRO
AI-Sats ground handling

IndiGo has time and again evinced interest for the long haul WB ops only.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:35 pm

avier wrote:
The govt. wasn't, and isn't yet, keen to do that for whatever reasons they know why.


That means separating books, and revealing GoI's bad deeds which lead to current status to the public. Bundling is the best option to remain opaque and cry foul same time. Works for governments and corporations.

If I have to hazard a guess, WB/International ops is the worst in terms of debt and costs. If GoI reveals true numbers, all other employees will jump on GoI to split them from AI(Int).
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bravotango75
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:51 pm

Seriously, AZ, Air Berlin, Alitalia.....not exactly a great score card, might want to address their own financial shortcomings first.
 
xwb777
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:27 pm

SQ22 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Etihad Airways, the national airline of Abu dhabi, has stated that it is interested in investing in Air India, the national airline of India.

Along Etihad, Indigo, an Indian LCC, has also shown interest in rescuing Air India. This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm.

Etihad which is financial troubles has previously invested in Air Berlin, Jet Airways and Alitalia, in addition to other carriers. If EY wants to invest in Air India, they are allowed up to 49% stake and must have an Indian partner.

Indigo is India’s largest airline by available weekly seats. Indigo offers a total of 1,856,652 seats per week. This will enable the airline to strengthen its position in the Indian market.

Who will be the winner is this case? Etihad or Indigo.

Source: Simple flying


Here is a link to that article:

https://simpleflying.com/etihad-indigo- ... ia-rescue/


Than you! I have copied it and forgot to paste it :)
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:30 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
EY investment in other airlines has been their kiss of death.

But seriously, why not both Indigo and Etihad?

Apparently they didn't learn from Alitalia. There is no chance the GoI won't interfere with AI post sale, e.g., right sizing the staffing, work rules, and yield management will be mucked with.

I would laugh if Etihad hadn't already destroyed their global position with the equity partner fiasco.

I couldn't reform AI. It would, in my opinion, be better to start a new airline or buy into a smaller less loss making Indian airline (e.g., GoAir).

Lightsaber
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Scotron12
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:38 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
EY investment in other airlines has been their kiss of death.

But seriously, why not both Indigo and Etihad?

Apparently they didn't learn from Alitalia. There is no chance the GoI won't interfere with AI post sale, e.g., right sizing the staffing, work rules, and yield management will be mucked with.

I would laugh if Etihad hadn't already destroyed their global position with the equity partner fiasco.

I couldn't reform AI. It would, in my opinion, be better to start a new airline or buy into a smaller less loss making Indian airline (e.g., GoAir).

Lightsaber


Totally baffles me too as to why EY would even think of this. Unless it's their attempt to get more service to India...nah...even that doesn't make sense. Unless they have money to burn. Oil is trading close to $70bbl...and Abu Dhabi controls a lot of it?
 
747megatop
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:39 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Etihad Airways, the national airline of Abu dhabi, has stated that it is interested in investing in Air India, the national airline of India.

Along Etihad, Indigo, an Indian LCC, has also shown interest in rescuing Air India. This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm.

Etihad which is financial troubles has previously invested in Air Berlin, Jet Airways and Alitalia, in addition to other carriers. If EY wants to invest in Air India, they are allowed up to 49% stake and must have an Indian partner.

Indigo is India’s largest airline by available weekly seats. Indigo offers a total of 1,856,652 seats per week. This will enable the airline to strengthen its position in the Indian market.

Who will be the winner is this case? Etihad or Indigo.

Source: Simple flying

Why would Etihad want to rescue the sick man of Indian aviation? And, would rescuing mean that EY funnels all passengers via AUH?
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:41 pm

If Etihad does this, their management should be taken behind the barn and shot. "Rescue" and "Air India" are two things that do not belong in the same sentence.

This is the dumbest idea I have heard all year and it's only the second day of 2020.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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MoKa777
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:08 pm

Just sit down Etihad...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
MCTSET
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:11 pm

People are asking why EY is interested in AI given their track record, it’s simply political by the looks of it. A great way for the UAE to show support to GoI by buying there junk airline and letting them clean their hands.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:14 pm

I assume this really just about finding a way to feed more passengers to Abu Dhabi for them to connect elsewhere. Didn't they lose a bunch of that when Jet went under?
 
IWMBH
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:15 pm

Wouldn’t be to happy if EY got involved if I was working at Air India, just ask the employees of Air Berlin.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:56 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
I assume this really just about finding a way to feed more passengers to Abu Dhabi for them to connect elsewhere. Didn't they lose a bunch of that when Jet went under?


Just selling Etihad, Air Arabia(AUH) and WizzAir(AUH) on same itinerary is the best and cost effective solution to grab maximum market share Indian international air traffic. Fuel tankering, return catering and turn around crew are the best business practices. Only couple of stations may exceed flight duty limits.

Any footprint in India is a regulatory nightmare and a money pit.
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dcajet
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:08 pm

Etihad and rescue in the same sentence? Be afraid Air India, very afraid...
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:38 am

Etihad has a record of failed investments. Indian aviation has a record of being a money pit. If this isn’t flirting with disaster, I don’t know what is.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
EY investment in other airlines has been their kiss of death.

But seriously, why not both Indigo and Etihad?

Apparently they didn't learn from Alitalia. There is no chance the GoI won't interfere with AI post sale, e.g., right sizing the staffing, work rules, and yield management will be mucked with.

I would laugh if Etihad hadn't already destroyed their global position with the equity partner fiasco.

I couldn't reform AI. It would, in my opinion, be better to start a new airline or buy into a smaller less loss making Indian airline (e.g., GoAir).

Lightsaber


Staffing may not be such an issue; AI hasn’t hired anyone in a while. Lot of the current unproductive staff are probably close to retirement.
 
oceanvikram
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:57 am

Here we go again …

So when Aviation Minister Hardeep Puri says, “Air India is a first class airline, but there are no two views that privatisation has to be done. We are not slaves of certain deadlines …”, there are 2 (off) contradictions in the statement.
    To think that Air India is a first class airline. The service is no better than any other airline and as a business … well we all know where that is.
    The goal is to privatise the airline but without deadline … ever heard of SMART goals? (But then maybe I should not be so harsh since all ministers around the world do this.)

The shear arrogance of Indian government/s is reflective of the Indian society in that they think their value proposition is equivalent to the Western/Japanese standards and should be rewarded as such. So at the end of the day I doubt Air India will be privatised during my lifetime.

The reasons I can think of Etihad interest in Air India is:
    Abu Dhabi/UAE want to get into the good books of the Indian government when further entities are divested … Bharat Petroleum!
    Abu Dhabi/UAE dislike of the Qatari government which manifests to dislike Qatar Airways.

If looking at the big big picture beyond aviation, Etihad’s interest makes sense.

And IndiGo like others have posted:
    International routes.
    Substantial and relatively new widebody fleet.

Makes sense and the Indian market is such that they are the only ones willing to fly Delhi - San Francisco nonstop on a LCC.

The only beneficiaries of the current exercise are McKinsey, BCG, Bain, EY, KPMG, Deloitte, PWC, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and/or JP Morgan.
My comments are based as an aviation enthusiast first, then as a passenger who paid for his own ticket, after that a passenger on a business trip and finally an armchair CEO.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:05 am

vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
EY investment in other airlines has been their kiss of death.

But seriously, why not both Indigo and Etihad?

Apparently they didn't learn from Alitalia. There is no chance the GoI won't interfere with AI post sale, e.g., right sizing the staffing, work rules, and yield management will be mucked with.

I would laugh if Etihad hadn't already destroyed their global position with the equity partner fiasco.

I couldn't reform AI. It would, in my opinion, be better to start a new airline or buy into a smaller less loss making Indian airline (e.g., GoAir).

Lightsaber


Staffing may not be such an issue; AI hasn’t hired anyone in a while. Lot of the current unproductive staff are probably close to retirement.

Then please explain AI's continued loses. CAPA drastically reduced expected profit in India due to low expected yield.
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.livemint ... 80956.html

Let us put it this way, with AI for sale, if results were good, we would see quarterly reports to aid the sale. Instead, silence.

My investment advice is run from any investment Etihad is making. Their history of imploded airlines is legendary: Air Berlin and Alitalia were spectacular losses.

The strength of the unions at AI alone would drive me away. India is a notoriously low premium market.

AI is losing 20 to 26 crore per day.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-ind ... er-2157001

In other words, $2.8 to 3.6 million usd per day, or a rate of about a billion usd per year. After a decade of attempts to turn around...

Yea, Etihad will lose a few billion more. Par for their investments.

Lighter
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VTORD
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:24 am

dcajet wrote:
Etihad and rescue in the same sentence? Be afraid Air India, very afraid...

I see your point but I must say that when the dust settles on this IF (and this is like the biggest, best if) it goes through, I am not entirely sure who is going to need the rescuing!

On a serious note, I really don't think this is going to happen. It's just some over imaginative GoI babu feeding the press (I read this on ET) something to write. We can all relax.
 
Antarius
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:31 am

sonicruiser wrote:
Etihad has a record of failed investments. Indian aviation has a record of being a money pit. If this isn’t flirting with disaster, I don’t know what is.


It is the perfect politically savvy way to kill off Air India. Can't shut it down, so sell it to EY and watch it fail.
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:54 am

As much as a basket case that AI seems to be, I can't help but think that the brand "Air India" is more valuable than the airline. To that extent, if an Indian carrier buys into the stake and amalgamates, while retaining the old brand, it may not be a bad idea as such. I guess that the merged entity of AI+ IAC has done better in terms of safety and service than during their separate days. So, shorn of government regulations, the employees may yet offer some promise.
 
myki
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:57 am

What about QR in all of this?

Could it be to push up a potential price in saying EY are interested so QR better get in quick and pay a bit more? With their limitied Qatar-India rights, this gets a few more seats from the India side in to Qatar. Also helps them to kick a man while he's down re EY.

Alternatively, a good investment for QR? Again, not only more seats on India-Qatar, if that fills up QR seats to USA/Canada, could then use MXP as hub, throw a few more AI seats in to MXP from places other than DEL (e.g. BOM, BLR, etc.) and then put pax on to IG for MXP-JFK/YYZ/SFO/etc.

My $0.02
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:40 am

lightsaber wrote:
vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
...... GoI won't interfere with AI post sale, e.g., right sizing the staffing, work rules, and yield management will be mucked with.
.......


Staffing may not be such an issue; AI hasn’t hired anyone in a while. Lot of the current unproductive staff are probably close to retirement.


Then please explain AI's continued loses. CAPA drastically reduced expected profit in India due to low expected yield.
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.livemint ... 80956.html

Let us put it this way, with AI for sale, if results were good, we would see quarterly reports to aid the sale. Instead, silence.

Lighter


What bearing does CAPA report have on this? You rightly questioned AI's bloated labor force. To which I responded, most of the slate will get cleaned as the workers approach mandatory retirement. Yes, this has not come a day too soon but these excess' occured over 20 yrs ago.
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:43 am

The ME3 are infatuated with developing their respective hubs. Perhaps they see it as an alternative to Oil revenue. Whatever their reason.

AI is a sure ticket to create bank's of flights to their hub cities. Only problem is that AI is also saddled with a bloated wide-body fleet that will be of little use between India and ME. Hence this makes no sense.
 
sibibom
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:43 am

Air India is a basket case, Etihad's track record of turning around distressed airlines is abysmal. You would think it is a foregone conclusion.

But then there is Indigo (who have mostly been a professionally run airline so far), and the fact that Air India has an okayish fleet (Widebody are newish and continue for another 10 years, they need narrowbodies though), they have prime slots, they have all necessary infrastructure (though some need modernization). There is a silver of chance it might be hope here.

I say 90% doom, 10% miracle.
 
sabby
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:48 am

sibibom wrote:
Air India is a basket case, Etihad's track record of turning around distressed airlines is abysmal. You would think it is a foregone conclusion.

But then there is Indigo (who have mostly been a professionally run airline so far), and the fact that Air India has an okayish fleet (Widebody are newish and continue for another 10 years, they need narrowbodies though), they have prime slots, they have all necessary infrastructure (though some need modernization). There is a silver of chance it might be hope here.

I say 90% doom, 10% miracle.


They have a brand new A320neo fleet and the A319 & A321 fleet are 10-12 years old. Their main need is proper restructuring of routes and workforces and improve service and aircraft interior condition on the long haul routes.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:15 am

vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
vadodara wrote:

Staffing may not be such an issue; AI hasn’t hired anyone in a while. Lot of the current unproductive staff are probably close to retirement.


Then please explain AI's continued loses. CAPA drastically reduced expected profit in India due to low expected yield.
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.livemint ... 80956.html

Let us put it this way, with AI for sale, if results were good, we would see quarterly reports to aid the sale. Instead, silence.

Lighter


What bearing does CAPA report have on this? You rightly questioned AI's bloated labor force. To which I responded, most of the slate will get cleaned as the workers approach mandatory retirement. Yes, this has not come a day too soon but these excess' occured over 20 yrs ago.

The CAPA report shows how tough Indian aviation is. You neglected to quote the 20 to 26 crore losses per day ($2.8 to $3.6 million usd). That isn't a trivial amount to correct.

A workforce that is bloated is not easy to fix. You do not suddenly one day have 5 people doing the work of 8.

I do not know how to fix AI. With Etihad's record, neither do they.

AI's biggest issue is being staffed for the fleet flying and so many aircraft sitting idle.

Etihad itself lost $4.8 Billion in 3 years:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... hree-years

"Etihad Airways posted a loss of $1.28 billion in 2018, extending the deficit over three years to $4.8 billion, as the Gulf carrier pushes ahead with a cost-cutting plan to stabilize the balance sheet."

Even Abu Dhabi has cash flow limits. I do not think they can afford to take on AI.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
sibibom
Posts: 464
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:18 am

sabby wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Air India is a basket case, Etihad's track record of turning around distressed airlines is abysmal. You would think it is a foregone conclusion.

But then there is Indigo (who have mostly been a professionally run airline so far), and the fact that Air India has an okayish fleet (Widebody are newish and continue for another 10 years, they need narrowbodies though), they have prime slots, they have all necessary infrastructure (though some need modernization). There is a silver of chance it might be hope here.

I say 90% doom, 10% miracle.


They have a brand new A320neo fleet and the A319 & A321 fleet are 10-12 years old. Their main need is proper restructuring of routes and workforces and improve service and aircraft interior condition on the long haul routes.


Apparent 15-20 narrowbodies are grounded most MX or engine issues. They have no plans for growth, where competition has been growing for the last 10 years, and orders suggest they will continue to grow.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Then please explain AI's continued loses. CAPA drastically reduced expected profit in India due to low expected yield.
https://www.bing.com/amp/s/www.livemint ... 80956.html

Let us put it this way, with AI for sale, if results were good, we would see quarterly reports to aid the sale. Instead, silence.

Lighter


What bearing does CAPA report have on this? You rightly questioned AI's bloated labor force. To which I responded, most of the slate will get cleaned as the workers approach mandatory retirement. Yes, this has not come a day too soon but these excess' occured over 20 yrs ago.

The CAPA report shows how tough Indian aviation is. You neglected to quote the 20 to 26 crore losses per day ($2.8 to $3.6 million usd). That isn't a trivial amount to correct.

A workforce that is bloated is not easy to fix. You do not suddenly one day have 5 people doing the work of 8.

I do not know how to fix AI. With Etihad's record, neither do they.

AI's biggest issue is being staffed for the fleet flying and so many aircraft sitting idle.

Etihad itself lost $4.8 Billion in 3 years:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... hree-years

"Etihad Airways posted a loss of $1.28 billion in 2018, extending the deficit over three years to $4.8 billion, as the Gulf carrier pushes ahead with a cost-cutting plan to stabilize the balance sheet."

Even Abu Dhabi has cash flow limits. I do not think they can afford to take on AI.

Lightsaber

Vadodara:
This CAPA link has a better table. AI is expected to lose $500 million of the $600 million in expected losses for Indian aviation:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/airli ... 0.ece/amp/

SpiceJet is entering long haul. I doubt the brutal competition will end in India.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
raylee67
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:09 am

fiestyemus wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
boeing773er wrote:
Neither, the GoI will find some compelling reason to keep AI in government control.

It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.

Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.

Um... that was just a sarcastic joke.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
jghealey
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:37 am

Are they serious, especially after what happened with Jet Airways also in India (and obviously all the rest)...

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