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vhtje
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:58 am

Looking at how well EY has 'rescued' other airlines they have invested in, if this goes ahead, will it be the sounding of the death knell for Air India?

Run, AI, run.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:09 am

EY along with SQ also screwed up VA back in the day.

Having a "big spending" former CEO regularly called out for having an "ego" at VA along with other "egos" from the then-CEOs of the shareholders (the 'other' shareholders egos also included the former NZ ceo), which combined with the pointless capacity war with "QF" didn't help things either.

In other words, too many "fingers" in the pie (having to deal with other shareholders) in regards to EY's involvement in VA.

VA's ownership structure is not likely to change anytime soon, nor are the remaining shareholders, most of which have debt issues of their own (including EY), are willing to go "hands-on" in VA for the foreseeable future, chosing to deal with their own financial problems.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:52 pm

This is obviously going to end well.

IndiGo is always just talk when it comes to these things.
Vahroone
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Vadodara:
This CAPA link has a better table. AI is expected to lose $500 million of the $600 million in expected losses for Indian aviation:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/airli ... 0.ece/amp/

SpiceJet is entering long haul. I doubt the brutal competition will end in India.

Lightsaber


2 points:
Indian market will continue to grow. Since govt. does not allow additional ME3 services, it is giving Indian metal a chance to capture this market. Hence any and all are throwing capacity.
The existing LH airlines (AI and the defunct Jet) are not really benefitting because they have too many wide-bodies that require people to make a trip to mostly BOM or DEL. Most Indians seem to prefer not to.

Hence, what I see is happening will be growth in services in a southern arc from the Gulf, to E Africa, the islands and S. E. Asia. Due to political problems with Pakistan, growth to countries in Europe will be hampered especially from N. India.

Back to the point, in this scenario, someone who might like AI's brand and slots may want to pick them up for some p2p services from say India to UK for instance. But upside is very limited.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:29 pm

vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Vadodara:
This CAPA link has a better table. AI is expected to lose $500 million of the $600 million in expected losses for Indian aviation:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/airli ... 0.ece/amp/

SpiceJet is entering long haul. I doubt the brutal competition will end in India.

Lightsaber


2 points:
Indian market will continue to grow. Since govt. does not allow additional ME3 services, it is giving Indian metal a chance to capture this market. Hence any and all are throwing capacity.
The existing LH airlines (AI and the defunct Jet) are not really benefitting because they have too many wide-bodies that require people to make a trip to mostly BOM or DEL. Most Indians seem to prefer not to.

Hence, what I see is happening will be growth in services in a southern arc from the Gulf, to E Africa, the islands and S. E. Asia. Due to political problems with Pakistan, growth to countries in Europe will be hampered especially from N. India.

Back to the point, in this scenario, someone who might like AI's brand and slots may want to pick them up for some p2p services from say India to UK for instance. But upside is very limited.


I disagree. AI’s DEL hub is working. Plenty of pax seem to have no issue connecting there. Add to that O&D flights that AI offers from other cities in India, I think AI is doing a pretty good job of offering a range of flights. I think the big takeaway after Jet’s demise has been that foreign airlines seems to want to add DEL, BOM and BLR long haul. Even HYD seems to not have enough premium demand to see airlines launch long haul.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:00 pm

^
AI is "working" operationally per what you described. AI's problem is its bank-owned debt and its bloated employee expenses that keep them from "working" profitably, which any private market company would want before they would consider buying AI.

GOI could do something about the bloated employee/retiree expenses, but the debt is more complicated. Many of the Indian Banks that own that debt are staying afloat with the money they make from the AI debt. Unwinding that rats nest is going to be critical to this ever moving forward.
Last edited by YouGeeElWhy on Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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yowza
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:04 pm

EY has never met a basket case airline it didn't want to throw piles of money at. And they have failed to do sensible with any such ventures...
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:29 pm

Could IndiGo buy it to close it down and take their slots/rights etc and use what aircraft they need to do so? Also, sign on AI staff in the new structure under new 21st century contracts and so on.
come visit the south pacific
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:16 pm

AI Group probably less than 9000 employees, many are ready to retire. Rest are contract employees, can be fired anytime.

Shutdown is probably easier than ever even if government assumes full retirement benefit responsibilities.

The only negative is loss of interest revenue stream to public sector banks. Maybe few more bank mergers in order to cover up the losses.
All posts are just opinions.
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:44 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Vadodara:
This CAPA link has a better table. AI is expected to lose $500 million of the $600 million in expected losses for Indian aviation:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/airli ... 0.ece/amp/

SpiceJet is entering long haul. I doubt the brutal competition will end in India.

Lightsaber


2 points:
Indian market will continue to grow. Since govt. does not allow additional ME3 services, it is giving Indian metal a chance to capture this market. Hence any and all are throwing capacity.
The existing LH airlines (AI and the defunct Jet) are not really benefitting because they have too many wide-bodies that require people to make a trip to mostly BOM or DEL. Most Indians seem to prefer not to.

Hence, what I see is happening will be growth in services in a southern arc from the Gulf, to E Africa, the islands and S. E. Asia. Due to political problems with Pakistan, growth to countries in Europe will be hampered especially from N. India.

Back to the point, in this scenario, someone who might like AI's brand and slots may want to pick them up for some p2p services from say India to UK for instance. But upside is very limited.


I disagree. AI’s DEL hub is working. Plenty of pax seem to have no issue connecting there. Add to that O&D flights that AI offers from other cities in India, I think AI is doing a pretty good job of offering a range of flights. I think the big takeaway after Jet’s demise has been that foreign airlines seems to want to add DEL, BOM and BLR long haul. Even HYD seems to not have enough premium demand to see airlines launch long haul.


Again you can critically analyze the CAPA report and the ‘lack’ of AI buyers.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:51 pm

They should probably rescue themselves before trying to rescue anyone else, they already "rescued" Jet Airways.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:44 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
vadodara wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Vadodara:
This CAPA link has a better table. AI is expected to lose $500 million of the $600 million in expected losses for Indian aviation:

https://www.thehindu.com/business/airli ... 0.ece/amp/

SpiceJet is entering long haul. I doubt the brutal competition will end in India.

Lightsaber


2 points:
Indian market will continue to grow. Since govt. does not allow additional ME3 services, it is giving Indian metal a chance to capture this market. Hence any and all are throwing capacity.
The existing LH airlines (AI and the defunct Jet) are not really benefitting because they have too many wide-bodies that require people to make a trip to mostly BOM or DEL. Most Indians seem to prefer not to.

Hence, what I see is happening will be growth in services in a southern arc from the Gulf, to E Africa, the islands and S. E. Asia. Due to political problems with Pakistan, growth to countries in Europe will be hampered especially from N. India.

Back to the point, in this scenario, someone who might like AI's brand and slots may want to pick them up for some p2p services from say India to UK for instance. But upside is very limited.


I disagree. AI’s DEL hub is working. Plenty of pax seem to have no issue connecting there. Add to that O&D flights that AI offers from other cities in India, I think AI is doing a pretty good job of offering a range of flights. I think the big takeaway after Jet’s demise has been that foreign airlines seems to want to add DEL, BOM and BLR long haul. Even HYD seems to not have enough premium demand to see airlines launch long haul.

AI does have a strong loyalty. My future-cousin-in-law is handling tickets for his relatives to get to his wedding with my cousin, and they're likely to take AI to ORD from DEL; despite me telling them to do a multi-city on AC to DTW/MKE via YYZ, since the drive from ORD to DTW/MSN is long. (Four hours down I-94 to DTW; three hours to MSN up I-90)
Pakistani American born and raised near CHI (ORD/MDW). Relatives are from both India and Pakistan
 
VTORD
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:23 am

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
I disagree. AI’s DEL hub is working. Plenty of pax seem to have no issue connecting there. Add to that O&D flights that AI offers from other cities in India, I think AI is doing a pretty good job of offering a range of flights. I think the big takeaway after Jet’s demise has been that foreign airlines seems to want to add DEL, BOM and BLR long haul. Even HYD seems to not have enough premium demand to see airlines launch long haul.


Again you can critically analyze the CAPA report and the ‘lack’ of AI buyers.


I don't see how lack of AI buyers has anything to do with flying through BOM/DEL. If anything those are prime slots at premium traffic airports in India so they are the few remaining selling points for a money pit. The financial hole that AI has been pushed into over a span of 15 years is so deep, all their operational advantages (which are very recent) we talk about get negated in any valuation in acquiring them. I think I would reword what you said about connecting in BOM/DEL - "significant" (not most) number of people prefer not to connect in BOM/DEL. I am one of those. Hence ME3 operating secondary Indian cities. Caliguy makes a good point: AI operationally from their DEL hub provide pretty decent options.

I know this is anecdotal but I am trying to book an itinerary for my parents in the summer from India to IND which includes a sidebar trip to LHR. Given the two O&D airports involved, there are very few good options. For them living in a tertiary airport like BDQ, AI is the best option because that means they don't take a 2 hr cab ride to AMD or get on 6E to BOM/DEL with the hassle of domestic luggage, long layover etc.,. AI is offering extremely convenient connecting times outbound to LHR and inbound from ORD. AI is actually a bit pricey but I think the trade-off is good from a pov of time table. Same for my PNQ-based friends.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:30 am

EY has "rescued" Air Berlin, Alitalia, and Jet Airways. In many ways, those were easier rescues than AI.

How is their a business case for this?
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
bostrv
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:34 am

In some conditions, AI is the only airline that has a decent fare - I have not flown AI internationally since EK started flying to TRV. Now that the kids are older, we take a break in Europe on the way to a summer vacation. Trying to find a MAD-TRV-FCO ticket, and AI is half the price of EU competitors. AI's non stop TRV-DEL doesnt connect that well to the EU flights, but there is a TRV-COK-DEL flight that is workable.

I do agree that the hub in DEL is working.
 
vadodara
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:44 am

VTORD wrote:
I don't see how lack of AI buyers has anything to do with flying through BOM/DEL.

I think I would reword what you said about connecting in BOM/DEL - "significant" (not most) number of people prefer not to connect in BOM/DEL. I am one of those. Hence ME3 operating secondary Indian cities. Caliguy makes a good point: AI operationally from their DEL hub provide pretty decent options. s.


So I am all for expansion of BOM/DEL. If anything, expanding Jewar as a 6-runway airport is fantastic.

However it will take a lot of investment to make a Jewar hub work, money no Indian airline has. It will also have to deal with vagaries of arbitrary shutdown of Pakistan, Iran and other airspace’s.

Hence in the near term, only a narrow body option is likely to work. There may be a niche almost opportunistic possibility of p2p long haul.

For an investment banker, Caliguy is too emotional about hubs in India.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:28 am

Don't they ever learn? They seem to to enjoy investing in failing airlines and then letting them go bankrupt anyway.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:41 am

bravotango75 wrote:
Seriously, AZ, Air Berlin, Alitalia.....not exactly a great score card, might want to address their own financial shortcomings first.
sonicruiser wrote:
Etihad has a record of failed investments. Indian aviation has a record of being a money pit. If this isn’t flirting with disaster, I don’t know what is.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Seems like they're determined to be Swissair 2.0 :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
BestWestern
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:05 am

All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

Just look at the typical return last minute fare from LH and AI on Germany to DEL / BOM. Lufthansa is typically 3x or 4x more than Air India.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:07 am

bostrv wrote:
In some conditions, AI is the only airline that has a decent fare - I have not flown AI internationally since EK started flying to TRV. Now that the kids are older, we take a break in Europe on the way to a summer vacation. Trying to find a MAD-TRV-FCO ticket, and AI is half the price of EU competitors. AI's non stop TRV-DEL doesnt connect that well to the EU flights, but there is a TRV-COK-DEL flight that is workable.

I do agree that the hub in DEL is working.



AI is half the price of EU competitors as that's all people are willing to pay for.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
NZ321
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:45 pm

EY seems to be doing a good job recovering and retrneching from their past poor investments, and this is most encouraging. Indeed they seem to be growing again. But I can't imagine them being in a position to invest in this way. Unless they have access to other funds or a seriously large pot of money.
Plane mad!
 
VTORD
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:10 pm

BestWestern wrote:
All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.

No one is denying the pit that AI is. This is more about the irony of EY "rescuing" an airline given their track record with airline investments not about "love for AI".
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:37 pm

BestWestern wrote:
All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

Just look at the typical return last minute fare from LH and AI on Germany to DEL / BOM. Lufthansa is typically 3x or 4x more than Air India.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.


That has to do with elite *A founder members forming a JV and not allowing code shares within the alliance. Makes AI flights to *A hubs flights to nowhere.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:49 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

Just look at the typical return last minute fare from LH and AI on Germany to DEL / BOM. Lufthansa is typically 3x or 4x more than Air India.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.


That has to do with elite *A founder members forming a JV and not allowing code shares within the alliance. Makes AI flights to *A hubs flights to nowhere.



Its all to do with Air India not being able to charge what other airlines do. I had a choice, and chose a 1 stop Emirates rather than Air India. More expensive one stop vs direct, but so much better value. The 787 the last trip was dirty, the food was terrible and flight delayed. Its for that reason that AI don't get the non-stop yield. Even Kuwait air 1 stop was more expensive.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:54 pm

BestWestern wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

Just look at the typical return last minute fare from LH and AI on Germany to DEL / BOM. Lufthansa is typically 3x or 4x more than Air India.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.


That has to do with elite *A founder members forming a JV and not allowing code shares within the alliance. Makes AI flights to *A hubs flights to nowhere.



Its all to do with Air India not being able to charge what other airlines do. I had a choice, and chose a 1 stop Emirates rather than Air India. More expensive one stop vs direct, but so much better value. The 787 the last trip was dirty, the food was terrible and flight delayed. Its for that reason that AI don't get the non-stop yield. Even Kuwait air 1 stop was more expensive.


Fares for my next FRA DEL trip mid January are as follows:

Air India: 598 Eur
Lufthansa: 1170 Eur
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:03 pm

BestWestern wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
All this love for Air India does not equal yield.

Just look at the typical return last minute fare from LH and AI on Germany to DEL / BOM. Lufthansa is typically 3x or 4x more than Air India.

From a pax ex perspective, AI isn't at the races.


That has to do with elite *A founder members forming a JV and not allowing code shares within the alliance. Makes AI flights to *A hubs flights to nowhere.



Its all to do with Air India not being able to charge what other airlines do. I had a choice, and chose a 1 stop Emirates rather than Air India. More expensive one stop vs direct, but so much better value. The 787 the last trip was dirty, the food was terrible and flight delayed. Its for that reason that AI don't get the non-stop yield. Even Kuwait air 1 stop was more expensive.


You missed my point. If LH is not offering onward connections at FRA to AI because of JV with UA, AI carrying pretty much leftover non-*A O&D traffic. Same with UA @LHR/EWR/SFO. For AI *A membership is mostly useless and unnecessary burden. Obviously JV members can command premium with several connection options.
All posts are just opinions.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:13 pm

vadodara wrote:
VTORD wrote:
I don't see how lack of AI buyers has anything to do with flying through BOM/DEL.

I think I would reword what you said about connecting in BOM/DEL - "significant" (not most) number of people prefer not to connect in BOM/DEL. I am one of those. Hence ME3 operating secondary Indian cities. Caliguy makes a good point: AI operationally from their DEL hub provide pretty decent options. s.


So I am all for expansion of BOM/DEL. If anything, expanding Jewar as a 6-runway airport is fantastic.

However it will take a lot of investment to make a Jewar hub work, money no Indian airline has. It will also have to deal with vagaries of arbitrary shutdown of Pakistan, Iran and other airspace’s.

Hence in the near term, only a narrow body option is likely to work. There may be a niche almost opportunistic possibility of p2p long haul.

For an investment banker, Caliguy is too emotional about hubs in India.


Emotional? I’m looking at things from a business perspective and economic growth. The emotional group are those that just want their small city to have a widebody nonstop to Europe or another flight to some ME city. The narrow body connecting play is already in full force in India. There is nothing stopping the ME3 of partnering with Indian airlines to boost their seats between India and ME. Plus India is super well connected to the ME and SEA. Where India lags pathetically behind is loghaul connectivity. I only go to BOM but am happy for any city in India to develop a hub. Hubs allow connectivity to a wide array of cities. This creates jobs, brings in more tourists, and stimulates business activity. AI’s nonstops to cities like MAD, increased Spanish tourists to INdia. 9W’s flights to AMS and CDG increased French and Dutch tourists to India. That charter airline going broke in UK hurt tourist arrivals to GOA. Look at what China has accomplished through its now multiple global hubs. To me, the argument on this forum should be what needs to happen to make Indian hubs work. But sadly the argument is should India even have airline hubs. I mean come on. BOM, DEL, BLR might not be the best airports in the world, but they are in the top 25% wrt to connecting simply because they are small and new (IMHO). That is just a fact. The hate on this forum to those airports is just not based in fact (I mean this on a comparative basis. No airport is perfect and things can go wrong anywhere). My mom for instance doesn’t mind connecting in DEL because she knows how to deal with india. For her CDG is one step above a nightmare (even with her traveling in J and getting a wheelchair). Ai continues to prove that even when an airline has poor reviews, many people (not all), prefer to connect in their own country, These travelers deserve an Indian hub.

On the AI airfare comparison posts upstream. LH is not going for VFR pax between India and FRA. It prices so high because it wants business travelers and those that value LH to overpay for the nonstop. Basically blackmailing them. Tour packages and air/hotel packages will price LH much cheaper (btw). AI can’t attract the premium on India-EU nonstops (although it can to LHR and North America - shockingly). AI’s fares to EU are comparable to the ME3 and other one stop options. These are really AI’s competitors. Plus, AI can charge more to smaller Indian cities that have no real options other than AI. Welcome to airline pricing. So no scandal here guys.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:20 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
BestWestern wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

That has to do with elite *A founder members forming a JV and not allowing code shares within the alliance. Makes AI flights to *A hubs flights to nowhere.



Its all to do with Air India not being able to charge what other airlines do. I had a choice, and chose a 1 stop Emirates rather than Air India. More expensive one stop vs direct, but so much better value. The 787 the last trip was dirty, the food was terrible and flight delayed. Its for that reason that AI don't get the non-stop yield. Even Kuwait air 1 stop was more expensive.


You missed my point. If LH is not offering onward connections at FRA to AI because of JV with UA, AI carrying pretty much leftover non-*A O&D traffic. Same with UA @LHR/EWR/SFO. For AI *A membership is mostly useless and unnecessary burden. Obviously JV members can command premium with several connection options.


I don’t think Star is useless for AI. AI flights come up with UA and LH connections. UA EWR-LHR and then AI LHR-BOM comes up quite a bit. Plus AI say on BOM-FRA is at a totally different time than LH’s 3am flight. But the biggest gain for AI has been UA’s FF are willing to fly AI between US-India as they earn both UA miles and status points (at reasonable levels). This, IMHO, has really helped AI’s flights (best example is the SFO flights which is in a UA controlled city).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:45 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I don’t think Star is useless for AI. AI flights come up with UA and LH connections. UA EWR-LHR and then AI LHR-BOM comes up quite a bit. Plus AI say on BOM-FRA is at a totally different time than LH’s 3am flight. But the biggest gain for AI has been UA’s FF are willing to fly AI between US-India as they earn both UA miles and status points (at reasonable levels). This, IMHO, has really helped AI’s flights (best example is the SFO flights which is in a UA controlled city).


With few exceptions AI has to play second fiddle to *A founding members' JV interests.

Whether one wants to believe or not LH/UA/SQ just wants a Indian domestic feeder which will not cut into JV revenues. Jet Airways played that role until SkyTeam expanded its EU presence until its demise. Now they are courting Vistara, because they know it won't be a threat to their long-haul.

If this was China, code share applications will be in cold storage until their carriers get enough benefit. But India's foreign first doesn't benefit any of the local carriers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
I don’t think Star is useless for AI. AI flights come up with UA and LH connections. UA EWR-LHR and then AI LHR-BOM comes up quite a bit. Plus AI say on BOM-FRA is at a totally different time than LH’s 3am flight. But the biggest gain for AI has been UA’s FF are willing to fly AI between US-India as they earn both UA miles and status points (at reasonable levels). This, IMHO, has really helped AI’s flights (best example is the SFO flights which is in a UA controlled city).


With few exceptions AI has to play second fiddle to *A founding members' JV interests.

Whether one wants to believe or not LH/UA/SQ just wants a Indian domestic feeder which will not cut into JV revenues. Jet Airways played that role until SkyTeam expanded its EU presence until its demise. Now they are courting Vistara, because they know it won't be a threat to their long-haul.

If this was China, code share applications will be in cold storage until their carriers get enough benefit. But India's foreign first doesn't benefit any of the local carriers.


Second fiddle sure but it still is very beneficial. Look Ai is AI. With a new owner who knows. The bigger question is why did it take Jet so long to strike a good deal. The DL deal came way too late for them. Look at Vistara, what is their plan? I would have thought they would have seen the 9W deal and struck something with either BA/AA or DL/KL/AF. I excluded UA.LH because I feel they feel they are strong in India and won’t give as good a deal as the others. In general, I have never felt like Indian airlines behave in a rational business way. There is always some hidden agenda or hidden money or hidden govt help that causes them to make irrational decisions. I thought DL/VS/KL/AF were very generous to 9W. So good deals can be had if Indian airlines can get their act together. And if GOI regulation is at issue, once again I ask, why are Indian airlines and unions still saying NOTHING. Again makes no rational sense.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8272
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:59 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The bigger question is why did it take Jet so long to strike a good deal. The DL deal came way too late for them.


It is not the issue of India or Indian carriers, EU/US legacies cannot have JVs or broad code-share agreements with low-labor-cost countries, their unions won't allow

There is a separate thread on this topic. DL skirted around these union restrictions in the past with VS/KE/LATAM JVs and 9W code-share mostly thru structuring them thru equity pickup or AF/KL,but now unions are not taking any chances with JV scope with AeroMexico.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1429411

There is a better site detailing their position.
http://dalscope.org/

Same situation in Europe. Why can't LH Group start a decent LHLCC? How long project "jump" been in the works, 7+ years!!. Too long to start using written-off 343s and part time crew, but they can't.

Hint: it is not BASAs or third world airlines, it is their own unions. Blaming third world is a perfect excuse because they cannot deal with their own unions.
All posts are just opinions.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:43 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
There is nothing stopping the ME3 of partnering with Indian airlines to boost their seats between India and ME. Plus India is super well connected to the ME and SEA. Where India lags pathetically behind is loghaul connectivity. I only go to BOM but am happy for any city in India to develop a hub. Hubs allow connectivity to a wide array of


Not quiet! ME3 have essentially blocked from expanding in India. Expansion of ME3 brings the same benefits you suggested, I.e. tourists and jobs.

Since you cited BOM as an example. Allowing ME3 and SE Asian airlines in AMD has increased international travel at an average pace of 20%.

Sorry couldn’t care if BOM is/was a hub or not. If Mumbaikars care, the. The state/local govt should do something to clean the slums from the airport land for expansion.
 
bostrv
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:33 am

BestWestern wrote:
bostrv wrote:
In some conditions, AI is the only airline that has a decent fare - I have not flown AI internationally since EK started flying to TRV. Now that the kids are older, we take a break in Europe on the way to a summer vacation. Trying to find a MAD-TRV-FCO ticket, and AI is half the price of EU competitors. AI's non stop TRV-DEL doesnt connect that well to the EU flights, but there is a TRV-COK-DEL flight that is workable.

I do agree that the hub in DEL is working.



AI is half the price of EU competitors as that's all people are willing to pay for.


The US - EU leg of my booking is still less than 1/2 I am paying AI - the fare came to around USD 330 for BOS-MAD/FCO-BOS on LH basic economy vs $750 for MAD-TRV-FCO.

I do wish airlines stop assuming there is no economy basic demand for travel to India - my family would readily try basic economy, we dont travel with the kitchen sink.
 
bostrv
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:42 am

dtw2hyd wrote:

Same situation in Europe. Why can't LH Group start a decent LHLCC? How long project "jump" been in the works, 7+ years!!. Too long to start using written-off 343s and part time crew, but they can't.



I did see and book extremely low fares from LH for basic economy fares transatlantic during the new year weekend - if basic economy fares can be lower than DY, not sure if they need an explicit LHLCC..
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:08 am

Many ppl here who haven't tried AI for years but will join in badmouthing its service.
If I get a low fare, I would immediately take it, as they are a full service airlines and the snacks , meals , etc are a good bonus. And actual working entertainment screens
Also the seats are not stuck together like in many low cost airlines.
Now my query - if ai is sold off , how would they manage the president's and PMs official visits ?
Keep a few planes and pilots with the airforce ?
Dont want our PM to fly commercial like imran Khan and being given lifts to usa by the Saudis.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:52 pm

maint123 wrote:
Many ppl here who haven't tried AI for years but will join in badmouthing its service.
If I get a low fare, I would immediately take it, as they are a full service airlines and the snacks , meals , etc are a good bonus. And actual working entertainment screens

Also the seats are not stuck together like in many low cost airlines.



I Have tried AI recently, and have decided to invest my travel dollars elsewhere. Cheap does not mean good value.

There is nothing 'full service' about Air India. Food is poor, IFE is terrible, and the 787s are dirty.

For this reason LH can charge x2.5 times the fare to Frankfurt.

The dreams of BOM becoming a global hub won't happen. The fantastic new terminal is being let down by shoddy work practices - like 90 minutes for bag delivery, 20 minute queue for customs and 40 minutes for immigration.

On LHR DEL - the following shows for a mid week Y return in late Jan.

AI - 621 Eur
VS - 839 euro
BA - 965 Euro

QR - 601 Euro
EK - 631 Euro

People aren't willing to pay for Air India.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Etihad to the rescue? Again?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:25 pm

RWA380 wrote:
fiestyemus wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
It would be Indigo. The condition is that the Government will own 51% of the combined entity. So now the Government will get to run Indigo too.

Do you have any source for the fact that the Government wants to own 51% of the combined entity? It seems contrary to what I have read elsewhere.


The OP clearly stated that the Government wants 100% privatization, the only caveat is at least 51% of the carrier must be owned by an Indian business, not by the government & that, is quite typical worldwide.

From the OP cut & paste quoted - "This comes as the government of India is willing to fully privatize the national carrier and its regional arm"


I guess it's ok to privatize now that Jet is out of the way.
Keep on truckin'...
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:39 am

BestWestern wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Many ppl here who haven't tried AI for years but will join in badmouthing its service.
If I get a low fare, I would immediately take it, as they are a full service airlines and the snacks , meals , etc are a good bonus. And actual working entertainment screens

Also the seats are not stuck together like in many low cost airlines.



I Have tried AI recently, and have decided to invest my travel dollars elsewhere. Cheap does not mean good value.

There is nothing 'full service' about Air India. Food is poor, IFE is terrible, and the 787s are dirty.

For this reason LH can charge x2.5 times the fare to Frankfurt.

The dreams of BOM becoming a global hub won't happen. The fantastic new terminal is being let down by shoddy work practices - like 90 minutes for bag delivery, 20 minute queue for customs and 40 minutes for immigration.

On LHR DEL - the following shows for a mid week Y return in late Jan.

AI - 621 Eur
VS - 839 euro
BA - 965 Euro

QR - 601 Euro
EK - 631 Euro

People aren't willing to pay for Air India.

I cross checked the fares for Delhi to London, direct ( 1 stop in gulf airlines are much cheaper), dates - 22nd to 27th Jan return , AI is around 125 euro cheaper than BA . Your figures are wrong.
Ppl on personal visits and with families would take the cheaper fare while those on official visits would prefer BA.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8272
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:48 am

AI historically doesn't follow the pack in fare fixing. When private carriers want to price gouge, it keeps fares lower, when private carriers want to sell at rock bottom prices AI prices will be higher. This was a contentious issue with Indian private carriers.

Does AI still practice this fare model? I thought it abandoned.
All posts are just opinions.
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:50 am

https://m.rediff.com/business/column/mo ... 200109.htm
The Modi government is trying hard to see if it could be sold to a private airline.'
'But it appears there are no takers.'
'If no buyer comes forward by June, the government will close down Air India,' predicts A K Bhattacharya."

It's a prediction by the author.
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:13 am

maint123 wrote:
https://m.rediff.com/business/column/modi-may-shut-air-india-by-june/20200109.htm
The Modi government is trying hard to see if it could be sold to a private airline.'
'But it appears there are no takers.'
'If no buyer comes forward by June, the government will close down Air India,' predicts A K Bhattacharya."

It's a prediction by the author.


It seems that author has no idea about what he/she is talking about.

"Predicting" the use of first world logic in a third world country, kind of tells me that the author has lost all sense of reality. There are many forums where majority of us have said to let AI die.

Has it happened? ... no.

Will it happen? ... maybe.

Ok, maybe when? ... when the country becomes a first world country.
My comments are based as an aviation enthusiast first, then as a passenger who paid for his own ticket, after that a passenger on a business trip and finally an armchair CEO.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8272
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:22 pm

Even MoCA few weeks back said AI will be shutdown if not sold, since then backed out from those comments. Even CAPA warned GoI about the consequences of shutting down AI. Interesting 180 from CAPA.

Modi will sincerely try to clear all AI debt and pass it on to a friend and show it as divestment. Win-Win-Win. Win for Modi(PSU sale achievement), Win for the friend(well established debt free airline) and Win for the budget(Divestment goal achieved).

But the business/financial environment in India seems to be real bad for anyone to pickup an airline. It appears there is a unspoken severe liquidity crunch. Even if Modi gives a clean debt free AI, no buyer can source enough working capital from local finance sources to run the airline.

So, AI shutdown is a real possibility.
All posts are just opinions.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8272
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:27 pm

Well, MoCA is making sure investors(friends) are aware that GoI is ready to wipe out (entire??) debt of AI. If this doesn't attract investors(friends), what will?

https://www.cnbctv18.com/videos/aviatio ... 028201.htm
All posts are just opinions.
 
TObound
Posts: 776
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:56 pm

BestWestern wrote:
bostrv wrote:
In some conditions, AI is the only airline that has a decent fare - I have not flown AI internationally since EK started flying to TRV. Now that the kids are older, we take a break in Europe on the way to a summer vacation. Trying to find a MAD-TRV-FCO ticket, and AI is half the price of EU competitors. AI's non stop TRV-DEL doesnt connect that well to the EU flights, but there is a TRV-COK-DEL flight that is workable.

I do agree that the hub in DEL is working.



AI is half the price of EU competitors as that's all people are willing to pay for.


Would that be true if EY was running the carrier on its terms?
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:58 pm

Easy answer ... EY hard and soft product would command EY fares, even on AI metal.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1202
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:24 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Easy answer ... EY hard and soft product would command EY fares, even on AI metal.


Ha - EY fares out of India are some of the cheapest. They routinely offer sub $800 fates between US and India. AI rarely offers such cheap fares. I wish EY could bring better operational skills and soft product to AI. Sadly, they proved with all their other investments that they cannot do this (they can pour good money into bad). AI needs an EU or US mega airline to turn it around with a. strong Indian partner. Selling without/low debt is a must (and please don't equate that to mean it will go to a friend - you can't sell AI with crazy debt).

Btw AI will never just be shut down. That would be stupid and a gross waste of all the investment in AI. Why people think shutting something down is better than selling it without debt and restrictions on restructuring (read firing and culling routes) is BEYOND me.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:59 am

You're correct. My implication was that EY fares would be higher than AI fares.... but given a choice between AI product and EY product for the same or lower fare, and not all EY flights are full, why does AI have pax? Schedule? Loyalty program?
 
sabby
Posts: 438
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Ha - EY fares out of India are some of the cheapest. They routinely offer sub $800 fates between US and India. AI rarely offers such cheap fares.



Probably because EY started using A320/A321s everywhere. Only 1 of the several daily flights are 787/77 from DEL, BOM, BLR and HYD. MAA and CCU are full A321/A321.
 
sibibom
Posts: 466
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:04 am

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:47 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
You're correct. My implication was that EY fares would be higher than AI fares.... but given a choice between AI product and EY product for the same or lower fare, and not all EY flights are full, why does AI have pax? Schedule? Loyalty program?


Cos there are many who dislike stopping in Abu Dhabi, plus with Jet's demise their connecting feed has dramatically reduced. Not to mention, EY has been cutting services onboard (especially in the catering department) and its very evident.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: Etihad Could Look To Rescue Air India Alongside IndiGo

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:27 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Even MoCA few weeks back said AI will be shutdown if not sold, since then backed out from those comments. Even CAPA warned GoI about the consequences of shutting down AI. Interesting 180 from CAPA.

Modi will sincerely try to clear all AI debt and pass it on to a friend and show it as divestment. Win-Win-Win. Win for Modi(PSU sale achievement), Win for the friend(well established debt free airline) and Win for the budget(Divestment goal achieved).

But the business/financial environment in India seems to be real bad for anyone to pickup an airline. It appears there is a unspoken severe liquidity crunch. Even if Modi gives a clean debt free AI, no buyer can source enough working capital from local finance sources to run the airline.

So, AI shutdown is a real possibility.


Do you have any evidence for your statements?

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