x1234
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What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:33 pm

What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA? I was watching some BA cabin crew videos on YouTube and this was mentioned. Is Mixed Fleet BA's way to lower costs with new crew?
 
BA777FO
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:50 pm

x1234 wrote:
Is Mixed Fleet BA's way to lower costs with new crew?


Simple answer: yes.

Worldwide only fly longhaul routes, Eurofleet only fly short haul routes. Mixed fleet fly a mix of both.

There are differences in scheduling agreements, allowances, pay structure and CSM (senior crew member) and the CSL/former purser position etc but ultimately it has slashed costs considerably. Mixed Fleet do not fly together with Worldwide or Eurofleet crew and generally destinations will not see Mixed Fleet/Worldwide on the same route but there a couple of exceptions.

While there may be some dissenters, essentially Mixed Fleet is paid roughly equivilent to easyJet and Virgin crew. Worldwide are on another level with some CSDs earning over £60,000 per year. Typical Mixed Fleet salaries (including all allowances and bonuses and before Host deductions) is about £21,000. Main crew Worldwide is probably closer £35,000 per year.

BA pays its FPP cadet pilots under £30,000 their first year, just for a comparable.
 
phllax
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:14 am

Doesn’t some of this go all the way back to the BOAC/BEA merger?
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:06 am

BA777FO wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Is Mixed Fleet BA's way to lower costs with new crew?


Simple answer: yes.

Worldwide only fly longhaul routes, Eurofleet only fly short haul routes. Mixed fleet fly a mix of both.

There are differences in scheduling agreements, allowances, pay structure and CSM (senior crew member) and the CSL/former purser position etc but ultimately it has slashed costs considerably. Mixed Fleet do not fly together with Worldwide or Eurofleet crew and generally destinations will not see Mixed Fleet/Worldwide on the same route but there a couple of exceptions.

While there may be some dissenters, essentially Mixed Fleet is paid roughly equivilent to easyJet and Virgin crew. Worldwide are on another level with some CSDs earning over £60,000 per year. Typical Mixed Fleet salaries (including all allowances and bonuses and before Host deductions) is about £21,000. Main crew Worldwide is probably closer £35,000 per year.

Assuming those salary levels quoted are around median, the BA Mixed fleet earns basically poverty levels living anywhere near London (and is pretty bad overall in UK), which is as expected given the amount of noise made about their awful pay.

What's more surprising is how mediocre the supposed "high-pay" WW crew's income is. 35 grand a year for an individual in their 30s/40s at least 10 years into their career doesn't sound decent at all, especially in the London area.
 
findingnema
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:37 am

BA777FO pretty succinctly explained the differences above and there’s not much more to say on the issue as otherwise all cabin crew are trained in exactly the same way to deliver the same service.

The only amendment I’d make is that the pay is far more comparable to Virgin than EasyJet, as EZY have quite a generous compensation package which is evident from the number of Mixed Fleet crew that return to EasyJet or leave BA for them.

When Mixed Fleet started in 2010, BA launched their own website (Be Outstanding) which had potential career progression charts, interviews with people doing the different roles and touted that the pay structure would be “industry average plus 10%.” As BA were offering a permanent year round contract, and relatively quick progression to CSM compared to other (particularly longhaul) operators, the first few years of Mixed Fleet had lots of ex-charter and low cost airline crew, as well as returners from the Middle East. That started to slump about five years in when word got around about the pay and conditions. Unless you were desperate to work on a jumbo or your airline was at risk of collapse (as we’ve seen now with TCX) why would you bother applying? It was almost always better to stay where you are.

What you now see is lots of people green to the industry but who will progress very quickly because you aren’t getting the direct entry applications any more. The 2017 Mixed Fleet strikes weren’t necessarily a success for the union in that certainly by the second wave they had Qatar bringing in aircraft to cover almost all rotations that couldn’t be covered by non Mixed Fleet crew. What it did though was start to change the narrative of industrial relations on Mixed Fleet and a number of changes to conditions, uniform standards, trip lengths and pay structures did come in. Not as far as the union would have liked, but at the least to reach the pay scales that BA777FO highlights above.
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amc737
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am

Just to add to what findingnema and BA777UFO have already excellently put, I was around waterside a couple of years after mixed fleet had started and was in the process of being ramped up. Some of these figures will be wrong as I can’t remember exactly so I apologise in advance. The basic pay at that point was around £12k and then you got allowances of I think around £2.80 per hour for when you were on duty. This duty started when you logged on at the Crew Report Centre until you checked out on return to London. These allowances bumped up the take home and you also could get bonuses for attendance etc i.e not being off sick and then you would have deductions for HOST.

Where the main difference with Virgin and easyjet was evident is route profiles. easyjet only flew shorthual with virtually no night stops, Virgin only long haul but with mixed fleet you fly both. Heathrow to Manchester was a mixed fleet route someone could fly London to Manchester one day than to Rio the next. As the allowances were quite low it meant effectively you only got less than £10 on top of salary if you did a Manchester, Rio was a 5-day trip being a double overnight and was very popular with mixed fleet members because of the ability to earn 5 days’ worth of allowances. At the time crew still lived all over the country I expect as has been pointed out due to London rent prices and you heard stores which I can’t verify if true that crew would sleep in their cars at staff car parks because it was not worth driving home to the north to come back the next day.

When mixed fleet launched T&C's where considerably less than at worldwide/eurofleet. When Los Angeles was worldwide cabin crew had 2 nights in LA, when mixed fleet took on the route it was 1. As time has passed some of this has improved, I believe LAX became 2 nights for mixed fleet, but there is a lot churn within the fleet which management said there where happy with 20% turnover each year.

amc737
 
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vhtje
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:03 am

As a frequent passenger, I can say that once on board, you can usually tell, without looking at the route allocation, if the crew is WW or MF fleet. For one thing, WW crew are noticeably older than MF crew. WW crew tend to be more relaxed and self-assured in their service delivery. That's not to say MF are all bad; I have had some excellent flights with MF crew, and terrible ones on WW, but generally, in the pointy end anyway, WW typically deliver a better, more polished experience. WW are just able to read and therefore anticipate the customer better; experience counts. The differences are not so stark between Euro Fleet and Mixed Fleet, probably because sectors are shorter. Also, I find MF crew are from more socially diverse backgrounds than WW: one hears far more regionality in accents from a MF crew, compared to a WW crew.

What I do not know is how WW/MF scheduling impacts BA's overseas-based crew? E.g crew based in Cairo, India, HKG, etc - overseas crew typically work alongside crew from London, but do these overseas crew work with both types?
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Bongodog49
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:01 pm

vhtje wrote:
As a frequent passenger, I can say that once on board, you can usually tell, without looking at the route allocation, if the crew is WW or MF fleet. For one thing, WW crew are noticeably older than MF crew. WW crew tend to be more relaxed and self-assured in their service delivery. That's not to say MF are all bad; I have had some excellent flights with MF crew, and terrible ones on WW, but generally, in the pointy end anyway, WW typically deliver a better, more polished experience. WW are just able to read and therefore anticipate the customer better; experience counts. The differences are not so stark between Euro Fleet and Mixed Fleet, probably because sectors are shorter. Also, I find MF crew are from more socially diverse backgrounds than WW: one hears far more regionality in accents from a MF crew, compared to a WW crew.

What I do not know is how WW/MF scheduling impacts BA's overseas-based crew? E.g crew based in Cairo, India, HKG, etc - overseas crew typically work alongside crew from London, but do these overseas crew work with both types?


Does BA have any overseas crew bases these days ? They have publicly shut a number over the past few years.
 
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
As a frequent passenger, I can say that once on board, you can usually tell, without looking at the route allocation, if the crew is WW or MF fleet. For one thing, WW crew are noticeably older than MF crew. WW crew tend to be more relaxed and self-assured in their service delivery. That's not to say MF are all bad; I have had some excellent flights with MF crew, and terrible ones on WW, but generally, in the pointy end anyway, WW typically deliver a better, more polished experience. WW are just able to read and therefore anticipate the customer better; experience counts. The differences are not so stark between Euro Fleet and Mixed Fleet, probably because sectors are shorter. Also, I find MF crew are from more socially diverse backgrounds than WW: one hears far more regionality in accents from a MF crew, compared to a WW crew.

What I do not know is how WW/MF scheduling impacts BA's overseas-based crew? E.g crew based in Cairo, India, HKG, etc - overseas crew typically work alongside crew from London, but do these overseas crew work with both types?


Does BA have any overseas crew bases these days ? They have publicly shut a number over the past few years.


I go to CAI semi-regularly and there are definitely Egyptian BA crew based in Cairo and who only fly LHR <> CAI (I learned this speaking to crew members). I think HKG may have been closed, but I think there are still Indian-based crew.
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ClassicLover
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:21 pm

amc737 wrote:
The basic pay at that point was around £12k and then you got allowances of I think around £2.80 per hour for when you were on duty.


You remember pretty much correctly. A friend flew for Mixed Fleet in about 2012 and that was pretty much what he was getting. All in he earned £19,000 that year. (and maxed out on hours and had to have 6 weeks or so off). I believe now they earn somewhat more, but still in the range of about £25,000 or a bit more.

Otherwise, there is no difference. All the training is the same and I pretty much find all the crews on BA to give the same service. I couldn't honestly tell the difference from a service perspective. Eventually they'll all be Mixed Fleet anyway and finally BA will have one cabin crew fleet rather than all the contracts they have now. And yes, it was a legacy of the merger... in 1974!!! Worldwide (ex-BOAC), EuroFleet (ex-BEA) and then Mixed Fleet came in cause the crew cost too much.
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:11 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
Does BA have any overseas crew bases these days ? They have publicly shut a number over the past few years.


Not many left. EZE & GRU were closed in 2018. Not sure about MEX & SIN. They did open a base in China not long ago; not sure if PVG or PEK.
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amc737
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:06 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
amc737 wrote:
The basic pay at that point was around £12k and then you got allowances of I think around £2.80 per hour for when you were on duty.


You remember pretty much correctly. A friend flew for Mixed Fleet in about 2012 and that was pretty much what he was getting. All in he earned £19,000 that year. (and maxed out on hours and had to have 6 weeks or so off). I believe now they earn somewhat more, but still in the range of about £25,000 or a bit more.

Otherwise, there is no difference. All the training is the same and I pretty much find all the crews on BA to give the same service. I couldn't honestly tell the difference from a service perspective. Eventually they'll all be Mixed Fleet anyway and finally BA will have one cabin crew fleet rather than all the contracts they have now. And yes, it was a legacy of the merger... in 1974!!! Worldwide (ex-BOAC), EuroFleet (ex-BEA) and then Mixed Fleet came in cause the crew cost too much.


2012 ties in with my experience so thank you for confirming! I think crew could do up to 900 hours a year so those that could budget effectively would max hours by bidding for Rios etc and then having longer off later in the year but obviously without the allowances being paid.

I would also like to re-iterate that the training in safety equipment etc was exactly the same as any other crew - at this time it was at Cranebank, although mixed fleet trainees did work to a "points" system that meant if they picked up too many points by failing assessments or general behavior was unsatisfactory such as being late they would be terminated at the point.

There was a rumor that Atlanta which was operated by mixed fleet was swapped back to worldwide at the request of a big corporate customer (allegedly coca cola) due to service issues. Again no evidence just a waterside whisper. To be fair the fleet was new back than and whether that was true or not there where growing pains and other issues but the fleet is nearly 10 years old now and I haven't noticed any difference in service between fleets.

amc737
 
AZa346
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:51 pm

What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks
 
tonystan
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:23 pm

AZa346 wrote:
What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks


Routes swap around a fair bit each year so difficult to give an exact account. Plus as MF gets bigger and WW/EF get smaller through attrition more routes will transfer over.

At the moment the overseas bases are MEX (work with WW), CAI (work with both WW & MF), BAH (work with WW), BOM (work with WW), DEL (work with both WW & MF), HYD (setting up this year, to work with MF), MAA (work with WW), BLR (work with WW), TYO (work with WW on both NRT & HND), PVG (work with MF) and PEK (work with MF).

Sadly bases in HKG, SIN, GRU & EZE have all closed in recent years.
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vorellanaj
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:50 pm

tonystan wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks


Routes swap around a fair bit each year so difficult to give an exact account. Plus as MF gets bigger and WW/EF get smaller through attrition more routes will transfer over.

At the moment the overseas bases are MEX (work with WW), CAI (work with both WW & MF), BAH (work with WW), BOM (work with WW), DEL (work with both WW & MF), HYD (setting up this year, to work with MF), MAA (work with WW), BLR (work with WW), TYO (work with WW on both NRT & HND), PVG (work with MF) and PEK (work with MF).

Sadly bases in HKG, SIN, GRU & EZE have all closed in recent years.


Does BA have any crew base inside USA? (JFK for example)

BA doesn't fly PEK anymore, it flies from PKX.
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ClassicLover
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:01 pm

AZa346 wrote:
What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks


Well for EuroFleet, the routes are all in the name. They fly all the European routes.

London City is done by CityFlyer crew who cover the routes out of there only, as CityFlyer is a subsidiary.

London Gatwick crew do all the LGW flying, both European and Long-Haul. They also cover the Club World London City BA1 and BA2 flights to New York out of London City.

As someone said above, Worldwide and Mixed Fleet do change around a bit. My friend did certain routes, then some went back to Worldwide, then they got others in their place. I know Sydney is Mixed Fleet, as I recall it was changed from Worldwide to Mixed Fleet around the same time it switched from Boeing 747 to Boeing 777, and as a result of both changes, the route became profitable.
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:29 pm

vorellanaj wrote:
Does BA have any crew base inside USA? (JFK for example)



No.
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x1234
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm

I'm surprised BA doesn't' have any USA crew bases.
 
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:39 pm

x1234 wrote:
I'm surprised BA doesn't' have any USA crew bases.


What would the benefit to BA be? These bases serve the purpose of hiring local language speakers. A US-based F/A brings nothing to the table in terms of language that they can't get in their home base, the UK.
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tonystan
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:27 pm

x1234 wrote:
I'm surprised BA doesn't' have any USA crew bases.


Why would they? The crew already speak English!!!
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tonystan
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:29 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks


Well for EuroFleet, the routes are all in the name. They fly all the European routes.


Not quite, Eurofleet just operate shorthaul operations but not all the European routes, just the ones they have been allocated which is a dwindling number every year while MF take over.
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mattyfitzg
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:34 pm

ClassicLover wrote:

London City is done by CityFlyer crew who cover the routes out of there only, as CityFlyer is a subsidiary.
.


It’s worth noting that Cityflyer crews are paid significantly more than their Mixed fleet counterparts, due partly to the fact they get “London Weighting” and rosters are made up of mostly nightstops.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:08 pm

vhtje wrote:
As a frequent passenger, I can say that once on board, you can usually tell, without looking at the route allocation, if the crew is WW or MF fleet. For one thing, WW crew are noticeably older than MF crew. WW crew tend to be more relaxed and self-assured in their service delivery. That's not to say MF are all bad; I have had some excellent flights with MF crew, and terrible ones on WW, but generally, in the pointy end anyway, WW typically deliver a better, more polished experience. WW are just able to read and therefore anticipate the customer better; experience counts. The differences are not so stark between Euro Fleet and Mixed Fleet, probably because sectors are shorter. Also, I find MF crew are from more socially diverse backgrounds than WW: one hears far more regionality in accents from a MF crew, compared to a WW crew.

I have to agree with that having flown LHR-SIN-SYD in October. The LHR-SIN legs were on BA011/BA012 (the A380), which is operated by WW whilst SIN-SYD legs were on BA015/BA016 (the 77W), which is operated by MF. Taking BA011/BA012 for LHR-SIN was partly to experience the A380, but also because there was Club availability (using Avios) on the SIN-LHR sector.

Both sets of crews were professional and friendly, but the age profile on the WW flights was higher. There was also the self-assurance and polish you mentioned. I'd also say that the MF experience was more varied, with the SIN-SYD leg being at times sloppy whilst the SYD-SIN leg was more professional, but in a relaxed way. The latter flight had a ground delay of over an hour, and we had no air-con. Constant apologies, crew passing through with water, and very visible. On the SIN-SYD flight it seemed chaotic in the galley (I was in row 44), the meal service was very slow and disjointed (WT+ trolley went forward half an hour before WT, then the latter was stop-start). Asking for 'bubbles' my partner was told "we don't carry that back here, or we'd be all drinking it" and when he asked what wines was just told it is a white or a red. On the SYD-SIN flight there was a choice of 'bubbles', and choices of white and red wines were offered and explained. It can't be that they had run out on the SIN-SYD flight because service was starting at the rear of WT. It just felt lazy and sloppy. So I get why some have mixed impressions of MF.

ClassicLover wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Eventually they'll all be Mixed Fleet anyway and finally BA will have one cabin crew fleet rather than all the contracts they have now. And yes, it was a legacy of the merger... in 1974!!! Worldwide (ex-BOAC), EuroFleet (ex-BEA) and then Mixed Fleet came in cause the crew cost too much.

At LHR anyway. Gatwick has its own mixed contracts that are separate. If I recall the longhaul crews transferred to LHR and the shorthaul (EuroGatwick?) crews started operating the longhaul flights. I think this was one of the reasons BA simplified on the 777 for LGW longhaul so that the crews, at the time, were trained on 737 classic (737-300/-400/-500), later the A320 family and the 777-200.
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WS7M8
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:32 pm

Between WW, MF, and the outstation bases, some of which are both, it sounds like a significant challenge to schedule the right people for the right flight.
 
mattyfitzg
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:03 pm

WS7M8 wrote:
Between WW, MF, and the outstation bases, some of which are both, it sounds like a significant challenge to schedule the right people for the right flight.



The crewing departments etc have a dedicated section. For example Mixed fleet crew get patched through to a Mixed fleet crew controller(who also controls Gatwick), whereas worldwide and eurofleet have their own.
 
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:52 am

tonystan wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
What routes are served by MF, WW or EF? Thanks


Well for EuroFleet, the routes are all in the name. They fly all the European routes.


Not quite, Eurofleet just operate shorthaul operations but not all the European routes, just the ones they have been allocated which is a dwindling number every year while MF take over.


You're right, of course, I should have been more specific.
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Baexecutive
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:29 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

London City is done by CityFlyer crew who cover the routes out of there only, as CityFlyer is a subsidiary.
.


It’s worth noting that Cityflyer crews are paid significantly more than their Mixed fleet counterparts, due partly to the fact they get “London Weighting” and rosters are made up of mostly nightstops.


Cityflyer and LGW based colleagues are on significantly less salary and flight pay than LHR (all fleets). The hourly rate/basic pay at LCY/LGW is considerably less than at Mixed Fleet, the weighting only makes a small impact.
 
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:42 pm

tonystan wrote:
x1234 wrote:
I'm surprised BA doesn't' have any USA crew bases.


Why would they? The crew already speak English!!!


Professor Henry Higgins would disagree with you! :rotfl:

On a serious note, this has all been very informative to read; I always wondered what "Mixed Fleet" was in reading the news about all the cabin crew strikes. Thanks for all of this.
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findingnema
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:02 pm

vorellanaj wrote:
tonystan wrote:

Does BA have any crew base inside USA? (JFK for example).


No, as BA has historically had international cabin crew bases for linguistic and cultural expertise. From memory, when OpenSkies started in 2008 there was a New York and a Paris crew base, but I’m not sure now that EC services are branded as Level whether the New York base remains.

Historically, well certainly until at least 2016/2017, ICCs only flew with Worldwide Fleet. BA went through a process of hiring “language speakers” for HND and ICN when these routes were launched and went straight to Mixed Fleet, as well as Mandarin speakers for the transfer of SIN/SYD and the launch of CTU. There was talk about Portuguese being recognised for the Brazilian routes and Luanda, and more recently Spanish for EZE but that seems to have died a death, which is a shame as language speakers with good cultural knowledge make all of the difference on these flights.

Around 2017 when they closed some of the legacy international bases, they opened the new Chinese bases but I don’t believe that there has been any recruitment into the remaining old bases for some time.

The only oddity was CAI. As a base they had ICCs who flew with WW and OCCs (Overseas Cabin Crew) who were recruited specifically to work on A321s, 777/747 patterns with Mixed Fleet to Arabic speaking countries. I’m not sure now whether it is just one crew community in Cairo or if the two separate tiers still exists.
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gunnerman
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:09 pm

FlyCaledonian wrote:

ClassicLover wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Eventually they'll all be Mixed Fleet anyway and finally BA will have one cabin crew fleet rather than all the contracts they have now. And yes, it was a legacy of the merger... in 1974!!! Worldwide (ex-BOAC), EuroFleet (ex-BEA) and then Mixed Fleet came in cause the crew cost too much.

At LHR anyway. Gatwick has its own mixed contracts that are separate. If I recall the longhaul crews transferred to LHR and the shorthaul (EuroGatwick?) crews started operating the longhaul flights. I think this was one of the reasons BA simplified on the 777 for LGW longhaul so that the crews, at the time, were trained on 737 classic (737-300/-400/-500), later the A320 family and the 777-200.

I flew on a range of widewodies from LGW including 747s, DC10s, 777s and 767s. Rod Eddington did the right thing when he implemented the simplification policy across the whole company, and at LGW every widebody which wasn't a GE90-powered 777-200ER was moved to LHR. What you had was cabin crew doing what was known as MFF - mixed fleet flying - which was operating a mixture of 777s and 737-300/436/500s plus some who were licenced to fly the 319s. When the LHR mixed fleet was set up in late 2010 the contract was based on the Gatwick fleet contract including, if memory serves me correctly, a starting salary of £11,000 and a flying allowance of £2.50ph.
 
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:18 pm

At the time Mixed Fleet was attractive to many for a combination of:

- Year round contract, Monarch, TUI and Thomas Cook winter lay offs were a worry for many
- Longhaul and overnight variety compared to EZY or RYR
- Relative stability in an industry with a history of collapses

My impression as a passenger is that some Mixed Fleet crew struggle to cope with more complex longhaul and premium class service standards and patterns.
 
findingnema
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 1:14 am

Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:29 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
Ryanair01 wrote:
At the time Mixed Fleet was attractive to many for a combination of:

- Year round contract, Monarch, TUI and Thomas Cook winter lay offs were a worry for many
- Longhaul and overnight variety compared to EZY or RYR
- Relative stability in an industry with a history of collapses

My impression as a passenger is that some Mixed Fleet crew struggle to cope with more complex longhaul and premium class service standards and patterns.


That’s pretty much on the money.

As I mentioned up thread, when Mixed Fleet started the salary was comparatively low (even then) compared to the charter airlines at £11k basic and £2.40 an hour from sign on until clear but it offered a permanent, year round contract with an established operator and quick career progression - with CSM available either direct entry for those with relevant experience or within 5 years, completely in achievable at most charter airlines or at VS.

What is pretty much the case now is, as you say, that Mixed Fleet is only really attractive to those who are currently working for less stable airlines or who are starting out in the industry. Before the strikes you’d get a fairly good mix of experienced fliers which seems to happen less these days as the contract still remains relatively uncompetitive. It’s not unusual to see people returning to easyJet for the contract and pay, once the novelty of doing longhaul wears off. That said, there has been a significant contingent of Monarch crew joining and quite a lot of TCX will be joining in the new year.

With regard to the service flow, a lot has changed to try to improve that. In the early days of Mixed Fleet when there was a lot more emphasis on previous experience, you used to do a nearly seven week training course which included Club World and First training. Theoretically, your first longhaul flight might have been in a premium cabin. Now the new entrant course is shorter and people return to training to focus on premium cabins once they’ve built up experience elsewhere. The problem remains that with a relatively high churn rate, few stay long enough to gain the experience to really deliver that premium service with flair. Often the ones that do go for promotion to CSM, so - despite being written into the Club World Service - are not as actively involved with the Club service and their involvement in First is limited to greetings and service recovery.

It’s a shame as it could be an incredible environment and there are some lovely crew members on MF who get tarred with a particular reputation but I don’t see it much changing any time soon as the churn rate means a relatively low union penetration which weakens the bargaining to improve things considerably.
My postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent my employer’s positions, strategies or opinions
 
Ryanair01
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:27 pm

Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:35 pm

findingnema wrote:
What is pretty much the case now is, as you say, that Mixed Fleet is only really attractive to those who are currently working for less stable airlines or who are starting out in the industry. Before the strikes you’d get a fairly good mix of experienced fliers which seems to happen less these days as the contract still remains relatively uncompetitive. It’s not unusual to see people returning to easyJet for the contract and pay, once the novelty of doing longhaul wears off. That said, there has been a significant contingent of Monarch crew joining and quite a lot of TCX will be joining in the new year.

With regard to the service flow, a lot has changed to try to improve that. In the early days of Mixed Fleet when there was a lot more emphasis on previous experience, you used to do a nearly seven week training course which included Club World and First training. Theoretically, your first longhaul flight might have been in a premium cabin. Now the new entrant course is shorter and people return to training to focus on premium cabins once they’ve built up experience elsewhere. The problem remains that with a relatively high churn rate, few stay long enough to gain the experience to really deliver that premium service with flair. Often the ones that do go for promotion to CSM, so - despite being written into the Club World Service - are not as actively involved with the Club service and their involvement in First is limited to greetings and service recovery.

It’s a shame as it could be an incredible environment and there are some lovely crew members on MF who get tarred with a particular reputation but I don’t see it much changing any time soon as the churn rate means a relatively low union penetration which weakens the bargaining to improve things considerably.


I know a couple of people who moved over to MF when Monarch stopped doing longhaul. When they all started it was a 7-week course, didn't know that had changed. I think they struggled adapting to the differing service expectations of other cultures, not just English package holiday types and still don't like that aspect.

I'm surprised BA have taken TCX crew who always used to have a somewhat militant reputation, ironically dating back to British Airtours days.
 
gunnerman
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:08 pm

Before the 2010 cabin crew strikes BASSA had a lot of influence but failed to get what they wanted as they were up against Willie Walsh who fought them. The moment that Mixed Fleet was the only way into cabin crew recruitment at LHR the influence of BASSA was on the wane with their more militant members inevitably leaving sooner or later. The MF crew are younger, less militant, less likely to join a union and some don't stay for a long time with BA.
Last edited by gunnerman on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
findingnema
Posts: 93
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:09 pm

Ryanair01 wrote:

I'm surprised BA have taken TCX crew who always used to have a somewhat militant reputation, ironically dating back to British Airtours days.


I think that it was a PR stunt more than anything else. Jet2, EasyJet, Virgin and Qantas had all made a big deal of their recruitment campaigns to get some of the people from TCX who were made redundant and had received good publicity for doing so. TCX did have some very good legacy contracts but I’ve never heard of them being thought of as militant anywhere. If anything, certainly the MYT side gave back a lot of concessions to try and keep the airline and the company afloat. Even so, some will take the offer for sure, but a lot have found employment elsewhere. Like you say, plus ça change considering that the TCX side evolved from Thomas Cook buying Caledonian in around 1999, itself evolved from British Airtours.
My postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent my employer’s positions, strategies or opinions
 
BAorNoWay
Posts: 58
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:10 pm

Baexecutive wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:
ClassicLover wrote:

London City is done by CityFlyer crew who cover the routes out of there only, as CityFlyer is a subsidiary.
.


It’s worth noting that Cityflyer crews are paid significantly more than their Mixed fleet counterparts, due partly to the fact they get “London Weighting” and rosters are made up of mostly nightstops.


Cityflyer and LGW based colleagues are on significantly less salary and flight pay than LHR (all fleets). The hourly rate/basic pay at LCY/LGW is considerably less than at Mixed Fleet, the weighting only makes a small impact.


I’m afraid I believe your statement above to be incorrect. Whilst the hourly rate of Mixed Fleet might be slightly higher than CityFlyer, it is only a matter of pennies an hour not pounds.

CityFlyer Main Crew earn more than Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew.

Mixed Fleet CSM’s earn more than CityFlyer CSM’s, but only a few thousand pounds more annually, and they have much greater responsibility. CityFlyer CSM’s only manage one other crew member on a flight (2 crew operation), whereas a Mixed Fleet CSM manages up to 22 on a A380. In addition, Mixed Fleet CSM’s are also responsible for managing a team of cabin crew on the ground as part of their role and have to get involved in office days such as recruitment, whereas CityFlyer CSM’s just do the job and go home/go to the hotel.

CityFlyer do long tours, so their cabin crew can be away for days at a time working around Europe, which means their additional hourly rate that is added to their salary and London weighting can quickly add up. I know for a fact from speaking to friends who work for both Mixed Fleet and CityFlyer that the CityFlyer junior cabin crew earn more than their Mixed Fleet counterparts. Arguably, they also work harder as there are only two cabin crew on each flight.

London Gatwick crews earn the least amongst all the fleets, and friends have told me a number of Gatwick crew have moved to Mixed Fleet/CityFlyer as a result.
 
Baexecutive
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:21 pm

BAorNoWay wrote:
Baexecutive wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:

It’s worth noting that Cityflyer crews are paid significantly more than their Mixed fleet counterparts, due partly to the fact they get “London Weighting” and rosters are made up of mostly nightstops.


Cityflyer and LGW based colleagues are on significantly less salary and flight pay than LHR (all fleets). The hourly rate/basic pay at LCY/LGW is considerably less than at Mixed Fleet, the weighting only makes a small impact.


I’m afraid I believe your statement above to be incorrect. Whilst the hourly rate of Mixed Fleet might be slightly higher than CityFlyer, it is only a matter of pennies an hour not pounds.

CityFlyer Main Crew earn more than Mixed Fleet Cabin Crew.

Mixed Fleet CSM’s earn more than CityFlyer CSM’s, but only a few thousand pounds more annually, and they have much greater responsibility. CityFlyer CSM’s only manage one other crew member on a flight (2 crew operation), whereas a Mixed Fleet CSM manages up to 22 on a A380. In addition, Mixed Fleet CSM’s are also responsible for managing a team of cabin crew on the ground as part of their role and have to get involved in office days such as recruitment, whereas CityFlyer CSM’s just do the job and go home/go to the hotel.

CityFlyer do long tours, so their cabin crew can be away for days at a time working around Europe, which means their additional hourly rate that is added to their salary and London weighting can quickly add up. I know for a fact from speaking to friends who work for both Mixed Fleet and CityFlyer that the CityFlyer junior cabin crew earn more than their Mixed Fleet counterparts. Arguably, they also work harder as there are only two cabin crew on each flight.

London Gatwick crews earn the least amongst all the fleets, and friends have told me a number of Gatwick crew have moved to Mixed Fleet/CityFlyer as a result.


Interesting to know. Do you know how much Cityflyer crew typically make on average out of interest?
 
USAirKid
Posts: 560
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:36 am

findingnema What does “ICCs” mean?
 
findingnema
Posts: 93
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:45 am

USAirKid wrote:
findingnema What does “ICCs” mean?


International Cabin Crew. These are non-UK based cabin crew, based in locations where typically there was a linguistic and cultural need for having native speakers on the route. They form part of the crew complement on that route and usually work in set positions in Club (business) and Traveller (economy). There used to be many more ICC bases, but recently BA moved to hire language speakers based in London, as they can be used on other routes besides the language speaker specific route for which they were hired to maximise their roster flexibility.
My postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent my employer’s positions, strategies or opinions
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 232
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:00 am

I flew DEN-LHR this year with what had to be a MF crew. Most of them weren't any older than 30.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:02 am

Definitely a very interesting non-merging tier system akin to what most US legacy carriers adopted in the 1980s. AA’s two-tier system was never intended to merge, but a merge was won in the next contract ratified in early 1988. UA’s two-tier system had a built-in merge at 5 years seniority which AA’s Crandall said was a mistake as HE had envisioned the lower tier at AA becoming the tier of the future.

I know there has been lots of stratification of wages and contracts at BA as they incorporated BCAL; etc. and remember one strike in the 90s where the legacy BA Union (BASSA) struck while the union representing former BCAL flight attendants (UNITE) did not.

However, where I get confused are the terms “new contract” and “old contract” from the 90s and early years of the Millennium. I was at a party before Christmas 2002 in the Hollywood Hills where I got to talking to 2 BA flight attendants who were on layover. They explained that one was “old contract” and one was “new contract.” I took their explanation to mean that old contract got paid more than new contract and that they never merged. I’m guessing that old and new contract merged when Worldwide was created vs Mixed Fleet? Can someone explain?
 
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vhtje
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:18 am

In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 179
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:14 am

Baexecutive wrote:

Interesting to know. Do you know how much Cityflyer crew typically make on average out of interest?


Daughter is there currently and is easily taking home 1.8/2k+ a month after tax even in the winter.

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


Mixed fleet.
 
Baexecutive
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:49 am

mattyfitzg wrote:
Baexecutive wrote:

Interesting to know. Do you know how much Cityflyer crew typically make on average out of interest?


Daughter is there currently and is easily taking home 1.8/2k+ a month after tax even in the winter.

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


Mixed fleet.


Interesting, thank you.
 
Andy33
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:05 am

mattyfitzg wrote:

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


Mixed fleet.


I'm not so sure about that. At the time it was said that they were placed in Eurofleet, which was otherwise closed to new entrants and transfers by then.
 
Baexecutive
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:11 am

Andy33 wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


Mixed fleet.


I'm not so sure about that. At the time it was said that they were placed in Eurofleet, which was otherwise closed to new entrants and transfers by then.


They were offered either Eurofleet or Mixed Fleet (with a payment).
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:20 am

Baexecutive wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:



Mixed fleet.


I'm not so sure about that. At the time it was said that they were placed in Eurofleet, which was otherwise closed to new entrants and transfers by then.


They were offered either Eurofleet or Mixed Fleet (with a payment).


Correct. I believe it was Eurofleet or Mixed Fleet with a £10,000 payment. Anacdotally, I think most went to Eurofleet as it was a better contract overall and of course better paid.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
Arion640
Posts: 2832
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Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:48 am

mattyfitzg wrote:
Baexecutive wrote:

Interesting to know. Do you know how much Cityflyer crew typically make on average out of interest?


Daughter is there currently and is easily taking home 1.8/2k+ a month after tax even in the winter.

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


Mixed fleet.


And you don’t have to work Saturday evenings and Sunday mornings.
1973-2020
 
findingnema
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 1:14 am

Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:23 am

vhtje wrote:
In which group did the ex-BMI crew end up when BA took over BMI in 2012?


It depends. If you were bmi mainline based at LHR you were given the option of either Eurofleet or Mixed Fleet. If you took MF, you were given a payment made in two parts (one immediately and one after so much time spent) to buy you out of your bmi contract and put you on an MF one. If you went to Eurofleet you effectively were TUPE’d across with your bmi contract and rank.

If you were from any of the mainline outstations, then you were made redundant but given a guaranteed interview for Mixed Fleet. Obviously having been made redundant you rejoined so had no length of service or old contract. Bmibaby was shut down by IAG and all were made redundant. Bmi regional was sold on to investors although since closed down, and none were offered the choice of staying at regional or moving across.
My postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent my employer’s positions, strategies or opinions
 
findingnema
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 1:14 am

Re: What's the difference between Worldwide fleet and Mixed fleet at BA?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:28 am

millionsofmiles wrote:

However, where I get confused are the terms “new contract” and “old contract” from the 90s and early years of the Millennium. I was at a party before Christmas 2002 in the Hollywood Hills where I got to talking to 2 BA flight attendants who were on layover. They explained that one was “old contract” and one was “new contract.” I took their explanation to mean that old contract got paid more than new contract and that they never merged. I’m guessing that old and new contract merged when Worldwide was created vs Mixed Fleet? Can someone explain?


If this was in 2002, then this was way before Mixed Fleet, which didn’t come in until autumn 2010. In old money, ”old contract” and “new contract” always meant whether you were on a pre-1997 or post-1997 contract. The 1997 contract was, from what I recall, introduced under the Ayling leadership and resulted in some industrial action, but was ultimately introduced with amended pay structures and in turn, absence management. There was then a 2010 contract introduced at Gatwick which formed much of the basis for Mixed Fleet later that year.
My postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent my employer’s positions, strategies or opinions

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