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Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:22 pm

I would not be so sure about what is here to stay or not, the whole world is changing at a tremendous speed
 
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flee
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:29 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:40 pm

Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


I dont believe this will be just an LH phenomenon.
 
na
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:43 pm

flee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.


...and in the case of the 744 its only an acceleration of one of two years as those Frames in question are 22 - 24 years old and well beyond 100.000 flight Hours. LH doesnt loose anything by retiring them now.
 
AZa346
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:53 pm

Lewton wrote:
Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.

Don't you think that many of those (DUE!) refunds would be going to families and companies in the named countries, thus making it even harder for them to sail through the crisis? Intercontinental fares might go up to 1000 euros, so that is a full month of rent and some groceries if we talk about a family, or half of a decent salary for an employe....keep in mind that everything is very connected within the EU. Plus Germany would be going against EUROPEAN regulations, so same level of those for which they are standing up so firmly on another front...
 
acavpics
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:01 pm

What long haul routes do we think would be on the chopping block, given that quite a few widebodies are being retired?
 
acavpics
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:02 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I'm betting none of LH's A380's ever fly again. Their trip cost is too high and they are too hard to fill in a post Corona world.


I dont believe this will be just an LH phenomenon.


No chance of them appearing during December 2020 holiday season? (Assuming that COVID is under control by then)
 
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par13del
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:04 pm

Lewton wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".

Its one of the founding principles or strengths of Airbus, cockpit commonality that is, so don't knock commonality.
 
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par13del
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:10 pm

Lewton wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
it is hilarious how Germany is bending rules, considering its strict lack of flexibility with the respect to other countries... both hopefully the lufthansa group will emerge in a decent and competitive way out of this

Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.
It is doing the best it can to support its economy in this unprecedented crisis.

Italy, Spain, Greece etc want to support their economies just like Germany is doing, but because they do not have the money they are asking for Germany to let them all borrow money collectively.
Personally, I really really want this to happen.

However your accusation against Germany not allowing others to bend the rules is ridiculous. They are free to bend any rules they want as long as they have the cash.

The question is not whether Germany will let them bend the rules or not. The questions is whether Germany will sign off their loans or not.

So is it safe to say that in exchange for the approval of those loans, those counties will support Germany's "bending" of the rules to support LH?
 
Aither
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:15 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.


Where it works the A380 is a real cash cow. And airlines need cash.
Never trust the obvious
 
rlwynn
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:16 pm

The seats will be taken out of three A330's to use as cargo planes.
I can drive faster than you
 
B764er
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:17 pm

The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:25 pm

B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.


Hi Fly is taking delivery of the A339 (why an ACMI outfit is taking delivery of new planes is curious). That said, I believe that the A346 is too big for a charter outfit, as it can't go anywhere close to maximal capacity in a high-density configuration. Later A330-300s coming off lease, or with leases rejected, would be more ideal.

na wrote:
flee wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I'm actually surprised that LH is retiring A346s as opposed to all of its A388s, as the A346 is a better belly cargo hauler. The B748s do have a place and role in the network at FRA. Yes the A388 is newer, but the A346 is way more versatile.

Their reason for retiring A346/B744 was that these aircraft are not as environmentally friendly.


...and in the case of the 744 its only an acceleration of one of two years as those Frames in question are 22 - 24 years old and well beyond 100.000 flight Hours. LH doesnt loose anything by retiring them now.


As for the A346s, it might make more sense if one is talking about the early frames, which are likely approaching a heavy check. I expected the B744s to go. As for the B779, I'm not sure that makes much sense in the LH network; the A35K might make more sense as one could opt to put first class in those frames and make MUC's long haul fleet exclusively A350s. A version without F could be used at FRA, as part of a leaner Lufthansa.
 
Toinou
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:34 pm

B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.

Am I mean to think that this may be the last time EVER we discuss about Air Belgium? I can't see how they could survive what's happening at the moment.
 
na
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:38 pm

OMAAbound wrote:
Also which of the A380’s and A340’s will be getting a free one-way ticket to the scrap yard?
OMAA


A340-600s D-AIHC and D-AIHE are reported to be leaving for Teruel soon. Both are 16 years old.
 
na
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:38 pm

na wrote:
OMAAbound wrote:
Also which of the A380’s and A340’s will be getting a free one-way ticket to the scrap yard?
OMAA


A340-600s D-AIHC and D-AIHE are reported to be leaving for Teruel soon. Both are 16 years old.

As for the A380s I guess those will be put into long term storage.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:39 pm

Toinou wrote:
B764er wrote:
The A340-600 is a beast of a plane. I hope Belgium Air and Hi-fly will check the retiring LH ones out and maybe buy a few each.

Am I mean to think that this may be the last time EVER we discuss about Air Belgium? I can't see how they could survive what's happening at the moment.

It will be tough. They were essentially surviving on 787 RR Trent groundings. Now replacing that loss capacity is less of a concern for airlines.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Retiring Some A380s, A340s, 747s, and A320s

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:49 pm

Lewton wrote:
Revelation wrote:
What I find odd is no one type or sub-type is being eliminated which would seem to be the way to save the most money. I guess LH is really committed to fleet diversity.

Again this obsession with "commonality".

Commonality has its positives: it's simply easier and more flexible to deal with a small number of large fleets rather than a large number of small fleets. In a recent thread Lightsaber did some math and concluded you needed to have a fleet size of 17 to get meaningful economy of scale. VF gave us where LH finds itself:

VirginFlyer wrote:
What does this mean in terms of how many are left? Looking at what the fleet stood at before this crisis started:

  • A320-200: 73 down to 62 (assuming when they say A320 they just mean A320 and not A320 family, but that’s not clear)
  • A340-600: 17 down to 10
  • A380-800: 14 down to 8
  • B747-400: 13 down to 8

The fact they are referring to this as the first restructuring package means there could well be more to come as agreements are worked out with employee groups. It will be interesting to see how the fleet actually ends up when all the dust settles.

V/F

The Trents on A346 and A380 were bespoke models on small production runs, so rebuilds must be darn expensive. The CF6s on 744s are still in production for use on 767 and for spares for the rest of the (now dwindling fast) 744 fleet.

Diversity also has benefits: You can match the airplane's characteristics to the route more accurately, and if you have a MRO operation you can keep proficiency across more aircraft types increasing potential business.

I think in this case LH is not planning to shrink permanently so is keeping a core of aircraft in different sizes so when recovery happens it can again match aircraft to routes and regain economy of scale.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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metalinyoni
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:55 pm

Are the commonality costs not more significant at the beginning of the introduction of a new type and as such have already been paid? The pilots and engineers have been trained so it’s not too relevant for on going costs?
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:56 pm

Regarding commonality, for many airlines, that does come into play. However, for Lufthansa, which accepts work on a lot of models, and which also derives income from third-party maintenance from other airlines around the world, it may make sense to have more models in order to be able to accept work, and Lufthansa's fleet over the entire group is around 760 planes, with wide-body planes ranging from the B763 to the A388.
 
RvA
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:15 pm

About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:21 pm

the million questions? what routes are going to go? How many A350s will arrive this year? and where will the A380 stay?
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG - UA
 
AZa346
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:22 pm

RvA wrote:
About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)

EU N. 261/2004
 
viennafly
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:40 pm

here is a nice overview over the ages and numbers of fleets of the LH Fleet:

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/eurowings
 
KingB123
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:44 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
any EU airline can access the german market


yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!
King B
 
Eiszeit
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:51 pm

KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


EK, QR, EY get whatever the bilateral between their home country and germany says nothing more nothing less, they have nothing to do with any EU rules. If the UAE or Qatar want to pay the LH bailout give them access.
Last edited by Eiszeit on Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
edealinfo
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:52 pm

I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.

You are assuming that LH needs to maintain it’s pre-COVID size for the next two years. In reality they need to get smaller. So dumping aircraft now, and using new aircraft to grow or further replace (mixed with deferments) later as required.
 
fraT
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:17 pm

KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

yes but we are not talking about EU airlines here, we are talking about airlines that can't have unlimited access to the market, such as Qatar,Emirates,Etihad


And why would Germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from Germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


In contrast to the home countries of the carriers you are mentioning, LH is not responsible for allowing or disallowing landing rights in Germany. They have the right to advocate their position to the government but the decision is made by the government, not LH.
And why should the government change the bilateral? What gain would Germany have? New routes for German carriers? Well there are not that many airports in those countries so there would be no gain at all. The German government's role is not to grant the Gulf carriers wish list, even though some users here seem to think so. How many people in Germany are employed by these carriers?
Is it protective? Sure it is but that's what basically every country is doing to protect their economy. And by the way, who is bringing back all the German tourists from around the world, many who flew there with the Gulf carriers? Right, it's LH (together with DE and now NZ as well). Will the Gulf carriers refund the partially used tickets? We'll see.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:23 pm

edealinfo wrote:
I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.

Interesting/relevant twitter comment:

Andreas Spaeth @SpaethFlies

"Airlines retiring their classic fleet like #A346, 744s, #A380s do it long term or probably forever. But the crisis is a huge chance to go to new gen aircraft", says Christoph Müller, formerly with LH, EI, MH, EK @CAPA_Aviation

Ref: https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 1270980609

A lot of the old aircraft (744, A34x, etc) were on the path to retirement so a lot of heavy maintenance was not going to happen. Now we can see the oldest are parked, the younger ones are doing a few flights but also avoiding heavy maintenance. New planes come with a bill of course but also come with better fuel economy and a maintenance holiday since they are young and nothing has worn out yet. Something tells me a few fleets will not return by the time the 'rona has ended.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
RvA
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:29 pm

AZa346 wrote:
RvA wrote:
About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)

EU N. 261/2004


This has a timeline in there for refunds? What is it? Also isnt that ruling excluding things outside airline control? Can they control this?
 
KingB123
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:23 pm

fraT wrote:
KingB123 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:

And why would Germany or the EU care about access for these?


So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from Germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


In contrast to the home countries of the carriers you are mentioning, LH is not responsible for allowing or disallowing landing rights in Germany. They have the right to advocate their position to the government but the decision is made by the government, not LH.
And why should the government change the bilateral? What gain would Germany have? New routes for German carriers? Well there are not that many airports in those countries so there would be no gain at all. The German government's role is not to grant the Gulf carriers wish list, even though some users here seem to think so. How many people in Germany are employed by these carriers?
Is it protective? Sure it is but that's what basically every country is doing to protect their economy. And by the way, who is bringing back all the German tourists from around the world, many who flew there with the Gulf carriers? Right, it's LH (together with DE and now NZ as well). Will the Gulf carriers refund the partially used tickets? We'll see.


LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government. The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down, more money pumped into the local economies of many german cities which can get an ME3 service. These cities have been neglected by LH. Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.
King B
 
fraT
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:35 pm

KingB123 wrote:
fraT wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from Germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


In contrast to the home countries of the carriers you are mentioning, LH is not responsible for allowing or disallowing landing rights in Germany. They have the right to advocate their position to the government but the decision is made by the government, not LH.
And why should the government change the bilateral? What gain would Germany have? New routes for German carriers? Well there are not that many airports in those countries so there would be no gain at all. The German government's role is not to grant the Gulf carriers wish list, even though some users here seem to think so. How many people in Germany are employed by these carriers?
Is it protective? Sure it is but that's what basically every country is doing to protect their economy. And by the way, who is bringing back all the German tourists from around the world, many who flew there with the Gulf carriers? Right, it's LH (together with DE and now NZ as well). Will the Gulf carriers refund the partially used tickets? We'll see.


LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government. The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down, more money pumped into the local economies of many german cities which can get an ME3 service. These cities have been neglected by LH. Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.


So you think, the carrier with which many of those stranded people hold a ticket for the return flight has no responsibility? Interesting. They cashed the money for a return ticket.

To your point of more competition. The ME3 carriers bring no new nonstop destinations beside their respective home airport. But that is not the business they are looking for. Their main business is to bring people to other places beyond their hubs. And many of those 1-stop connections are already well covered from carriers outside the LH group.
And please explain which money is pumped in the local economy with a single flight of a gulf carrier?

And speaking of bailouts: Hasn't EK already granted a bailout from government of the UAE and is now asking for additional loans?
 
LH779
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:44 pm

KingB123 wrote:
The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 ...

Emirates and Etihad can serve four airports with unlimited frequencies and Qatar has 35 weekly flights, it's not like they are not allowed to fly to Germany.
KingB123 wrote:
These cities have been neglected by LH.

I what way? Does LH really need to offer longhaul flight from every airport to not "neglect" it? They offer the same as the ME3: a one stop connection. There might be a few one stops that are not yet covered by LH, AF, KL, BA or TK, but allowing more ME3 flights won't dramatically change the possible connections from the smaller german airports.
 
patrickw421
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:45 pm

RvA wrote:
AZa346 wrote:
RvA wrote:
About the rules everyone is saying LH is breaking, I’m genuinely curious what the rule is regarding refunds. They are temporarily not allowing them is my understanding, which is what a lot of ticket based sectors are doing by advising refunds will be possible shortly.
What is the rule LH (and others) are breaking if they are deferring refunds? What is the time rule they are not adhering to? Does it also apply to other sectors? (So are the concert companies behind 2 concerts I bought tickets for breaking the same rule?)

EU N. 261/2004


This has a timeline in there for refunds? What is it? Also isnt that ruling excluding things outside airline control? Can they control this?


Article 8 of the EU261/2004 has specified the right of reimbursement as reimbursement within seven days. It also mentions the refund should be made by caah/bank transfer unless the passenger agree it to be in voucher with a signed agreement.

While the coronavirus has considered as extraordinary circumstances, it only affect the right to compensation, but not the right to refund or duty of care.

There is a document by the European Commission on passenger rights during the period of coronavirus outbreak. It also mentions about rights of reimbursement by cash is not affected by the decision of some airline to refund in voucher for canceled flights. So basically the passengers should be able to request cash refund if the airline canceled the flight, while voucher is acceptable if the passengers cancel the trip themselves.

The document can be found here: http://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-trav ... ngerrights.

Back to the topic... I'm curious their wording of first package... Do they think this first package is sufficient for situation up till now, or they already have more in mind but just can't finalize it yet.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:48 pm

KingB123 wrote:
fraT wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from Germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


In contrast to the home countries of the carriers you are mentioning, LH is not responsible for allowing or disallowing landing rights in Germany. They have the right to advocate their position to the government but the decision is made by the government, not LH.
And why should the government change the bilateral? What gain would Germany have? New routes for German carriers? Well there are not that many airports in those countries so there would be no gain at all. The German government's role is not to grant the Gulf carriers wish list, even though some users here seem to think so. How many people in Germany are employed by these carriers?
Is it protective? Sure it is but that's what basically every country is doing to protect their economy. And by the way, who is bringing back all the German tourists from around the world, many who flew there with the Gulf carriers? Right, it's LH (together with DE and now NZ as well). Will the Gulf carriers refund the partially used tickets? We'll see.


LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government. The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down, more money pumped into the local economies of many german cities which can get an ME3 service. These cities have been neglected by LH. Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.


Can we please get back on topic? Thanks
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:29 am

ACA772LR wrote:
Can we please get back on topic? Thanks

^^
Blerg wrote:
Anyone know what cuts we are going to see at OS and SN?

The Austrian government is reportedly ready to support OS with up to 800 million € (US$ 900 million). https://www.airliners.de/800-millionen- ... raum/54760
However, LH (or OS themselves) aren't too happy with the prospect of partial government ownership. Filing bankruptcy is on the table, although I would expect this to be closer to a US chapter 11 bankruptcy than a full liquidation. So basically, OS management is exploring all possibilities. We'll find out next week because that's when OS has to request extra government assistance. https://boerse.ard.de/aktien/lufthansa- ... nd100.html

The above link also mentions that according to LH CEO Carsten Spohr "Lufthansa is losing 1 million € per hour" and they'll require 9 - 10 billion € in cash or loans to survive 2020, with currently over 99% reduction in passenger count. As a first step in reorganisation, the IT and financial departments will become one.

LX will most likely receive loans from the Swiss government but with the requirement that these loans are used for LX only.
 
RvA
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:39 am

Still actually pretty decently positioned vs many of their competitors. Lots of numbers getting thrown around but with their cash reserves and losing a million per day they can make it through the summer without help even if need be. Not sure many others will manage that.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:44 am

RvA wrote:
Still actually pretty decently positioned vs many of their competitors. Lots of numbers getting thrown around but with their cash reserves and losing a million per day they can make it through the summer without help even if need be. Not sure many others will manage that.

It's not per day, it's per hour. That's 20 - 30 million per day. :smile: Still only half compared to DL but certainly not peanuts.
 
787X30
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:56 am

KingB123 wrote:
LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government. The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down, ...

What a desperate comment. You're calling out others' lobbyism? Please, think again...

ACA772LR wrote:
Can we please get back on topic? Thanks

:checkmark:
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:03 am

KingB123 wrote:
fraT wrote:
KingB123 wrote:

So why is LH getting a bailout when its against the EU rules? Germany and the EU should care because if you're willing to flex your rules to save a carrier then lets make the playing field even and get airlines like EK,QR,EY unlimited access to Germany. Its like on one hand, LH is protective and ensures that theres no competition to compete with from Germany but at the same time is running out with its hand to get a bail out. Forget it!


In contrast to the home countries of the carriers you are mentioning, LH is not responsible for allowing or disallowing landing rights in Germany. They have the right to advocate their position to the government but the decision is made by the government, not LH.
And why should the government change the bilateral? What gain would Germany have? New routes for German carriers? Well there are not that many airports in those countries so there would be no gain at all. The German government's role is not to grant the Gulf carriers wish list, even though some users here seem to think so. How many people in Germany are employed by these carriers?
Is it protective? Sure it is but that's what basically every country is doing to protect their economy. And by the way, who is bringing back all the German tourists from around the world, many who flew there with the Gulf carriers? Right, it's LH (together with DE and now NZ as well). Will the Gulf carriers refund the partially used tickets? We'll see.


LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government. The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down, more money pumped into the local economies of many german cities which can get an ME3 service. These cities have been neglected by LH. Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.


If the crisis has shown one thing, it is that the national airline is a strategic asset and you can be certain that LH will be even more protected than before. (and to be honest the ME3 are also getting lot of state aid)
 
danipawa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:55 pm

Airbus A330 -223 324 OO-SFU Brussels Airlines ferried 09apr20 BRU-MZJ on return to lessor ex M-ABFL

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2
 
danipawa
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:56 pm

Airbus A330 -223 324 OO-SFU Brussels Airlines ferried 09apr20 BRU-MZJ on return to lessor ex M-ABFL

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=2
 
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LTU330
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:19 pm

AZa346 wrote:
Lewton wrote:
Germany did not ask for money from any other country in order to bend any rules.

Don't you think that many of those (DUE!) refunds would be going to families and companies in the named countries, thus making it even harder for them to sail through the crisis? Intercontinental fares might go up to 1000 euros, so that is a full month of rent and some groceries if we talk about a family, or half of a decent salary for an employe....keep in mind that everything is very connected within the EU. Plus Germany would be going against EUROPEAN regulations, so same level of those for which they are standing up so firmly on another front...


The EU have already said that during this crisis the individual Countries can financially support their Companies, so there is nothing to see here other than the fact people who paid for tickets are only being offered vouchers for future flights. For some people that is not an option. You should get your money back. I have had two return flights already cancelled. The first one I was told would be refunded. Three weeks later no money has come back. The second one I was only offered a voucher. In three weeks time I have a paid €2700 Business Class flight booked. There is no way I will be accepting a voucher for that amount. The other two flights at less than €200 each I can accept.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
I am not sure about the logic of this. Shouldn't LH simply have deferred all new deliveries for 2 years? Fuel prices will be low at least for the next 2 years which means that older aircraft are still good.

Interesting/relevant twitter comment:

Andreas Spaeth @SpaethFlies

"Airlines retiring their classic fleet like #A346, 744s, #A380s do it long term or probably forever. But the crisis is a huge chance to go to new gen aircraft", says Christoph Müller, formerly with LH, EI, MH, EK @CAPA_Aviation

Ref: https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 1270980609


I'll be happy to correct the Muller/Spaeth babble:

Buying expensive new planes that don't pay for themselves is a huge burden in a time of grossly negative free cash flow and ample dirt-cheap used aircraft and low fuel prices.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:07 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The Austrian government is reportedly ready to support OS with up to 800 million € (US$ 900 million). https://www.airliners.de/800-millionen- ... raum/54760
However, LH (or OS themselves) aren't too happy with the prospect of partial government ownership. Filing bankruptcy is on the table, although I would expect this to be closer to a US chapter 11 bankruptcy than a full liquidation. So basically, OS management is exploring all possibilities. We'll find out next week because that's when OS has to request extra government assistance. https://boerse.ard.de/aktien/lufthansa- ... nd100.html

The above link also mentions that according to LH CEO Carsten Spohr "Lufthansa is losing 1 million € per hour" and they'll require 9 - 10 billion € in cash or loans to survive 2020, with currently over 99% reduction in passenger count. As a first step in reorganisation, the IT and financial departments will become one.

LX will most likely receive loans from the Swiss government but with the requirement that these loans are used for LX only.

If it is a CH11 style bankruptcy the current ownership gets wiped out (they end up with at best pennies on the dollar) and the creditors get to elect a new board which installs new senior management. The stock of the old company becomes next to worthless. This means the current owners and managers would definitely prefer a government bailout, even if it comes with government ownership of some shares, rather than CH11 bankruptcy.

The fact that so many entities complain about investment tied to government ownership is they are greedy: they want a bail out with no strings attached, much like many banks got in the 2008 GFC. We shall see if they get their way or not.

I know why people hate US style CH11 bankruptcy but it's usually for the wrong reason. CH11 would allow LX to survive and thus remain a competitive force rather than disappearing and allowing new entrants to emerge which is why many hate it. CH11 however does wipe out the current owners/investors and the current creditors gain control of the company so it's devastating to the current owners/investors, many of whom are company employees who hold significant amount of stock. Electing to go to CH11 means the current management cannot come up with any other option. Once in bankruptcy anything can happen, including the creditors deciding to liquidate the company if that is what provides the best return on investment for themselves.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Revelation
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I'll be happy to correct the Muller/Spaeth babble:

Buying expensive new planes that don't pay for themselves is a huge burden in a time of grossly negative free cash flow and ample dirt-cheap used aircraft and low fuel prices.

In practice I don't think it works the way you suggest.

After 9/11/2001 we saw the DC10s, 747 classics, 727s and 737 jurassics go to the desert and never come back, even though they were paid for and fuel prices were cheap.

We did see MOL make a tremendous deal for NGs that let him change the efficiency profile of his airline since Boeing was desperate for a big deal to keep its production line moving.

We're already being told this move by LH is permanent, these planes are retired. We've heard talk of them asking for postponements for new aircraft but we have not heard them say they will bring back A340s because A350s/789s are too expensive or bring back A320s since A320neo are expensive.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
RvA
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:45 pm

mxaxai wrote:
RvA wrote:
Still actually pretty decently positioned vs many of their competitors. Lots of numbers getting thrown around but with their cash reserves and losing a million per day they can make it through the summer without help even if need be. Not sure many others will manage that.

It's not per day, it's per hour. That's 20 - 30 million per day. :smile: Still only half compared to DL but certainly not peanuts.


Sorry yes it’s what I meant, per hour. Should be ok on their reserves for 4-5 months without help.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:47 pm

D-AIHF is also scheduled to be sent to TEV on 14.04. despite having just returned from maintenance in MLA.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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zkojq
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:58 am

KingB123 wrote:
LH is indirectly responsible for not allowing the ME3 into Germany, they lobbied the german government against competition so that it can protect itself and now look at how it turned out, its getting a bailout from the government.


Blatantly ridiculous comment. You hate for Lufthansa is clear. Needing a bailout has nothing to do with competition from the ME3 (who are all getting bailouts, no?).

KingB123 wrote:
Why would it be the responsibility of the gulf airlines when people are stuck abroad, its not like the gulf brought the virus. It is for the german government to look after its citizens and people, not UAE or Qatar.


Well there are 15,000 German tourists stuck in New Zealand. Most of them came here on EK and SQ who suddenly and arbitrarily stopped flying here overnight, stranding them. The German government should send the bill for the repatriation flights directly to EK. After all EK is the one stranding them and then refusing refunds.

KingB123 wrote:
The German goverment should most definitely open its borders to the ME3 as the gains are massive for germans, more competition, drives prices down,


Why should the German government open up markets to airlines who are allowed to write their own rules regarding crew duty times? That's a state subsidy - not to mention a massive fatigue risk.
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