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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa Says A380s Won’t Return for at Least Two Years

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
When the time to recover to 2019 passenger numbers is increasingly moved backwards and were are now looking a 2023 or 2024 the A380 has no place in the industry any more.

Will EK be able to cope as a 77W-only airline?


No, they urgently need something smaller.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:26 pm

Eight A380s saved from the axe, says Spohr immediately after shareholders approve the government bailout.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 5949791237
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:28 pm

D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
danipawa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:33 pm

Boeing 747 -430 28285 1106 D-ABVR Lufthansa ferried 25jun20 FRA-LDE for onward storage
Boeing 747 -430 29871 1293 D-ABTK Lufthansa ferried 29jun20 FRA-ENS, for part-out & scrap
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:00 pm

A321Lufthansa wrote:
D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.


But EW doesn't have any -211s anymore ... (and when they still had, LH had more than 6 of the -211s)

It looks like the rest of the -211s will be out shortly. Interesting to see what will happen to the 2 newer ones.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Says A380s Won’t Return for at Least Two Years

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -two-years

So even the plan to fly the remaining 7 out of MUC is now uncertain.


Its 8, not 7.

They have 14 and 6 were sold to Airbus at specific dates. Spohr said at the GA (AHV) that it remains to be seen what happens to them.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:10 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.


But EW doesn't have any -211s anymore ... (and when they still had, LH had more than 6 of the -211s)

It looks like the rest of the -211s will be out shortly. Interesting to see what will happen to the 2 newer ones.

Sorry, I didn't express my opinion correctly. Under swap I meant D-AIZQ-ZV (total 6) being transferred back to LH (also they can be useful as they are with the regular rear configuration instead of the new one with claustrophobic lavatories and very small galley) and remaining 6 A320-211s being phased out.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:57 pm

That’s a bit of wishful thinking. LH won’t turn the clock back/the ship has sailed. There are many people who don’t care (e.g. the smaller examples in my family) or don’t know that there are differences within/between airlines. And the people who care+know get away with checking in early to select front seats.

LH won’t reconfigure EW planes (different front galley) or even more ridiculously accept a different galley layout + different amount of seats. There are enough neos coming in the next 3.5 years to fill any need. (As per the rescue package 80 planes until end of 23, I suspect the majority will be neos).
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:33 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
That’s a bit of wishful thinking. LH won’t turn the clock back/the ship has sailed. There are many people who don’t care (e.g. the smaller examples in my family) or don’t know that there are differences within/between airlines. And the people who care+know get away with checking in early to select front seats.

LH won’t reconfigure EW planes (different front galley) or even more ridiculously accept a different galley layout + different amount of seats. There are enough neos coming in the next 3.5 years to fill any need. (As per the rescue package 80 planes until end of 23, I suspect the majority will be neos).

Those 6 frames are initially from LH, so there was just 1 row added (174 vs 168) and nothing more, as I remember. So they are pretty easy to be reconfigured back to LH as it was done earlier with D-AIPT/Y/Z and D-AIQD/F/H/S.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm

By the way, what will be with EW A332s after liquidation of SunExpress Germany?
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:37 pm

mercure f-wtcc
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:02 pm

Looks like LH is doing training flights to keep the crews current: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/lh9919
A333 today, A20N yesterday.
 
LHA320
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:36 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Looks like LH is doing training flights to keep the crews current: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/lh9919
A333 today, A20N yesterday.


It's a combination of maintenance and crew flights. Both D-AINQ and D-AIKS were stored for over a month. As they will return to service shortly, they have to do a short check flight.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:44 pm

CEO Carsten Spohr said Aug. 6 that the group fleet will be permanently cut by 100 aircraft. With the return of demand for long-haul travel still unclear, Lufthansa is preparing fundamental cuts to the group’s long-haul fleet that are likely to see several types removed entirely.

Lufthansa Prepares Sweeping Changes To Long-Haul Fleet
https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... haul-fleet

Its A340 and 747-400 are likely not to return and the airline is moving towards a decision to not return any of the A380s to revenue service either.
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LHA320
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:08 pm

LAXintl wrote:
CEO Carsten Spohr said Aug. 6 that the group fleet will be permanently cut by 100 aircraft. With the return of demand for long-haul travel still unclear, Lufthansa is preparing fundamental cuts to the group’s long-haul fleet that are likely to see several types removed entirely.

Lufthansa Prepares Sweeping Changes To Long-Haul Fleet
https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... haul-fleet

Its A340 and 747-400 are likely not to return and the airline is moving towards a decision to not return any of the A380s to revenue service either.


True for the A340-600 but the A343 will not leave anytime soon. A332 of SN and 763 (at least a few) of OS can be added!
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DUSdude
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:39 pm

One would think a few excess A330s could be moved to Austrian as a stopgap to replace those ageing 767s and 777s.
 
vfw614
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 am

The A340-300 are ideally-sized aircraft in these times of weak demand, so my understanding is that they will be kept for the time being unlike the 747-400 and A340-600. So Lufthansa will focus on the 747-8 and the A340-300 for some time.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:54 am

And of course the A330s and A350.
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Capricorn
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:27 pm

LAXintl wrote: Its A340 and 747-400 are likely not to return and the airline is moving towards a decision to not return any of the A380s to revenue service either.


While this is a long overdue decision to finally simplify LH's long haul fleet, there are IMO still too many different AC types left group wide. With a reduction of about 100 frames but only permanently eliminating 3 types while at the same time adding 2, LH will become not less complex. But maybe I do not fully understand how things work at LH, especially the airline business in combination with maintenance ops (LH Technik).
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:58 pm

Capricorn wrote:
LAXintl wrote: Its A340 and 747-400 are likely not to return and the airline is moving towards a decision to not return any of the A380s to revenue service either.

While this is a long overdue decision to finally simplify LH's long haul fleet, there are IMO still too many different AC types left group wide. With a reduction of about 100 frames but only permanently eliminating 3 types while at the same time adding 2, LH will become not less complex. But maybe I do not fully understand how things work at LH, especially the airline business in combination with maintenance ops (LH Technik).

The AvWeek article suggests they will be getting rid of four aircraft models with different engines (A340-300, A340-600, A380, 747-400) and adding two staggered over time (787, 77X). I think it will be a meaningful simplification.

Andreas Spaeth @SpaethFlies tweets:

„The #Boeing747-8 will fly longer than the #A380“, former #Lufthansa chief aircraft purchaser and #Airbus marketing man Nico Buchholz explained during a visit to my office today. More soon @aerode #avgeek

Ref: https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 4299659266

It seems if LH really valued simplicity they wouldn't have ordered 787 at all, or they would have ordered 787 with GEnX not T1000.

I think there is more to the story than simplicity.
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:54 pm

So the 747-8 will be the only Lufthansa aircraft with First Class going forward. COVID has greatly accelerated the already planned phase out of First Class.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:12 am

Jetport wrote:
So the 747-8 will be the only Lufthansa aircraft with First Class going forward. COVID has greatly accelerated the already planned phase out of First Class.


Some of the 777x will have first class.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:23 am

WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:30 am

LX 340's & 77W's currently are the backbone of the longhaul-fleet. It's the 330's which are mainly stored ( in AMM ). I expect the 340's to stay for the coming years, especially since they have just received an expensive interior upgrade and have longer range, and therefore cargo capacity than the 330's.
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:56 pm

Nice to see a LH a343 (D-AIGZ) fly overhead just now departing YYZ
 
777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:12 am

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Nice to see a LH a343 (D-AIGZ) fly overhead just now departing YYZ


Been on the route since June :)
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:07 am

kimimm19 wrote:
WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...


Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...
 
kimimm19
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:04 pm

AirwayBill wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...


Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...


Although it's a smart move when considering those facets, I'm thinking about overcapacity issues they might have (especially with all the 77Ws now) and seeing as the a343s are the first ones that will be leaving the fleet, that it might put them on shaky ground?
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:32 pm

AirwayBill wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...


Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...


No need to worry about the 346, imho. They won’t come back.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
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eamondzhang
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:59 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...


Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...


Although it's a smart move when considering those facets, I'm thinking about overcapacity issues they might have (especially with all the 77Ws now) and seeing as the a343s are the first ones that will be leaving the fleet, that it might put them on shaky ground?

If you have an overcapacity issue then you need A343 way more than B77W - A343 can do everything 77W is doing albert with a smaller capacity, which is what they need right now. The plane is paid off, consumes less fuel, pays less charges and fees, and likely crewing cost is lower as well. As long as they're not maintenance dogs they're seriously more suitable in today's environment (given no new planes coming).

You can always put 77Ws into the desert until demand comes back, transfer to another entity within the group, end the lease prematurely if possible, etc.

Michael
 
DALCE
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:24 pm

3 of the 77W's have the Y-cabin removed to haul more cargo. LX will start operating ZRH-EZE, just for cargo with those frames. ( + other destinations )
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777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:19 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
WIth all this talk concerning the a343 at LH, I wonder what will happen to the ones at LX...


Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...


No need to worry about the 346, imho. They won’t come back.


I’m afraid you’re right, LH earlier this year said they would “reactivate the -600s if demand were too surge back to pre covid levels” but is that really going to happen now? I think we all realize the chances are extremely extremely slim. Which SUCKS for those who haven’t had the chance to fly on one of those beasts yet. The only airline I can see still having them after covid is Mahan Air. Plus Ultra just stored theirs. And the rest are doing just charter runs until retirement
 
DUSdude
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:08 pm

777luver wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:

Swiss CEO Thomas Klühr seems pretty confident with the A340-300 for at least a few years to come, describing it as "the ideal plane" to operate.

Article in German, Apr2020:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-setzt-bei-neustart-auf-airbus-a340

Ideal capacity given the context, good range, frames not too old but fully paid-off, just refurbished, low fuel prices, a lot plays in the LX 343’s favor I think.

Let’s see how things evolve!

Ps. I’m much more worried about the -600s at mainline LH...


No need to worry about the 346, imho. They won’t come back.


I’m afraid you’re right, LH earlier this year said they would “reactivate the -600s if demand were too surge back to pre covid levels” but is that really going to happen now? I think we all realize the chances are extremely extremely slim. Which SUCKS for those who haven’t had the chance to fly on one of those beasts yet. The only airline I can see still having them after covid is Mahan Air. Plus Ultra just stored theirs. And the rest are doing just charter runs until retirement


The A340-600's biggest problem is engine maintenance costs. The A343 uses the ubiquitous CFM56 engines, which benefit from massive economies of scale to keep costs for parts down. By contrast, the Trent500 on the A346 is unique to the A346/345, of which there are very few, so maintenance costs a fortune. Additionally, the A346 cannot fully utilize its cargo capacity without suffering major range restrictions. That's why LH has the lavatories and crew rest on the lower level, because that space can't otherwise be effectively used for cargo.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:28 pm

DUSdude wrote:
777luver wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

No need to worry about the 346, imho. They won’t come back.


I’m afraid you’re right, LH earlier this year said they would “reactivate the -600s if demand were too surge back to pre covid levels” but is that really going to happen now? I think we all realize the chances are extremely extremely slim. Which SUCKS for those who haven’t had the chance to fly on one of those beasts yet. The only airline I can see still having them after covid is Mahan Air. Plus Ultra just stored theirs. And the rest are doing just charter runs until retirement


The A340-600's biggest problem is engine maintenance costs. The A343 uses the ubiquitous CFM56 engines, which benefit from massive economies of scale to keep costs for parts down. By contrast, the Trent500 on the A346 is unique to the A346/345, of which there are very few, so maintenance costs a fortune. Additionally, the A346 cannot fully utilize its cargo capacity without suffering major range restrictions. That's why LH has the lavatories and crew rest on the lower level, because that space can't otherwise be effectively used for cargo.


I thought the A346 was a very good cargo hauler, but let down by its fuel efficiency (or lack thereof) and maintenance costs?
 
777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:00 pm

DUSdude wrote:
777luver wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

No need to worry about the 346, imho. They won’t come back.


I’m afraid you’re right, LH earlier this year said they would “reactivate the -600s if demand were too surge back to pre covid levels” but is that really going to happen now? I think we all realize the chances are extremely extremely slim. Which SUCKS for those who haven’t had the chance to fly on one of those beasts yet. The only airline I can see still having them after covid is Mahan Air. Plus Ultra just stored theirs. And the rest are doing just charter runs until retirement


The A340-600's biggest problem is engine maintenance costs. The A343 uses the ubiquitous CFM56 engines, which benefit from massive economies of scale to keep costs for parts down. By contrast, the Trent500 on the A346 is unique to the A346/345, of which there are very few, so maintenance costs a fortune. Additionally, the A346 cannot fully utilize its cargo capacity without suffering major range restrictions. That's why LH has the lavatories and crew rest on the lower level, because that space can't otherwise be effectively used for cargo.


Thank you for that info and insight. I think after corona The -600s may be finished. As for the -500, Azerbaijan Airlines has 1-2 left in service and I asked the airline on Twitter about those aircraft sticking around and they replied that they have no plans to retire them any time soon but again who knows
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:17 pm

Seem all A380s might be gone along with 744 and most of A340 fleet

Lufthansa to Shed Biggest Planes in Deepening Fleet Shakeup
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:28 pm

A real shame that they’re leaving :(
Sorta surprised that the A380s are all leaving, but I guess that when some of the A380s were retired, the fleet likely became too small to be economically viable, despite being good for routes to places like LA (same thing with Air France). A340s looked like they were on their way out, same with the 744s. All of them will likely remain in Europe for scrap (and not come state-side), but if anyone knows some more details please share (if you can).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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jayunited
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:02 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Seem all A380s might be gone along with 744 and most of A340 fleet

Lufthansa to Shed Biggest Planes in Deepening Fleet Shakeup
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK



I just read the article in Bloomberg, I'm glad I didn't start follow my first thought and start a thread on this topic.

This is sad news, I hope they can at the very least find a way to save their A380s. While I don't want to see the A340s or all the 744s leave the fleet this soon, it is a little more understandable because some of those frames are old.
 
KLAXWOLF
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Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:43 pm

Lufthansa still like all other Airlines, struggling with the Situation due Corona, is considering to remove the entire Airbus A380 from the Fleet. What are your thoughts?!
 
x1234
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Re: Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:49 pm

Its the same with the Air France decision. The A380 simply burns too much fuel and IS only profitable if you fill is >95% full. Qantas has said that 2x 789's on its LHR-PER route still burns less fuel than 1 A380. The future is massive twins and LH with its B777X and B789/A350/A330 will make it profitable.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:51 pm

Source?
 
Antarius
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Re: Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Source?


https://samchui.com/2020/09/11/lufthans ... 1uuJ2hKiUk

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... et-shakeup

744 and a388 are stated to be out. Some younger a346 may remain as well as the 748 (or to be specific, there is nothing stated about the 748 either way)
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Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:51 pm

If they retire both models and if demand starts to recover from next year, what will they use to fill the gap? Or will they consider bringing back at least the 744?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:00 pm

Blerg wrote:
If they retire both models and if demand starts to recover from next year, what will they use to fill the gap? Or will they consider bringing back at least the 744?


I think every economic model shows demand not coming back for years. By that time, they can keep aircraft and expand with the A350s and 787s they have on order. Alternatively, pick up used aircraft that may be available.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:02 pm

x1234 wrote:
Its the same with the Air France decision. The A380 simply burns too much fuel and IS only profitable if you fill is >95% full. Qantas has said that 2x 789's on its LHR-PER route still burns less fuel than 1 A380. The future is massive twins and LH with its B777X and B789/A350/A330 will make it profitable.


Yeah, pretty much everything you write here is between blatantly false und potentially unwillingly untrue.

The 380 burns too much fuel for what it could have been with a wing not restricted to 80m, but hardly is anything near 95% load factor required.
And it burns too much fuel per seat compared with modern twins not in absolute numbers, but if you factor risk of filling around 500 seats vs 250 in.

Not sure if the Qantas statement is literally true, but at least you got the part right, where you state the future is big twins.

By the way: LH was massively profitably with all the gas guzzling 340, 747 and 380. So no, big twins won’t make it profitable. But the relatively small size of „big“ twins will definitely help in the Post Corona world.
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:06 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Seem all A380s might be gone along with 744 and most of A340 fleet

Lufthansa to Shed Biggest Planes in Deepening Fleet Shakeup
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... f=CMQY7IGK

TFA says:

Deutsche Lufthansa AG plans to eliminate its biggest passenger jets as it deepens fleet cuts, creating a knock-on in additional job losses, people with knowledge of the proposals said.

Lufthansa is looking at retiring remaining Airbus SE A380 double-deckers, the bulk of smaller A340s, and all of its older Boeing Co. 747-400 jumbos, according to the people, who asked not to be named discussing a confidential matter. There would also be a cull of narrow-body planes that feed longer routes, they said.

Lots of sizzle but not much bacon, IMO.

Of course they are looking at it, isn't that obvious? Planning departments make plans, isn't that also obvious? Proposals remain proposals till they are accepted.

The fleet plans could be made public around the time the company’s supervisory board signs off on them, with the next meeting scheduled in about 10 days.

So we'll have a board meeting in 10 days, but they're not even willing to say that the plans will be signed off by then.

This feels like a trial balloon, a controlled leak of info to gauge reaction, rather than a statement of intent. Note I say this as someone who has predicted the demise of the A380 sooner rather than later. This report just suggests it's a proposal rather than a committed plan of action, but IMO it should be obvious that LH is considering killing off the A380, 744 and most of the A340s too.

I did find it interesting that some A340-600s may survive because LH doesn't want to take the financial hit all at once and they want to hedge their bets a bit. Presumably the younger ones still have a lot of book value unlike the older A340s and 744s so they're harder to write off. Presumably the A380s still have a lot of book value too, but it's more of a challenge to project that they may some day become profitable again.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tomcat
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:09 pm

They seem to keep the types that are offering the greatest volumetric cargo capacity which seems logical since the shortages of global cargo capacity is expected to last for a while due to the reduction of long-haul passenger demand.
 
Antarius
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
I did find it interesting that some A340-600s may survive because LH doesn't want to take the financial hit all at once and they want to hedge their bets a bit. Presumably the younger ones still have a lot of book value unlike the older A340s and 744s so they're harder to write off. Presumably the A380s still have a lot of book value too, but it's more of a challenge to project that they may some day become profitable again.


The a346s are also younger than the 744s. So LH may want to keep some capacity, but also keep the younger aircraft that require less maintenance.
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Antarius
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Re: Lufthansa considering to remove A380 from the Fleet

Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:35 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
The 380 burns too much fuel for what it could have been with a wing not restricted to 80m, but hardly is anything near 95% load factor required.
And it burns too much fuel per seat compared with modern twins not in absolute numbers, but if you factor risk of filling around 500 seats vs 250 in.


The core point still stands - its an aircraft that has a much higher break even point than the rest of their fleet. With less demand projected in the near future, filling a large plane with high yield passengers is unlikely and therefore the type is uneconomical compared to the twins and even some smaller quads in their fleet.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
mzlin
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Lots of sizzle but not much bacon, IMO.

Of course they are looking at it, isn't that obvious? Planning departments make plans, isn't that also obvious? Proposals remain proposals till they are accepted.

This feels like a trial balloon, a controlled leak of info to gauge reaction, rather than a statement of intent. Note I say this as someone who has predicted the demise of the A380 sooner rather than later. This report just suggests it's a proposal rather than a committed plan of action, but IMO it should be obvious that LH is considering killing off the A380, 744 and most of the A340s too.


I think your interpretative caution is unnecessary, Revelation. Bloomberg doesn't report these things unless they have solid evidence; in this case it's a controlled leak but not to gauge reaction; just to get people prepared so the event doesn't shock people and cause volatility to the stock price. Idea being to give the impression (true) that LH considers things deliberately, and there isn't any unexpected change in LH's market standing.

Bloomberg has broken other stories in aviation recently (I believe they were the first to break the story of the A380 shutdown, or the reengine not going forward, or Emirates not ordering more, can't remember which) and as far as I recall they are always correct.

I think we all agree the move makes sense:
A380 too big
744 too old
A340-600 are newer and more efficient than 744, so keep them for now
777x to replace A340-600
Any future growth on trunk routes can be taken care of by 777x

Interesting that in a period of 2 years (2021-2023) LH would have operated 4 types with capacities within 15% of each other (744, A340-600, 748, 777x)

Also LH mainline would have operated every widebody line produced in the last 30 years, except 777classic and A330neo (which I count separately from 777-8/9 and A330ceo)

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