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mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:21 am

dik909 wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread and I missed it, but: If airlines are so swiftly phasing out their 4-engine aircraft (A380, B747), then why is LH hanging onto their A340 fleet for so long ?

The A340-300 is LH's smallest long haul aircraft currently, rivaled in trip costs only by the A350-900, of which LH has only very limited numbers. So the A340 has remained (in small numbers) to maintain their worldwide network while minimizing losses. LH's and LX's A330 are all of the lower MTOW variants, which makes them usable for TATL flights but unsuitable for flights to eastern Asia. The A340-300 is slightly less efficient than the A330-300, but not much.

The reason why the 747 and A380 are being phased out/parked so quickly is their very large passenger capacity (for which there is no demand) and their comparatively small cargo capacity (for which there is significant demand). The 747-8 is the exception since it outperforms other aircraft in both cargo volume and weight, and also has the latest engine model.

The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359. If long haul demand remains as low as it is, we can expect more cancelled flights and heavier reliance on the A350. However, there are no plans to park the entire A343 fleet this year.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:03 pm

dik909 wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread and I missed it, but: If airlines are so swiftly phasing out their 4-engine aircraft (A380, B747), then why is LH hanging onto their A340 fleet for so long ?

What I'm further asking is: What are the chances that they'll pull their A340s by the end of this year ?

Thanks in advance.

I feel we need to separate A340-600 and A340-300, because they are being treated differently.

We know A340-600 is "removed from planning" so effectively retired ( ref: https://onemileatatime.com/lufthansa-re ... 600-fleet/ ). Various discussions on a.net focused on the cost of servicing their engines as a reason why these would be removed sooner rather than later.

We have info in #708 above ( viewtopic.php?p=22507831#p22491925 ) and follow on in #709 describing A340 current activity and future replacements.

It would seem the flying plans for this year are in place so A340-300 should survive this year and await eventual replacement by 787-9 and/or A350. Of course anything could change as it seems we are seeing an increase in the spread of the virus. Hopefully an anti-virus comes soon enough to not require too many more cut backs.

mxaxai wrote:
The A340-300 is LH's smallest long haul aircraft currently, rivaled in trip costs only by the A350-900, of which LH has only very limited numbers. So the A340 has remained (in small numbers) to maintain their worldwide network while minimizing losses. LH's and LX's A330 are all of the lower MTOW variants, which makes them usable for TATL flights but unsuitable for flights to eastern Asia. The A340-300 is slightly less efficient than the A330-300, but not much.

The reason why the 747 and A380 are being phased out/parked so quickly is their very large passenger capacity (for which there is no demand) and their comparatively small cargo capacity (for which there is significant demand). The 747-8 is the exception since it outperforms other aircraft in both cargo volume and weight, and also has the latest engine model.

The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359. If long haul demand remains as low as it is, we can expect more cancelled flights and heavier reliance on the A350. However, there are no plans to park the entire A343 fleet this year.

Edited to add that I did not see this post when I wrote the above, since this post fell on to the next page.

Thanks for the informative post, I agree with what you wrote.
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777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:52 am

Revelation wrote:
dik909 wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread and I missed it, but: If airlines are so swiftly phasing out their 4-engine aircraft (A380, B747), then why is LH hanging onto their A340 fleet for so long ?

What I'm further asking is: What are the chances that they'll pull their A340s by the end of this year ?

Thanks in advance.

I feel we need to separate A340-600 and A340-300, because they are being treated differently.

We know A340-600 is "removed from planning" so effectively retired ( ref: https://onemileatatime.com/lufthansa-re ... 600-fleet/ ). Various discussions on a.net focused on the cost of servicing their engines as a reason why these would be removed sooner rather than later.

We have info in #708 above ( viewtopic.php?p=22507831#p22491925 ) and follow on in #709 describing A340 current activity and future replacements.

It would seem the flying plans for this year are in place so A340-300 should survive this year and await eventual replacement by 787-9 and/or A350. Of course anything could change as it seems we are seeing an increase in the spread of the virus. Hopefully an anti-virus comes soon enough to not require too many more cut backs.

mxaxai wrote:
The A340-300 is LH's smallest long haul aircraft currently, rivaled in trip costs only by the A350-900, of which LH has only very limited numbers. So the A340 has remained (in small numbers) to maintain their worldwide network while minimizing losses. LH's and LX's A330 are all of the lower MTOW variants, which makes them usable for TATL flights but unsuitable for flights to eastern Asia. The A340-300 is slightly less efficient than the A330-300, but not much.

The reason why the 747 and A380 are being phased out/parked so quickly is their very large passenger capacity (for which there is no demand) and their comparatively small cargo capacity (for which there is significant demand). The 747-8 is the exception since it outperforms other aircraft in both cargo volume and weight, and also has the latest engine model.

The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359. If long haul demand remains as low as it is, we can expect more cancelled flights and heavier reliance on the A350. However, there are no plans to park the entire A343 fleet this year.

Edited to add that I did not see this post when I wrote the above, since this post fell on to the next page.

Thanks for the informative post, I agree with what you wrote.


Page 32 of LH’s Q3 results seem to suggest that the A340-300’s have been written off. And it’s in the long list of airplanes to be retired. According to LH on Twitter it won’t be flying the A343 during the winter schedule beyond December.

(This is paraphrased from pg 32 under “Changes in Estimayes” ) “The assumption is that five 747s, 17 A340s, 8 A380s......will be retired permanently”
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:16 am

777luver wrote:
8 A380s......will be retired permanently”

Just for clarification, are these 8 A380s the ones that were confirmed to be retired, or is this referring to the ones "removed from planning"?
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mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:57 pm

777luver wrote:

Page 32 of LH’s Q3 results seem to suggest that the A340-300’s have been written off. And it’s in the long list of airplanes to be retired. According to LH on Twitter it won’t be flying the A343 during the winter schedule beyond December.

(This is paraphrased from pg 32 under “Changes in Estimayes” ) “The assumption is that five 747s, 17 A340s, 8 A380s......will be retired permanently”

I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence yet. AFAIK they had already planned to withdraw 7-8 A380s previously, so some of these 8 A380 have to come from those. Similarly, part of the A340-600 fleet hadn't been officially retired yet, so I would guess that some of those 17 A340 come from that fleet. For the 747, the 5 aircraft appear to be those that were sent to storage in ENS, not the 3 that remain parked in HAM nor those in TEV and LDE.
 
musapapaya
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:21 pm

777luver wrote:
Revelation wrote:
dik909 wrote:
Sorry if this has already been addressed in this thread and I missed it, but: If airlines are so swiftly phasing out their 4-engine aircraft (A380, B747), then why is LH hanging onto their A340 fleet for so long ?

What I'm further asking is: What are the chances that they'll pull their A340s by the end of this year ?

Thanks in advance.

I feel we need to separate A340-600 and A340-300, because they are being treated differently.

We know A340-600 is "removed from planning" so effectively retired ( ref: https://onemileatatime.com/lufthansa-re ... 600-fleet/ ). Various discussions on a.net focused on the cost of servicing their engines as a reason why these would be removed sooner rather than later.

We have info in #708 above ( viewtopic.php?p=22507831#p22491925 ) and follow on in #709 describing A340 current activity and future replacements.

It would seem the flying plans for this year are in place so A340-300 should survive this year and await eventual replacement by 787-9 and/or A350. Of course anything could change as it seems we are seeing an increase in the spread of the virus. Hopefully an anti-virus comes soon enough to not require too many more cut backs.

mxaxai wrote:
The A340-300 is LH's smallest long haul aircraft currently, rivaled in trip costs only by the A350-900, of which LH has only very limited numbers. So the A340 has remained (in small numbers) to maintain their worldwide network while minimizing losses. LH's and LX's A330 are all of the lower MTOW variants, which makes them usable for TATL flights but unsuitable for flights to eastern Asia. The A340-300 is slightly less efficient than the A330-300, but not much.

The reason why the 747 and A380 are being phased out/parked so quickly is their very large passenger capacity (for which there is no demand) and their comparatively small cargo capacity (for which there is significant demand). The 747-8 is the exception since it outperforms other aircraft in both cargo volume and weight, and also has the latest engine model.

The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359. If long haul demand remains as low as it is, we can expect more cancelled flights and heavier reliance on the A350. However, there are no plans to park the entire A343 fleet this year.

Edited to add that I did not see this post when I wrote the above, since this post fell on to the next page.

Thanks for the informative post, I agree with what you wrote.


Page 32 of LH’s Q3 results seem to suggest that the A340-300’s have been written off. And it’s in the long list of airplanes to be retired. According to LH on Twitter it won’t be flying the A343 during the winter schedule beyond December.

(This is paraphrased from pg 32 under “Changes in Estimayes” ) “The assumption is that five 747s, 17 A340s, 8 A380s......will be retired permanently”


It looks like the LH796/797 for late November and early January respectively will be the last rotation on their A340-300. It is still scheduled as per 'my booking' under their app that these are still operated by the A340-300.
 
a2b7
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:29 pm

mxaxai wrote:
777luver wrote:

Page 32 of LH’s Q3 results seem to suggest that the A340-300’s have been written off. And it’s in the long list of airplanes to be retired. According to LH on Twitter it won’t be flying the A343 during the winter schedule beyond December.

(This is paraphrased from pg 32 under “Changes in Estimayes” ) “The assumption is that five 747s, 17 A340s, 8 A380s......will be retired permanently”

I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence yet. AFAIK they had already planned to withdraw 7-8 A380s previously, so some of these 8 A380 have to come from those. Similarly, part of the A340-600 fleet hadn't been officially retired yet, so I would guess that some of those 17 A340 come from that fleet. For the 747, the 5 aircraft appear to be those that were sent to storage in ENS, not the 3 that remain parked in HAM nor those in TEV and LDE.

As far as I understand, the number of aircraft that you quote from the report are cumulative for the entire year 2020. Note that the Q3 results' cover page says "January to September 2020"
This means that the 17 A340s mentioned is the A340-600 fleet. I don't expect any A340-300 to leave the fleet before the A350 deliveries resume in 2022 or the first B787 arrive.
Regarding the 747 to be retired, these are D-ABVP (is already at MHV), D-ABVO, D-ABVR, D-ABVS and D-AVVT according to https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfl ... ansa/fleet
Three of them went to ENS for storage, while the other two are stored at LDE.
 
777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:08 pm

a2b7 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
777luver wrote:

Page 32 of LH’s Q3 results seem to suggest that the A340-300’s have been written off. And it’s in the long list of airplanes to be retired. According to LH on Twitter it won’t be flying the A343 during the winter schedule beyond December.

(This is paraphrased from pg 32 under “Changes in Estimayes” ) “The assumption is that five 747s, 17 A340s, 8 A380s......will be retired permanently”

I'm not sure how to interpret this sentence yet. AFAIK they had already planned to withdraw 7-8 A380s previously, so some of these 8 A380 have to come from those. Similarly, part of the A340-600 fleet hadn't been officially retired yet, so I would guess that some of those 17 A340 come from that fleet. For the 747, the 5 aircraft appear to be those that were sent to storage in ENS, not the 3 that remain parked in HAM nor those in TEV and LDE.

As far as I understand, the number of aircraft that you quote from the report are cumulative for the entire year 2020. Note that the Q3 results' cover page says "January to September 2020"
This means that the 17 A340s mentioned is the A340-600 fleet. I don't expect any A340-300 to leave the fleet before the A350 deliveries resume in 2022 or the first B787 arrive.
Regarding the 747 to be retired, these are D-ABVP (is already at MHV), D-ABVO, D-ABVR, D-ABVS and D-AVVT according to https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfl ... ansa/fleet
Three of them went to ENS for storage, while the other two are stored at LDE.


I could’ve interpreted it wrong as I wasn’t really awake when I was reading up on the Q3 results but I see that you’re correct and I have a feeling you are bang on
 
787X30
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:51 am

mxaxai wrote:
The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359.

Bulk, as in 75/143 r/t pw most recently?

18 B74H
26 A343 opb 17-strong fleet
12 A350 (+19 MUC) opb fleet very limited to 17

...plus those tiny 65 of

65 A333 (+3 EW).

Bulk:

68/143 : 47%
26/143 : 18%

31/143 : 22%
18/143 : 13%

So, the bulk of 65/100 is on the classic A333/343. As in backbone.
 
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Polot
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:06 pm

787X30 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The bulk of LH's current network is served by the 747-8, A343 and A359.

Bulk, as in 75/143 r/t pw most recently?

18 B74H
26 A343 opb 17-strong fleet
12 A350 (+19 MUC) opb fleet very limited to 17

...plus those tiny 65 of

65 A333 (+3 EW).

Bulk:

68/143 : 47%
26/143 : 18%

31/143 : 22%
18/143 : 13%

So, the bulk of 65/100 is on the classic A333/343. As in backbone.

He was talking about the airline, not the group. LH the airline operates no where in the vicinity of 65 A333s.

Also LH currently only has 17 A350s total, not 31.
 
787X30
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:45 pm

Round trips per week, Polot. First line of my reply.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm

787X30 wrote:
Round trips per week, Polot. First line of my reply.

Too confusing.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:10 pm

787X30 wrote:
Bulk, as in 75/143 r/t pw most recently?

18 B74H
26 A343 opb 17-strong fleet
12 A350 (+19 MUC) opb fleet very limited to 17

...plus those tiny 65 of

65 A333 (+3 EW).

Bulk:

68/143 : 47%
26/143 : 18%

31/143 : 22%
18/143 : 13%

So, the bulk of 65/100 is on the classic A333/343. As in backbone.

Now compare ASM instead of RT numbers, and consider stage length.

The A333 is used only on shorter TATL routes and to north & central Africa, the Middle East and India. Several of these routes can just barely be called "long haul", e. g. KWI or LOS at 2,200nm and 2,600nm respectively.

South America, southern Africa, East & South-East Asia and many other, longer TATL routes are purely served by the other 3.

At a glance, the average stage length of the A343, A359 & 748 is about 40% larger than of the A333. Additionally, they can all carry more payload weight. I estimate that the A333 only makes up 25% of widebody available seat miles or available cargo tonne miles but if you have access to more accurate numbers, I'll happily accept them..
 
DALCE
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:03 am

OMG you are really overengineering just to compete who has the longest..... :D
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787X30
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:02 pm

mxaxai wrote:
The A333 is used only on shorter TATL routes ...

"Only", no dear, the 400 and 402 are on the 333 and that's all you need to know. That link is the backbone of the network, and the 333 and the M11 are the types of the day, even if it's just a box of mail to keep the country going.

Btw, when in a fleet thread you argue along the lines of TKT (a different metric, you'll agree?), just kindly say so and back it up. Not my job, tbh.

DALCE wrote:
OMG you are really overengineering just to compete who has the longest..... :D

He who hath the longest doeth not serve the bulk.

But it's a nice tactic: write something and then reteat to "will happily accept your numbers".

On a sidenote, it's nice to see the classics back to high-profile destis like SIN, NRT, SFO, JNB.

Remember the epos: the 343 can't do SIN/MUC? :lol:
 
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:59 am

787X30 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The A333 is used only on shorter TATL routes ...

"Only", no dear, the 400 and 402 are on the 333 and that's all you need to know. That link is the backbone of the network, and the 333 and the M11 are the types of the day, even if it's just a box of mail to keep the country going.


Not to mention one of the longest TATL rotations, 490/491 to SEA.
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787X30
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:07 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
787X30 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
The A333 is used only on shorter TATL routes ...

"Only", no dear, the 400 and 402 are on the 333 and that's all you need to know. That link is the backbone of the network, and the 333 and the M11 are the types of the day, even if it's just a box of mail to keep the country going.


Not to mention one of the longest TATL rotations, 490/491 to SEA.

Thank you. The most critical are the 440 and then 705, atm. BC and WA tend to be less of a headache due the calm winterly skies up north.
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:46 pm

Today D-ABVS woke up from storage at EHTW and stretched her wings for a short hop to EDDF for her final retirement flight to ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHlW4Iw3ds
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Sun Nov 29, 2020 5:01 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Today D-ABVS woke up from storage at EHTW and stretched her wings for a short hop to EDDF for her final retirement flight to ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHlW4Iw3ds


Ferry FRA-BOS November 30, BOS-MHV December 1. Times will likely be the same as D-ABVP was a month ago.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:40 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Today D-ABVS woke up from storage at EHTW and stretched her wings for a short hop to EDDF for her final retirement flight to ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHlW4Iw3ds


Ferry FRA-BOS November 30, BOS-MHV December 1. Times will likely be the same as D-ABVP was a month ago.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4


LH9924 FRA - BOS cancelled, reason unknown(?)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:57 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Today D-ABVS woke up from storage at EHTW and stretched her wings for a short hop to EDDF for her final retirement flight to ....?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vHlW4Iw3ds


Ferry FRA-BOS November 30, BOS-MHV December 1. Times will likely be the same as D-ABVP was a month ago.

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4


LH9924 FRA - BOS cancelled, reason unknown(?)

Heavy rain day in BOS today, maybe they just didn't want to deal with a chance of a diversion?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
66chargerfan
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Lufthansa 747-400 enroute to MHV [02DEC2020]

Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:24 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9922/26330152

if the 747-400 was going to be retired this would be an interesting day, yet Lufthansa hasn't let us know of this...

anyone else see this at all?
darrenelliott.proboards.com
 
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Re: Lufthansa 747-400 enroute to MHV [02DEC2020]

Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:12 pm

66chargerfan wrote:
https://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9922/26330152

if the 747-400 was going to be retired this would be an interesting day, yet Lufthansa hasn't let us know of this...

anyone else see this at all?


Seen it, there are a few comments about it in the 747-400 retirements/fleet exit thread.

This one is indeed for retirement, joining D-ABVP. I believe there are a few more going to MHV over the coming months.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
Blerg
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 03, 2020 5:29 am

I see they still have the B744 scheduled to operate FRA-SEA and YVR flights in 2021 though it could also be that their system was not updated (summer 21). Will be interesting to see if these two destinations are taken over by another aircraft in April.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:00 pm

It was discussed upthread a couple months ago, but any update on the future of the A340-300s? Was there an intended retirement date even before COVID?
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:21 pm

Please continue discussion in Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456007
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