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PA815
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OFFICIAL: UA Gains 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:05 am

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... enver-hub/
This is touched on in the general UA and DEN threads, but this news could merit its own discussion where more people will see it. With airlines working to gain as many new gates as possible in DEN, city council will vote on a proposal to designate 24 new gates to UA, taking them up to 90 and allowing for major expansion there. Additional plans call for a new United Club in the A Concourse.

Details are in the article, but with up to 550 flights planned this summer, these new gates could make Scott Kirby’s ambitions of 700 DEN flights a reality.

No word yet on how the remaining gates would be allocated.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:19 am

PA815 wrote:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-airlines-plans-more-gates-new-clubs-at-growing-denver-hub/
This is touched on in the general UA and DEN threads, but this news could merit its own discussion where more people will see it. With airlines working to gain as many new gates as possible in DEN, city council will vote on a proposal to designate 24 new gates to UA, taking them up to 90 and allowing for major expansion there. Additional plans call for a new United Club in the A Concourse.

Details are in the article, but with up to 550 flights planned this summer, these new gates could make Scott Kirby’s ambitions of 700 DEN flights a reality.

No word yet on how the remaining gates would be allocated.


WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
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n7371f
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:50 am

F9 has requested 6 to 8 gates.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:56 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-airlines-plans-more-gates-new-clubs-at-growing-denver-hub/
This is touched on in the general UA and DEN threads, but this news could merit its own discussion where more people will see it. With airlines working to gain as many new gates as possible in DEN, city council will vote on a proposal to designate 24 new gates to UA, taking them up to 90 and allowing for major expansion there. Additional plans call for a new United Club in the A Concourse.

Details are in the article, but with up to 550 flights planned this summer, these new gates could make Scott Kirby’s ambitions of 700 DEN flights a reality.

No word yet on how the remaining gates would be allocated.


WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.


they want a total of 90 Gates? Heck ! That's 3 normal Terminals!! if you run 5 banks a day? That's 450 flights per day not counting inbounds you take off the gate or outbound airplanes you drag to the gate between Banks!! That's a LOT of real estate!!
 
ericm2031
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:14 am

"United’s 24 additional gates would be located across Concourses A and B, said Rivas. They include 12 under construction and 11 existing gates on A, and one net additional gate on B.

Denver Airport is in the midst of a 39-gate expansion of its three concourses. In addition to the 12 planned for Concourse A, the airport is adding four gates to Concourse B and converting 11 regional aircraft parking positions to seven mainline gates, and adding 16 gates to Concourse C."

So they want all 12 new ones on A and want 11 existing in A too (from who? CUTE?)? And if they do indeed grant WN all 16 in C, nobody else will have access to new gates or be able to expand besides using existing gates? Seems a little odd...
 
PA815
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:12 pm

ctrabs0114 wrote:
WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.

I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:39 pm

PA815 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.

I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.
 
BooDog
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:53 pm

No way they all go to UA and WN. All NK and F9 have to do is file a complaint with DOJ, and they will get a few gates.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
bhxalex
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:02 pm

Slightly off topic but what is the US obsession/practice with gates being owned by airlines?
I do not understand the logic too it at all, surely it can’t be the most efficient way for operations or we’d see a similar situation globally?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:02 pm

Surprisingly, UA isn't building a premium lounge at DEN. I suppose just 3 intercontinental routes (Tokyo, London, Frankfurt) does not justify the expense of a Polaris lounge, but perhaps UA can get creative (they are showing an increasing view to being just that), and carve out a Polaris "pop" up or section within one of the United Clubs to cater to its long haul, international flying customers. Just a thought. I could also see UA adding more long hauls in the future, and not necessarily to *A hubs given the substantial build up. A seasonal CDG route isn't out of the realm of possibility, as is a seasonal route to another European destination.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:14 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.

I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.


I don’t see how the City Council can lock out F9/NK totally, but it seems like there’s a reasonable middle ground, which is likely 3 or 4 more gates on A for F9 and a couple on C for NK. That said, is there a physical/logistical reason that the City can’t build out what everyone wants?

On a separate note, I think if UA expands much more in A they are going to have to do something about the passenger experience for connecting passengers. I was talking with my cousin, who is an extremely loyal ORD-based 1K, about business travel over Christmas and was shocked to hear an unprovoked rant about almost misconnecting due to the amount of ground she had to cover from a high B gate to A. I hadn’t really stopped to think about it because, while I use DEN a lot, it’s all O&D or same-concourse connections, but the complaint sort of makes sense, especially because I think the MCT is still 45 minutes or an hour.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:15 pm

bhxalex wrote:
Slightly off topic but what is the US obsession/practice with gates being owned by airlines?
I do not understand the logic too it at all, surely it can’t be the most efficient way for operations or we’d see a similar situation globally?


Does it make much practical difference? I mean, BA doesn’t own gates at LHR T5, but what would change if they did?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:18 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Surprisingly, UA isn't building a premium lounge at DEN. I suppose just 3 intercontinental routes (Tokyo, London, Frankfurt) does not justify the expense of a Polaris lounge, but perhaps UA can get creative (they are showing an increasing view to being just that), and carve out a Polaris "pop" up or section within one of the United Clubs to cater to its long haul, international flying customers. Just a thought. I could also see UA adding more long hauls in the future, and not necessarily to *A hubs given the substantial build up. A seasonal CDG route isn't out of the realm of possibility, as is a seasonal route to another European destination.


Tin foil hat on......

I think UA will build a Polaris lounge. I just don’t think UA wants to tip its hand that they intend to add more INTL flights at DEN. It could also be an ace......give us more gates and we will fly to more INTL destinations.
 
HunterATL
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:39 pm

bhxalex wrote:
Slightly off topic but what is the US obsession/practice with gates being owned by airlines?
I do not understand the logic too it at all, surely it can’t be the most efficient way for operations or we’d see a similar situation globally?


It is a very efficient system with enormous advantages for airport owners/operators in the United States. This is by no means an exhaustive list of the benefits for airports and airlines, but this hits the general high points:

First, gates are not owned by airlines in the United States; they are leased. Every gate lease in the United States must contain a "use it or lose it" provision which entitles airports to take back gates and lease them to others if the lessee airline does not meet specific daily use requirements. This creates a huge incentive for airlines to maximize their daily use of their gates which in turn creates more revenue for the airport through more landing fees and passenger facility charges.

Second, airlines lessee have the obligation to maintain and repair the gates they operate such as replacing broken windows, replacing chairs in the gate hold, maintaining the jet bridges, etc. Airline lessee also have to install and maintain their own computers, printers, boarding pass readers, etc. Under a CUTE system, the airport authority has to provide these services.

Third, airline lessees have an incentive to invest in their leased gates/terminals to provide better services than the airport authority would likely do on its own at its own cost. A good example of this is the renovation of Delta's gates in ATL. Delta in replacing and increasing all of the windows, increasing the ceiling height, installing more power ports, replacing the flooring, etc. It is highly unlikely that the airport would have done this out of its own revenues. This also includes whole terminals such as the designing, financing, and constructing Delta's new terminal at LGA and its terminals at LAX, American's Terminal 8 at JFK, United's Terminal One at ORD, etc. You rarely see carriers at foreign airports directly undertaking such obligations.

Fourth, gate leases ensure that airports do not over-expand and build facilities that go unused but must still be maintained and paid for. This naturally improves the airport's finances for the benefit of all airlines through lower landing fees and passenger facility charges. There are several examples in the United States of airports which have more facilities than needed, mostly because of the rejection of leases during bankruptcy, such as PIT, STL, MEM, and CLE. Those unused facilities are costly to maintain and often sill have outstanding bonds in need of repayment. Because the facilities are not fully leased, airlines using those airports have to pay higher landing fees and passenger facility charges than they would otherwise pay if the gates were fully leased and utilized. Conversely, if an airline leases more space than it needs, the airport still receives its lease payments and does not need to increase charges.

Fifth, gate leases improve an airport authority's ability to obtain financing for new construction and renovations of facilities. When an airport can go to a bond underwriter or the market in general and demonstrate that it already has leases for new construction, it can generally sell its bonds/obtain financing at lower interest rates because of the guaranteed revenue stream. DEN's construction of domestic gates without leases in place is highly unusual in the United States.

Sixth, gate leases remove from the airport the obligation to oversee scheduling to ensure that there are gates available when flights arrive and are scheduled to depart. This is a huge undertaking by an airport, and airport authorities are happy not to have to do this for domestic flights. Gate leases create certainty for airlines that they can operate their schedule as they see fit in light of the facilities they are willing to lease. It is important to remember that virtually all airports outside of the United States use a slot system to regulate the number of flights and their arrival/departure time. In the United States, airports generally use gate leases as a means to regulate flights. Also it is important to note that the US system is often, but not always, used by foreign airports for their largest hub operators. For example, NH and JL each lease their own terminals at HND; QF leases its domestic terminal at SYD; AM leases its terminal at MEX, etc. CUTE systems for large hub operations are a nightmare to operate, are expensive for airports to oversee, and increase costs for hub airlines.

Seventh, gate leases are more efficient for airline staff. Gate agents generally remain at the same gate for the duration of their shift. Because they do not need to move between multiple gates, they can more efficiently provide services to passengers.

Obviously, CUTE systems have a role to play, principally at international terminals in the United States. But direct gate leases to airlines provide enormous levels of certainty for airports and relieve airports of many operating obligations. They also provide competitive advantages to airlines through facility improvements and operational reliability.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:26 pm

HunterATL wrote:
[Every gate lease in the United States must contain a "use it or lose it" provision which entitles airports to take back gates and lease them to others if the lessee airline does not meet specific daily use requirements.


What forces a gate lease to have 'use it or lose it' provisions? Of what form is the obligation, typically? XX flights per day per gate, at least XX% of the average gate utilization at the airport...
 
PA815
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:28 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

How does the airport decide who gets how many gates? Does the existing size of the airlines play into it so that they grow at the same proportion? Is it the potential of the new flights that would be added (i.e. an international route or flight to a currently unserved city would get priority)?

I’m sure there are some interesting negations going on behind-the-scenes.
 
bigb
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:39 pm

PA815 wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

How does the airport decide who gets how many gates? Does the existing size of the airlines play into it so that they grow at the same proportion? Is it the potential of the new flights that would be added (i.e. an international route or flight to a currently unserved city would get priority)?

I’m sure there are some interesting negations going on behind-the-scenes.


Whoever puts up the most money will get the gates 9.5 out of 10 times.
 
jhsusman
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:43 pm

As the city council has to vote on this proposal of 24 gates going to United, I think that they (United) will be forced to disclose what incremental routes (namely international) they plan to introduce in the coming years. Many of the A gates that United would take up can handle wide-bodies. I also believe that the city council may ask for United to not only open a Polaris lounge but also commit some money to modernizing the B concourse gates.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:07 am

For all this talk of a Polaris lounge in DEN, I'd say forget about it, at least for the foreseeable future. I seriously doubt UA would add enough international long haul flights to justify it. Where else could the realistically go that wouldn't pluck traffic away from the lucrative long haul routes out of ORD and SFO?

DEN has been and will continue to be a primarily domestic hub for UA, and it serves that role well. IMHO, It should be a 600-700 flight hub at some point. When Concourse D or a new side concourse is built, I could easily see UA taking all of A (minus international flights).
 
Buddys747
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:17 am

I know it was years ago when they were changing to ULCC, but didn’t F9 give up gates on A?
 
tphuang
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:28 am

so, let's say UA does hit 700 flights at DEN. Who does this hurt? Obvious one is WN at DEN and other midwest focus cities, since it takes a large chunk of DEN O&D and a lot of middle of the country connections.

DL's SLC hub seems like another obvious choice here given the geographic proximity.

Does this also hurt DL at MSP? I don't see any AA hubs being too affected by this.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:45 am

n7371f wrote:
F9 has requested 6 to 8 gates.


Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:28 am

Buddys747 wrote:
I know it was years ago when they were changing to ULCC, but didn’t F9 give up gates on A?


F9 used to have nearly every gate except for the international gates on A, and Delta and American were on C. As Southwest grew American moved to A in 08/09, and Delta moved to A around 2016 leaving F9 with only 8 gates.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:32 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
n7371f wrote:
F9 has requested 6 to 8 gates.


Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?


Exactly Frontier abandon Denver and now they want back?
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
n7371f wrote:
F9 has requested 6 to 8 gates.


Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?


While F9 was going through their restructuring they reduced their operations at DEN and started flying more point to point. In recent years they have been growing DEN again and hit 100 nonstop destinations this past year from DEN, but most of these flights operate only a few days a week. F9 has stated multiple times that they would like to increase the frequencies of their flights through DEN but have been struggling with only 8(now 9) gates. There are many times from 6am-midnight where there are multiple F9 aircraft waiting for gates currently, and F9 fleet size is expected to double in the next few years. While I have never seen a news story I have heard from multiple sources F9 would like to have 12-15 gates for their operation.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 am

DEN1895 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
n7371f wrote:
F9 has requested 6 to 8 gates.


Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?


While F9 was going through their restructuring they reduced their operations at DEN and started flying more point to point. In recent years they have been growing DEN again and hit 100 nonstop destinations this past year from DEN, but most of these flights operate only a few days a week. F9 has stated multiple times that they would like to increase the frequencies of their flights through DEN but have been struggling with only 8(now 9) gates. There are many times from 6am-midnight where there are multiple F9 aircraft waiting for gates currently, and F9 fleet size is expected to double in the next few years. While I have never seen a news story I have heard from multiple sources F9 would like to have 12-15 gates for their operation.


F9's poor decision making isn't UA, WN, or DEN's problem. Who's to say they won't pull down flights again?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:09 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?


While F9 was going through their restructuring they reduced their operations at DEN and started flying more point to point. In recent years they have been growing DEN again and hit 100 nonstop destinations this past year from DEN, but most of these flights operate only a few days a week. F9 has stated multiple times that they would like to increase the frequencies of their flights through DEN but have been struggling with only 8(now 9) gates. There are many times from 6am-midnight where there are multiple F9 aircraft waiting for gates currently, and F9 fleet size is expected to double in the next few years. While I have never seen a news story I have heard from multiple sources F9 would like to have 12-15 gates for their operation.


F9's poor decision making isn't UA, WN, or DEN's problem. Who's to say they won't pull down flights again?


Exactly Frontier is now famous for splashing dozens of new routes and launching few and continuing even fewer.
 
superjeff
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:12 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Why would they want them after cutting so many flights at DEN?


While F9 was going through their restructuring they reduced their operations at DEN and started flying more point to point. In recent years they have been growing DEN again and hit 100 nonstop destinations this past year from DEN, but most of these flights operate only a few days a week. F9 has stated multiple times that they would like to increase the frequencies of their flights through DEN but have been struggling with only 8(now 9) gates. There are many times from 6am-midnight where there are multiple F9 aircraft waiting for gates currently, and F9 fleet size is expected to double in the next few years. While I have never seen a news story I have heard from multiple sources F9 would like to have 12-15 gates for their operation.

F9's poor decision making isn't UA, WN, or DEN's problem. Who's to say they won't pull down flights again?[/quote

FWIW, Frontier was in bankruptcy, caused by a combination of the financial meltdown at the time and Southwest's reentry into DEN and their ramp up there, coupled Republic Airways situation and merger with Midwest Express. I'm personally no friend of ULLC's like what's Frontier has become, but I don't think you can blame Frontier for having cut back on DEN. Their action is probably a major reason they're still around
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

F9's poor decision making isn't UA, WN, or DEN's problem. Who's to say they won't pull down flights again?


That statement can be made about any airline, back in the early 2010s UA reduced their operations at the airport so much that both US Airways and Continental moved to B concourse, but now they want more gates too. What if we UA has more problems in a few years and needs to reduce their gate count? Should the airport say it is not their problem? If F9 wants to add flights to DEN they should have an equal opportunity to receive some gates with the expansions, no leases were signed before the new gates were constructed, so they were never being built for any specific airline.
 
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flyer1225
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:57 am

HunterATL wrote:
It is a very efficient system with enormous advantages for airport owners/operators in the United States. This is by no means an exhaustive list of the benefits for airports and airlines, but this hits the general high points:


Big thank you for this extremely detailed post - learned quite a bit from reading it.
6E/9W/AA/AF/AI/AS/B6/BA/DJ/DL/EK/FL/HA/IC/IT/JQ/LH/LX/OS/QF/S2/SG/UA/US/VS/VX/WN
 
GmoneyCO
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:26 am

BNAMealer wrote:
For all this talk of a Polaris lounge in DEN, I'd say forget about it, at least for the foreseeable future. I seriously doubt UA would add enough international long haul flights to justify it. Where else could the realistically go that wouldn't pluck traffic away from the lucrative long haul routes out of ORD and SFO?

DEN has been and will continue to be a primarily domestic hub for UA, and it serves that role well. IMHO, It should be a 600-700 flight hub at some point. When Concourse D or a new side concourse is built, I could easily see UA taking all of A (minus international flights).


I would be interested to learn how much of UA's long haul traffic out of ORD and SFO is O&D vs. connections. If a high percentage is connections, push the connecting passengers to DEN away from ORD and SFO which both face runway issues and congestion issues. Turn DEN into the "connection point" for the central & western US and IAD for the east. Solves a lot performance and cancellation issues by driving traffic away from EWR, ORD, and SFO.

As an airport, DEN's on-time performance is not best in class but is still ~5 points better than SFO and ORD.
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:07 am

Denver and Colorado are booming. It's crazy to see nonstop UA services from DEN to destinations that weren't even on the airline's route map 10 years ago - ECP, MMH, NAS, SRQ and STS spring to mind. I certainly never expected to see UA start nonstop services to places like GSP, NRT and SYR either! To be sure, it seems like a lot more may be possible from DEN than I ever could have imagined. I can't wait to see what UA does at DEN!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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intotheair
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:54 am

superjeff wrote:
FWIW, Frontier was in bankruptcy, caused by a combination of the financial meltdown at the time and Southwest's reentry into DEN and their ramp up there, coupled Republic Airways situation and merger with Midwest Express. I'm personally no friend of ULLC's like what's Frontier has become, but I don't think you can blame Frontier for having cut back on DEN. Their action is probably a major reason they're still around


Frontier gave up six of its gates in October 2015. By that time, Frontier had long exited bankruptcy, unshackled itself from Republic, and was rebuilding as an airline by the time they gave up those gates. It was a direct result of the strategical decision to go all-in on a decentralized ULCC model.

https://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/06/f ... f-6-gates/
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
superjeff
Posts: 1372
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:31 am

intotheair wrote:
superjeff wrote:
FWIW, Frontier was in bankruptcy, caused by a combination of the financial meltdown at the time and Southwest's reentry into DEN and their ramp up there, coupled Republic Airways situation and merger with Midwest Express. I'm personally no friend of ULLC's like what's Frontier has become, but I don't think you can blame Frontier for having cut back on DEN. Their action is probably a major reason they're still around


Frontier gave up six of its gates in October 2015. By that time, Frontier had long exited bankruptcy, unshackled itself from Republic, and was rebuilding as an airline by the time they gave up those gates. It was a direct result of the strategical decision to go all-in on a decentralized ULCC model.

https://www.denverpost.com/2015/10/06/f ... f-6-gates/


which was a result of the buyout of Frontier by Indigo/Franke, and which caused the change in direction (which ultimately saved the company). As much as I hate the ULCC's, I think absent the Indigo/Franke buyout they would likely not be around these days. Denver has never been able to handle three hubs (in the OLD days, Continental, Western, United, later on Continental, Frontier (1st), and United, and later Frontier (2nd), Southwest, and United. The market isn't big enough. I think that only Chicago ORD has been able to handle two major hubs (AA/UA), with WN down the road at MDW. Not going to happen at DEN, And of all the things to fault F9 at, this is not one of them. If they want more gates, they should be allowed to get them.
 
flying505
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:15 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:20 pm

Here’s my guess: UA gets all of the gates on the east side of A, plus 2 two more on the west side. That means they keep the regional barn they are already using, and then AA gets booted back to C. F9 gets ~4 new gates that AA would’ve used on A. The Admirals club space becomes the UA club. Then on C, AA gets some of the new gates, NK gets one or two, and so WN gets ~10.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8043
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:34 pm

superjeff wrote:
Denver has never been able to handle three hubs (in the OLD days, Continental, Western, United, later on Continental, Frontier (1st), and United, and later Frontier (2nd), Southwest, and United. The market isn't big enough. I think that only Chicago ORD has been able to handle two major hubs (AA/UA), with WN down the road at MDW. Not going to happen at DEN, And of all the things to fault F9 at, this is not one of them. If they want more gates, they should be allowed to get them.


DEN has grown a lot since the days of Western, and now sees meaningfully more O&D than a lot of other 2-hub carrier cities (SEA, PHX, IAH/HOU among them). It's also very well positioned as a connecting point, as represented by its O&D:total passenger counts. It's not NYC, LAX or CHI, but it's big. F9 just isn't the carrier with strength to be hub number 3. It's bringing a knife to UA's 500-flights-and-growing gun fight.
 
FourCHZ
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:22 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:48 pm

If United uses each gate on average 8 times a day then that would get them up to 720 flights a day.
 
Blockplus
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 pm

Denver needs more train capacity. That is by far my biggest complaint. Inter terminal needs are lacking
 
SWADawg
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:58 pm

flying505 wrote:
Here’s my guess: UA gets all of the gates on the east side of A, plus 2 two more on the west side. That means they keep the regional barn they are already using, and then AA gets booted back to C. F9 gets ~4 new gates that AA would’ve used on A. The Admirals club space becomes the UA club. Then on C, AA gets some of the new gates, NK gets one or two, and so WN gets ~10.

WN has already broken ground on a new maintenance hangar and has invested massively in the local Denver economy. They expect and will most likely be granted all 16 gates on C.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3624
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:59 pm

F9 is not showing their commitment to DEN like UA and WN:

July 2020 Departures (peak day):
UA 556 +54 YOY +10%
WN 249 +30 +13.7%
F9 77 -9 YOY -10.5%
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6169
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:09 pm

It would make more sense to add more domestic banks with the new gates. Domestic flying is much more profitable than international flying currently and that makes DEN even more attractive for that purpose.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:29 pm

tphuang wrote:
so, let's say UA does hit 700 flights at DEN. Who does this hurt? Obvious one is WN at DEN and other midwest focus cities, since it takes a large chunk of DEN O&D and a lot of middle of the country connections.

DL's SLC hub seems like another obvious choice here given the geographic proximity.

Does this also hurt DL at MSP? I don't see any AA hubs being too affected by this.

I see this hurting AA hubs in two ways:
1. DEN growth has the ability to take away east-west traffic that would otherwise go via DFW (PHX to a lesser extent) and also some of that unique west texas/mtn west traffic that IAH isn't particularly well-suited to flow but DFW does well with
2. More importantly, as DEN's flow traffic grows, it lessens the need for ORD to be the primary United east-west flow hub and allows them to focus more on very profitable ORD O&D Traffic, something historically AA has had more of in Chicago (but not recently last I checked). https://visualapproach.io/the-great-oha ... t-of-2019/

Completely anecdotally, but it seems more noticeable for me and friends in Chicago who seem to be flying United more, particularly after the rough AA operational mess at ORD this summer...
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:47 pm

Blockplus wrote:
Denver needs more train capacity. That is by far my biggest complaint. Inter terminal needs are lacking


Thats the least of DEN's concern and really not even on the same scale as the other items.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2174
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:07 pm

They are in the progress of doing a refurbishment of the train system, including new signaling, and new vehicles to replace about half of the original fleet of train cars. The new overhaul of the main terminal should make it more efficient to flow in and out of the train area. Anything more significant will probably need to wait until Terminal D eventually gets built.

As a worst case scenario, the new main terminal overhaul moves the bridge into airside, so they could also redirect more A concourse traffic to the bridge to improve flow.

In other news, I am hearing that EK is talking to the city again about a non-stop, but with a 777, not 380.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:27 pm

airfrnt wrote:
They are in the progress of doing a refurbishment of the train system, including new signaling, and new vehicles to replace about half of the original fleet of train cars. The new overhaul of the main terminal should make it more efficient to flow in and out of the train area. Anything more significant will probably need to wait until Terminal D eventually gets built.

As a worst case scenario, the new main terminal overhaul moves the bridge into airside, so they could also redirect more A concourse traffic to the bridge to improve flow.

In other news, I am hearing that EK is talking to the city again about a non-stop, but with a 777, not 380.



That’s going to be WAY weight restricted unless they leave at midnight.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 813
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:02 pm

How about this.

Build Concourse D and move everyone other than UA/WN there. Then UA can have all of A/B, WN all of C and everyone else in D.

F9 needs to commit to improving frequency before being awarded new gates.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 813
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:08 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
They are in the progress of doing a refurbishment of the train system, including new signaling, and new vehicles to replace about half of the original fleet of train cars. The new overhaul of the main terminal should make it more efficient to flow in and out of the train area. Anything more significant will probably need to wait until Terminal D eventually gets built.

As a worst case scenario, the new main terminal overhaul moves the bridge into airside, so they could also redirect more A concourse traffic to the bridge to improve flow.

In other news, I am hearing that EK is talking to the city again about a non-stop, but with a 777, not 380.



That’s going to be WAY weight restricted unless they leave at midnight.


I’d be shocked if EK came to DEN. TK would make more sense given the massive feed on both ends.
 
N649DL
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:14 pm

Blockplus wrote:
Denver needs more train capacity. That is by far my biggest complaint. Inter terminal needs are lacking


That's Denver under planning for growth in general. Lack of width in corridors, escalators, bathrooms, etc. The airport is super huge why does everything else just seem way to narrow? (with the exception of the Jeppessen bridge to Terminal A). Under planning for growth was a major reason why I left DEN in general, BTW. DIA didn't help.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:08 pm

Blockplus wrote:
Denver needs more train capacity. That is by far my biggest complaint. Inter terminal needs are lacking


Starting toward the end of this year, the airport will be receiving additional train cars allowing them to run the trains more frequently. This will equal a roughly 30% increase in max capacity. In the long term future the trains can be extended to 6 cars max.
 
303dk
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:26 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:09 am

BNAMealer wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
airfrnt wrote:
They are in the progress of doing a refurbishment of the train system, including new signaling, and new vehicles to replace about half of the original fleet of train cars. The new overhaul of the main terminal should make it more efficient to flow in and out of the train area. Anything more significant will probably need to wait until Terminal D eventually gets built.

As a worst case scenario, the new main terminal overhaul moves the bridge into airside, so they could also redirect more A concourse traffic to the bridge to improve flow.

In other news, I am hearing that EK is talking to the city again about a non-stop, but with a 777, not 380.



That’s going to be WAY weight restricted unless they leave at midnight.


I’d be shocked if EK came to DEN. TK would make more sense given the massive feed on both ends.

LH and UA wouldn’t be excited for TK. Why share the money?

I also can’t see AA moving off the A concourse since BA shares the admirals club.

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