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blockski
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:55 am

ATL and DEN use the same platform for their train systems, however there are some key differences.

ATL has more cars in their fleet and this can run trains more frequently, and at maximum length.

ATL also has the redundant pedestrian tunnels that take some pressure off the train for passengers who want to stretch their legs or have some time. They can do this also because the ATL concourses are much closer together. The ATL train system is only a little bit longer than the DEN system, yet serves twice the number of stations.
 
quickmover
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:59 am

Why couldn’t DEN add more trains and increase frequency? I’ve been on the Atlanta train before and you need board quickly. The doors don’t stay open that long and that’s not a bad thing
 
N649DL
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:04 am

blockski wrote:
ATL and DEN use the same platform for their train systems, however there are some key differences.

ATL has more cars in their fleet and this can run trains more frequently, and at maximum length.

ATL also has the redundant pedestrian tunnels that take some pressure off the train for passengers who want to stretch their legs or have some time. They can do this also because the ATL concourses are much closer together. The ATL train system is only a little bit longer than the DEN system, yet serves twice the number of stations.


In term of concourse, ATL is like 3x the gate size of DEN. Plus at ATL you can easily walk between terminals underground, good luck doing that at DEN.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1888
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:14 am

HunterATL wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
jhsusman wrote:
It sounds like the 39 gates are phase 1 of a capacity expansion and we should hear more about phase 2 which may include a new concourse soon.


How do you know?


The DEN CEO stated such today to a city council committee.

Kim Day, CEO of Denver airport, told the City Council committee Wednesday that all of the new gates are already leased and the airport has plans to begin a second phase of gate expansion in the “coming weeks.”


https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/


Interesting. My guess is the second phase of expansion might be a full buildout of the west end of Concourse C. By my count, that would add about 12 more gates, and that might be enough to accommodate almost everyone. WN could get the 16 gates in C-East that are under construction, and 12 more gates on C-West would probably be enough to cover what F9 and DL are giving up for UA in A. (Or if F9 wants to stay entirely in A, they could move AA back to C or put NK there).

The only issue is that even if they were to announce a C-West expansion and start construction on that tomorrow, it would at least be another 18-24 months for it to be complete.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
MSPNWA
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:12 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

The train system can't handle a Concourse D.


How so? They could expand capacity if need be.


The train pretty much runs at capacity through the heavy banks. There aren't many options to significantly increase train capacity.


They're planning to add train cars to the system starting in 2020 to add either more trains or more capacity per train. Last I read, there should be about 25% more cars when it's complete. That will help.

HunterATL wrote:
Atlanta has 7 concourses. The Atlanta train network was designed specifically around passengers changing concourses for connections from the very beginning. The original DEN design did not foresee passengers changing concourses except for international connections in A. The train traffic was pretty much just to and from the landside building. Now, the trains must handle passengers moving between concourses for connections.

I suspect, however, that the biggest problem is that United uses a heavily banked operation which means that the trains are packed with passengers when an arrival bank lands but are not very busy between a departure bank and the next arrival. My understanding is that DEN's problem is the large number of people who need to transit the train system in a very short amount of time.

In Atlanta, Delta does not have a banked operation so use the trains is spread out constantly throughout the day without any peaks and valleys.


As it's operated today, very few passengers at DEN are changing concourses for a connection, and those are essentially limited to between concourses A and B. DEN was planned to be a majority connecting airport. Instead it's evolved into a majority O&D airport, requiring more train rides per passenger. The DEN trains can be packed, but so are other airport trains--ATL immediately coming to mind. They're not alone in that area of congestion.

Only UA's operations are banked, just a portion of the overall traffic, and a banked structure is built for connections that largely won't be using the trains. I don't think that alone is creating large peaks and valleys in the train usage. I can see some small ones.

N649DL wrote:
In term of concourse, ATL is like 3x the gate size of DEN. Plus at ATL you can easily walk between terminals underground, good luck doing that at DEN.


What do you mean by "3x the gate size"?

I'll gladly trade the option of an "easy" underground walk (which wouldn't be so "easy" at DEN with its longer distances between concourses) so planes above ground can quickly get to and from their gate. The net positive is massive. And let's not kid ourselves, the ATL tunnels aren't a big relief valve for the train, nor are they as practical for an airport that doesn't require many concourse transfers like DEN. If you're starting your journey, or especially ending one, are you really wanting to walk all the way to the plane or the terminal? Rarely. As a relief valve, we have to be talking a percent or two at most at ATL. The trains carry almost everyone. Are the tunnels nice to have (aside from the rare times mechanical problems stop the trains)? Sometimes. I've used them when I have extra time. But it certainly doesn't turn a bad airport into a great one, nor turn a great airport into a bad one.
 
ual4life
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:23 am

Small correction— people are making connections between A and B, C and B, A and C, United uses C38 consistently every day!
NNVII
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:54 pm

ual4life wrote:
Small correction— people are making connections between A and B, C and B, A and C, United uses C38 consistently every day!


To be fair, A - C would be pretty rare, although I did it this week as my daughter was flying out on Frontier and I was flying Southwest.

I find that the train is most crowded between the terminal and A. I wish they would have Pre-Check on the A pedestrian bridge and promoted the bridge security line more, that would ease pressure on both the south and north security areas as well as the train.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:13 pm

intotheair wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

How do you know?


The DEN CEO stated such today to a city council committee.

Kim Day, CEO of Denver airport, told the City Council committee Wednesday that all of the new gates are already leased and the airport has plans to begin a second phase of gate expansion in the “coming weeks.”


https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/


Interesting. My guess is the second phase of expansion might be a full buildout of the west end of Concourse C. By my count, that would add about 12 more gates, and that might be enough to accommodate almost everyone. WN could get the 16 gates in C-East that are under construction, and 12 more gates on C-West would probably be enough to cover what F9 and DL are giving up for UA in A. (Or if F9 wants to stay entirely in A, they could move AA back to C or put NK there).

The only issue is that even if they were to announce a C-West expansion and start construction on that tomorrow, it would at least be another 18-24 months for it to be complete.


How could they add another 12 gates onto the end of C? I count 4-5 maybe, as going to 12 would eat into the RON space there. I could see 12 being added to the east end of A though.

Indeed, Kim Day told the city council about another gate expansion in the coming weeks. My guess is it will include the final build outs of both A and C as well as plans for wherever the next concourse will go.
 
blockski
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:19 pm

quickmover wrote:
Why couldn’t DEN add more trains and increase frequency? I’ve been on the Atlanta train before and you need board quickly. The doors don’t stay open that long and that’s not a bad thing


They are adding more train cars. However, there are still potential capacity issues.

One is the nature of the users - if they're moving between concourses, then some passengers get on and off at each station. In ATL, with lots of connecting traffic, perhaps someone goes from C to A; that frees up space for someone going from A to T. But if they're mostly O&D passengers, then you get a completely full train, adding passengers at C, then B, then A before you get to the terminal - with the peak load between A and T.

The other issue is system design - it's not clear to me what the design headway is for the DEN train system; the ATL system can run every 2 minutes or less, but that capacity is dictated by the signal system, the spacing of stations, and the terminal capacity. ATL is adding terminal capacity with tail tracks at the T station, both to improve passenger throughput there and to provide more storage capacity:

https://www.ajc.com/blog/airport/hartsf ... L5Zm67R1J/

Denver did something similar by adding a crossover track before the terminal, allowing trains to terminate there on either track - this adds some capacity, but not as much as tail tracks would.

Likewise, if you want to add cars, you need to have room to store and maintain them. I'm not sure what DEN's constraints are there either in terms of cost or if they built themselves into a corner with tail tracks and terminal capacity.
 
N649DL
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:29 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

How so? They could expand capacity if need be.


The train pretty much runs at capacity through the heavy banks. There aren't many options to significantly increase train capacity.


They're planning to add train cars to the system starting in 2020 to add either more trains or more capacity per train. Last I read, there should be about 25% more cars when it's complete. That will help.

HunterATL wrote:
Atlanta has 7 concourses. The Atlanta train network was designed specifically around passengers changing concourses for connections from the very beginning. The original DEN design did not foresee passengers changing concourses except for international connections in A. The train traffic was pretty much just to and from the landside building. Now, the trains must handle passengers moving between concourses for connections.

I suspect, however, that the biggest problem is that United uses a heavily banked operation which means that the trains are packed with passengers when an arrival bank lands but are not very busy between a departure bank and the next arrival. My understanding is that DEN's problem is the large number of people who need to transit the train system in a very short amount of time.

In Atlanta, Delta does not have a banked operation so use the trains is spread out constantly throughout the day without any peaks and valleys.


As it's operated today, very few passengers at DEN are changing concourses for a connection, and those are essentially limited to between concourses A and B. DEN was planned to be a majority connecting airport. Instead it's evolved into a majority O&D airport, requiring more train rides per passenger. The DEN trains can be packed, but so are other airport trains--ATL immediately coming to mind. They're not alone in that area of congestion.

Only UA's operations are banked, just a portion of the overall traffic, and a banked structure is built for connections that largely won't be using the trains. I don't think that alone is creating large peaks and valleys in the train usage. I can see some small ones.

N649DL wrote:
In term of concourse, ATL is like 3x the gate size of DEN. Plus at ATL you can easily walk between terminals underground, good luck doing that at DEN.


What do you mean by "3x the gate size"?

I'll gladly trade the option of an "easy" underground walk (which wouldn't be so "easy" at DEN with its longer distances between concourses) so planes above ground can quickly get to and from their gate. The net positive is massive. And let's not kid ourselves, the ATL tunnels aren't a big relief valve for the train, nor are they as practical for an airport that doesn't require many concourse transfers like DEN. If you're starting your journey, or especially ending one, are you really wanting to walk all the way to the plane or the terminal? Rarely. As a relief valve, we have to be talking a percent or two at most at ATL. The trains carry almost everyone. Are the tunnels nice to have (aside from the rare times mechanical problems stop the trains)? Sometimes. I've used them when I have extra time. But it certainly doesn't turn a bad airport into a great one, nor turn a great airport into a bad one.


What I meant is that ATL has what 7 concourses and DEN has 3? Perhaps DEN's are wider, but I think DEN dropped the call when they didn't consider an underground tunnel. Especially considering the issues they have with the train system and snow.

I actually like ATL a lot. DEN is a PITA by comparison. Lot's of weird quirks and it already seems pretty dated.
 
blockski
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:37 pm

N649DL wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

The train pretty much runs at capacity through the heavy banks. There aren't many options to significantly increase train capacity.


They're planning to add train cars to the system starting in 2020 to add either more trains or more capacity per train. Last I read, there should be about 25% more cars when it's complete. That will help.

HunterATL wrote:
Atlanta has 7 concourses. The Atlanta train network was designed specifically around passengers changing concourses for connections from the very beginning. The original DEN design did not foresee passengers changing concourses except for international connections in A. The train traffic was pretty much just to and from the landside building. Now, the trains must handle passengers moving between concourses for connections.

I suspect, however, that the biggest problem is that United uses a heavily banked operation which means that the trains are packed with passengers when an arrival bank lands but are not very busy between a departure bank and the next arrival. My understanding is that DEN's problem is the large number of people who need to transit the train system in a very short amount of time.

In Atlanta, Delta does not have a banked operation so use the trains is spread out constantly throughout the day without any peaks and valleys.


As it's operated today, very few passengers at DEN are changing concourses for a connection, and those are essentially limited to between concourses A and B. DEN was planned to be a majority connecting airport. Instead it's evolved into a majority O&D airport, requiring more train rides per passenger. The DEN trains can be packed, but so are other airport trains--ATL immediately coming to mind. They're not alone in that area of congestion.

Only UA's operations are banked, just a portion of the overall traffic, and a banked structure is built for connections that largely won't be using the trains. I don't think that alone is creating large peaks and valleys in the train usage. I can see some small ones.

N649DL wrote:
In term of concourse, ATL is like 3x the gate size of DEN. Plus at ATL you can easily walk between terminals underground, good luck doing that at DEN.


What do you mean by "3x the gate size"?

I'll gladly trade the option of an "easy" underground walk (which wouldn't be so "easy" at DEN with its longer distances between concourses) so planes above ground can quickly get to and from their gate. The net positive is massive. And let's not kid ourselves, the ATL tunnels aren't a big relief valve for the train, nor are they as practical for an airport that doesn't require many concourse transfers like DEN. If you're starting your journey, or especially ending one, are you really wanting to walk all the way to the plane or the terminal? Rarely. As a relief valve, we have to be talking a percent or two at most at ATL. The trains carry almost everyone. Are the tunnels nice to have (aside from the rare times mechanical problems stop the trains)? Sometimes. I've used them when I have extra time. But it certainly doesn't turn a bad airport into a great one, nor turn a great airport into a bad one.


What I meant is that ATL has what 7 concourses and DEN has 3? Perhaps DEN's are wider, but I think DEN dropped the call when they didn't consider an underground tunnel. Especially considering the issues they have with the train system and snow.

I actually like ATL a lot. DEN is a PITA by comparison. Lot's of weird quirks and it already seems pretty dated.


ATL has more gates, but DEN's concourses can be much larger. A and C at DEN are just as long as anything at ATL (with similar numbers of gates) but DEN's concourse B is nearly 4000 feet long and has 70 gates - most at ATL are barely 2300 feet long, and the average satellite at ATL has ~32 gates.

This is another factor for the train capacity issue - it helps if UA has a lot of connections within B that never need to get on the train, but it also means that they've got 2x as many potential O&D passengers funneling into just one train station for the B concourse as you'll find on any given concourse at ATL.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:

The math for WN doesn't add up. I'll stand by for the next announcement.

Lightsaber


Kim Day seems to be virtually guaranteeing that WN is going to get their 16 gates:

“All of the carriers that are growing are going to get the gates they wish,” said Day when asked by committee members about other airlines. She added that the United agreement did not “preclude” other requests without providing additional details.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/
 
mkorpal333
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:07 pm

The idea of east/west concourses surrounding the main terminal is growing on me. I'm not sure how they will handle replacing the economy lots. Further levels on the parking structures could help I suppose. Although the ideal solution would be for RTD's train to handle that capacity, but that has been a huge mess.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:08 pm

Day may be right that "eventually" carriers will get the gates they want, but it seems quite clear the first gates that are becoming available, priority will be to UA.
 
Emperortim21
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Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:49 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:27 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
ual4life wrote:
Small correction— people are making connections between A and B, C and B, A and C, United uses C38 consistently every day!


To be fair, A - C would be pretty rare, although I did it this week as my daughter was flying out on Frontier and I was flying Southwest.

I find that the train is most crowded between the terminal and A. I wish they would have Pre-Check on the A pedestrian bridge and promoted the bridge security line more, that would ease pressure on both the south and north security areas as well as the train.




I had a United connection in September that was A to C. As someone who lived in the Denver area for quite a while, flying United and not even touching the B concourse just felt weird, and I didn't get to enjoy a United Club because of it. Just didnt make sense to get on at A, off at B, walk to either Club, walk back to the trail, and then go to C, in the 1.5hrs I had.
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:30 pm

blockski wrote:
N649DL wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

They're planning to add train cars to the system starting in 2020 to add either more trains or more capacity per train. Last I read, there should be about 25% more cars when it's complete. That will help.



As it's operated today, very few passengers at DEN are changing concourses for a connection, and those are essentially limited to between concourses A and B. DEN was planned to be a majority connecting airport. Instead it's evolved into a majority O&D airport, requiring more train rides per passenger. The DEN trains can be packed, but so are other airport trains--ATL immediately coming to mind. They're not alone in that area of congestion.

Only UA's operations are banked, just a portion of the overall traffic, and a banked structure is built for connections that largely won't be using the trains. I don't think that alone is creating large peaks and valleys in the train usage. I can see some small ones.



What do you mean by "3x the gate size"?

I'll gladly trade the option of an "easy" underground walk (which wouldn't be so "easy" at DEN with its longer distances between concourses) so planes above ground can quickly get to and from their gate. The net positive is massive. And let's not kid ourselves, the ATL tunnels aren't a big relief valve for the train, nor are they as practical for an airport that doesn't require many concourse transfers like DEN. If you're starting your journey, or especially ending one, are you really wanting to walk all the way to the plane or the terminal? Rarely. As a relief valve, we have to be talking a percent or two at most at ATL. The trains carry almost everyone. Are the tunnels nice to have (aside from the rare times mechanical problems stop the trains)? Sometimes. I've used them when I have extra time. But it certainly doesn't turn a bad airport into a great one, nor turn a great airport into a bad one.


What I meant is that ATL has what 7 concourses and DEN has 3? Perhaps DEN's are wider, but I think DEN dropped the call when they didn't consider an underground tunnel. Especially considering the issues they have with the train system and snow.

I actually like ATL a lot. DEN is a PITA by comparison. Lot's of weird quirks and it already seems pretty dated.


ATL has more gates, but DEN's concourses can be much larger. A and C at DEN are just as long as anything at ATL (with similar numbers of gates) but DEN's concourse B is nearly 4000 feet long and has 70 gates - most at ATL are barely 2300 feet long, and the average satellite at ATL has ~32 gates.

This is another factor for the train capacity issue - it helps if UA has a lot of connections within B that never need to get on the train, but it also means that they've got 2x as many potential O&D passengers funneling into just one train station for the B concourse as you'll find on any given concourse at ATL.


ATL currently has about 192 gates, before the expansion DEN has 136 aircraft loading positions (including ground load), after the expansion DEN will have 165 loading positions. If A and C were fully built out, DEN would probably have 180-190 gates on only 3 concourses compare to the 7 at ATL.

In regards to the train, currently the airport operates 6 sets of trains during peak times with head ways of 120 seconds, after the additional cars are added the the oldest train cars will be replaced and two additional sets will be added to the system. Each additional train reduces the head way by 12-15 seconds, so with all 8 trains running the trains will arrive about every 90 seconds. If additional capacity is needed after the additional train sets are added, the train can be extended to 5 or 6 cars.
 
jplatts
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:43 pm

Constructing underground walkways between concourses A and B at DEN might make sense since
(a) the walk from the western end of concourse A to the western end of concourse B via an underground walkway is approximately the same distance as the walk from the train to the western end of concourse B,
(b) getting to the western end of concourse A from the western of concourse B would be quicker via underground walkway on the west end of the concourses than walking from the western end of one concourse to the train, than riding the train, and then walking back to the western end of the other concourse,
(c) an underground walkway on the west side would provide an alternative to get to and from and concourse B in the event that there is an issue with the train,
and
(d) some of the connecting passengers who have to go between concourse A and concourse B would not need to take the train if an underground walkway connecting concourse A and concourse B is added, freeing up room on the train for O&D passengers or passengers going to or from concourse C.
 
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ADent
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:07 am

HunterATL wrote:
The committee meeting is over, and the committee approved the proposed amendment.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/


The United lease amendment goes to the full city council 21JAN2020.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/01/09/ ... nsion-dia/
 
BNAMealer
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Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:54 pm

ADent wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
The committee meeting is over, and the committee approved the proposed amendment.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/


The United lease amendment goes to the full city council 21JAN2020.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/01/09/ ... nsion-dia/


Is this only covering UA or will the other lease agreements be approved at that time as well?
 
diatraveler
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:16 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:25 am

Only United's at this meeting.
 
HunterATL
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:29 am

BNAMealer wrote:
ADent wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
The committee meeting is over, and the committee approved the proposed amendment.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/denver-co ... b-by-2025/


The United lease amendment goes to the full city council 21JAN2020.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/01/09/ ... nsion-dia/


Is this only covering UA or will the other lease agreements be approved at that time as well?


There are no other lease amendments that have been negotiated and finalized.
 
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ADent
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:57 pm

Approved
https://denverite.com/2020/01/21/united ... re-places/

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/01/21/c ... r-airport/


The first article says United will have 90 gates and plans for 700 flights.

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.
 
mcg
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:31 pm

I find it interesting that the Concourse B project only results in one net additional gate. The A gates are the new gates on the west side, correct? Not the RJ parking positions on the east side.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:31 pm

ADent wrote:
Approved
https://denverite.com/2020/01/21/united ... re-places/

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/01/21/c ... r-airport/


The first article says United will have 90 gates and plans for 700 flights.

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.

Approved unanimously.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:40 pm

ADent wrote:

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.


I'm not familiar with the DEN gate allotments. Who is using the 11 existing gates on A that UA is slated to get?
 
mkorpal333
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:30 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:58 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
ADent wrote:

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.


I'm not familiar with the DEN gate allotments. Who is using the 11 existing gates on A that UA is slated to get?


There are currently 11 common use gates on A. It could be all of them, or a combo of some plus Delta or American moving to C.
 
diatraveler
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:16 am

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:01 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
ADent wrote:

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.


I'm not familiar with the DEN gate allotments. Who is using the 11 existing gates on A that UA is slated to get?


They will be taking over the following gates:
All of Delta's: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31
Following Frontier Gates: A32, A34, A36, A38, A40
 
SWADawg
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:04 pm

diatraveler wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:
ADent wrote:

The second says United adds 24 gates: 12 new on A, 11 existing on A, 1 new on B.


I'm not familiar with the DEN gate allotments. Who is using the 11 existing gates on A that UA is slated to get?


They will be taking over the following gates:
All of Delta's: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31
Following Frontier Gates: A32, A34, A36, A38, A40

Do we know where these two Airlines will be moving yet?
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:12 pm

what gates they may gain? is impressive, however? That's because Denver Has the capacity to Build more gates. other than Chicago O'Hare? Which airports are expanding to that level? Not many. JFK will have to damn near Be Bombed out to expand their terminals to the extent DEN and ORD are. MCI OKC and SLC look like they have room though not the Hub airline to service,As more and more flights come into the major Gateway DFW and IAH will be the next real big deals as south American and south Asia Airlines increase service to the USA. Hopefully HKG will solve they problems and get on the Good Foot!
 
diatraveler
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:14 pm

SWADawg wrote:
diatraveler wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:

I'm not familiar with the DEN gate allotments. Who is using the 11 existing gates on A that UA is slated to get?


They will be taking over the following gates:
All of Delta's: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31
Following Frontier Gates: A32, A34, A36, A38, A40

Do we know where these two Airlines will be moving yet?


That is the big question. When DIA CEO Kim Day addressed the City Council during the hearing for this amendment, she said that there would be another gate expansion announcement in the coming months. My guess is an eastern expansion of Concourse A to accommodate Frontier, Delta and anyone else wanting more gates. This would allow Delta to keep their Sky Club location on A.
 
PA815
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:21 pm

https://crankyflier.com/2020/01/13/stra ... in-denver/

Brett Snyder’s take on it, reflecting the lack of clarity on how many new gates DEN will end up with and where all airlines will end up moving.
 
mkorpal333
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:28 pm

diatraveler wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
diatraveler wrote:

They will be taking over the following gates:
All of Delta's: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31
Following Frontier Gates: A32, A34, A36, A38, A40

Do we know where these two Airlines will be moving yet?


That is the big question. When DIA CEO Kim Day addressed the City Council during the hearing for this amendment, she said that there would be another gate expansion announcement in the coming months. My guess is an eastern expansion of Concourse A to accommodate Frontier, Delta and anyone else wanting more gates. This would allow Delta to keep their Sky Club location on A.


Even if they broke ground tomorrow, it would still be a year behind the other expansions. Lots of movement will happen in the meantime.

*edit. A thought I had a while ago. I know the US is pretty anti remote gate, but what about using the parking area north of C for the time being. It could be a quick and easy way to get everyone the gates they want.
 
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intotheair
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:50 pm

mkorpal333 wrote:
Even if they broke ground tomorrow, it would still be a year behind the other expansions. Lots of movement will happen in the meantime.


One way I thought they might get around that is by giving UA the 12 new gates that are currently being built in A first and keeping F9 and DL where they are now until the next phase is complete (whether that's A-East or C-West).
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BNAMealer
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:07 am

intotheair wrote:
mkorpal333 wrote:
Even if they broke ground tomorrow, it would still be a year behind the other expansions. Lots of movement will happen in the meantime.


One way I thought they might get around that is by giving UA the 12 new gates that are currently being built in A first and keeping F9 and DL where they are now until the next phase is complete (whether that's A-East or C-West).


Why wasn’t at least an A east extension included from the get go? I agree with the Cranky flier article from above that things don’t add up.....

BTW: The title of this thread needs to be updated now that it is confirmed
 
mkorpal333
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:04 am

intotheair wrote:
mkorpal333 wrote:
Even if they broke ground tomorrow, it would still be a year behind the other expansions. Lots of movement will happen in the meantime.


One way I thought they might get around that is by giving UA the 12 new gates that are currently being built in A first and keeping F9 and DL where they are now until the next phase is complete (whether that's A-East or C-West).


I suppose timing is a pretty big factor that seems very relevant.
 
DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:34 am

Timing is going to be a huge factor, it doesn't really help the airport or UA for them to get 23 gates all at once in 2021, I doubt that UA could have an instant need for them and it would help give the airport time to relocate everyone or complete additional expansions. If UA only got the 12 new A Concourse gates in 2021 and the rest a year later then both F9 and DL could stay on A for longer if they were to start construction on another expansion. The current expansions were approved Nov of 2017, so roughly 4 years from approval to completion. If they somehow got everything ready and approved by this summer maybe the expansion could be complete Q1 2023.

While it is easy to say why didn't they build more originally, the airport is building a total 56 new gates (not counting gates that have been removed for construction) in a 5 year time span. On B East there are about thirteen gates that are lost, but that is still 43 gates in 5 years. I don't know of any other airport that has added that much capacity in such a short time frame.
 
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ADent
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:01 am

The contract has the following dates:
B West - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2020"
B East - "the end of the third quarter of 2021"
A New Gates - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2021"
A Existing Gates - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2021"
A United Club - "the fourth quarter of 2021"

These are from https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... 2B42407714, which is available at this page: https://denver.legistar.com/Legislation ... s=&Search=
 
N649DL
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:12 am

ADent wrote:
The contract has the following dates:
B West - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2020"
B East - "the end of the third quarter of 2021"
A New Gates - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2021"
A Existing Gates - "the end of the fourth quarter of 2021"
A United Club - "the fourth quarter of 2021"

These are from https://denver.legistar.com/View.ashx?M ... 2B42407714, which is available at this page: https://denver.legistar.com/Legislation ... s=&Search=


So DL loses its new SkyClub and UA re-inherits CO’s in A? I actually like that DL club, but hate the bathroom situation. Perhaps it’s for the best
 
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intotheair
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:35 am

N649DL wrote:
So DL loses its new SkyClub and UA re-inherits CO’s in A? I actually like that DL club, but hate the bathroom situation. Perhaps it’s for the best


The linked document says that DIA and UA will "agree to work together, in good faith, to identify the specific location of the Concourse A Club Space." No indication (yet) that UA will take over DL's club. It also says DIA will hand over the space to UA in a "white shell" condition by Q4 2021, so we're probably talking about two years or longer before the club actually opens.
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DEN1895
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:17 am

N649DL wrote:

So DL loses its new SkyClub and UA re-inherits CO’s in A? I actually like that DL club, but hate the bathroom situation. Perhaps it’s for the best


I have heard they are looking at the space in the upper levels by the shopping area between A32 & A34 similar to how the clubs on B Concourse are set up. This also makes sense if the airport is announcing another expansion in the near future, Delta may move back into their club after all of the construction is complete.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:29 am

BooDog wrote:
No way they all go to UA and WN. All NK and F9 have to do is file a complaint with DOJ, and they will get a few gates.

I would say that DEN knows on which sie of the toast the butter is on and they'll award the gates to who will serve them reliably.
 
Someone83
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Re: OFFICIAL: UA Gains 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:11 pm

Any other Airlines that got more gates?
 
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enilria
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:54 pm

DEN1895 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
WN is reportedly lobbying for the 16 new gates at Terminal C; it doesn't appear as though UA's request for the new gates at A & B would have too much of an impact on WN's request at DEN.

I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.
 
flight152
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:53 pm

enilria wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.

Typical United hate from Enrilria. Which airline employs more people in Denver? I’m guessing it’s not Frontier.
 
bigb
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:31 pm

enilria wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.


Money talks, BS walks. United is will be bringing in more money and jobs for DIA in the eyes of city counsel.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: OFFICIAL: UA Gains 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:56 pm

If UA meets the contractual requirements for minimum use, and DEN meets requirements for non-discriminatory access (gate facilities at rational prices for all who ask for them) there's no reason to complain.
 
jayunited
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:21 pm

enilria wrote:
It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.


UA only wants these gate to deny them to competitors do you have any actual evidence to support this negative sentiment?

Is F9 and NK fully utilizing the gates they currently have at DEN? Meaning averaging 8-10 departures daily from their gates especially during the summer travel season? Just because an airline is HQ'd in Denver doesn't mean that airline has the ability to bring in the amount of traffic needed for the City of Denver to recoup the cost of the expansion and make a profit.

I would agree with your sentiment if not for the investments UA has made at DEN over the past 2+ years including growing our daily departures and over the summer hitting our goal of 500 daily summer departures from DEN. UA has stated they are making investments in their mid-continent hubs no place has that investment been more evident than DEN and right now I see no reason to doubt that UA with additional gates can achieve their goal of 700 daily summer departures from DEN.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:52 pm

bigb wrote:
enilria wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:

The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.


Money talks, BS walks. United is will be bringing in more money and jobs for DIA in the eyes of city counsel.


wouldn't any airline that uses those gates be "bringing in money"?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:25 pm

enilria wrote:
DEN1895 wrote:
PA815 wrote:
I was wondering how the article determines which gates are new and which existing gates are included in the deal. 24 of 39 would leave 15 gates not spoken for, but there are more than that coming online on C, plus any gates that would end up allocated to Frontier or anyone else.


The 39 gate number is misleading because it includes the new gates on B that were always going to be United’s. When you take those out there are twelve new gates on A and 16 on C, if UA gets all of the A gates and WN gets all of the C gates there are no gates left for anyone else. The 2 main airlines that want additional gates and Frontier and Spirit. Frontier would like to have 12-15 gates total(currently have 9) and Spirit only wants 1 or 2 more. It will be interesting to see if City Council takes these factor into account or if they give all the new gates to just 2 airlines.

It would be far from the first time they screwed over the only airline actually HQ’d in Denver. Also, I’m just going to say it, UA only wants these gates to deny them to competitors. I bet usage will be the minimum for them not to be taken away.


United adding an extra 150 daily flights is much easier to believe than Frontier. United is spending a bunch of money in Denver. On Monday, United will be turning on a new $134 million baggage system on the B Concourse. Frontier doesn't even employ their own staff in Denver, let alone invest any money in their Denver operation. United's impact on the Denver economy dwarfs Frontier's by an order of magnitude.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 159
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Re: UA to Potentially Gain 24 of 39 New DEN Gates

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:42 pm

jayunited wrote:

UA only wants these gate to deny them to competitors do you have any actual evidence to support this negative sentiment?

Is F9 and NK fully utilizing the gates they currently have at DEN? Meaning averaging 8-10 departures daily from their gates especially during the summer travel season? Just because an airline is HQ'd in Denver doesn't mean that airline has the ability to bring in the amount of traffic needed for the City of Denver to recoup the cost of the expansion and make a profit.

I would agree with your sentiment if not for the investments UA has made at DEN over the past 2+ years including growing our daily departures and over the summer hitting our goal of 500 daily summer departures from DEN. UA has stated they are making investments in their mid-continent hubs no place has that investment been more evident than DEN and right now I see no reason to doubt that UA with additional gates can achieve their goal of 700 daily summer departures from DEN.


Here is the average use of the gates by airline for all of 2019, this excludes common use gates and only includes gates leased to those airlines.

DL…5.8
F9….7.4
AA…5.4
UA …6.2
WN…7.8
NK….6

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