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DL767STR
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:45 am

I don’t know if there is or will be a thread keeping track of parked aircraft, but I noticed currently N511DN an A350 and N109DU an A220 are at ATL with no further flights scheduled, but N996DL a MD-88 and N676DL a 757 both have flights scheduled to the 17th, so if this is any indication this could be further confirmation of newer planes being parked while older planes are being flown.

In my personal opinion Delta offers enough of a consistent fleet experience across all types such as in flight WiFi on all aircraft except the CRJ100/200 that this shouldn’t matter or be that much of a big deal, especially since most people won’t be flying or traveling during this period anyways.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:25 am

DL767STR wrote:
I don’t know if there is or will be a thread keeping track of parked aircraft, but I noticed currently N511DN an A350 and N109DU an A220 are at ATL with no further flights scheduled, but N996DL a MD-88 and N676DL a 757 both have flights scheduled to the 17th, so if this is any indication this could be further confirmation of newer planes being parked while older planes are being flown.

In my personal opinion Delta offers enough of a consistent fleet experience across all types such as in flight WiFi on all aircraft except the CRJ100/200 that this shouldn’t matter or be that much of a big deal, especially since most people won’t be flying or traveling during this period anyways.



All planes are still being rotated through the system, the specific tail numbers and parking locations are still TBD.

The FAA has supposedly granted the use of runway 10/28 and taxiways SC ,SG and SJ in ATL as parking locations for aircraft.

As they park I'll try and update.
 
SELMER40
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:27 pm

Also, 12 could be parked at MEM.
Teaching this old dog a new trick
 
Delta350
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:14 pm

Any news on what planes will be parked at BHM?
Plane Spotter from the Magic City and Hartsfield-Jackson...(ATL)
 
deltaSEAalsaka
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:43 pm

Delta350 wrote:
Any news on what planes will be parked at BHM?


Based on FlightRadar, it looks like some widebodies will be making their way there tomorrow.
There is no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people asking questions.
 
xdlx
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:48 pm

Besides the already announced MD88/90 retirement, do we see the A319/320 replaced by A220/321's? Looks like the next older batch of planes are these, and a shrink of the company may translate into lesser frequency with larger planes in some routes.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:31 pm

I don't know. With empty planes the key op cost metric isn't CASM, it's trip cost.

I wouldn't lump the 319s together with the 320s. After the MD-88s, the 320 subtype is, on average, DL's oldest type (24.7 years): yes, older than the 752s (23.4 years) and 763s. (23.9 years), all per planespotters.net. I wouldn't expect DL to spend a lot of money to keep the oldest tranche of A320s flying - 33 frames presently 27-30 years old. There's a five-year break to the start of the 2nd tranche of A320s, 22-17 years old. Retiring half the 320s does nothing for fleet/crew simplification when you've still got 57 319s and 100 321s (and more on the way).

320s and 319s have enough range to do pretty much everything US48. Can anybody point to figures showing 80 people on a 319 MSP-MCO costs more to operate than a 321 with 80 people on the same route?

I don't completely dismiss the idea of lower frequencies/larger planes, but I think it's just going to be lower frequencies well into 2021. You've got UA planning for a 4Q20 30% reduction in capacity, and the JP Morgan analyst talking about 2021 revenues being off 25%.
 
xdlx
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:50 pm

I guess the 50 seaters can not overcome CASM issues this time around. ALL 319 about 15y old are they owned or leased?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:44 pm

The Annual Report shows 55 A319s owned and just two on operating lease.

I don't recall the specific caps on total RJs as a function of mainline fleet for DL. (Maybe somebody will jump in with CR7, E75/CR9, and total functions.) If they're forced to cut CR2 count it's going to be ugly for DL's total destinations served: if routes didn't support 2-class RJs before they certainly won't now.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I don't know. With empty planes the key op cost metric isn't CASM, it's trip cost.

I wouldn't lump the 319s together with the 320s. After the MD-88s, the 320 subtype is, on average, DL's oldest type (24.7 years): yes, older than the 752s (23.4 years) and 763s. (23.9 years), all per planespotters.net. I wouldn't expect DL to spend a lot of money to keep the oldest tranche of A320s flying - 33 frames presently 27-30 years old. There's a five-year break to the start of the 2nd tranche of A320s, 22-17 years old. Retiring half the 320s does nothing for fleet/crew simplification when you've still got 57 319s and 100 321s (and more on the way).

320s and 319s have enough range to do pretty much everything US48. Can anybody point to figures showing 80 people on a 319 MSP-MCO costs more to operate than a 321 with 80 people on the same route?

I don't completely dismiss the idea of lower frequencies/larger planes, but I think it's just going to be lower frequencies well into 2021. You've got UA planning for a 4Q20 30% reduction in capacity, and the JP Morgan analyst talking about 2021 revenues being off 25%.


In the narrowbody fleet, the 717, 220, 320, and 737 are all going to continue to be categories even with deep cuts. My guess is that between now and the end of 2020, any airplane in any of those fleets that needs a heavy maintenance visit will be parked. Then, as the economy recovers, they will send airplanes back through maintenance as they have cash to do so. It will have nothing to do with aircraft age, as all the narrowbody fleet has been refurbished. It will have to do with "green" time left to next HMV. In the longer term, rather than see a sub-type such as the 319 or 738 cut out of a fleet, I think you will instead see whole fleets cut. The -88/-90 fleet is already going, and I think the next most vulnerable fleet is the 757 and 767. They are older and more expensive to operate, and the 767-300ERs are too low density for domestic and too dated in business class to be competitive for international. If they want to save cash by cutting whole pilot training categories, I think you will see the 757/767 category go away rather than a subfleet go away.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:22 pm

TW870 wrote:
It will have nothing to do with aircraft age, as all the narrowbody fleet has been refurbished.


I reject that idea, and so do you just a few sentences later.

TW870 wrote:
I think the next most vulnerable fleet is the 757 and 767. They are older and more expensive to operate...


One doesn't find many early A320s with major passenger carriers still in operation worldwide. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... 0/A320-200
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:07 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TW870 wrote:
It will have nothing to do with aircraft age, as all the narrowbody fleet has been refurbished.


I reject that idea, and so do you just a few sentences later.

TW870 wrote:
I think the next most vulnerable fleet is the 757 and 767. They are older and more expensive to operate...


One doesn't find many early A320s with major passenger carriers still in operation worldwide. https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... 0/A320-200


It will have nothing to do with age of specific aircraft WITHIN FLEETS. If an A320 has 2,000 hours of green time left, it will keep flying even if it is a 1990s build. If N378NW, the newest A320 delivered, has 50 hours of green time left, it goes to the desert.

As far as WHOLE FLEETS go, older and more expensive aircraft are vulnerable. -88/-90 first, 757/767 second in my opinion. Grounding a whole fleet generates significant costs savings by simplifying the pilot roster and reducing parts spares among many others. If they opt to park a fleet, even a bird fresh out of an HMV with thousands of hours of green time will go to the desert.

This is my understanding based on overall cash conservation. Things will continue to evolve as the revenue picture continues to become clearer.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:19 pm

MD88/90s are certainty done in the next few months.

The 757/767 fleet is tricky in the sense as to just how big of fleet that still represents, their anticipated longevity prior to this downturn, and when replacement capacity may be available. Some are never going to fly again
Aircraft from all fleet types are likely to go into storage as they hit maintenance checks.
I'd anticipate the this will probably end any additional HMV work on the 757s.
The question is going to be how much deferral of A321NEO and A339s pushes out.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:49 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MD88/90s are certainty done in the next few months.

The 757/767 fleet is tricky in the sense as to just how big of fleet that still represents, their anticipated longevity prior to this downturn, and when replacement capacity may be available. Some are never going to fly again
Aircraft from all fleet types are likely to go into storage as they hit maintenance checks.
I'd anticipate the this will probably end any additional HMV work on the 757s.
The question is going to be how much deferral of A321NEO and A339s pushes out.


Yep I totally agree that this whole picture is going to be determined by Delta's cash management strategy as it pertains to new aircraft deliveries on all fleets. Will we ever see the remaining 20-or so 321ceos (I'm guessing not except for those already in production), and how fast will new frames from the 220, 321neo, 339, 359 (DL) and 359 (LATAM) orders end up coming in (keeping in mind that 3 220s, 4 339s, and at least 2 359s are already built)? You are absolutely right that the 757/767 fleet is a ton of lift. I think the only possible way it goes as a whole entity over the short/medium term is if they keep a fairly aggressive delivery rate on the 321neo, 339, and 359 fleets. That seems unlikely to me as I doubt DL is going to have the cash to finance all those deliveries.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:16 am

Green time is the key as to what gets parked and what flies. All major maintenance is on hold right now. Internal talk is the MD88/90 fleet will be retired soon. On date was communicated on this week's VP call. It was stated that some of the 767 fleet could be retired also. I personally think the 757 fleet will stick around. I think the HMV work on the 757 was already done. I've been away form the airframe side foe a while and have lost track.

The fleet plan is very fluid right now and not a lot of it is being communicated to the rank and file.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:43 am

757-300 is the lowest operating cost per revenue mile domestic aircraft on a per mile stage.

Dalmd88 wrote:
Green time is the key as to what gets parked and what flies. All major maintenance is on hold right now. Internal talk is the MD88/90 fleet will be retired soon. On date was communicated on this week's VP call. It was stated that some of the 767 fleet could be retired also. I personally think the 757 fleet will stick around. I think the HMV work on the 757 was already done. I've been away form the airframe side foe a while and have lost track.

The fleet plan is very fluid right now and not a lot of it is being communicated to the rank and file.
 
ACA772LR
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:59 am

[twoid][/twoid]
Dalmd88 wrote:
Green time is the key as to what gets parked and what flies. All major maintenance is on hold right now. Internal talk is the MD88/90 fleet will be retired soon. On date was communicated on this week's VP call. It was stated that some of the 767 fleet could be retired also. I personally think the 757 fleet will stick around. I think the HMV work on the 757 was already done. I've been away form the airframe side foe a while and have lost track.

The fleet plan is very fluid right now and not a lot of it is being communicated to the rank and file.


I wonder how much longer the MD88-90d will be flying for
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:55 pm

n7371f wrote:
757-300 is the lowest operating cost per revenue mile domestic aircraft on a per mile stage.


Is it still, with 180-seat 739s and 192-seat 321s on a typical ~1,800 mile trip?
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:58 pm

Perhaps the reason other than capacity, that the 757 is parked is to preserve cycle hours so they can last longer?
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
heretothere
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:20 pm

Question for the DL knowledgeable: How many fleet groups are there for pilots? Is it eight? (220, MDs, 320, 737, 756, 330, 350, 777)

Was thinking about AA moves to reduce fleet complexity and wondering about DL’s ability to do the same.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:24 pm

n7371f wrote:
757-300 is the lowest operating cost per revenue mile domestic aircraft on a per mile stage.

Dalmd88 wrote:
Green time is the key as to what gets parked and what flies. All major maintenance is on hold right now. Internal talk is the MD88/90 fleet will be retired soon. On date was communicated on this week's VP call. It was stated that some of the 767 fleet could be retired also. I personally think the 757 fleet will stick around. I think the HMV work on the 757 was already done. I've been away form the airframe side foe a while and have lost track.

The fleet plan is very fluid right now and not a lot of it is being communicated to the rank and file.



It’s also the lowest rasm. Especially in an environment where demand is weak.
 
LHA320
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:45 pm

heretothere wrote:
Question for the DL knowledgeable: How many fleet groups are there for pilots? Is it eight? (220, MDs, 320, 737, 756, 330, 350, 777)

Was thinking about AA moves to reduce fleet complexity and wondering about DL’s ability to do the same.


Two more: 717 and 764
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
xdlx
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:09 pm

tphuang wrote:
n7371f wrote:
757-300 is the lowest operating cost per revenue mile domestic aircraft on a per mile stage.

Dalmd88 wrote:
Green time is the key as to what gets parked and what flies. All major maintenance is on hold right now. Internal talk is the MD88/90 fleet will be retired soon. On date was communicated on this week's VP call. It was stated that some of the 767 fleet could be retired also. I personally think the 757 fleet will stick around. I think the HMV work on the 757 was already done. I've been away form the airframe side foe a while and have lost track.

The fleet plan is very fluid right now and not a lot of it is being communicated to the rank and file.



It’s also the lowest rasm. Especially in an environment where demand is weak.


Was truly amazes me is that even with 100 A321... DL still can not replace the 757 in many of the missions is utilized.
 
heretothere
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:39 pm

LHA320 wrote:
heretothere wrote:
Question for the DL knowledgeable: How many fleet groups are there for pilots? Is it eight? (220, MDs, 320, 737, 756, 330, 350, 777)

Was thinking about AA moves to reduce fleet complexity and wondering about DL’s ability to do the same.


Two more: 717 and 764


Interesting, thank you. Makes sense for the 717, but I’m surprised by the 764 being a separate category though. I assume it would require 757/763 cockpit upgrades to combine 756 and 764 groups?
 
LHA320
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:20 pm

heretothere wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
heretothere wrote:
Question for the DL knowledgeable: How many fleet groups are there for pilots? Is it eight? (220, MDs, 320, 737, 756, 330, 350, 777)

Was thinking about AA moves to reduce fleet complexity and wondering about DL’s ability to do the same.


Two more: 717 and 764


Interesting, thank you. Makes sense for the 717, but I’m surprised by the 764 being a separate category though. I assume it would require 757/763 cockpit upgrades to combine 756 and 764 groups?


The 764 features a (kind of) 777 styled cockpit, have a look at the pictures here on anet. With just 38 examples build the 764 is an orphan, so upgrades to 757/763 to match the 764 cockpits making no sense. But to go back to your first question. DL has 10 pilot groups. With the MDs retired it would be 9, not renewing the 717 leases from Boeing would reduce it 8. But I'm no expert on DL's fleet...
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:18 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
This is my opinion. Delta will keep operating the MD-88 aircraft until the time is up on them until retiring them. Delta will park or temporarily store other newer aircraft, such as the A319 and A320 aircraft so that they can utilize them for a longer period of time. Delta flies their aircraft until the wings are about to fall off. Example Delta flew their 747-451 aircraft until they needed to preform a fuel inverting modification and other work at the end of 2017. United retired theirs for the same reason at about the same time. About seven of United's were sold and are still flying. Maybe Delta's 747s were close to needing a D-Check and are still in storage if not broken up. :old:


These are desperate times, and DL's fleet strategy will be impacted by a mixture of cost savings and cash conservation. Once the hysteria dies down and things stabilize somewhat, I expect that retirement of the MD-88 and MD-90 (previously scheduled for retirement by year's end, and 2022, respectively) will be accelerated - simply because it's too expensive to keep a bunch of aircraft around that you know you won't need - but we'll likely see a variety of other aircraft parked, likely influenced by maintenance schedules. Those aircraft will likely return to service as economic conditions dictate, or when older 320, 757 and 763 reach the end of their natural service life (and that's coming quickly --- a 320, four 757 and six 763 are turning 30-years-old this year). I also believe some 717 may be returned to their lessor.

Of course, that could change if the economy totally collapses.

I should have added the following to my original statement which has also has been brought up by some other posters. The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop. Keeping the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft may be less expensive than qualifying pilots on other aircraft and preserve the available time available before heavy maintenance is needed newer aircraft. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:32 pm

xdlx wrote:
Was truly amazes me is that even with 100 A321... DL still can not replace the 757 in many of the missions is utilized.


Logical fallacy. The sole reason DL has a large 757 fleet is simply because it and NW purchased a large number of late models of the type. NW preferred to add the 321 for commonality with its 319/320, but stood to lose millions in deposits from a 1980s order. Later, DL choose to invest in refurbishing its fleet rather than replacing it -- DL/NW took delivery of less than 50 (mainline) aircraft during a 10-year period covering the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. For comparison's sake, they took delivery of 79 aircraft just last year alone.

The number of (non-Atlantic) missions the 321 is insufficient in replacing the 757 on could be counted on one hand...
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:10 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Was truly amazes me is that even with 100 A321... DL still can not replace the 757 in many of the missions is utilized.


Logical fallacy. The sole reason DL has a large 757 fleet is simply because it and NW purchased a large number of late models of the type. NW preferred to add the 321 for commonality with its 319/320, but stood to lose millions in deposits from a 1980s order. Later, DL choose to invest in refurbishing its fleet rather than replacing it -- DL/NW took delivery of less than 50 (mainline) aircraft during a 10-year period covering the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. For comparison's sake, they took delivery of 79 aircraft just last year alone.

The number of (non-Atlantic) missions the A321 is insufficient in replacing the 757 on could be counted on one hand...

Even if both Delta and Northwest could have wanted to afford buying large numbers of A321s from Airbus they did NOT have the range of the Boeing 757 aircraft. The A321 was originally designed for operating the shorter distances in Europe carrying more passengers while both Delta and Northwest operated 727s. Northwest did operate the A320 and Delta was operating some 737s. Also in the 1980s and 1990s twenty aircraft was considered a large order. If more were needed options were exercised.
The 757 was ahead of it's time in that it had a longer range than the A321 being built at the time. It still is but the difference is smaller. ETOPS was not established so the 757 could not fly trans oceanic. If that was possible more 757s would have been bought by more airlines. Delta is now taking advantage of that like Icelandic Airlines even though they operate a hub in Iceland. Icelandic is starting to replace their 757s with longer range 737s. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
tjerome
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:06 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Was truly amazes me is that even with 100 A321... DL still can not replace the 757 in many of the missions is utilized.


Logical fallacy. The sole reason DL has a large 757 fleet is simply because it and NW purchased a large number of late models of the type. NW preferred to add the 321 for commonality with its 319/320, but stood to lose millions in deposits from a 1980s order. Later, DL choose to invest in refurbishing its fleet rather than replacing it -- DL/NW took delivery of less than 50 (mainline) aircraft during a 10-year period covering the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. For comparison's sake, they took delivery of 79 aircraft just last year alone.

The number of (non-Atlantic) missions the 321 is insufficient in replacing the 757 on could be counted on one hand...


Those 321s aren't capable of doing JFK/BOS/etc. to the west coast. They just barely have enough tank capacity to do ATL-LAX.
 
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res77W
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:30 am

Did I read on this site somewhere that DL A321s don’t have auxiliary fuel tanks? American and JetBlue operate A321s on transcon flights, so it would seem irrational to say the A321 isn’t capable. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

-Rowen
 
tjerome
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:35 am

res77W wrote:
Did I read on this site somewhere that DL A321s don’t have auxiliary fuel tanks? American and JetBlue operate A321s on transcon flights, so it would seem irrational to say the A321 isn’t capable. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

-Rowen


That's correct, max fuel capacity is somewhere around 42k. They can just barely pull off ATL-LAX.
 
KFTG
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:49 am

heretothere wrote:
I assume it would require 757/763 cockpit upgrades to combine 756 and 764 groups?

No...
It is strictly "how" the airline wants to structure their operation.
At CO, the 400 was always part of the "756" fleet - which back the included the 757-200(RR), 757-300(RR), 767-200ER, and 767-400ER.
Today at UA, the 757-200 (PW & RR), 757-300 (RR), 767-300ER and 767-400ER are all a single fleet...
 
RalXWB
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:51 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
xdlx wrote:
Was truly amazes me is that even with 100 A321... DL still can not replace the 757 in many of the missions is utilized.


Logical fallacy. The sole reason DL has a large 757 fleet is simply because it and NW purchased a large number of late models of the type. NW preferred to add the 321 for commonality with its 319/320, but stood to lose millions in deposits from a 1980s order. Later, DL choose to invest in refurbishing its fleet rather than replacing it -- DL/NW took delivery of less than 50 (mainline) aircraft during a 10-year period covering the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. For comparison's sake, they took delivery of 79 aircraft just last year alone.

The number of (non-Atlantic) missions the A321 is insufficient in replacing the 757 on could be counted on one hand...

Even if both Delta and Northwest could have wanted to afford buying large numbers of A321s from Airbus they did NOT have the range of the Boeing 757 aircraft. The A321 was originally designed for operating the shorter distances in Europe carrying more passengers while both Delta and Northwest operated 727s. Northwest did operate the A320 and Delta was operating some 737s. Also in the 1980s and 1990s twenty aircraft was considered a large order. If more were needed options were exercised.
The 757 was ahead of it's time in that it had a longer range than the A321 being built at the time. It still is but the difference is smaller. ETOPS was not established so the 757 could not fly trans oceanic. If that was possible more 757s would have been bought by more airlines. Delta is now taking advantage of that like Icelandic Airlines even though they operate a hub in Iceland. Icelandic is starting to replace their 757s with longer range 737s. :old:


I am sorry to burst your bubble but today´s A321 flies the same payload farther than the 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient so NO the 757 does not still have more range. #facts #rantover
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:19 am

RalXWB wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

Logical fallacy. The sole reason DL has a large 757 fleet is simply because it and NW purchased a large number of late models of the type. NW preferred to add the 321 for commonality with its 319/320, but stood to lose millions in deposits from a 1980s order. Later, DL choose to invest in refurbishing its fleet rather than replacing it -- DL/NW took delivery of less than 50 (mainline) aircraft during a 10-year period covering the mid-2000s to mid-2010s. For comparison's sake, they took delivery of 79 aircraft just last year alone.

The number of (non-Atlantic) missions the A321 is insufficient in replacing the 757 on could be counted on one hand...

Even if both Delta and Northwest could have wanted to afford buying large numbers of A321s from Airbus they did NOT have the range of the Boeing 757 aircraft. The A321 was originally designed for operating the shorter distances in Europe carrying more passengers while both Delta and Northwest operated 727s. Northwest did operate the A320 and Delta was operating some 737s. Also in the 1980s and 1990s twenty aircraft was considered a large order. If more were needed options were exercised.
The 757 was ahead of it's time in that it had a longer range than the A321 being built at the time. It still is but the difference is smaller. ETOPS was not established so the 757 could not fly trans oceanic. If that was possible more 757s would have been bought by more airlines. Delta is now taking advantage of that like Icelandic Airlines even though they operate a hub in Iceland. Icelandic is starting to replace their 757s with longer range 737s. :old:


I am sorry to burst your bubble but today´s A321 flies the same payload farther than the 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient so NO the 757 does not still have more range. #facts #rantover


The A321 did not have the range when NWA were still flying.

The poster is not talking about now, but back then.
 
ACA772LR
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:55 pm

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:09 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
This is my opinion. Delta will keep operating the MD-88 aircraft until the time is up on them until retiring them. Delta will park or temporarily store other newer aircraft, such as the A319 and A320 aircraft so that they can utilize them for a longer period of time. Delta flies their aircraft until the wings are about to fall off. Example Delta flew their 747-451 aircraft until they needed to preform a fuel inverting modification and other work at the end of 2017. United retired theirs for the same reason at about the same time. About seven of United's were sold and are still flying. Maybe Delta's 747s were close to needing a D-Check and are still in storage if not broken up. :old:


These are desperate times, and DL's fleet strategy will be impacted by a mixture of cost savings and cash conservation. Once the hysteria dies down and things stabilize somewhat, I expect that retirement of the MD-88 and MD-90 (previously scheduled for retirement by year's end, and 2022, respectively) will be accelerated - simply because it's too expensive to keep a bunch of aircraft around that you know you won't need - but we'll likely see a variety of other aircraft parked, likely influenced by maintenance schedules. Those aircraft will likely return to service as economic conditions dictate, or when older 320, 757 and 763 reach the end of their natural service life (and that's coming quickly --- a 320, four 757 and six 763 are turning 30-years-old this year). I also believe some 717 may be returned to their lessor.

Of course, that could change if the economy totally collapses.

I should have added the following to my original statement which has also has been brought up by some other posters. The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop. Keeping the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft may be less expensive than qualifying pilots on other aircraft and preserve the available time available before heavy maintenance is needed newer aircraft. :old:


I hope you’re 100% right on the MD80-90 retirement timeline...
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Even if both Delta and Northwest could have wanted to afford buying large numbers of A321s from Airbus they did NOT have the range of the Boeing 757 aircraft. The A321 was originally designed for operating the shorter distances in Europe carrying more passengers while both Delta and Northwest operated 727s. Northwest did operate the A320 and Delta was operating some 737s. Also in the 1980s and 1990s twenty aircraft was considered a large order. If more were needed options were exercised.
The 757 was ahead of it's time in that it had a longer range than the A321 being built at the time. It still is but the difference is smaller. ETOPS was not established so the 757 could not fly trans oceanic. If that was possible more 757s would have been bought by more airlines. Delta is now taking advantage of that like Icelandic Airlines even though they operate a hub in Iceland. Icelandic is starting to replace their 757s with longer range 737s. :old:


I am sorry to burst your bubble but today´s A321 flies the same payload farther than the 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient so NO the 757 does not still have more range. #facts #rantover


The A321 did not have the range when NWA were still flying.

The poster is not talking about now, but back then.


I asserted that the reason NW wound up with so many late model 757 is because of an outstanding 1980s order; by the early 2000s, the preference was for the 321 (due to commonality with the 319/320), but NW stood to loss tens of millions of dollars in deposits. By that time, the 321 could’ve performed nearly every route in the NW network and for the ones it couldn’t, it had a large fleet of older 757, anyway.

My whole point is that DL operates a large fleet of 757 not because there’s no suitable replacement, but because it (and NW) bought numerous late models of the aircraft and later it opted to refurbish rather than replace these aircraft.
 
Lootess
Posts: 377
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:23 am

Don't forget the 757 early 5500s from NW got a 2nd life with DL after the merger and were a good stopgap until new planes came onto the property.

Then DL made an all-in play when they took the former TWA 757 leases that AA didn't want anymore and used them for the JFK thin transatlantic routes. Over the years they did pick up more late model PW powered 757s. Such as N624AG, now parked at VCV.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7938
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:15 pm

The 5500s only got a lease on life post-merger in the sense they just ran them out until they hit a heavy maintenance cycle. Many of these cycled in and out of storage during NW's Ch. 11 bankruptcy and subsequent restructuring. They got the bare minimum in terms of an interior refresh from DL only getting new carpet and seat covers. A bunch were parked early-on in the merger process in 2010/2011 but a some soldered on longer simply as a need to up-gauge capacity in their post-merger network to add capacity. It was basically a stop-gap until the 739ERs came on-line.
 
User avatar
DL_Mech
Posts: 2458
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:57 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They got the bare minimum in terms of an interior refresh from DL only getting new carpet and seat covers.


Some ships received new 737NG style ceiling panels to cover the holes left by the video monitors. A waste of money if you asked me. The 5500s were not as bad as some made them out to be.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
Lootess
Posts: 377
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:38 pm

Image

Here is the helicopter video of Delta narrowbodies parked at MCI:

https://www.kmbc.com/article/delta-airlines-parking-planes-on-runway-at-kci-airport/32148682?fbclid=IwAR3XuAOsT9oz_mzq1VH9sREI4SfXD7XbJ4p2iwoXQCz-BAt65tTlHQ583gc

DL_Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
They got the bare minimum in terms of an interior refresh from DL only getting new carpet and seat covers.


Some ships received new 737NG style ceiling panels to cover the holes left by the video monitors. A waste of money if you asked me. The 5500s were not as bad as some made them out to be.


Some of the 5500s were in real bad shape, but most were okay despite the classic overhead bins too. I know they never installed LCDs on these, only the 5600s if I recall.
 
APRobert
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:14 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 7:09 am

[quote="RalXWB"
I am sorry to burst your bubble but today´s A321 flies the same payload farther than the 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient so NO the 757 does not still have more range. #facts #rantover[/quote]

Ranges for Delta's A321's and 757's according to Delta's public fleet information site.

A321-200: 191 seats, range 2,565 miles.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/airbus/a321

757-300: 234 seats,range 3,285 miles.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/757-300

757-200 Subfleet D: 199 seats, range 3,370 miles.
https://www.delta.com/us/en/aircraft/boeing/757-200

757-200 Subfleet H: 199 seats, range 3,980 miles.

757-200 Subfleet G: 193 seats, range 4,705 miles.

757-200 Subfleet S: 168 seats, range 4,705 miles.
 
APRobert
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:14 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 3:16 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
This is my opinion. Delta will keep operating the MD-88 aircraft until the time is up on them until retiring them. Delta will park or temporarily store other newer aircraft, such as the A319 and A320 aircraft so that they can utilize them for a longer period of time. Delta flies their aircraft until the wings are about to fall off. Example Delta flew their 747-451 aircraft until they needed to preform a fuel inverting modification and other work at the end of 2017. United retired theirs for the same reason at about the same time. About seven of United's were sold and are still flying. Maybe Delta's 747s were close to needing a D-Check and are still in storage if not broken up. :old:


These are desperate times, and DL's fleet strategy will be impacted by a mixture of cost savings and cash conservation. Once the hysteria dies down and things stabilize somewhat, I expect that retirement of the MD-88 and MD-90 (previously scheduled for retirement by year's end, and 2022, respectively) will be accelerated - simply because it's too expensive to keep a bunch of aircraft around that you know you won't need - but we'll likely see a variety of other aircraft parked, likely influenced by maintenance schedules. Those aircraft will likely return to service as economic conditions dictate, or when older 320, 757 and 763 reach the end of their natural service life (and that's coming quickly --- a 320, four 757 and six 763 are turning 30-years-old this year). I also believe some 717 may be returned to their lessor.

Of course, that could change if the economy totally collapses.

I should have added the following to my original statement which has also has been brought up by some other posters. The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop. Keeping the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft may be less expensive than qualifying pilots on other aircraft and preserve the available time available before heavy maintenance is needed newer aircraft. :old:


Regarding: "The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop."

Guess Again - Delta has announced the MD-88's and MD-90's will be retired "effective June 2020". See the Delta press release at the link below.
https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june

As long as Delta keeps paying the MD-88 and MD-90 pilots Delta's monthly 65 flight hour minimum they are not furloughed. Only if Delta stops paying these pilots for 65 flight hours a month will they be furloughed. At Delta active pilots average about 72 flight hours a month, and max flight hours per month are 80. Delta is under no obligation to retrain these pilots to fly anything else, nor under any obligation to train the many low seniority pilots of non-retired aircraft types, for whom there is currently no work, to fly another aircraft type, until or unless Delta puts up routes for bid, at which time pilots can bid for routes and aircraft type changes by seniority per the terms of Delta's pilots contract. As long as passengers are down by 95%, the number of open routes to bid on should be pretty much zero.
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1329
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:09 pm

APRobert wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:

These are desperate times, and DL's fleet strategy will be impacted by a mixture of cost savings and cash conservation. Once the hysteria dies down and things stabilize somewhat, I expect that retirement of the MD-88 and MD-90 (previously scheduled for retirement by year's end, and 2022, respectively) will be accelerated - simply because it's too expensive to keep a bunch of aircraft around that you know you won't need - but we'll likely see a variety of other aircraft parked, likely influenced by maintenance schedules. Those aircraft will likely return to service as economic conditions dictate, or when older 320, 757 and 763 reach the end of their natural service life (and that's coming quickly --- a 320, four 757 and six 763 are turning 30-years-old this year). I also believe some 717 may be returned to their lessor.

Of course, that could change if the economy totally collapses.

I should have added the following to my original statement which has also has been brought up by some other posters. The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop. Keeping the MD-88 and MD-90 aircraft may be less expensive than qualifying pilots on other aircraft and preserve the available time available before heavy maintenance is needed newer aircraft. :old:


Regarding: "The soonest that any serious retirements of the MD-88 and MD-90 may be retired could be after September, 2020 if Delta accepts ANY Federal aid due to the furlough requirements mandated. Also if the MD-88 and MD-90 are retired affected pilots would need to be qualified on other aircraft though expensive, lengthily simulator time and possibly a test hop."

Guess Again - Delta has announced the MD-88's and MD-90's will be retired "effective June 2020". See the Delta press release at the link below.
https://news.delta.com/delta-retire-md- ... leets-june

As long as Delta keeps paying the MD-88 and MD-90 pilots Delta's monthly 65 flight hour minimum they are not furloughed. Only if Delta stops paying these pilots for 65 flight hours a month will they be furloughed. At Delta active pilots average about 72 flight hours a month, and max flight hours per month are 80. Delta is under no obligation to retrain these pilots to fly anything else, nor under any obligation to train the many low seniority pilots of non-retired aircraft types, for whom there is currently no work, to fly another aircraft type, until or unless Delta puts up routes for bid, at which time pilots can bid for routes and aircraft type changes by seniority per the terms of Delta's pilots contract. As long as passengers are down by 95%, the number of open routes to bid on should be pretty much zero.
alty
Delta could park every aircraft it has and as long as Delta continues to pay it's pilots, and all other employees, even if the pilots are sitting around doing nothing Delta can collect the "Federal grants" without penalty. However on October 1, 2020 Delta may lay off pilots in reverse seniority order along with the flight dispatchers in the same manner. Other employees are all "at will" employees and Delta may pick and chose what employees it wants to furlough in any order if any. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 pm

Going forward when Delta retires the last MD-88's and 90's, do they immediately sell it to a salvage outfit? Or do they have to pay some one to take it? This might be the case as the scrap price of aluminum has got to be pretty low today. Does anyone have a guess what that amount $$ would be?
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    pezzy669
    Posts: 205
    Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:30 pm

    Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

    Thu May 07, 2020 10:32 pm

    DL_Mech wrote:
    PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
    They got the bare minimum in terms of an interior refresh from DL only getting new carpet and seat covers.


    Some ships received new 737NG style ceiling panels to cover the holes left by the video monitors. A waste of money if you asked me. The 5500s were not as bad as some made them out to be.


    The three 5500's I flew in the years before they were retired were all beyond tired - one example I flew FLL-ATL the windows were so crazed it was just pointless to attempt to look out. I was fortunate to fly one of the last few in the fleet on MSP-ATL and it went into retirement a few short days later after slugging out a few more short ATL-MSY-ATL turns. What was the nickname - 757Nasty? :D
     
    APRobert
    Posts: 8
    Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:14 am

    Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 am

    xdlx wrote:
    Besides the already announced MD88/90 retirement, do we see the A319/320 replaced by A220/321's? Looks like the next older batch of planes are these, and a shrink of the company may translate into lesser frequency with larger planes in some routes.


    According to the The Points Guy, all 62 of Delta's A320's and 80 of its 130 737-900ER's are or soon will be parked, but not as of this time, retired. See the link below.https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-par ... -downturn/
     
    d8s
    Posts: 129
    Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:45 pm

    Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

    Wed May 27, 2020 1:38 am

    APRobert wrote:
    [quote="RalXWB"
    I am sorry to burst your bubble but today´s A321 flies the same payload farther than the 757 while being up to 30 percent more efficient so NO the 757 does not still have more range. #facts #rantover


    Appreciate the real data! RalXWB is just a Boeing hater and can’t accept facts
     
    User avatar
    Boeing757100
    Posts: 185
    Joined: Wed May 06, 2020 10:09 pm

    Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

    Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:46 pm

    After the death of Delta's 777s, MD-90s, and MD-88s, next leaves the A320s, 717s, 757s, and 767s. By far the oldest is the A320s. They are 24+ years old on average, compared to the 75's/76's who are just over 22 years old, which is also similar age to when the Mad Dog 90's were retired. I heard that the MD-90 actually have a better fuel burn than the 320s. (Probably not true.) I mean, I think the A320 family is kind of repetitive in the Delta fleet. The 737-700 can do what the A319s do, the 737-800s/900s can do what the older A320s do, and if they really need an upgauging from the 321, they have their 757s. Is it because of fleet commonality?? Plus, the 737 series as a whole is 9.5 years old according to planespotters. And the A320 series is 18.4 years old as a whole!! I'm just wondering.

    Stay safe!

    Thanks for answering.
    Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Reason: Title updated
     
    777Mech
    Posts: 924
    Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

    Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

    Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:02 pm

    They just went through an ESG program, giving them extra life. Some 320s will be coming out of storage in the next few days as well
     
    LCDFlight
    Posts: 447
    Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

    Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

    Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:07 pm

    Delta's future will still need the A320. It remains fully maintainable, unlike the M90 (and M88?). It is fuel efficient, unlike the 757 and 767 Domestic.

    Commonality, yes. Their A321 fleet kind of guarantees the fleet will remain. So none of their "scenarios" involve retiring the A320s at this time.
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