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MIflyer12
Posts: 8060
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:42 am

tnair1974 wrote:
Delta said 10 A320s will be retired (and 7 763s along with all 73Gs/777s, but surprisingly no 752s included at least not at this time).


Where/how were those numbers shared, please? The 10-Q filing says those have been retired already this quarter but doesn't give a number of 767s or A320s to be retired thru the quarter or balance of the year.

In the June 2020 quarter we retired our MD-90 fleet, seven 767-300ER aircraft and 10 A320 aircraft and will retire our 777 and 737-700 fleets by October 2020.

In the June 2020 quarter we recorded impairment
charges of $1.4 billion related to the 777 fleet, $330 million related to the MD-90 fleet, $220 million related to the 737-700 fleet, $180 million related to the seven
retired 767-300ER aircraft and $60 million related to the ten retired A320 aircraft in restructuring charges in our Condensed Consolidated Statements of Operations
and Comprehensive (Loss) Income ("income statement"). These impairment charges were calculated using Level 3 fair value inputs based primarily upon
forecasted future cash flows, recent market transactions, published pricing guides and our assessment of existing market conditions based on industry knowledge.
Following the impairment charges, the remaining cumulative net book value for these aircraft is $370 million.


To make the subtype avg age numbers work (planespotters.net, 62 at 24.9 years; DL's present 52 at 24.2 years) implies that the ten A320s retired had an avg age of 28.5 years. Both Planespotters and DL round to the nearest tenth of year so there may be a little room for error.
 
tnair1974
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I would assume the next 10 A320 due for a heavy maintenance visit are discarded. I'm not aware of any having so many cycles/hours to be obvious scrap candidates.

Indeed, the examples I've seen of specific older DL A320s is that they still have about 1/3 of their cycles left and 1/4 of their hours remaining. Besides covering for retiring MD-88s/MD-90s, DL A320s being shifted to shorter routes in recent years may be a way to even out the cycles/hours. Anyway, even the oldest birds could easily go several more years although not sure DL originally planned on cycling/timing out their oldest A320s.

Needless to say under more normal circumstances, the oldest planes would usually be phased out first. The newer A320s would probably have better dispatch reliability among other advantages. But of course these present times are not ordinary circumstances. Storing newer DL A320s that run out of heavy check hours could still cost a pretty penny to "pickle" and store, money DL and other airlines don't have much of at this time. So it will be interesting to see how many/if any of the newer DL A320s get retired along with the older ones. Suppose we will find out relatively soon.

n7371f wrote:
The 75D/75H crammed with 199 seats and current oil prices is not as inefficient aircraft as you think. That said, some will still permanently leave the fleet.

You're putting words into my mouth......I never even implied that 752s are inefficient. I'm aware of the good CASM stats that DL 757s have. At least before the pandemic, I understood DL planned to keep their younger 752s for about another decade if not more. IIRC, DL flies the last two 752s built but also has a few 752s roughly 30 years old.

Multiple sources like the Motley Fool indicated earlier that some 752s would be retired this year. So based on these sources, it was the lack of 752 retirements that was a bit surprising, not because they are "inefficient".
 
Lootess
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:20 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Which of these was bought used?

...contrary to A.net lore, that's not modern DL's style.

Ed doesn't seem to like used like Richard did. But then again, up until Covid-19, Ed had a lot of resources (money) that Richard didn't have.

Even then, Richard's penchant for used acquisitions was greattttttttly exaggerated by this (and other) fora.

They found good deals on consolidating two oddball MD80 variants... and people started acting like "Got used aircraft? DL will want 'em!"

Heck, it's been a quarter century since DL last purchased a used widebody for pax service, yet AvGeeks still automatically speculate that whenever AirlineX puts a widebody up for sale, DL will somehow be their go-to default.


Considering Richard was at NW when they compiled new A320 class aircraft and was going A330s, all the talk about his preference for used was overblown. But also he knew the value of the DC-9s, so there is that. It's no secret Anderson/Bastian/Haunstein like a good deal.

Yep, until the now-voided used A350 LATAM purchases it's been a long time since DL ever bought a used wide body. I think it was the 767 from GOL when they got brought into the fold? That was just purely coincidental purchase, wasn't like they were seeking more 767s, just helping a new partner out. Just like the supposed LATAM purchase and slots. Same ordeal!

Had DL not seek a JV, it's possible they would have topped up their current A350 options over time.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:27 pm

Lootess wrote:
I think it was the 767 from GOL when they got brought into the fold?


I though it was four or five 738s from Gol. https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... with-delta
 
Lootess
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:47 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I think it was the 767 from GOL when they got brought into the fold?


I though it was four or five 738s from Gol. https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... with-delta


I meant wide bodies, but yes they did get those 738s later down the line.

It was two 767 leases from GOL when they first made the $100m investment: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-gol-delta/delta-to-invest-100-million-in-brazils-gol-idUSLNE7B602M20111208
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:17 am

CarbonFibre wrote:
Why does the title say A320-200? They don't have any -100s after all.

Northwest never had any A320-100s but the very first twenty one A320s were considered 100s. Airbus did update their first A320 to an A320-200. The most notable difference was no winglet was mounted on the end of the wings which is a flat vertical type which help stop the vortices from rolling off the wing. The A380 has the same winglet. Air France had some. An A320-100 crashed in France that was performing a too low of a fly over and the pilots were not fast enough to increase the power to take off power and the engines could not power up in time to prevent the aircraft from crashing into the trees. There was a joke going around at the time that the aircraft did not have the "chain saw" option.
Also, I do not think that Delta will buy any 737MAX aircraft until it has proven itself to be a reliable and SAFE aircraft to operate. If another 737MAX crashes or has another serious incident the 737MAX aircraft may become grounded and face an early retirement. Boeing should of stopped building the 737 with the completion of the 737NG. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
N649DL
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:15 am

NWAROOSTER wrote:
CarbonFibre wrote:
Why does the title say A320-200? They don't have any -100s after all.


Also, I do not think that Delta will buy any 737MAX aircraft until it has proven itself to be a reliable and SAFE aircraft to operate. If another 737MAX crashes or has another serious incident the 737MAX aircraft may become grounded and face an early retirement. Boeing should of stopped building the 737 with the completion of the 737NG. :old:


I'm not sure if DL is even considering the MAX as they seem to be electing to keep around the newly refurbished 752s which serve the same purpose (even despite COVID-19.)

Should the MAX suffer another crash or round of delays, DL is going to make AA and UA seem like idiots for waiting around for the MAX to return to service (and retiring their 757 fleets instead.)
 
OB1504
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:22 am

N344NW ferried SBD-MIA on Tuesday night and has been at MIA ever since. I put fuel on it for maintenance purposes on Thursday night and was shocked to discover that the airplane was the same age I am. Delta maintains their older aircraft very well.

lightsaber wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
Delta A320 N326US filed MSP-SBD 9AM - 10:33AM as DL9960 tomorrow (July 15). As I commented in the SoCal Boneyard Storage and Activity Thread, Delta are taking 2 A320s out of storage of SBD today and they don't have maintenance facilities at SBD (for Delta) so it's not re-storage or maintenance. At 28.6 years old, is this the first of the next 'wave' of Delta A320 retirements? It was announced today that they would retire a 'portion' of the A320 fleet....(2nd link)

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n326us
https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 1912660993

Delta is going to retire "some" of the A320:

https://news.delta.com/delta-air-lines- ... se-actions

But, surprising to me, the 737-700s are going. All 73Gs from DL.

Lightsaber


How much longer do the 73Gs have left? I just saw one on Thursday.
 
LHA320
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:46 pm

N309US, the oldest A320 in fleet, will return to service! Was ferried to ATL today.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n309us
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
tnair1974
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:18 am

LHA320 wrote:
N309US, the oldest A320 in fleet, will return to service! Was ferried to ATL today.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n309us

Glad to see 309 defeat the scrappers at least one more time. It will reenter revenue service Friday July 24, currently scheduled ATL-DFW.

Are there still stored DL A320s at SBD that arrived earlier this year?

IIRC, all seven DL A320s retired back in 2017 made their last flights to SBD for part out; most if not all these seven birds ferried out of MSP. Such was also the case for N326US last week in what was apparently its final flight (MSP-SBD) but 326 was initially stored at MCI as COVID-19 spread.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:30 am

Yes still several A320s still at SBD. They have been pulling many back into service over the past few weeks.
I have been posting a periodic update in the DL smaller carrier thread.

Haven’t seen the numbers posted for the 10 A320s being retired. Don’t know where they are currently stored.

They have been reactivating the ones in MCI too. MCI isn’t a retirement part out scrap vendor site so those there will eventually have to fly out of MCI. The way they quickly parked the fleet in March April they have aircraft out of position all over the system. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are things like engine changes on/off aircraft scheduled for retirement.

There have also been A319 and A320 that were in SAL for heavy maintenance In the winter that are now benign returned to service.
 
n7371f
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:11 am

320/32R aircraft being pulled for retirement are based on maintenance intervals.
 
tnair1974
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:24 am

Have even DL's youngest A320s received the ESG life extension? If not, perhaps any such planes could be bigger candidates for disposal once they run out of heavy check hours?
 
Lootess
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:20 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
CarbonFibre wrote:
Why does the title say A320-200? They don't have any -100s after all.

Northwest never had any A320-100s but the very first twenty one A320s were considered 100s. Airbus did update their first A320 to an A320-200. The most notable difference was no winglet was mounted on the end of the wings which is a flat vertical type which help stop the vortices from rolling off the wing. The A380 has the same winglet. Air France had some. An A320-100 crashed in France that was performing a too low of a fly over and the pilots were not fast enough to increase the power to take off power and the engines could not power up in time to prevent the aircraft from crashing into the trees. There was a joke going around at the time that the aircraft did not have the "chain saw" option.
Also, I do not think that Delta will buy any 737MAX aircraft until it has proven itself to be a reliable and SAFE aircraft to operate. If another 737MAX crashes or has another serious incident the 737MAX aircraft may become grounded and face an early retirement. Boeing should of stopped building the 737 with the completion of the 737NG. :old:


Ahh yes reminds me of ole days of when people wanted to first blame A320-100 fly-by-wire technology. When it was actually the AF pilots fault for being ill-prepared for the airport and plane configuration. Of course initial blame came up again after the AF A330 Brazil crash.

I also don't think we'll see a MAX on DL property anytime soon, it'd be well after all this mess is beyond us. Wouldn't also surprise me they decide to finally go all-in on with A321neo variants as a result of fleet simplification. Which never used to be an issue with DL, but you can see the strings finally getting pulled with the 73G retirement.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:52 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
Delta A320 N326US filed MSP-SBD 9AM - 10:33AM as DL9960 tomorrow (July 15). As I commented in the SoCal Boneyard Storage and Activity Thread, Delta are taking 2 A320s out of storage of SBD today and they don't have maintenance facilities at SBD (for Delta) so it's not re-storage or maintenance. At 28.6 years old, is this the first of the next 'wave' of Delta A320 retirements? It was announced today that they would retire a 'portion' of the A320 fleet....(2nd link)

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n326us
https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status ... 1912660993

Delta is going to retire "some" of the A320:

https://news.delta.com/delta-air-lines- ... se-actions

[quote="lightsaber"]But, surprising to me, the 737-700s are going. All 73Gs from DL.[/quote

I don't know, I'm not that shocked. 737-700s served a very small role in central America, and with a subfleet of just 10, it was a pretty oddball, and not much harm would be done to DL without them.
Lightsaber
 
N649DL
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:59 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
N361NW, N363NW, and N365NW have been flown out of storage.

Note that these are some of the later-build A320s in the fleet from 1998/1999


Some A320 were delivered as late as 2002-2003 to NW believe it or not.
 
Lootess
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:09 pm

N649DL wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
N361NW, N363NW, and N365NW have been flown out of storage.

Note that these are some of the later-build A320s in the fleet from 1998/1999


Some A320 were delivered as late as 2002-2003 to NW believe it or not.


Yep, and NW didn't shed that many Airbus leases during bankruptcy, probably just ones that were not favorable. Wasn't there like two A319 or A320 deliveries left when they merged with DL? I completely lost track of the delivery schedule of narrowbodies during the time.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:11 pm

Yep I am well aware since my follow goes back over 3 decades to the NW days. Heck, I remember when the A320s were brand new.

There were supposed to be a few more A319 /A320s that got perpetually deferred in the post 9/11 era.
The deferrals sat our there forever I think even up to the time of the DL merger. I think they got finally cancelled when DL placed the order for 10 additional A330s
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:16 pm

And this is also why DL has a big gap in age in their narrow body fleet because of the lost decade, and we are probably facing another one now too.

NW last narrowbody deliveries were In 2002/2003 with the last of the 752, 753, 319, 320.

DL had nothing else then too when they stopped taking 738s and only got the 10 73Gs in 2008.
 
N649DL
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:30 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep I am well aware since my follow goes back over 3 decades to the NW days. Heck, I remember when the A320s were brand new.

There were supposed to be a few more A319 /A320s that got perpetually deferred in the post 9/11 era.
The deferrals sat our there forever I think even up to the time of the DL merger. I think they got finally cancelled when DL placed the order for 10 additional A330s


DL seems to love the A330 (as well as most of the Airbus line) as they sank a ton of money into renovations of the ex-NW fleet and spent more with them on the A350 to ditch the 744. The problem with NW's newer Airbus Narrowbody fleet was the lack of IFE and it was just a very bare bones offering. I had to look up by registration number on the 319/320 because it was hard to tell one of them delivered in the early 1990s vs. the early 2000s. When DL gutted and retrofitted them, that's when I was totally on-board with flying them. Before that, they were *frankly* in bad shape from an interior standpoint. N309NW I did one time on DEN-LGA in 2016 (pre-retrofit) and the thing just rattled and rolled back to NY with a ghetto-ass tray table in F for food that wouldn't stay put. That in particular (N309NW) got a brand new interior and frankly needed it badly.
 
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Boeing757100
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Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:42 pm

Recently, we've been seeing Mad Dogs, A320-200s, and 737-700s narrowbodies being pulled or otherwise downsized. But one thing I'm skeptical about is the 737-800s. They are for the most part 16+ years old, and with a bunch of A321s, and A220s on order, plus the new 737-900ERs, I am pretty questionable about the 738. But then again, they have commonality with the new 739s, and before COVID, I've heard that DL is keeping the 738s till 30 years old.

Any idea?
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:48 pm

Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:53 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
I am pretty questionable about the 738.


You shouldn't be. As you noted, they have commonality with the 130 739s, none of which are more than seven years old (so they're going to be in the fleet for a long time). The 738s fit the mid-size narrowbody gap - important with the sped-up retirement of the MD-90s and as the A320s age out. Plus, they have pretty good range and economics. There's way too big a gap between 130-seat A220-300s and 180-seat 739s.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:19 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.


There are no plans to update the winglets on the -800 at DL. The scimitars became available way too late in the life of the DL-800 fleet and fuel is way cheap right now.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:30 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.



Not that I know of. But they'd certainly look good with the scimitars
 
TheWorm123
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:34 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
FSDan
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:38 pm

TheWorm123 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.


United has retrofitted scimitars onto all their 73Gs, 738s, and 739s.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:50 pm

Rumor is they are next on the chopping block if demand does not show signs of picking up.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:52 pm

We discussed this two weeks ago.....738s are not being removed early. Some frames could stay in storage awhile if pending maintenance checks but 738s are a core part of the fleet.

They would remove more A320 and of course the wildcard of the 717 fleet before going into the 738 fleet.

The only foreseeable time really consider early retirement is around the 24 year mark when at their last HMV interval. They have a few years to even consider that.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:18 am

Don't think that DL would yeet the 738/739s soon. Why don't you think about those 20-y/o A319/A320ceos?
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Cointrin330
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:30 am

It's possible, even likely, DL would put a portion of the 737-800 fleet in long term storage if traffic levels don't pick up, but I don't see DL retiring the 738 fleet. As others have said, they fill a gap between the A220s, A321, and 737-900ERs. The A319/A320 fleets though, I can see being phased out at a much faster rate. They've all been rebuilt inside and so forth, but they're getting up there in age. NW was the first to put the A320 in service in the US (not sure about the A319). The jets were delivered in the 1980s and 1990s I believe, for the most part.
 
randomdude83
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:34 am

chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is they are next on the chopping block if demand does not show signs of picking up.


To us enthusiasts who are checking fleet websites for age of aircraft, the A320s need to be going for sure before the b738 as they are older.

BUT..Delta in the end knows whats best as they have those numbers infront of them and will go for what will drain them less. If the B738 fleet is costly and Boeing is milking delta for parts/support...it'll go no matter how young they are.

I feel like Delta needs to reconsider its orders with airbus specifically. The 250 outstanding orders here.

Might be a good idea to start converting some of those a339 orders and may be a portion of the a321Neo to something that can properly replace the a320s/b738/b717 and the A319.

I see the A223 has the a319 covered. maybe delta should convert half of the A321neo to the A320neo to take over the older CEOS and b738 and maybe half or more of the A339/a350 to more A223s to eventually replace both a319 and b717 and even take some of the Roles that the larger narrow aircraft was filling now.

it seems purchasing more widebody is not a good strategy for the next 5 years. i'd say going after the United B764 might be a good cheap investment though if they feel its good and then retire all B763 and only operate the B764+A330+A350 for now.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 am

According to Planespotters.net, 55 of Delta's B738's are currently in service and 22 are still stored.
 
deltairlines
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:03 am

randomdude83 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is they are next on the chopping block if demand does not show signs of picking up.


To us enthusiasts who are checking fleet websites for age of aircraft, the A320s need to be going for sure before the b738 as they are older.

BUT..Delta in the end knows whats best as they have those numbers infront of them and will go for what will drain them less. If the B738 fleet is costly and Boeing is milking delta for parts/support...it'll go no matter how young they are.

I feel like Delta needs to reconsider its orders with airbus specifically. The 250 outstanding orders here.

Might be a good idea to start converting some of those a339 orders and may be a portion of the a321Neo to something that can properly replace the a320s/b738/b717 and the A319.

I see the A223 has the a319 covered. maybe delta should convert half of the A321neo to the A320neo to take over the older CEOS and b738 and maybe half or more of the A339/a350 to more A223s to eventually replace both a319 and b717 and even take some of the Roles that the larger narrow aircraft was filling now.

it seems purchasing more widebody is not a good strategy for the next 5 years. i'd say going after the United B764 might be a good cheap investment though if they feel its good and then retire all B763 and only operate the B764+A330+A350 for now.


Thing is that the additional marginal costs of the A321neo over the A320neo are such that you only need a handful of passengers to cover it. There's no extra FA to account for, etc. I think if the 737-900ER and the current specs of the A321ceo were out when the Big 6 were buying their current A319/A320/737-7/737-8s in the mid-to-late 1990s, we'd see a lot more of those.

As for Delta getting UA's 767-400s, that's a pipe dream. They're a niche fleet in the Delta fleet, and the airplane has some performance limitations that hurt it doing Deep South America and Europe to ATL routes. It's sweet spot is really NYC/BOS-Europe, which is limited in markets. There's no need for even more of this poor-performing aircraft. The 767-300s are largely paid off for by now so can stick around for a while; it helps that from a staffing perspective, the -300s pilots can also fly 757s while the 767-400s have their own pilot group.

In the mid-term, I see the DL fleet being A220, A320 group, A330, A350, 717, 737, 757/767-300.
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:09 am

FSDan wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.


United has retrofitted scimitars onto all their 73Gs, 738s, and 739s.

Wonderful thank you :)
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
airboeingbus
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:20 am

Ed Bastian In a live interview with the Washington Post today said delta's future NB fleet will be 220 321 and 739.
 
Gillbilly
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:22 am

Not the most relevant thing but I've been in a few DL738s lately and the IFE screens were popping out of the seat backs on all those flights. They seem in need of an upgrade.
 
ethernal
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:25 am

randomdude83 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is they are next on the chopping block if demand does not show signs of picking up.


To us enthusiasts who are checking fleet websites for age of aircraft, the A320s need to be going for sure before the b738 as they are older.

BUT..Delta in the end knows whats best as they have those numbers infront of them and will go for what will drain them less. If the B738 fleet is costly and Boeing is milking delta for parts/support...it'll go no matter how young they are.

I feel like Delta needs to reconsider its orders with airbus specifically. The 250 outstanding orders here.

Might be a good idea to start converting some of those a339 orders and may be a portion of the a321Neo to something that can properly replace the a320s/b738/b717 and the A319.

I see the A223 has the a319 covered. maybe delta should convert half of the A321neo to the A320neo to take over the older CEOS and b738 and maybe half or more of the A339/a350 to more A223s to eventually replace both a319 and b717 and even take some of the Roles that the larger narrow aircraft was filling now.

it seems purchasing more widebody is not a good strategy for the next 5 years. i'd say going after the United B764 might be a good cheap investment though if they feel its good and then retire all B763 and only operate the B764+A330+A350 for now.



I doubt that Delta will look at downgauging their current order book. Delta wants to buy the largest variant of a family because it provides significantly superior CASM. Ignoring acquisition costs (which Delta can negotiate down given their own size, meaning they pay little premium for an A321 vs. an A320), an A321neo costs all of 5-7% more per trip than an A320neo but fits 20-25% more passengers.

Those are practically free seats. The window for which a 160 seat A320 makes sense but an A321 doesn't is very, very small. This is doubly true because Delta's hub-and-spoke model (as opposed to, say, an ULCC P2P model) provides opportunities to do clever yield management across different city-pairs. If I only need to cover 5-7% of extra cost for 32 additional seats, Delta can nearly give those away on select city-pairs to funnel traffic away that might otherwise go to an ULCC and still end with more net profit than if they had flown only an A320.

Delta has managed to see very high domestic load factors (88-90%) despite its significant upgauging over the past decade. Delta (and other airline)'s mastery of yield / revenue management makes this a viable strategy for fleets/networks as large as Delta's.

This isn't to say that there is no need for a 160-seater, but the idea that they need more of those relative to their current fleet (even accounting for A320 retirements) is questionable. Delta has time in this low-demand market to milk those existing owned airframes for a long time. They might consider a purchase for a smaller narrowbody in the future, but certainly not now. If Delta fleet planners had their way, they will probably want 739s, A321s, and then the full breadth of the A220 family (including the hypothetical A225).
 
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AC853
Posts: 90
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:31 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.

I believe Westjet changed their entire -800 to Scimitars.
 
randomdude83
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:52 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:39 am

deltairlines wrote:
randomdude83 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Rumor is they are next on the chopping block if demand does not show signs of picking up.


To us enthusiasts who are checking fleet websites for age of aircraft, the A320s need to be going for sure before the b738 as they are older.

BUT..Delta in the end knows whats best as they have those numbers infront of them and will go for what will drain them less. If the B738 fleet is costly and Boeing is milking delta for parts/support...it'll go no matter how young they are.

I feel like Delta needs to reconsider its orders with airbus specifically. The 250 outstanding orders here.

Might be a good idea to start converting some of those a339 orders and may be a portion of the a321Neo to something that can properly replace the a320s/b738/b717 and the A319.

I see the A223 has the a319 covered. maybe delta should convert half of the A321neo to the A320neo to take over the older CEOS and b738 and maybe half or more of the A339/a350 to more A223s to eventually replace both a319 and b717 and even take some of the Roles that the larger narrow aircraft was filling now.

it seems purchasing more widebody is not a good strategy for the next 5 years. i'd say going after the United B764 might be a good cheap investment though if they feel its good and then retire all B763 and only operate the B764+A330+A350 for now.


Thing is that the additional marginal costs of the A321neo over the A320neo are such that you only need a handful of passengers to cover it. There's no extra FA to account for, etc. I think if the 737-900ER and the current specs of the A321ceo were out when the Big 6 were buying their current A319/A320/737-7/737-8s in the mid-to-late 1990s, we'd see a lot more of those.

As for Delta getting UA's 767-400s, that's a pipe dream. They're a niche fleet in the Delta fleet, and the airplane has some performance limitations that hurt it doing Deep South America and Europe to ATL routes. It's sweet spot is really NYC/BOS-Europe, which is limited in markets. There's no need for even more of this poor-performing aircraft. The 767-300s are largely paid off for by now so can stick around for a while; it helps that from a staffing perspective, the -300s pilots can also fly 757s while the 767-400s have their own pilot group.

In the mid-term, I see the DL fleet being A220, A320 group, A330, A350, 717, 737, 757/767-300.


I don't disagree with your thinking but it made sense pre Covid era. After all, that was the delta's strategy.

The Passenger Yield is going to be questionable for the next few years and won't get to 2019 levels for a while even post vaccine. in that case is abusing larger aircraft the way delta did a good operation decision?

You have to also take into account the recession we're in and how long it'll take for us to recover from that. Delta can then rely on its operational Data from the 2008 recession and the 911 recession that we faced. thats probably a good approximate of when things will start getting back to normal. That in it self is a good 5 years or longer.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20016
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Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:41 am

airboeingbus wrote:
Ed Bastian In a live interview with the Washington Post today said delta's future NB fleet will be 220 321 and 739.

Then the 738s would be parked as the A320s were.

If things stay bad, the A320 and 738 fleet are at risk. As are A321 deliveries.

Some planes are worth storing, some are not. As the large 739 fleet would remain, it would be feasible to pull them out if the desert in future years.

Resale value is too low. The contract with CFM on engine maintenance helps.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1398
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:48 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.


WN has them on some of their 73Gs as well as the majority (if not all) of the 738s. AS has them on their 738s and 739s, maybe all of them. AM, CM, the list is pretty big.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:10 am

AS is full SSW on its 738, 739 fleet minus the couple of very early build 739 that can't have winglets period.

ericm2031 wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.

How many other airlines have retrofitted scimitars onto NG 737’s? Only ones I know of personally are TUI UK.


WN has them on some of their 73Gs as well as the majority (if not all) of the 738s. AS has them on their 738s and 739s, maybe all of them. AM, CM, the list is pretty big.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:17 am

You're referring to the batch of 738's that had seatback screens installed back in the early 2000's. It's first-generation Panasonic equipment with arm rest controls and smaller, non-HD screens. And, yes, based on my flying these planes are long in the tooth regarding the IFE.

Gillbilly wrote:
Not the most relevant thing but I've been in a few DL738s lately and the IFE screens were popping out of the seat backs on all those flights. They seem in need of an upgrade.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:42 pm

B757Forever wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just to add to the question, do any 738s have the schimitar winglets? I know the 739s have them but I don’t think I’ve seen any on a 738.


There are no plans to update the winglets on the -800 at DL. The scimitars became available way too late in the life of the DL-800 fleet and fuel is way cheap right now.

Thanks for the info 767.
 
ehaase
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:06 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:01 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if Delta defers the start of deliveries of 321neos and remaining 339's and 359's (other than needed to replace 777's) until 2024 to 2025. 321neos would then start replacing 757's, 320's and 738's. Don't know about the remaining 321ceo's still on order.
 
777Mech
Posts: 971
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:08 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
Recently, we've been seeing Mad Dogs, A320-200s, and 737-700s narrowbodies being pulled or otherwise downsized. But one thing I'm skeptical about is the 737-800s. They are for the most part 16+ years old, and with a bunch of A321s, and A220s on order, plus the new 737-900ERs, I am pretty questionable about the 738. But then again, they have commonality with the new 739s, and before COVID, I've heard that DL is keeping the 738s till 30 years old.

Any idea?


I do think some of the 738s will go. They interiors will need updating to the new marketing standards, and numerous older ones are coming due for a heavy check. Probably 20 or so frames will end up being withdrawn from use.
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Any idea of the fate of Delta's 738's?

Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:40 am

Yes. Some 738s will be getting close to heavy check time, and in this environment that means they will get parked indefinitely. Not leave the fleet. No reason to spend serious money on those now when there are A321s/739s that can take their place easily.

Gillbilly wrote:
Not the most relevant thing but I've been in a few DL738s lately and the IFE screens were popping out of the seat backs on all those flights. They seem in need of an upgrade.


Just about all the A320s are in way better interior shape than the 738s.
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:53 am

N649DL wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep I am well aware since my follow goes back over 3 decades to the NW days. Heck, I remember when the A320s were brand new.

There were supposed to be a few more A319 /A320s that got perpetually deferred in the post 9/11 era.
The deferrals sat our there forever I think even up to the time of the DL merger. I think they got finally cancelled when DL placed the order for 10 additional A330s


DL seems to love the A330 (as well as most of the Airbus line) as they sank a ton of money into renovations of the ex-NW fleet and spent more with them on the A350 to ditch the 744. The problem with NW's newer Airbus Narrowbody fleet was the lack of IFE and it was just a very bare bones offering. I had to look up by registration number on the 319/320 because it was hard to tell one of them delivered in the early 1990s vs. the early 2000s. When DL gutted and retrofitted them, that's when I was totally on-board with flying them. Before that, they were *frankly* in bad shape from an interior standpoint. N309NW I did one time on DEN-LGA in 2016 (pre-retrofit) and the thing just rattled and rolled back to NY with a ghetto-ass tray table in F for food that wouldn't stay put. That in particular (N309NW) got a brand new interior and frankly needed it badly.
.

Bare bones was pre-merger NW serving first class snacks out of white cardboard boxes, and no snacks to those in the back. Pepsi products and done.

The difference to a customer felt like a Mr. Clean eraser actually touched the A320 PSUs every few days versus twice a year with NW.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1827
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:35 am

Hmm...the Pepsi argument is worthless so congratulations on that. Maybe if NW served RC Cola you might've had an opening.

As a million miler on NW I don't recall white boxes in first class. Maybe I've forgotten some things.

I do vividly remembering flying bankrupt Delta at the same time and getting no service except a drink in a plastic cup in first class on routes like ATL-TUS/DEN with nothing in the back. Oh but it was Coke!

Each airline took on their Ch 11 filings in different ways and focused on different elements. NW was hell bent on maintaining its operational excellence despite firing thousands of AMFA mechanics. Yes, Doug S okayed cut backs on deep aircraft cleaning. Delta focused on branding, like always, and making sure every plane had the same seat cover - while its service reliability went to hell.

I'm summarizing but the point is each airline had different focuses.

And now as a multi-million miler for DL I fondly miss NWA's operational acumen and the technological superior website and operations, especially during IROPS. To this day DAL is a farce compared to NWA of a decade ago with technology and passenger facing website/app capabilities. NW also awarded its top level FF, Platinum, with far more perks than DAL ever did - in part because of an understanding NW wasn't a lavish inflight product. The moment DAL grabbed ahold of WorldPerks, the benefits were decimated.

And don't forget the deal with Continental that afforded NWA Elite's the same standing on CO, which was a better domestic soft product.

But the Pepsi...

Lootess wrote:
N649DL wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yep I am well aware since my follow goes back over 3 decades to the NW days. Heck, I remember when the A320s were brand new.

There were supposed to be a few more A319 /A320s that got perpetually deferred in the post 9/11 era.
The deferrals sat our there forever I think even up to the time of the DL merger. I think they got finally cancelled when DL placed the order for 10 additional A330s


DL seems to love the A330 (as well as most of the Airbus line) as they sank a ton of money into renovations of the ex-NW fleet and spent more with them on the A350 to ditch the 744. The problem with NW's newer Airbus Narrowbody fleet was the lack of IFE and it was just a very bare bones offering. I had to look up by registration number on the 319/320 because it was hard to tell one of them delivered in the early 1990s vs. the early 2000s. When DL gutted and retrofitted them, that's when I was totally on-board with flying them. Before that, they were *frankly* in bad shape from an interior standpoint. N309NW I did one time on DEN-LGA in 2016 (pre-retrofit) and the thing just rattled and rolled back to NY with a ghetto-ass tray table in F for food that wouldn't stay put. That in particular (N309NW) got a brand new interior and frankly needed it badly.
.

Bare bones was pre-merger NW serving first class snacks out of white cardboard boxes, and no snacks to those in the back. Pepsi products and done.

The difference to a customer felt like a Mr. Clean eraser actually touched the A320 PSUs every few days versus twice a year with NW.
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