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timf
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:08 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
Sorry if this has been noted before (couldn't find it anyway), but looks like DL has posted the seat map of the A223, at least on the app. Pretty generous Comfort+ layout with 6 rows / 30 seats in this configuration given F remains at 3 rows / 12 seats.

I'm not seeing this, at least not on the iPhone app or website. What's the total seat count?
 
panamair
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:31 pm

timf wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
Sorry if this has been noted before (couldn't find it anyway), but looks like DL has posted the seat map of the A223, at least on the app. Pretty generous Comfort+ layout with 6 rows / 30 seats in this configuration given F remains at 3 rows / 12 seats.

I'm not seeing this, at least not on the iPhone app or website. What's the total seat count?


I see it on the FlyDelta app: 12/30/88; total of 130 seats, pretty much close to the A319 (132 seats currently at 12/18/102).
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:00 pm

Interesting so at least in the near-future, the configurations at the lower end of the fleet (below)
I am guessing that the high number of Comfort+ seats is due to the number of rows they could fit forward of the Exit Row. They probably would've left it at 20 or 25 but probably had to go with 30 to get the seat pitch right. Looks like there is one from of main cabin in front of the exit row.

CR9: 12 / 20 / 44 = 76
E75: 12 / 20 / 44 = 76
221: 12 / 15 / 82 = 109
717: 12 / 20 / 78 = 110
73G: 12 / 18 / 94 = 124 (removing from fleet)
223: 12 / 30 / 88 = 130
319: 12 / 18 / 102 = 132
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:57 pm

The B717 fleet is going to be interesting. DL only owns 3 of the 91 B717s they roster. However, at the same time, I could see Australian carriers having a good use for them...as F70/F100 replacements, especially on FIFO and regional flying too small for 737s (Australia is currently the last western country with a Fokker fleet of scale, with approximately 60 F70/F100 rostered). The major airlines with them Down Under are QQ and QF (Q-Link). If a deal could be reached with them, that could provide a second life for them...although it would likely also mean the end of the line for the Fokker fleet. An MRO in Christchurch would then be within the B717's range from SYD.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:37 pm

I had been posting updates in the "DL to be a smaller carrier thread" but I think it got lost in all the other noise.
I've been tracking movements to/from storage facilities. The reactivations, as expected as essentially stopped since the beginning of August.
Now, its mostly retirements and maintenance repositions.

Note - not a typo, but a MD90 reposition scheduled for Wednesday QRO-BYH. There is still 1 more remaining down there, and supposedly 1 in MSP still.

Here is the activity from last week:
Mon 8/10:
B73G MCI-SBD (N309DE) (leaving storage at MCI, to be removed from service at SBD)

Tue 8/11:
B73G MWH-SBD (N306DQ) (leaving storage at MWH, to be removed from service at SBD)

Wed 8/12:
None

Thu 8/13:
None

Fri 8/14:
B73G MWH-SBD (N305DQ) (leaving storage at MWH, to be removed from service at SBD)

Sat 8/15:
None

Sun 8/16:
B73G MCI-SBD (N310DQ) (leaving storage at MCI, to be removed from service at SBD)

---
Planned for this week (so far):

Mon 8/17:
None

Tue: 8/18:
None

Wed: 8/19:
MD90 QRO-BYH (N963DN) (leaving storage/maintenance at QRO, to be stored/scrapped at BYH)
B752 VCV-QRO (N706TW) (leaving storage at VCV going to QRO for storage/pending maintenance)
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:16 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Interesting so at least in the near-future, the configurations at the lower end of the fleet (below)
I am guessing that the high number of Comfort+ seats is due to the number of rows they could fit forward of the Exit Row. They probably would've left it at 20 or 25 but probably had to go with 30 to get the seat pitch right. Looks like there is one from of main cabin in front of the exit row.

CR9: 12 / 20 / 44 = 76
E75: 12 / 20 / 44 = 76
221: 12 / 15 / 82 = 109
717: 12 / 20 / 78 = 110
73G: 12 / 18 / 94 = 124 (removing from fleet)
223: 12 / 30 / 88 = 130
319: 12 / 18 / 102 = 132

I’m a little surprised at how few there are in C+ on the 221. Looking at the seat map, I can only assume exit row issue? Can’t really give the two rows between C+ and exit row more legroom without impeding exit access?
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:09 pm

The next A221 with MSN 50051 which was to have been delivered in March has had 2 test flights in the past two days. Before that, it last flew on March 10.
Is Delta preparing for delivery plans on their A220 backlog?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:10 pm

IIRC, Delta hasn't updated 2020 delivery commitments with an SEC filing. It has talked about cutting capital spending but that certainly lacks the specificity of how many aircraft of what type are committed when.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta's B712's

Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:39 pm

BusBlitz wrote:
I've always thought the 717s were very beautiful and I read this article: https://onemileatatime.com/delta-717/


Is DL still planning on installing AVOD on the 717s? They have 45 active right now.

Interesting how there are more 757s active right now (66) versus the 738 (61.)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:08 pm

Did you just read the lengthy discussion about the status of the 717 fleet on the page prior? Your answer is in there.

There is no decision yet either way on the longevity of the 717 fleet beyond 2022.
Investment in the fleet and lease renewals would be required, part of that investment is new seats to comply with an AD, of which may (or may not have AVOD).
 
T4thH
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:00 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
The next A221 with MSN 50051 which was to have been delivered in March has had 2 test flights in the past two days. Before that, it last flew on March 10.
Is Delta preparing for delivery plans on their A220 backlog?


Yes, I have seen the same (and a little bit more). I was just thinking about to start a new thread, but decided not to do this. Now I see, you have identified the same.

Delta has had stopped taking up any planes from Airbus since Mar-2020, even from planes build in Mobile (while other US airlines have still taken up narrowbodies from Airbus in Mobile, Hamburg in Germany and Toulouse in France).

All these planes performed few test flights and than were parked only and performed once or two times monthly some engine runs and taxi drives.

This has now changed:
A220:
A220-100: MSN 50051, two test flights on 17/18-Aug-2020 after 5 month gap (last test flight before on Mar-10).
https://aibfamily.flights/A220/50051

Additional some new build A220 are active performing test flights in Mobile and Montreal.
(A220-100, 50055 and A220-300, 55075) The first build A220-300 55070 is now only performing taxi runs and engine tests.

A320 family (Mobile):
A321-211SL, MSN 9538, fifth test flight on 18-Aug-2020 (after two month gap)
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/9538
A321-211SL, MSN 10009, after 3 month gap after test flight one (on 29-May), now three test flights on 03/06/10-Aug-2020.
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/10009

>>>>>
Also a widebody has performed now a test flight after prolonged time (also I do not expect, that Delta will take up any wb in next time).
A330-941, MSN 1853, fifth flight after 3 month gap on 03-Aug.
https://aibfamily.flights/A330/1953

Additional some new build wb are performing some test flights, but as said, I will be surprised, when Delta will take up any wb in next time.

Conclusion -> seems we will see some narrowbodies, who will be taken up by Delta in next days/weeks.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:06 pm

Well info has been posted in another thread that A350's 3514&15 should be delivered through Narita in the coming weeks

T4thH wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
The next A221 with MSN 50051 which was to have been delivered in March has had 2 test flights in the past two days. Before that, it last flew on March 10.
Is Delta preparing for delivery plans on their A220 backlog?


Yes, I have seen the same (and a little bit more). I was just thinking about to start a new thread, but decided not to do this. Now I see, you have identified the same.

Delta has had stopped taking up any planes from Airbus since Mar-2020, even from planes build in Mobile (while other US airlines have still taken up narrowbodies from Airbus in Mobile, Hamburg in Germany and Toulouse in France).

All these planes performed few test flights and than were parked only and performed once or two times monthly some engine runs and taxi drives.

This has now changed:
A220:
A220-100: MSN 50051, two test flights on 17/18-Aug-2020 after 5 month gap (last test flight before on Mar-10).
https://aibfamily.flights/A220/50051

Additional some new build A220 are active performing test flights in Mobile and Montreal.
(A220-100, 50055 and A220-300, 55075) The first build A220-300 55070 is now only performing taxi runs and engine tests.

A320 family (Mobile):
A321-211SL, MSN 9538, fifth test flight on 18-Aug-2020 (after two month gap)
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/9538
A321-211SL, MSN 10009, after 3 month gap after test flight one (on 29-May), now three test flights on 03/06/10-Aug-2020.
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/10009

>>>>>
Also a widebody has performed now a test flight after prolonged time (also I do not expect, that Delta will take up any wb in next time).
A330-941, MSN 1853, fifth flight after 3 month gap on 03-Aug.
https://aibfamily.flights/A330/1953

Additional some new build wb are performing some test flights, but as said, I will be surprised, when Delta will take up any wb in next time.

Conclusion -> seems we will see some narrowbodies, who will be taken up by Delta in next days/weeks.
 
T4thH
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:17 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
Well info has been posted in another thread that A350's 3514&15 should be delivered through Narita in the coming weeks

T4thH wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:
The next A221 with MSN 50051 which was to have been delivered in March has had 2 test flights in the past two days. Before that, it last flew on March 10.
Is Delta preparing for delivery plans on their A220 backlog?


Yes, I have seen the same (and a little bit more). I was just thinking about to start a new thread, but decided not to do this. Now I see, you have identified the same.

Delta has had stopped taking up any planes from Airbus since Mar-2020, even from planes build in Mobile (while other US airlines have still taken up narrowbodies from Airbus in Mobile, Hamburg in Germany and Toulouse in France).

All these planes performed few test flights and than were parked only and performed once or two times monthly some engine runs and taxi drives.

This has now changed:
A220:
A220-100: MSN 50051, two test flights on 17/18-Aug-2020 after 5 month gap (last test flight before on Mar-10).
https://aibfamily.flights/A220/50051

Additional some new build A220 are active performing test flights in Mobile and Montreal.
(A220-100, 50055 and A220-300, 55075) The first build A220-300 55070 is now only performing taxi runs and engine tests.

A320 family (Mobile):
A321-211SL, MSN 9538, fifth test flight on 18-Aug-2020 (after two month gap)
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/9538
A321-211SL, MSN 10009, after 3 month gap after test flight one (on 29-May), now three test flights on 03/06/10-Aug-2020.
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/10009

>>>>>
Also a widebody has performed now a test flight after prolonged time (also I do not expect, that Delta will take up any wb in next time).
A330-941, MSN 1853, fifth flight after 3 month gap on 03-Aug.
https://aibfamily.flights/A330/1953

Additional some new build wb are performing some test flights, but as said, I will be surprised, when Delta will take up any wb in next time.

Conclusion -> seems we will see some narrowbodies, who will be taken up by Delta in next days/weeks.

I have just seen, Delta A350-941, MSN 395, has performed the fifth flight on 13-Aug-2020. This is stated as "customer acceptance flight".
https://aibfamily.flights/A350/395
After last jet taken up on 05-Mar-2020, Delta will now take up planes again (after a 5 month gap).

There shall be now 12 planes parked at Airbus facilities, after one or two additional test flights ready to be taken up by Delta.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:34 pm

Are these 2 new Airbus A321 delivery flight both scheduled for today BFM-MSP?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9936
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9937
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:38 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Are these 2 new Airbus A321 delivery flight both scheduled for today BFM-MSP?
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9936
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9937

The last A321 delivered in March went from BFM to MSP, so logically yes these are two new deliveries.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:49 pm

Yep....they are new delivery A321s

DAL9936 is N103DY / 1003
DAL9937 is N104DN / 1004
 
gonnagetbumpy
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:08 pm

Does anyone know when the first a220-300 is set to come on property?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:48 pm

The Delta narrowbody options are facinating. We know about the existing A321CEO and A321NEO orders as well as A220.

Sadly, the recovery is looking slower than even pessimistic me predicted a few months ago. This means MD-89/90 replacement is further out.

This also puts the 717 in play due to the seats. Delta only has 8 to 10 months to decide and sign contracts on that decision. Decisions like this take 3+ months to get bids and months of negotiations. I'm not saying Delta might not just park them, but an informed decision must be made.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
n515cr
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:11 pm

 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:56 pm

In terms of the MD-88/90 replacements: I think the A220 and A321 + the gradual passenger-demand recovery ARE the mad dog replacements. Delta's "smaller airline" stance takes into account those retirements IMO.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:15 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
In terms of the MD-88/90 replacements: I think the A220 and A321 + the gradual passenger-demand recovery ARE the mad dog replacements. Delta's "smaller airline" stance takes into account those retirements IMO.


Maybe, but that still leaves them with a need for A320, 717 and early 738 replacements all within about five years.
 
n515cr
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:32 pm

1004 is airborne: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n104dn
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
In terms of the MD-88/90 replacements: I think the A220 and A321 + the gradual passenger-demand recovery ARE the mad dog replacements. Delta's "smaller airline" stance takes into account those retirements IMO.


Maybe, but that still leaves them with a need for A320, 717 and early 738 replacements all within about five years.

The next few years are a great time to buy. Only the 717 must be decided soon. It could be replacement, partial fleet replacement (future options), partial fleet refurbishment, or whole fleet refurbishment.

The 738s can be run much longer. The limit of Validity is 110,000 flight cycles or 125,000 flight hours.

Looking up Delta's oldest 738, N371DA, LN115, it had a year ago only 26,293 flight cycles and 63,138 flight hours. There is plenty of life left. 1998 isn't that old to retire in a few years.
https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

For the A320, N309US is the oldest. 39,983 flight cycles and 87,589 flight hours as of last October. 1990 is 8 years earlier than the oldest 738...

Now, 737s have been used over 85,000 flight cycles and A320s have been used towards the limit of Validity flight cycles (60,000FC). In this environment, I would expect more use. The A320 looks to have gone through a heavy maintenance visit (HMV) in February 2018 (based off all the repairs then from that FAA link).

So the A320s could start to be replaced in 5 years when I assume the next HMV is due. There isn't enough certified life left to perform another HMV.

The 738s have much life left, I see at least one, if not two, HMVs left.

It will depend on the travel demand.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:47 pm

I would imagine they will keep the 738s as long as possible, close to 30 years due to the massive debt and capex constraints over the next decade. No reason to pull down earlier due the commonality with the young 739s and massive global support for 737NGs. Definitely have 1-2 HMVs left.

A320s that are coming due for their final HMV in the next few years may be retirement candidates ( haven’t seen the tail numbers for the 10 leaving this year).
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
In terms of the MD-88/90 replacements: I think the A220 and A321 + the gradual passenger-demand recovery ARE the mad dog replacements. Delta's "smaller airline" stance takes into account those retirements IMO.


Maybe, but that still leaves them with a need for A320, 717 and early 738 replacements all within about five years.


How about:

A220-200 for the 717.

A220-300 for some A320.

A321 and FUTURE A220-500 for the rest: 738, Additional 320s and 757.

?
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:46 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I would imagine they will keep the 738s as long as possible, close to 30 years due to the massive debt and capex constraints over the next decade. No reason to pull down earlier due the commonality with the young 739s and massive global support for 737NGs. Definitely have 1-2 HMVs left.

A320s that are coming due for their final HMV in the next few years may be retirement candidates ( haven’t seen the tail numbers for the 10 leaving this year).


I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.
 
ehaase
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:11 am

TYWoolman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
In terms of the MD-88/90 replacements: I think the A220 and A321 + the gradual passenger-demand recovery ARE the mad dog replacements. Delta's "smaller airline" stance takes into account those retirements IMO.


Maybe, but that still leaves them with a need for A320, 717 and early 738 replacements all within about five years.


How about:

A220-200 for the 717.

A220-300 for some A320.

A321 and FUTURE A220-500 for the rest: 738, Additional 320s and 757.

?


Except 717's seem to be mostly used on flights from Atlanta to small/mid-size Southern cities. Wouldn't using A220's on those routes be a waste?
 
n515cr
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:48 am

777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I would imagine they will keep the 738s as long as possible, close to 30 years due to the massive debt and capex constraints over the next decade. No reason to pull down earlier due the commonality with the young 739s and massive global support for 737NGs. Definitely have 1-2 HMVs left.

A320s that are coming due for their final HMV in the next few years may be retirement candidates ( haven’t seen the tail numbers for the 10 leaving this year).


I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:13 am

ehaase wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Maybe, but that still leaves them with a need for A320, 717 and early 738 replacements all within about five years.


How about:

A220-200 for the 717.

A220-300 for some A320.

A321 and FUTURE A220-500 for the rest: 738, Additional 320s and 757.

?


Except 717's seem to be mostly used on flights from Atlanta to small/mid-size Southern cities. Wouldn't using A220's on those routes be a waste?

The GTFs should have a lower maintenance cost per cycle (flight) and lower fuel burn in climb; the climb fuel burn is one of the major advantages of a GTF over a conventional engine, because they maintain a much higher pressure ration thanks to the faster spinning low turbine and low compressor (much better efficiency than an old school low spool in a two spool engine such as the BR715, but not as good as a triple spool).

The A221 and A223 can do much more range, but that doesn't mean they aren't excellent at DL style shorter runs. It is Island hopping quick turns where they have an issue (recall, HA will average up to 17 cycles per day on their 717s, DL gives much more time for the turn).

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:26 am

lightsaber wrote:
ehaase wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

How about:

A220-200 for the 717.

A220-300 for some A320.

A321 and FUTURE A220-500 for the rest: 738, Additional 320s and 757.

?


Except 717's seem to be mostly used on flights from Atlanta to small/mid-size Southern cities. Wouldn't using A220's on those routes be a waste?

The GTFs should have a lower maintenance cost per cycle (flight) and lower fuel burn in climb; the climb fuel burn is one of the major advantages of a GTF over a conventional engine, because they maintain a much higher pressure ration thanks to the faster spinning low turbine and low compressor (much better efficiency than an old school low spool in a two spool engine such as the BR715, but not as good as a triple spool).

The A221 and A223 can do much more range, but that doesn't mean they aren't excellent at DL style shorter runs. It is Island hopping quick turns where they have an issue (recall, HA will average up to 17 cycles per day on their 717s, DL gives much more time for the turn).

Lightsaber

You’d also factor in economies of scale with focusing on all A220 rather than a split 220/717 operation. Separate pilots, sims, another part pool, etc. Based off the 777 going, and the 737-700 sub fleet, the 717 seems to be the next in line for picking especially in light of the seat AD getting closer to game time.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:26 am

n515cr wrote:
777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I would imagine they will keep the 738s as long as possible, close to 30 years due to the massive debt and capex constraints over the next decade. No reason to pull down earlier due the commonality with the young 739s and massive global support for 737NGs. Definitely have 1-2 HMVs left.

A320s that are coming due for their final HMV in the next few years may be retirement candidates ( haven’t seen the tail numbers for the 10 leaving this year).


I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


Sorry! I should have phrased is as has or will be wfu
 
777luver
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:31 am

Any word on the 757 fleet? Are they sticking around?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:33 am

TYWoolman wrote:
How about:

A220-200 for the 717.

FUTURE A220-500 for the rest: 738, Additional 320s and 757.



You're proposing a long-term fleet plan built around two aircraft which not only don't exist, but for which launch hasn't even been committed.

My thinking isn't so narrow that an aircraft of xxx seats needs to be replaced with xxx +/- 10 seats (see all the angst about DL 763 replacements over the last five years), nor that x,xxx range needs to be replaced with x,xxx +/- 200 nm range, but, in the whole, the fleet needs to support the planned route/marketing needs.

I really don't think there's much likelihood of a DL fleet of ~150 A220s in ~2027: Airbus says it doesn't make money on them (and won't until some vague date fairly far into the future). Airbus hasn't announced a capacity plan to support significantly higher sales; it isn't going to make the capacity investments until there's a good plan to make $ per unit.

Lastly, I am curious to the factors that made WN and AA want to retire their early NGs at the ~20 year mark. (It's a plan delayed by AA but which WN has committed to execute even with MAX delivery shortfalls.) It doesn't give me confidence that DL's 738s will fly to 30.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:47 pm

Yeah good point about AA and WN regarding their early build NGs. Curious of those reasons are still applicable or whether the business case changes now with the debt load and capex constraints going forward.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:38 am

n515cr wrote:
777Mech wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I would imagine they will keep the 738s as long as possible, close to 30 years due to the massive debt and capex constraints over the next decade. No reason to pull down earlier due the commonality with the young 739s and massive global support for 737NGs. Definitely have 1-2 HMVs left.

A320s that are coming due for their final HMV in the next few years may be retirement candidates ( haven’t seen the tail numbers for the 10 leaving this year).


I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


3221 will soldier on. 3217, 3222-3230 have been permanently wfu. I'm not sure how 3221 got spared, but I'll take it.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:02 am

Thanks, likely has to do with where either airframe or engines are at in their heavy maintenance cycle.

A few are already at SBD but most are at MCI or BMH which aren’t scrapping / part out facilities so I assume they will eventually ferry to an end of life disposal facility eventually.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:08 am

777luver wrote:
Any word on the 757 fleet? Are they sticking around?

Nothing has been official decided upon relating to the 757 fleet.

I would not anticipate any big decisions on a fleet wide scale but it’s possible of some frame specific retirement pending heavy maintenance, particularly in the 75D subfleet.

Obviously it’s a new world, but the longevity of the various 757 subfleets is going to be tied to the revised A321Neo delivery schedule.

Every fleet type except for A220, B739, A321, A339, A350 is subject to review either wholesale or frame-specific review.
 
n515cr
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:56 pm

777Mech wrote:
n515cr wrote:
777Mech wrote:

I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


3221 will soldier on. 3217, 3222-3230 have been permanently wfu. I'm not sure how 3221 got spared, but I'll take it.


Noted, thanks!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:24 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Every fleet type except for A220, B739, A321, A339, A350 is subject to review either wholesale or frame-specific review.

For Delta, this sums it up. Every other type in the fleet wil, based on when a HMV is required age & condition, be subject to review.

This is a new world.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
tnair1974
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:49 pm

777Mech wrote:
n515cr wrote:
777Mech wrote:

I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


3221 will soldier on. 3217, 3222-3230 have been permanently wfu. I'm not sure how 3221 got spared, but I'll take it.

Thanks. At least two DL A320s, N325US and N326US, are already at SBD where they presumably(?) will be scrapped. Anyway, the seven DL A320s retired in 2017 are being/have been parted out at SBD.

At least N309US, the oldest DL A320 (a 1992 bird), escaped the scrappers at least one more time when it recently returned to service.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:45 am

3221 was in the middle of a heavy down in San Salvador when the pandemic hit. No reason to park a fresh, like new bird:-)

777Mech wrote:
n515cr wrote:
777Mech wrote:

I'll have to double check, but I'm 99% sure it's 3220-3230 that have been permanently wfu.


3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


3221 will soldier on. 3217, 3222-3230 have been permanently wfu. I'm not sure how 3221 got spared, but I'll take it.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:57 am

With the most recent schedule update for October, DL is bringing a small amount of 717 flying back to DTW. The 717s have been absent since May went the remaining active fleet was pulled down to ATL to backfill MD88 MD90 retirements.

Returning on routes like DTW - BNA, RDU, STL, PHL.

The go forward plan is supposedly 80/20 split of 717 flying between ATL & DTW.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:21 am

n7371f wrote:
3221 was in the middle of a heavy down in San Salvador when the pandemic hit. No reason to park a fresh, like new bird:-)

777Mech wrote:
n515cr wrote:

3221 has been flying the last few weeks, for what it's worth.


3221 will soldier on. 3217, 3222-3230 have been permanently wfu. I'm not sure how 3221 got spared, but I'll take it.


Right on! It now makes sense that the subsequent ones will be retired as they would be due for a heavy visit. 3217 was parked years ago for a while, so it's sequence is out of wack.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:36 am

The majority of aircraft departing storage facilities since early-August have generally been reposition/ferry flights to maintenance facilities, specifically to SAL & QRO.

Tue 8/25:
B752 VCV-QRO N624AG (ferry for storage/maintenance)

Thu 9/3:
B738 MWH-QRO N380DA (ferry for storage/maintenance)
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah good point about AA and WN regarding their early build NGs. Curious of those reasons are still applicable or whether the business case changes now with the debt load and capex constraints going forward.


Also have to remember the early years of the 73G/738 at DL they certainly racked up a lot of cycles on short-haul routes before the great expansion. Stuff like ATL-TLH several times a day.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:33 pm

Lootess wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah good point about AA and WN regarding their early build NGs. Curious of those reasons are still applicable or whether the business case changes now with the debt load and capex constraints going forward.


Also have to remember the early years of the 73G/738 at DL they certainly racked up a lot of cycles on short-haul routes before the great expansion. Stuff like ATL-TLH several times a day.

This is the first I heard of this. Normally WN, AA, and DL keep aircraft a long time. Recall, we have had discussions on 737 undergoing the front bulkhead repair due at 85,000 cycles. Due to new winglets and engine PiPs, where have you heard about this earlier retirement. This us seriously the first I heard about it.

The source if 737NGs will be there: Ryanair, SpiceJet and others.

The 737NG has a limit if Validity of 110,000 flight cycles (FC) and 125,000 flight hours (FH) versus the A320 60,000 FC and 120,000FH.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2012_q4/2/

We had a thread that went into why testing of the A320 for 90k FC, 180k FH failed:

viewtopic.php?t=775787


I expect DL to look at N309US, the earliest line number (115), 371DA (N371DA, but drop the N):

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

We see a mere 27,175 cycles, but 66,163 FH for a 1998 build ln 115. Just past half life in hours.
For WN a 1997 build 700GS with 47,203+ cycles and 77,182 FH.
For AA, 1999 build 901AN with gentle use, 24,444 FC (but last year, one finds out when a reportable issue is found) and 59,827 FH.

In this market, WN and AA would be silly to sell even their oldest 737NG.

That's ok, leasors have plenty coming in.

DL is in the drivers seat when they can expand again. Used 737NG, or new A220, A32x, or 737-8/-9/-10.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
n515cr
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:41 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The majority of aircraft departing storage facilities since early-August have generally been reposition/ferry flights to maintenance facilities, specifically to SAL & QRO.

Tue 8/25:
B752 VCV-QRO N624AG (ferry for storage/maintenance)

Thu 9/3:
B738 MWH-QRO N380DA (ferry for storage/maintenance)


Looks like 3712 will exit QRO soon - assume it will reenter service (showing ferry to SEA at time of this post but of course subject to change)
 
Lootess
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Lootess wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Yeah good point about AA and WN regarding their early build NGs. Curious of those reasons are still applicable or whether the business case changes now with the debt load and capex constraints going forward.


Also have to remember the early years of the 73G/738 at DL they certainly racked up a lot of cycles on short-haul routes before the great expansion. Stuff like ATL-TLH several times a day.

This is the first I heard of this. Normally WN, AA, and DL keep aircraft a long time. Recall, we have had discussions on 737 undergoing the front bulkhead repair due at 85,000 cycles. Due to new winglets and engine PiPs, where have you heard about this earlier retirement. This us seriously the first I heard about it.

The source if 737NGs will be there: Ryanair, SpiceJet and others.

The 737NG has a limit if Validity of 110,000 flight cycles (FC) and 125,000 flight hours (FH) versus the A320 60,000 FC and 120,000FH.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 2012_q4/2/

We had a thread that went into why testing of the A320 for 90k FC, 180k FH failed:

viewtopic.php?t=775787


I expect DL to look at N309US, the earliest line number (115), 371DA (N371DA, but drop the N):

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

We see a mere 27,175 cycles, but 66,163 FH for a 1998 build ln 115. Just past half life in hours.
For WN a 1997 build 700GS with 47,203+ cycles and 77,182 FH.
For AA, 1999 build 901AN with gentle use, 24,444 FC (but last year, one finds out when a reportable issue is found) and 59,827 FH.

In this market, WN and AA would be silly to sell even their oldest 737NG.

That's ok, leasors have plenty coming in.

DL is in the drivers seat when they can expand again. Used 737NG, or new A220, A32x, or 737-8/-9/-10.

Lightsaber


Yeah I was a bit surprised by AA's decision as well, between FH/Cycles apparently they done the math and of course AA did lease(back) some of them too during Chapter 11.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
In this market, WN and AA would be silly to sell even their oldest 737NG.


You can say it's silly, and the transactions may have been negotiated pre-covid, but planespotters.net shows nine ex-WN 737-700s having gone to United, including some that entered service fresh from Boeing as recently as 2005.

AA had been talking about 738 retirements for a while and then delayed due to MAX groundings. This isn't the oldest reference: https://onemileatatime.com/american-air ... -737-a330/
 
gdavis003
Posts: 232
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Re: Delta Narrow Body Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:37 pm

N3764D headed BHM-QRO tomorrow. Had been at BHM for quite some time (not a COVID park). Last time I saw it there, looked like the engines were in a state of disrepair so interesting to see it will be airborne tomorrow.

There’s a picture of it included on this tweet: https://twitter.com/patthomasnews/statu ... 57216?s=21

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