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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:10 pm

Well I know you are new here and young, so the interest is great.

There are several reasons. Right now DL has over 500 aircraft in storage. They will eventually restore capacity and rebuild their network and need aircraft to operate the flights.

The recent fleet restructuring activities that include the retirement of MD88, MD90 and removing the 77E/77L fleets involve removing entire fleet types that result in fixed, structural and permenant cost reductions.

Retiring the A320s en-masse, like the MD88/90 doesn't really remove much structural / fixed costs due to the commonality with the A319 & A321. They share a common pilot pool, there is significant commonality in parts, maintenance processes/tooling, and fleet management overhead.

In the short-term and drastic pull-down, it probably made sense to put them all to temporarily remove a fleet-subtype, for scheduling purposes and push a lot of the Airbus narrowbody flying to either the smaller A319 or the larger A321,

What is likely to happen is that as things recover, some A320s will be pulled from storage, particularly I sense the ones that are at MCI which isn't really long-term and/or disposal/scrapping vendor sites. The A320s at or near heavy maintenance checks may be permenantly retires. The ones that have green time will likely fly again.

Short answer, they don't need to make that decision now, until they truly see how this recovery plays out and the timing/defferal of all the new Airbus they had on order.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:10 pm

I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops. A320 engines are much more common with lower maintenance costs. A 25-28 year old A320 airframe on the other hand is Quite expensive to maintain, which is why many of the 25+ year old A320s in the world have been retired. My guess is that the A320 extended service life and compliance to all the Airworthiness Directives for the airplane maintenance costs are cheaper than the V2500 engines on the MD90.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:14 pm

I think the A320's will stay for a little bit longer. they are good for routes that don't need the range of the 75 or the 73's and good seat mile cost at 157seats. And also freshly refurbed.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:17 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops.


The MD-90 uses V2500s, though. DL's A320s use CFMs, but there are still a lot of V2500 powered A320s in the world. I think the showstopper for the MD-90 was the other parts.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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777Mech
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:22 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well I know you are new here and young, so the interest is great.

There are several reasons. Right now DL has over 500 aircraft in storage. They will eventually restore capacity and rebuild their network and need aircraft to operate the flights.

The recent fleet restructuring activities that include the retirement of MD88, MD90 and removing the 77E/77L fleets involve removing entire fleet types that result in fixed, structural and permenant cost reductions.

Retiring the A320s en-masse, like the MD88/90 doesn't really remove much structural / fixed costs due to the commonality with the A319 & A321. They share a common pilot pool, there is significant commonality in parts, maintenance processes/tooling, and fleet management overhead.

In the short-term and drastic pull-down, it probably made sense to put them all to temporarily remove a fleet-subtype, for scheduling purposes and push a lot of the Airbus narrowbody flying to either the smaller A319 or the larger A321,

What is likely to happen is that as things recover, some A320s will be pulled from storage, particularly I sense the ones that are at MCI which isn't really long-term and/or disposal/scrapping vendor sites. The A320s at or near heavy maintenance checks may be permenantly retires. The ones that have green time will likely fly again.

Short answer, they don't need to make that decision now, until they truly see how this recovery plays out and the timing/defferal of all the new Airbus they had on order.


I see where you're coming from as far as reactivation, However, all of the ones coming out soon are in SBD. 12 in total. The 7 or so in MCI are staying put for now.
 
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OA412
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:24 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
The 737-700 can do what the A319s do

Except they only have 10 73Gs vs. 57 A319s. The 73G was brought into the fleet to handle very specific routes that were a challenge for other aircraft in the fleet. They were purchased well before the merger with NW. The future in this size category is the A220, and DL has plenty of those on order.
Boeing757100 wrote:
and if they really need an upgauging from the 321, they have their 757s. Is it because of fleet commonality??

Except the future in this segment is the A321, not the 757 which hasn't been produced in 16 years. The 757 won't be around forever at DL, so it's not really feasible to rely on it for upgauging, which is why DL has order the A321neo.
Boeing757100 wrote:
Plus, the 737 series as a whole is 9.5 years old according to planespotters. And the A320 series is 18.4 years old as a whole!! I

That's more a function of the fact they've received a large number of brand new 739s in the last several years. DLs 738s are quite a bit older, some of the oldest are past the 20 year mark. The A321 fleet is young, but the A320s and A319s purchased from NW are older (some of the NWs A320s were among the earliest produced), and DL hasn't ordered additional aircraft since the merger.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:29 pm

777Mech wrote:
I see where you're coming from as far as reactivation, However, all of the ones coming out soon are in SBD. 12 in total. The 7 or so in MCI are staying put for now.

That's great actually since SBD is a place that has done end-of-life disposal / part-outs on the handful of A320s that were retired a few years ago, that didn't get the new interiors and had the smaller engines.

Also, I thought I saw somewhere they were pulling some 757s out of there as well.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:32 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well I know you are new here and young, so the interest is great.

There are several reasons. Right now DL has over 500 aircraft in storage. They will eventually restore capacity and rebuild their network and need aircraft to operate the flights.

The recent fleet restructuring activities that include the retirement of MD88, MD90 and removing the 77E/77L fleets involve removing entire fleet types that result in fixed, structural and permenant cost reductions.

Retiring the A320s en-masse, like the MD88/90 doesn't really remove much structural / fixed costs due to the commonality with the A319 & A321. They share a common pilot pool, there is significant commonality in parts, maintenance processes/tooling, and fleet management overhead.

In the short-term and drastic pull-down, it probably made sense to put them all to temporarily remove a fleet-subtype, for scheduling purposes and push a lot of the Airbus narrowbody flying to either the smaller A319 or the larger A321,

What is likely to happen is that as things recover, some A320s will be pulled from storage, particularly I sense the ones that are at MCI which isn't really long-term and/or disposal/scrapping vendor sites. The A320s at or near heavy maintenance checks may be permenantly retires. The ones that have green time will likely fly again.

Short answer, they don't need to make that decision now, until they truly see how this recovery plays out and the timing/defferal of all the new Airbus they had , on order.

Nice summary.

To combine with Weatherwatcher's observation on engine costs and opportunities. The JT8D was done being overhauled. There just isn't any economical way to extend the MD-88 life past the current "green" life (allowed operations time after airframe or engine overhaul).

The MD-90 had extreamly expensive engine overhauls as Delta was punitive in bidding 3 vendors against each other. Two said "not worth it, V2500D5 work isn't worth bidding on" and the remaining one had an opportunity to jack up prices; recall, there was a shortage of AMT certified techs before Covid19, so engine shops were going gor profit, which was volume (higher profit per unit due to economy of scale) or "pay me to make it worth my time."

Delta overhauls the CFM-56, so no engine incentive to dump vendors.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:36 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well I know you are new here and young, so the interest is great.

There are several reasons. Right now DL has over 500 aircraft in storage. They will eventually restore capacity and rebuild their network and need aircraft to operate the flights.

The recent fleet restructuring activities that include the retirement of MD88, MD90 and removing the 77E/77L fleets involve removing entire fleet types that result in fixed, structural and permenant cost reductions.

Retiring the A320s en-masse, like the MD88/90 doesn't really remove much structural / fixed costs due to the commonality with the A319 & A321. They share a common pilot pool, there is significant commonality in parts, maintenance processes/tooling, and fleet management overhead.

In the short-term and drastic pull-down, it probably made sense to put them all to temporarily remove a fleet-subtype, for scheduling purposes and push a lot of the Airbus narrowbody flying to either the smaller A319 or the larger A321,

What is likely to happen is that as things recover, some A320s will be pulled from storage, particularly I sense the ones that are at MCI which isn't really long-term and/or disposal/scrapping vendor sites. The A320s at or near heavy maintenance checks may be permenantly retires. The ones that have green time will likely fly again.

Short answer, they don't need to make that decision now, until they truly see how this recovery plays out and the timing/defferal of all the new Airbus they had on order.


If I recall correctly the A320's have bases at DTW and MSP, which follow ATL in the pecking order of restoring flights to hubs. Once business traffic starts to return to those hubs, I imagine the "green time" A320's will start to return to service.

Pre-COVID, Delta was planning to gradually phase out the A320's over the next several years (through the mid-2020's) as they timed out. As you mentioned, the parked A320's that are close to heavy checks might be candidates for early permanent retirement. I think the A320 fleet will eventually be somewhere in the 30-40 frame range as the recovery continues.
 
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Polot
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:40 pm

OA412 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Plus, the 737 series as a whole is 9.5 years old according to planespotters. And the A320 series is 18.4 years old as a whole!! I

That's more a function of the fact they've received a large number of brand new 739s in the last several years. DLs 738s are quite a bit older, some of the oldest are past the 20 year mark. The A321 fleet is young, but the A320s and A319s purchased from NW are older (some of the NWs A320s were among the earliest produced), and DL hasn't ordered additional aircraft since the merger.

That’s ignoring that DL also has a large A321 fleet that is mostly newer than the 739 fleet. DL’s 738 fleet is quite a bit older than the 739s, but their A320 fleet especially is even older, with many approaching 30 years old. The A319 are similar in age to many of the 738s.

It’s those A320s that are dragging DL’s A320 series fleet age way up.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tvh
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:42 pm

I would thing that the B757, MD80 and MD90 all help reduce the number of types in the fleet. But there will be a320's for a long time.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:42 pm

Also they just took out in the past 2 months ~65 MD88/90 aircraft that were in that 150-160 seat range. For the time being a lot of what had been MD88 flying in ATL is being flown by 717s that for the time being have been all consolidated to ATL. What was 717 flying in DTW is all CR9 for the time being. As capacity comes back, I'd expect to see some of the short-hop ATL flying that historically been MD88s to see the A320s.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:44 pm

Where does the phrase green time or green life come from?
Never heard it before. Is it a Delta word?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:20 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops.


The MD-90 uses V2500s, though. DL's A320s use CFMs, but there are still a lot of V2500 powered A320s in the world. I think the showstopper for the MD-90 was the other parts.

There is only one vendor in the whole world overhauling the MD90 engines. They are not the same engine as what’s on the A320. And the shop is located in Christchurch, NZ
 
B757Forever
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:23 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Where does the phrase green time or green life come from?
Never heard it before. Is it a Delta word?


It refers to the time/life remaining on life-limited parts.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:30 pm

Green time refers to good / operational time remaining before removal / major inspection / overhaul / replacement.
Often when talking about air-frame, engines, landing gear, or flight control surfaces.

The high costs associated with heavy maintenance, overhaul, major tear-down/inspection, and/or replacement of high value rotable parts can often dictate aircraft storage or retirement timelines.
Airlines have become increasingly adapt at managing these costs where feasible.

For example a 28 year old A320 that just went through a heavy maintenance visit (HMV) say in January 2020, may have 3 - 6 years, depending on the cycles and hours flown, of green time left on the airframe before the next multi-million dollar HMV. It has lots of green time remaining and will likely fly again since the maintenance costs have already been incurred.

On the other hand, there may be a 18 year old A320 that is due for an HMV in August 2020. Since cost reduction/avoidance and reducing cash burn is super important right now, they would likely not put this aircraft through an expensive HMV since they have hundreds of other aircraft to potentially reactivate that aren't in need of expensive maintenance. Its possible they may never need to put said aircraft through an HMV and they could keep it in long-term storage until they make a decision to reactivate, sell, or part-out and scrap the aircraft.
 
WN732
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:42 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops.


The MD-90 uses V2500s, though. DL's A320s use CFMs, but there are still a lot of V2500 powered A320s in the world. I think the showstopper for the MD-90 was the other parts.


They unfortunately use a specific D5 version of the V2500. Not sure what is different but it apparently was enough to cause several shops to stop servicing the specific parts.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:48 pm

The D5s are different than the A5s, and due in part since the A5 hang under wing and the D5 are side mount on the fuselage, thus there is some difference in parts/hardware, and routing of fuel lines/wiring/etc thus required a different certification.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:51 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
I heard that the MD-90 actually have a better fuel burn than the 320s. (Probably not true.)


I won't bother with the MD-90s (they're history), but carriers report cost per block hour and ASM to the DOT. A few years ago DL reported that its 757-200s had a lower cost (including crew and maintenance) per Available Seat Mile than its A320s. MD-90s were higher; MD-88s, higher still. 319s had a higher cost than MD-88s, so think about the benefits of upgauging.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
I heard that the MD-90 actually have a better fuel burn than the 320s. (Probably not true.)


I won't bother with the MD-90s (they're history), but carriers report cost per block hour and ASM to the DOT. A few years ago DL reported that its 757-200s had a lower cost (including crew and maintenance) per Available Seat Mile than its A320s. MD-90s were higher; MD-88s, higher still. 319s had a higher cost than MD-88s, so think about the benefits of upgauging.


Big difference in block hour costs vs ownership costs. Older planes cost more to maintain.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:46 pm

It is worth noting that the A320s will likely be needed to cover the former MD-88 routes once demand starts to pick back up. As of now, nearly all MD-88 routes have been directly replaced by 717s. A significant drop in capacity, though short-term it matters little as demand right now is low across the board.
 
n7371f
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:58 am

Ships 3251-3278 have plenty of life left in them. The a/c from 3209 through 3250 are older by about a decade on average but some of them may stick around for a while given their recent HMV.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:47 am

I also am curious if the engines are gonna have anything to do with this. IIRC the oldest ones have 25k engines, while the newer ones have 26.5k engines. They don’t go on any performance taxing routes so I’m not sure if that plays any part.
 
ewt340
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:54 am

Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

By looking at that strategy, it would be more useful to keep their A320 rather than retiring them. Even though they are old, they're still extremely fuel efficient, otherwise they would have been retired like the MDs.
 
SXDFC
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:25 am

With regards to the type of flights the Delta -700s do.. Could that now be done by an A320neo or 7378MAX?
 
777Mech
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:50 am

SXDFC wrote:
With regards to the type of flights the Delta -700s do.. Could that now be done by an A320neo or 7378MAX?


If someone could run the numbers for EYW and TGU, I'd be interested to know as well.
 
rrbsztk
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:03 am

Polot wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Plus, the 737 series as a whole is 9.5 years old according to planespotters. And the A320 series is 18.4 years old as a whole!! I

That's more a function of the fact they've received a large number of brand new 739s in the last several years. DLs 738s are quite a bit older, some of the oldest are past the 20 year mark. The A321 fleet is young, but the A320s and A319s purchased from NW are older (some of the NWs A320s were among the earliest produced), and DL hasn't ordered additional aircraft since the merger.

That’s ignoring that DL also has a large A321 fleet that is mostly newer than the 739 fleet. DL’s 738 fleet is quite a bit older than the 739s, but their A320 fleet especially is even older, with many approaching 30 years old. The A319 are similar in age to many of the 738s.

It’s those A320s that are dragging DL’s A320 series fleet age way up.


It might be different with different versions of planespotters; however when i just checked the 737 includes -700, 800, and 900 all combined while 319 is different from 320 different from 321. (Airfleets also groups them like this which annoys me i wish they were all separate).

There were two batches of A320s.
First
34 of the A320s were delivered in 1990-93.
Second
20 were delivered in 1998-99.
8 were delivered in 2001-03.

I would imagine the 34 from the early 90s are prime candidates for discarding once green time is used up. The other 28 depending on how things go with time might have a while left flying with Delta.
 
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flee
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:31 am

ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

By looking at that strategy, it would be more useful to keep their A320 rather than retiring them. Even though they are old, they're still extremely fuel efficient, otherwise they would have been retired like the MDs.

It is not just fuel efficiency that wins the day for the A320. Those CFM engines are highly reliable and seldom fail - they are known to have on wing lives of about 30,000 hrs. Such reliability means good dispatch rates and airlines like that.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:36 am

ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

Not a chance that A32X of any kind will be replacing their 739ERs.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:48 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

Not a chance that A32X of any kind will be replacing their 739ERs.


You obviously know more than me about Delta's planning department, but that is a very bold statement.
Why do you say that? If its not a chance, then what will?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:18 am

Tristarsteve wrote:
Why do you say that?

What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:51 am

rrbsztk wrote:
Polot wrote:
OA412 wrote:

That's more a function of the fact they've received a large number of brand new 739s in the last several years. DLs 738s are quite a bit older, some of the oldest are past the 20 year mark. The A321 fleet is young, but the A320s and A319s purchased from NW are older (some of the NWs A320s were among the earliest produced), and DL hasn't ordered additional aircraft since the merger.

That’s ignoring that DL also has a large A321 fleet that is mostly newer than the 739 fleet. DL’s 738 fleet is quite a bit older than the 739s, but their A320 fleet especially is even older, with many approaching 30 years old. The A319 are similar in age to many of the 738s.

It’s those A320s that are dragging DL’s A320 series fleet age way up.


It might be different with different versions of planespotters; however when i just checked the 737 includes -700, 800, and 900 all combined while 319 is different from 320 different from 321. (Airfleets also groups them like this which annoys me i wish they were all separate).

There were two batches of A320s.
First
34 of the A320s were delivered in 1990-93.
Second
20 were delivered in 1998-99.
8 were delivered in 2001-03.

I would imagine the 34 from the early 90s are prime candidates for discarding once green time is used up. The other 28 depending on how things go with time might have a while left flying with Delta.

It doesn't mean anything on how they group them as A319/320/321 is literally on the same airworthiness certificate.

Pilots also share the same type ratings as well and dare I say 75%+ of the parts are common.

Michael
 
ethernal
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:05 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Pilots also share the same type ratings as well and dare I say 75%+ of the parts are common.

Michael


Greater commonality than that.. Airbus usually says 95%+ parts commonality within family. I mean shoot, Airbus even says that the A330neo has 95% parts commonality with the A330 - and that has a whole different engine and a set of other tweaks too.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:10 pm

ethernal wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Pilots also share the same type ratings as well and dare I say 75%+ of the parts are common.

Michael


Greater commonality than that.. Airbus usually says 95%+ parts commonality within family. I mean shoot, Airbus even says that the A330neo has 95% parts commonality with the A330 - and that has a whole different engine and a set of other tweaks too.

Thanks, I'm being conservative here as I don't know the exact number

Michael
 
ewt340
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:13 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

Not a chance that A32X of any kind will be replacing their 739ERs.


Well obviously not now. Majority of their B737-800 could go for now since they are reaching the retiring age. They only have 10 B737-700 which could be replaced by A220-300.

As for 130 B737-900ER, many of them are young, and because of the sheer number they operate. They could keep them running until they got old enough to retire. The question would be, is it gonna be replaced by MAX or NEO. Currently they have order for NEO and A220, they even have some orders for A321CEO with no MAX order insight. Seems like they would go for A220-100/-300 and A320neo/A321neo for their narrowbody in the future.

They didn't order MAX, they didn't order the popular B787, they don't order any B777X either. This could suggest that in the future they could probably goes for All-Airbus unless Boeing came up with some good products like NMA or MAX replacement.

Other boeing aircraft in their fleet are in bad position as well. B717, B757 and B767 are good aircraft, but they are getting older.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1273
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:20 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Why do you say that?

What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?


Commonality, but only if they found buyers for all their B737-900ER. Which at this point is obviously impossible.
 
ethernal
Posts: 318
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:33 pm

ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Why do you say that?

What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?


Commonality, but only if they found buyers for all their B737-900ER. Which at this point is obviously impossible.


There's a concept in economics called minimum efficient scale... basically the earliest point where greater scale drives no or only trivial reductions in cost.

While admittedly the 738s and 737s will eventually be retired, right now Delta has 217 737NGs and 219 A32Xceos (if you include the A321 still being delivered).

Each of those fleets on their own would put Delta in the top 25 airlines in the world by fleet size.

Fleet commonality at that scale won't drive much value. Would it drive some? Maybe, but it would be trivial.. we're talking about maybe a 1-2% reduction in costs. Which sounds like a lot, but to get there would require a lot of investment. And, there are less measurable costs to consider. What happens if the A320 family has a MAX-like issue (or vice-versa) that grounds the fleet? How does having only one airline type impact negotiating power? And all these other issues that basically neutralize whatever tiny savings you could drive from commonality.

Point is, Delta is already at minimum efficient scale with 200+ aircraft subfleets. The value of commonality below that is de minimus.

Before someone raises Southwest or Ryanair as a counterpoint, keep in mind that Delta's business model is fundamentally different. When you eliminate ALL OTHER types you gain an extra scale point - you eliminate an entire administrative overhead apperatus and business processes associated with multi-type management. My scheduling system can be completely dumb (ala WN... their systems are out of the stone age, but it works because.. well, all their planes and pilots are essentially identical cogs). Delta is going to have to manage multiple types regardless, so the simplification from consolidation from 7 types to 6 is far less compelling. Going from 2 to 1 (or vice versa) is a much bigger step change than 7 to 6 from a business operations perspective.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14549
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:56 pm

ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Why do you say that?

What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?


Commonality, but only if they found buyers for all their B737-900ER. Which at this point is obviously impossible.


Does any 321 beat the 739 on CASM on the short stage lengths on which DL mostly uses the 739? I wouldn't think it would be able to overcome the ~10 percent weight disadvantage. A typical day for a 739 in more normal times is something like RDU-ATL-BNA-DTW-ORD-ATL-TPA. That's not where the 321 shines.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 403
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:16 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?


Commonality, but only if they found buyers for all their B737-900ER. Which at this point is obviously impossible.


Does any 321 beat the 739 on CASM on the short stage lengths on which DL mostly uses the 739? I wouldn't think it would be able to overcome the ~10 percent weight disadvantage. A typical day for a 739 in more normal times is something like RDU-ATL-BNA-DTW-ORD-ATL-TPA. That's not where the 321 shines.

DL 321’s are a bit lighter since they don’t have any ACT’s. The 2-4hr range is where the 321 shines, the 321 has either 9 or 12 more seats depending on the cabin, but I’m not entirely sure about the exact CASM.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:22 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What benefit would DL (or really any airline) receive by replacing a 130+ unit fleet, whose average age is barely 3yrs-old, with an A320N or A321N?


Commonality, but only if they found buyers for all their B737-900ER. Which at this point is obviously impossible.


Does any 321 beat the 739 on CASM on the short stage lengths on which DL mostly uses the 739? I wouldn't think it would be able to overcome the ~10 percent weight disadvantage. A typical day for a 739 in more normal times is something like RDU-ATL-BNA-DTW-ORD-ATL-TPA. That's not where the 321 shines.

It depends I think because DL have basic 321’s, only about 5-6% heavier, the CEO’s were basically meant for the shorter Tcons, and the east coast 757 flying, the 739’s are for longer flights, but they’re light enough to do shorter stuff. Once the Neo’s come that switches a bit.
 
JHCRJ700
Posts: 237
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:44 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops.


The MD-90 uses V2500s, though. DL's A320s use CFMs, but there are still a lot of V2500 powered A320s in the world. I think the showstopper for the MD-90 was the other parts.


It was my understanding (could be wrong) that the MD90s used a specific variant of the V2500 and there was only maybe one shop in the world that could still service them. Part of the reason the maintenance costs were so high.
It's the power and the glory, It's a war in paradise, A Cinderella story, On a tumble of the dice
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:06 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
Polot wrote:
That’s ignoring that DL also has a large A321 fleet that is mostly newer than the 739 fleet. DL’s 738 fleet is quite a bit older than the 739s, but their A320 fleet especially is even older, with many approaching 30 years old. The A319 are similar in age to many of the 738s.

It’s those A320s that are dragging DL’s A320 series fleet age way up.


It might be different with different versions of planespotters; however when i just checked the 737 includes -700, 800, and 900 all combined while 319 is different from 320 different from 321. (Airfleets also groups them like this which annoys me i wish they were all separate).

There were two batches of A320s.
First
34 of the A320s were delivered in 1990-93.
Second
20 were delivered in 1998-99.
8 were delivered in 2001-03.

I would imagine the 34 from the early 90s are prime candidates for discarding once green time is used up. The other 28 depending on how things go with time might have a while left flying with Delta.

It doesn't mean anything on how they group them as A319/320/321 is literally on the same airworthiness certificate.

Pilots also share the same type ratings as well and dare I say 75%+ of the parts are common.

Michael

I'm talking about their average age. Someone said the reason the 737s are younger than the 320s is they just got all the 737-900s. Someone else pointed out that they are also getting new A321s so the new 321s would also bring down the 320 average age. My point is that on the website, 737-900s are mixed in with the 700s and 800s when they say average age, but the 319 is a separate line from 320 from 321.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8234
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:46 pm

rrbsztk wrote:
My point is that on the website, 737-900s are mixed in with the 700s and 800s when they say average age, but the 319 is a separate line from 320 from 321.


I have to ask, on what web site? Planespotters.net shows avg age by subfleet: 737-700s separate from -800s or -900s; 753s separate from 757s; 764s from 763s, and so on. Just click on the + in the aircraft type column. It doesn't separate 777 from 77L but with so few of each that's easy enough to suss out.

A320 avg age, 24.8 years
738 avg age, 18.8 years
 
Jetport
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:50 pm

ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

Not a chance that A32X of any kind will be replacing their 739ERs.


Well obviously not now. Majority of their B737-800 could go for now since they are reaching the retiring age. They only have 10 B737-700 which could be replaced by A220-300.

As for 130 B737-900ER, many of them are young, and because of the sheer number they operate. They could keep them running until they got old enough to retire. The question would be, is it gonna be replaced by MAX or NEO. Currently they have order for NEO and A220, they even have some orders for A321CEO with no MAX order insight. Seems like they would go for A220-100/-300 and A320neo/A321neo for their narrowbody in the future.

They didn't order MAX, they didn't order the popular B787, they don't order any B777X either. This could suggest that in the future they could probably goes for All-Airbus unless Boeing came up with some good products like NMA or MAX replacement.

Other boeing aircraft in their fleet are in bad position as well. B717, B757 and B767 are good aircraft, but they are getting older.


Delta doesn't care who they buy airplanes from, they appear to always go for the best deal. The reason Airbus has gotten all the recent Delta orders is because of pricing, and to a lesser extent availability. From all available information, Delta got the best price of anyone ever in the world on the A220 (Bombardier at the time), A330Neo, A350 and end of line A321Ceo. The old article from 2017 linked below says they got A350's because they were cheaper than 787's and they could get them quicker. This is the first time I have heard of A350's being cheaper than 787's. I can see why Delta loves Airbus due to pricing. I am not so sure Airbus should love Delta, since they appear to be the Consortium's global loss leader.

At a media event in Atlanta on Wednesday, Delta CEO Ed Bastian told reporters that three years ago, Delta considered ordering the 787. “I love the airplane,” Bastian said, but “Boeing couldn’t deliver on the timeline we were looking at” and “the price point was better” for the A350.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 8c979669e8
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
My point is that on the website, 737-900s are mixed in with the 700s and 800s when they say average age, but the 319 is a separate line from 320 from 321.


I have to ask, on what web site? Planespotters.net shows avg age by subfleet: 737-700s separate from -800s or -900s; 753s separate from 757s; 764s from 763s, and so on. Just click on the + in the aircraft type column. It doesn't separate 777 from 77L but with so few of each that's easy enough to suss out.

A320 avg age, 24.8 years
738 avg age, 18.8 years


From my phone without a logged in account on planespotters I don't see a + to click/way to do that. I'm thinking that if you have an account you get more information options.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4565
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:14 pm

rrbsztk wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
rrbsztk wrote:
My point is that on the website, 737-900s are mixed in with the 700s and 800s when they say average age, but the 319 is a separate line from 320 from 321.


I have to ask, on what web site? Planespotters.net shows avg age by subfleet: 737-700s separate from -800s or -900s; 753s separate from 757s; 764s from 763s, and so on. Just click on the + in the aircraft type column. It doesn't separate 777 from 77L but with so few of each that's easy enough to suss out.

A320 avg age, 24.8 years
738 avg age, 18.8 years


From my phone without a logged in account on planespotters I don't see a + to click/way to do that. I'm thinking that if you have an account you get more information options.


Smartphone optimized websites often omit features to make them easier to navigate on small touchscreen displays. I have it on both my Mac and PC, and I don't have an account on that site.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2400
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:28 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

By looking at that strategy, it would be more useful to keep their A320 rather than retiring them. Even though they are old, they're still extremely fuel efficient, otherwise they would have been retired like the MDs.


No idea why you are jumping to the conclusion that because DL has not ordered the MAX now that they never will. Your own example belies the conclusion, DL ordered A321s only after 737 orders.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2400
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:30 pm

Jetport wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Not a chance that A32X of any kind will be replacing their 739ERs.


Well obviously not now. Majority of their B737-800 could go for now since they are reaching the retiring age. They only have 10 B737-700 which could be replaced by A220-300.

As for 130 B737-900ER, many of them are young, and because of the sheer number they operate. They could keep them running until they got old enough to retire. The question would be, is it gonna be replaced by MAX or NEO. Currently they have order for NEO and A220, they even have some orders for A321CEO with no MAX order insight. Seems like they would go for A220-100/-300 and A320neo/A321neo for their narrowbody in the future.

They didn't order MAX, they didn't order the popular B787, they don't order any B777X either. This could suggest that in the future they could probably goes for All-Airbus unless Boeing came up with some good products like NMA or MAX replacement.

Other boeing aircraft in their fleet are in bad position as well. B717, B757 and B767 are good aircraft, but they are getting older.


Delta doesn't care who they buy airplanes from, they appear to always go for the best deal. The reason Airbus has gotten all the recent Delta orders is because of pricing, and to a lesser extent availability. From all available information, Delta got the best price of anyone ever in the world on the A220 (Bombardier at the time), A330Neo, A350 and end of line A321Ceo. The old article from 2017 linked below says they got A350's because they were cheaper than 787's and they could get them quicker. This is the first time I have heard of A350's being cheaper than 787's. I can see why Delta loves Airbus due to pricing. I am not so sure Airbus should love Delta, since they appear to be the Consortium's global loss leader.

At a media event in Atlanta on Wednesday, Delta CEO Ed Bastian told reporters that three years ago, Delta considered ordering the 787. “I love the airplane,” Bastian said, but “Boeing couldn’t deliver on the timeline we were looking at” and “the price point was better” for the A350.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 8c979669e8


This isn't completely correct. Both the A330neo/A350 and A321neo orders were influenced heavily by engine maintenance rights for DL TechOps - it wasn't just price and availability. DL's statement on "price point" probably incorporated expected revenues from engine maintenance.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20251
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Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired?

Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:55 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Because they didn't order any MAX. In the future, B737-700, B737-800 and B737-900ER would be replaced by A320neo + A321neo instead.

By looking at that strategy, it would be more useful to keep their A320 rather than retiring them. Even though they are old, they're still extremely fuel efficient, otherwise they would have been retired like the MDs.


No idea why you are jumping to the conclusion that because DL has not ordered the MAX now that they never will. Your own example belies the conclusion, DL ordered A321s only after 737 orders.

DL negotiates hard. With 130 739ER that will be around forever, DL can afford to play of Boeing and Airbus and CFM vs. Pratt. The engine service costs are rumored to be a huge part of DL buying contracts.

DL has the right to service any CFM-56, Trent 1000, 7000, XWB, or PW1500, or PW1100 for anyone, including bidding on the engine vendor power by the hour. Note the T1000, which is for the 787, as part of the A330NEO purchase.

If CFM offers the LEAP-1A and -1B as well as Boeing offering the deals I'm reading about.

Delta must renegotiate A321 (CEO and NEO) contracts. You had better believe Delta signed up every inspector in AAB's short course on carpet inspection. Pratt will be put on notice to cut costs. CFM will be informed of an opportunity. Delta isn't stupid, they know Pratt sells engines at a loss, but is going to lower cost 3D printed parts. So perhaps take spares cheaper.

Boeing needs a large MAX order. Perhaps offer DL a -9ER (new gear) or -8 at good pricing, with engine and gear refurbishment and good spares. I will be shocked if Delta doesn't order 100 to 200 MAX by year end 2021. We need another thread to discuss delivery timeline.

I expect DL to order more A220. With their options, they can take time negotiating.

Will Airbus counter?
Winter is coming.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Why have DL's A320-200s not been retired????????

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:00 pm

JHCRJ700 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it comes down to engines. The MD88 and MD90 engine maintenance costs are very high since there are limited spare parts and competition among overhaul shops.


The MD-90 uses V2500s, though. DL's A320s use CFMs, but there are still a lot of V2500 powered A320s in the world. I think the showstopper for the MD-90 was the other parts.


It was my understanding (could be wrong) that the MD90s used a specific variant of the V2500 and there was only maybe one shop in the world that could still service them. Part of the reason the maintenance costs were so high.

One vendor and they are located in Christchurch, New Zealand
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