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mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1625
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Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:22 pm

This article is not the type you want to see if you are a Southwest customer or employee. The unwillingness to comply with an IOSA audit is a bad look.

Finding yourself ranked with Iraqi Airways should be a wake up call.

https://m.sfgate.com/travel/article/Southwest-Airlines-safety-ranking-14945622.php
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:35 pm

What benefits does IOSA bring? Surely oversight and examination from the competent authority should suffice?

The rankings are written by Geoffrey Thomas. Qantas fanboy extraordinaire who I believe was a baggage handler many years ago and has no official training in airline safety. I'm not sure he even holds a PPL. He does a lot of travelling indeed, no doubt collecting and spending a lot of air miles. It comes as no surprise that hed rank SWA so poorly as the chances of him flying them are slim to none.

Ryanair has carried many more times the passengers of Qantas. Ryanair has carried more passengers without fatalities than any other airline on earth. Ryanair transports more passengers on more flights each and every day than Qantas and fly to many more destinations in much more challenging conditions than your average super long, wide, ILS equipped Austrlian runway. Yet it manages just 4 stars on safety. And, what say he on easyJet? Nothing! So, the world's 8 biggest airline in terms of passenger numbers doesn't even get a look in. You think he would look into it, given that 100,000,000 people per year will be flying easyJet soon.

He lists IndiGo as one of the safest LCCs yet somehow the fact that they were suffering excessive IFSDs due to using improper techniques seems to have escaped him.

Its embarassingly predictable that GT will do this survey every year and always lavishes his beloved Qantas with praise. I can't think of a metric whereby it is any safer than another airlines. Other airlines have flown longer without a fatality. Other airlines have flown more passengers without a fatality. Other airlines have flown more flights without a fatality.

Yet Qantas reigns supreme. Perhaps if he declared any conflicts of interest, such as holding FF status with particular airlines then I'd perhaps think better of his sham rating system, but as it stands, it lacks integrity.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8020
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:55 pm

Do you really trust Airlineratings.com as an arbiter of safety? Do you think this group has anything for technical expertise on the FAA or EASA? This is just clickbait by SF Gate.

https://www.airlineratings.com/category ... e-editors/
 
EFHK
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:02 pm

As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.
 
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Polot
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Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:02 pm

It’s literary only last because that website gives 3 stars for IOSA certification (which is not mandatory), which is
~43% of the overall rating.

WN has decided not to do IOSA certification (minus 3 stars) and has had a fatality in the past 10 years (minus 1 star) hence its rating of 3/7 stars. Hardly a great breakdown of how save an airline is. If WN got IOSA certification with no changes they would suddenly be 6/7.
 
flight152
Posts: 3454
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:22 pm

EFHK wrote:
As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.

This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??
 
glideslope900
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:26 pm

flight152 wrote:
EFHK wrote:
As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.

This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??


Or in Southwest’s case, goes off the end of the runway (Burbank). Not knocking SW though, I fly on them. Any US carrier is safe.
 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1625
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:43 pm

flight152 wrote:
EFHK wrote:
As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.

This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??


Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain. Haven’t enough FAA inspectors gotten in trouble for their cozy relationship with WN over the years to prove that an independent review is a good idea?

When you have regional carriers in the USA willing to undergo these audits makes you really wonder what is WN hiding?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:54 pm

mcdu wrote:
flight152 wrote:
EFHK wrote:
As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.

This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??


Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain. Haven’t enough FAA inspectors gotten in trouble for their cozy relationship with WN over the years to prove that an independent review is a good idea?

When you have regional carriers in the USA willing to undergo these audits makes you really wonder what is WN hiding?


Again, what is the benefit to WN of this sort of audit?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
EFHK
Posts: 423
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Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:58 pm

flight152 wrote:
EFHK wrote:
As long as we're not having multiple crashes per year, these "safety rankings" mean absolutely nothing.

All the major airlines in the US (and most other parts of the world) are extremely safe.

This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??



Nothing that I said contradicts what you're saying.

These safety rankings are not going to capture most of the potential unsafe practices, such as unstable approaches. They have to rely on data they can find and measure, such as the number of accidents and fatalities. That's probably why one single element, such as the IOSA audit, can get such a heavy weight on the ranking, because it happens to be something that can be measured.

If we're measuring safety by the number of fatalities, which is probably the one thing the public is most concerned about when flying, sure, Southwest is indeed the most unsafe airline of the 2010s in the US along with Penair with 1 fatality each.

Flying will never be absolutely safe. Still, it's a good goal. But relatively, flying is extremely safe, when compared to other forms of transportation, or measured by the probability of getting into an accident when you board a plane.

I'm measuring safety in the latter, relative manner.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2701
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Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:03 pm

IOSA has become the standard to which commercial airlines are being measured against, to the point airlines will refuse interlining with another airline which is not IOSA certified. Essentially the same as an ISO or AS/EN certification, in that it proves you have a competent organisation running compliant procedures and processes, ensuring a consistently high level of quality and safety. IOSA audits goes much deeper than the standard audits performed by regulators, and are carried out by airline peers rather than government officials, who often are better at picking out the sore points.

From the outside SW doesn't look like a sound operation, but they have a knack for hiring bubbly flight attendants, offers low fares and have cultivated an agreeable brand image. So even if they burst a fuselage, or blow an engine, or run off a runway, or have a terrible relationship with employee groups, they've still got their loyal followers.

Avoiding IOSA is very easy for SW; the general public are completely ignorant to the concept, and they don't need to worry about interlining or alliances. What would really be ironic, is if SW requires ISAGO certification from their ground handling providers.
Last edited by B777LRF on Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Signature. You just read one.
 
TheOldDude
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:08 pm

mcdu wrote:
Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain.


That's quite an accusation. Do you have any actual evidence, or are you making the accusation solely on a wish that it were so?

There may be many reasons for lack of an IOSA audit. You have not enumerated the possible reasons and shown that none apply to WN. Thus, the accusation seems like a heartfelt wish.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:09 pm

B777LRF wrote:
IOSA has become the standard to which commercial airlines are being measured against, to the point airlines will refuse interlining with another airline which is not IOSA certified. Essentially the same as an ISO or AS/EN certification, in that it proves you have a competent organisation running compliant procedures and processes, ensuring a consistently high level of quality and safety. IOSA audits goes much deeper than the standard audits performed by regulators, and are carried out by airline peers rather than government officials, who often are better at picking out the sore points.

From the outside SW doesn't look like a sound operation, but they have a knack for hiring bubbly flight attendants, offers low fares and have cultivated an agreeable brand image. So even if they burst a fuselage, or blow an engine, or run off a runway, or have a terrible relationship with employee groups, they've still got their loyal followers.

Avoiding IOSA is very easy for SW; the general public are completely ignorant to the concept, and they don't need to worry about interlinking or alliances.


According to Wikipedia, SWA has close to 750 aircraft in its fleet. Flying is a numbers game. Do it enough and eventually your time will be up. Given the absolute vast number of flights operated by SWA, it's inevitable that from time to time you'll have an incident. Given the number of flights, it could take a competitor years to fly the same number of flights SWA in one year, so on the face of it, SWA is likely to have a prang statistically.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1570
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:25 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
mcdu wrote:
flight152 wrote:
This could not be further from the truth. Lack of crashes does not mean safe. Think of a flight with the most unstable approach, lands long and just barely stops at the end of the runway; are you telling me that flight was “safe” because it didn’t crash??


Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain. Haven’t enough FAA inspectors gotten in trouble for their cozy relationship with WN over the years to prove that an independent review is a good idea?

When you have regional carriers in the USA willing to undergo these audits makes you really wonder what is WN hiding?


Again, what is the benefit to WN of this sort of audit?


...to improve safety? To have an external source evaluate their safety practices and perhaps identify some issues that WN didn’t notice themselves?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2959
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:36 pm

flyby519 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
mcdu wrote:

Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain. Haven’t enough FAA inspectors gotten in trouble for their cozy relationship with WN over the years to prove that an independent review is a good idea?

When you have regional carriers in the USA willing to undergo these audits makes you really wonder what is WN hiding?


Again, what is the benefit to WN of this sort of audit?


...to improve safety? To have an external source evaluate their safety practices and perhaps identify some issues that WN didn’t notice themselves?


Isn't that what their AOC is for? Responsible persons?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:41 pm

sevenair wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Again, what is the benefit to WN of this sort of audit?


...to improve safety? To have an external source evaluate their safety practices and perhaps identify some issues that WN didn’t notice themselves?


Isn't that what their AOC is for? Responsible persons?


External oversight is good in general. But for IOSA specifically to benefit WN, there would need to be some evidence that it brings benefits that there existing oversight does not. Where is that evidence?

WN marches to the beat of a different drummer in many ways. We can probably all agree that some of its choices - such as not outsourcing flying to the lowest regional bidder - are ones that enhance safety.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4681
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:52 pm

Open thread, see the OP...

Yeah ima head out.

TheOldDude wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Exactly. Southwest does not want an independent safety audit. They do not want anyone having a peak behind the curtain.


Thus, the accusation seems like a heartfelt wish.


:checkmark:
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:54 pm

Honestly... the paper of this ratings group isn’t worthy of wiping my posterior end with such a WORTHLESS survey analysis.

What an “out of touch” and obviously overcompensated group who apparently came up with this rubbish which passes as reputably sourced journalism.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:57 pm

In terms of safety, there is always room for improvement,

but a blatantly false narrative does NOTHING for the public.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8338
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:00 pm

Ryanair is not IOSA audited. Lot of LCCs opt out IOSA, no big deal.

To validate how fair these ratings, compare Indigo, SpiceJet and Air India. Indigo and SpiceJet get 7-stars, but Air India gets 6 stars because India ICAO score is 6/8. Not sure why the discrepancy. Country rating should be same for all carriers in a country.
All posts are just opinions.
 
slider
Posts: 7602
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:15 pm

B777LRF wrote:
IOSA has become the standard to which commercial airlines are being measured against, to the point airlines will refuse interlining with another airline which is not IOSA certified. Essentially the same as an ISO or AS/EN certification, in that it proves you have a competent organisation running compliant procedures and processes, ensuring a consistently high level of quality and safety. IOSA audits goes much deeper than the standard audits performed by regulators, and are carried out by airline peers rather than government officials, who often are better at picking out the sore points.

From the outside SW doesn't look like a sound operation, but they have a knack for hiring bubbly flight attendants, offers low fares and have cultivated an agreeable brand image. So even if they burst a fuselage, or blow an engine, or run off a runway, or have a terrible relationship with employee groups, they've still got their loyal followers.

Avoiding IOSA is very easy for SW; the general public are completely ignorant to the concept, and they don't need to worry about interlining or alliances. What would really be ironic, is if SW requires ISAGO certification from their ground handling providers.


My experience with IOSA is that most major airlines will not affiliate themselves in a capacity purchase agreement with a regional carrier without having IOSA certification.

It is absolutely a threshold requirement and, as an external body, it is a litmus test for safety program management, procedures, process controls and quality assurance, as well as overall safety in operations.

Candidly, WN should *want* to do this. Far too often, the groupthink in safety ends up resulting in blind spots that can be (or are in their own right) safety hazards themselves. Best practices should always be embraced and the advancement of safety sciences in aviation is one of the reasons we have this amazingly safe air travel system today. WN does itself a disservice by not doing this.
 
mcdu
Topic Author
Posts: 1625
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:17 pm

Here is a great reason why WN should be part of an IOSA audit. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-southwest-faa/u-s-watchdog-says-faa-southwest-ties-too-close-idUSN0340389320080403 The FAA oversight at WN has been subject to raised eyebrows and has also resulted in fines and inspectors being reassigned for having too cozy of a relationship with WN.

Ironically those outsourced operations that you want to bring up as a defense, well they all participated in IOSA audits. So if the lowest bidder as you say is willing to participate, that raises even more concerns about why would WN not participate?

Cubsrule wrote:
sevenair wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

...to improve safety? To have an external source evaluate their safety practices and perhaps identify some issues that WN didn’t notice themselves?


Isn't that what their AOC is for? Responsible persons?


External oversight is good in general. But for IOSA specifically to benefit WN, there would need to be some evidence that it brings benefits that there existing oversight does not. Where is that evidence?

WN marches to the beat of a different drummer in many ways. We can probably all agree that some of its choices - such as not outsourcing flying to the lowest regional bidder - are ones that enhance safety.
Last edited by mcdu on Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1102
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:19 pm

(Sarcasm on):
"Frank, it's time to plan our vacation...whom should we choose to fly with?"

"Well, Helen, you know, I was considering Southwest, but then I read that paper that says Southwest is doesn't care about its passengers or its safety record!"

"Really Frank? How do you know that?"

"Well, I'm reading this scientific report that points out that Southwest had one passenger killed in a freak accident a while back!"

"Oh, no! That's terrible! How could they let that happen?"

"I know! And none of the other carriers had that kind of a freak accident, so I guess Southwest just doesn't care!!"

"Oh, how could they? Won't someone PLEASE think of the children?"

"I agree!! Because they won't submit to a paid audit, they are just playing games with our lives!! I mean, everyone else does it, so I guess if Southwest doesn't want to pay for it, they MUST be unsafe, right? It says so right here in this one and only artice!!"

"Hey Frank! Hey Helen! How's your trip planning going?"

"Oh, Bob, thank God you're here! We were just about to book on Southwest airlines, but thankfully this one report saved our lives!! Can you believe how unsafe this airline is? We could have been killed by their lack of a safety culture!!"

"Huh? What are you talking about?"

"Right here - this one report that points out all the things wrong with Southwest. Why, they're a flying death trap!! You take your lives into you own hands when you get on board one of their unsafe aircraft! Did you know they actually had a passenger killed a while back?"

"Ummm, yeah...did you check other sources of information?"

"Why would I do that? This one piece of screaming hysterical journalism is all I need to make an informed decision!! Thank goodness for this scientific and unbiased story on safety, otherwise we might have been killed"

"Well, okay then...y'all plan your trip, and have a good time. Oh, and remember, a couple of years ago a tourist fell off a cliff, which means the entire country is unsafe..."

"WHAT???? I didn't hear about that!! Helen, our trip is off!!"

"Oh, Bob, thank goodness you saved us!! We could have been killed in so many different ways!! What would we do without honest and unbiased investigative reporting?"
(Sarcasm off)
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14473
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:28 pm

mcdu wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
sevenair wrote:

Isn't that what their AOC is for? Responsible persons?


External oversight is good in general. But for IOSA specifically to benefit WN, there would need to be some evidence that it brings benefits that there existing oversight does not. Where is that evidence?

WN marches to the beat of a different drummer in many ways. We can probably all agree that some of its choices - such as not outsourcing flying to the lowest regional bidder - are ones that enhance safety.


Here is a great reason why WN should be part of an IOSA audit. [url]https://www.wired.com/2008/03/congress-faa-an//url]

The FAA oversight at WN has been subject to raised eyebrows and has also resulted in fines and inspectors being reassigned for having too cozy of a relationship with WN.

Ironically those outsourced operations that you want to bring up as a defense, well they all participated in IOSA audits. So if the lowest bidder as you say is willing to participate, that raises even more concerns about why would WN not participate?


I have trouble getting concerned about things where no one can seemingly cite me any evidence that a particular activity enhances safety. Heck, 5Y is audited and we just saw them crash a perfectly good 767 thanks to terrible airmanship and CRM. Are they safe? I'd argue they are not.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
User avatar
ojjunior
Posts: 963
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:31 am

Re: Southwest ranks last in safety amongst US carriers

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:38 pm

Just another Skytrax style publication...
Move on.

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