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dr1980
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WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:37 pm

WS248 inbound from Toronto is off runway 14. No injuries reported. Passengers are being transported to the terminal by bus.

It’s a stormy day here today with low visibility and a strong crosswind on 14. Interestingly this aircraft and an Air Canada A321 both from Toronto were approaching YHZ around the same time, the Air Canada flight diverted to YUL.
Dave/CYHZ
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:42 pm

Perhaps AC has learned its lesson about landing at YHZ in foul conditions. I’m glad everyone is ok. 14 has the only ILS at YHZ, right?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:44 pm

23 has an ILS Cat II, winds were out of 020 at the time. 05 and 32 are RNAV only.
Dave/CYHZ
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:38 pm

Wow, seems YHZ presents some challenges during inclement weather conditions. Thinking about AC624 a few years ago, AC 614 back in March of '19 and now WS.
 
peak86
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:10 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Wow, seems YHZ presents some challenges during inclement weather conditions. Thinking about AC624 a few years ago, AC 614 back in March of '19 and now WS.


Seriously... YHZ seems awfully prone to these sorts of things
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:28 pm

Baffles me why they chose to land with a tailwind on a contaminated short runway.

That being said, YHZ needs both of its runways to be over 9 or 10,000ft long.

Look at KEF. Another airport prone to some nasty winds. Both perpendicular runways are over 10,000ft.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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ACCS300
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:38 pm

Runway 14/32 absolutely needs to be extended, seems it gives YHZ no end of trouble. Incidences seem far too frequent. Sky Lease Cargo Flight 4854 went off the same runway in Nov 2018.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:58 pm

What was the aircraft type and how many passengers please?
come visit the south pacific
 
YULACYYZ
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:00 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
What was the aircraft type and how many passengers please?


B738 with 172 pax plus 6 crews
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:13 pm

dr1980 wrote:
23 has an ILS Cat II, winds were out of 020 at the time. 05 and 32 are RNAV only.


I found this reference from 2016. Still true?

Only YVR, YYC, YYZ and YYT have CAT III A approaches in Canada.
 
Scarebus34
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
dr1980 wrote:
23 has an ILS Cat II, winds were out of 020 at the time. 05 and 32 are RNAV only.


I found this reference from 2016. Still true?

Only YVR, YYC, YYZ and YYT have CAT III A approaches in Canada.


Yes. They all have CAT III approaches.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:48 pm

Looks like the aircraft got a bit dirty. Also, there was no emergency evacuation.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/ ... ax-394367/
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:05 pm

Anyone have the METAR at the time?

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:45 pm

This is from noon local which would be around the right time

METAR CYHZ 051600Z 36015G23KT 1/2SM R14/4000V5500FT/D SN OVC002 M00/M00 A2912 RMK ST8 /S07/ SLP869=
Dave/CYHZ
 
Karlsands
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:56 pm

Gusting 23 with a quartering tailwind, definitely not ideal, then again ice is ice, sounds like they were pretty much slowed down once they slid
 
Q
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:48 am

In Chicago, I was watching TV news Ch 5. The closed captioned shows There are 700 passengers on board. I laughed so hard. I rewind and it says 700 passengers on board. Where did the media reporter get from? LOL!!!

Q
 
matt
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:35 am

This - and the weather - must have created a huge backlog for Air Canada as they are sending three 777-300s to operate flights between Toronto and Halifax and Halifax and Toronto today (Monday, January 6).
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:26 pm

Not sure if it’s the same flights or not but they’ve actually been operating the 77W YYZ-YHZ once per day for a good chunk of December.
Dave/CYHZ
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:27 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Runway 14/32 absolutely needs to be extended, seems it gives YHZ no end of trouble. Incidences seem far too frequent. Sky Lease Cargo Flight 4854 went off the same runway in Nov 2018.


I feel like in this case the lack of ILS on 05 is the bigger issue. This would have been a better runway wind-wise but i suspect they chose 14 for the ILS approach given the low ceiling and visibility.
Dave/CYHZ
 
Dominion301
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:05 pm

How many more “incidents” will it take at most > 1 million pax/year Canadian airports (YHZ especially) before something is done about runway infrastructure?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:09 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
dr1980 wrote:
23 has an ILS Cat II, winds were out of 020 at the time. 05 and 32 are RNAV only.


I found this reference from 2016. Still true?

Only YVR, YYC, YYZ and YYT have CAT III A approaches in Canada.


Yes. They all have CAT III approaches.


And still ONLY those airports?
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
And still ONLY those airports?


As well as the Cat II airports......like YHM, YHZ, YMX, etc. Remember, there are not a lot of “major” airports in Canada.

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?

Within pilot ranks, YHZ is regarded as a joke, with Mickey Mouse approaches, questionable snow clearing and surface reports that are so out of date, it becomes a “beer bet”. The only other airport in Canada that comes close to being a joke is YOW ...... our frigging nation’s capital!!!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
CanadianRedneck
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:39 pm

Changes need to come sooner than later for YHZ. Runway extension and snow clearing are a couple of things that come to mind.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:45 pm

quote from the article that Wildcat cites:

“It was basically like a car sliding off the road onto the grassy shoulder,” he said. “That's all this is. It's not calamitous, it's not dire. No one was hurt.”

Where's the quote about "everyone was screaming" or "we though we were going to die"? How journalistic standards have fallen :shakehead:
 
boeing767300
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:07 pm

longhauler wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
And still ONLY those airports?


As well as the Cat II airports......like YHM, YHZ, YMX, etc. Remember, there are not a lot of “major” airports in Canada.

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?

Within pilot ranks, YHZ is regarded as a joke, with Mickey Mouse approaches, questionable snow clearing and surface reports that are so out of date, it becomes a “beer bet”. The only other airport in Canada that comes close to being a joke is YOW ...... our frigging nation’s capital!!!

But all the major airports have lovely terminals with waterfalls, artwork, creative displays, fabulous retail areas etc etc. All courtesy of those amazing not for profit airport authorities. Surely they know what’s best for the AIF paying passenger LMAO.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:10 pm

boeing767300 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
And still ONLY those airports?


As well as the Cat II airports......like YHM, YHZ, YMX, etc. Remember, there are not a lot of “major” airports in Canada.

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?

Within pilot ranks, YHZ is regarded as a joke, with Mickey Mouse approaches, questionable snow clearing and surface reports that are so out of date, it becomes a “beer bet”. The only other airport in Canada that comes close to being a joke is YOW ...... our frigging nation’s capital!!!

But all the major airports have lovely terminals with waterfalls, artwork, creative displays, fabulous retail areas etc etc. All courtesy of those amazing not for profit airport authorities. Surely they know what’s best for the AIF paying passenger LMAO.


I'd love to have somebody in the Harper government (yes, time machine) explain why safety spending with a role in the national air transport infrastructure needed to be funded (in part) by the airport and province for YYT.

https://stjohnsairport.com/wp-content/u ... ations.pdf

It's not like crap weather is a rarity at YHZ - it's not Tucson.
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:17 pm

longhauler wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?


This is a very good point. It always blows me away that I am stuck with RNAVs, especially in winter, for the two most frequent runways.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:33 pm

If they didn't have to pay rent maybe they'd have the money to tackle problems like this.
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:34 pm

Something else to be considered is the “approach ban”. In Canada, it is predicated on visibility alone. Namely, if one doesn’t have the required visibility, then the approach can’t even be attempted.

At the the time of westjet’s landing, the visibility was RVR 4000v5500. So legally, the only approaches they can do are the ILSs 14 and 23, or the CAT II ILS 23. Nothing else, not even RNAV / GPS approaches. So they had a choice of a right or left quartering tailwind, onto questionable runway conditions.

That is why the Air Canada A321, 10 minutes before them went to YUL. The Air Canada crew likely was aware of the “iffy” nature of YHZ, having flown into YHZ for 75+ years. The poor naive westjet crew probably thought they were dealing with professionals in YHZ. They’ll know next time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:01 pm

longhauler wrote:
Something else to be considered is the “approach ban”. In Canada, it is predicated on visibility alone. Namely, if one doesn’t have the required visibility, then the approach can’t even be attempted.

At the the time of westjet’s landing, the visibility was RVR 4000v5500. So legally, the only approaches they can do are the ILSs 14 and 23, or the CAT II ILS 23. Nothing else, not even RNAV / GPS approaches. So they had a choice of a right or left quartering tailwind, onto questionable runway conditions.

That is why the Air Canada A321, 10 minutes before them went to YUL. The Air Canada crew likely was aware of the “iffy” nature of YHZ, having flown into YHZ for 75+ years. The poor naive westjet crew probably thought they were dealing with professionals in YHZ. They’ll know next time.


As soon as I saw the Ceiling/Vis it became quite clear why they were attempting Rwy 14. I don't know what the CFRI was but I am sure it wasn't great. For me, the Captain gets the money for making the judgement call based on the conditions and it really shouldn't have anything to do with the controller. Now if he/she felt operational pressure to attempt an out of limits approach, then that is a whole other can of worms.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:13 pm

longhauler wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
And still ONLY those airports?


As well as the Cat II airports......like YHM, YHZ, YMX, etc. Remember, there are not a lot of “major” airports in Canada.

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?

Within pilot ranks, YHZ is regarded as a joke, with Mickey Mouse approaches, questionable snow clearing and surface reports that are so out of date, it becomes a “beer bet”. The only other airport in Canada that comes close to being a joke is YOW ...... our frigging nation’s capital!!!


If find your perspective fascinating! Having grown up in Halifax and flown into it countless times and always on AC, I've always been somewhat apprehensive during bad weather, first off as a passenger it's a rather creepy approach, absolutely nothing on the ground, totally blackness, no lights and during the day almost no civilization and nothing to get your bearings until you're basically on the ground.

I've always questioned the location as well. I'm aware it was chosen in the 1950's so that it wasn't prone to coastal low clouds and fog but I've always found the weather up at YHZ to be generally worse, with heavier snow, colder temps and far less visibility than is typical in the city.

I remember flying YUL - YHZ as a kid, in a snowstorm in the early 70s on an AC DC-9-30, white knuckle experience during the entire flight, we made two attempts to land in YHZ in blowing snow, after the second the captain told us we were diverting to Moncton, the crew then made final attempt @ YHZ, we landed VERY hard on rwy 23 and bounced 2x, my mom screamed and held on to the passenger across the aisle. All ended well but I remember it clear-as-day, hence can always relate to questionable conditions and rough landings and approaches to that crazy airport .
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:58 pm

Who’s call would it to prioritize adding a new ILS approach? The airport authority or NAV Canada or a combination of the two?
Dave/CYHZ
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:07 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Who’s call would it to prioritize adding a new ILS approach? The airport authority or NAV Canada or a combination of the two?

Funny you should mention that. The AIFs everyone talks about, actually have very little to do with the IFR approaches. So it isn’t really a matter of trading a waterfall or canoe in the lobby for an ILS.

As you correctly note, the approaches are “owned”, operated, tested and maintained by NavCanada.

Technically, one would have to lobby the government and/or the Minister of Transport to make improvements on the facilities. When I have written to the Minister, (as I have far too often), the answer I get is that the future is in enhanced GPS approaches and not more ILS approaches.

Fair ball, but low viz approaches and auto lands TODAY are the domain of the ILS. IMO an autoland in low viz conditions from a GPS based approach is still a long way off.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
airboss787
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:30 pm

Seems diversion might have been the best idea. But it seems to have just gone into the grass with no damage so probably the best worst outcome.
Star Alliance Gold
 
matt
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:37 pm

dr1980 wrote:
Not sure if it’s the same flights or not but they’ve actually been operating the 77W YYZ-YHZ once per day for a good chunk of December.


Indeed, there has been 1 77W per day of late, but three is exceptional.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
rbavfan
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:04 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Looks like the aircraft got a bit dirty. Also, there was no emergency evacuation.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/ ... ax-394367/


No it's the winter color scheme. Makes it easier to see when in snow.
 
Dominion301
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm

longhauler wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
And still ONLY those airports?


As well as the Cat II airports......like YHM, YHZ, YMX, etc. Remember, there are not a lot of “major” airports in Canada.

But, IMO, it is the lack of ILS approaches at YHZ that is the real issue. Almost every other airport in the maritimes has an eastern ILS approach. Likely because when the weather is bad, it is an eastern wind. Like ..... YQY, YQM, YSJ, YFC .... all within 30 minutes of YHZ, but not YHZ?

Within pilot ranks, YHZ is regarded as a joke, with Mickey Mouse approaches, questionable snow clearing and surface reports that are so out of date, it becomes a “beer bet”. The only other airport in Canada that comes close to being a joke is YOW ...... our frigging nation’s capital!!!


Another thing that would help YHZ is another 800-1000m of length to their secondary runway. Ironically at YOW 07/25 is over 600m shorter than 14/32, yet it's the busier of the two non-GA runways. However, it's still almost 100m longer than YHZ's 14/32.

Does anyone know if either of YOW's two ILS approaches are Cat II or are they both Cat l ?
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:32 pm

matt wrote:
Indeed, there has been 1 77W per day of late, but three is exceptional.


Wow, I didn’t have a chance to check flightaware before posting, that is indeed a lot of 77W’s for YHZ!
Dave/CYHZ
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:17 am

Dominion301 wrote:
Does anyone know if either of YOW's two ILS approaches are Cat II or are they both Cat l ?


YOW ILS 07 and 32 are both CAT I only.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:21 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
dr1980 wrote:
23 has an ILS Cat II, winds were out of 020 at the time. 05 and 32 are RNAV only.


I found this reference from 2016. Still true?

Only YVR, YYC, YYZ and YYT have CAT III A approaches in Canada.


CATIII weather conditions are very rare, except at YYT and maybe at YVR.

YYZ probably gets real CATIII conditions once or twice a year, tops.

Here at YUL, we only have a CATII, and require it maybe once or twice a year. In fact, the last time we were actually using the CATII on 6L was probably sometime in 2018.

The weather has to be pretty bad to not be able to land with a CATI ILS.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:34 pm

I wonder how often conditions at YHZ would require Cat II and how often when those conditions happen are the winds in a suitable direction to use 23?
Dave/CYHZ
 
YULACYYZ
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:16 pm

I am interested to know what will happened to the pilot after an instance like this one. What is the usual impact if any, on him or her, in regards to the airline and the proper authorities. Thank you for your time! Alain
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:45 pm

YULACYYZ wrote:
I am interested to know what will happened to the pilot after an instance like this one. What is the usual impact if any, on him or her, in regards to the airline and the proper authorities. Thank you for your time! Alain


Normal airline practice following any incident / accident is to relieve the crew from duty, with pay, pending an investigation. Disciplinary actions, if any, usually are the result of these investigations.

However, if the crew is found to be negligent, purposely contravening either SOPs or CARs, then often it is out of the hands of the airline.

In this case though, as it is the fifth runway excursion for westjet in the last 12 months, an internal review may result. Nothing to do with the authorities, just to solve and stop what may be an internal trend.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
YULACYYZ
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:00 pm

longhauler wrote:
YULACYYZ wrote:
I am interested to know what will happened to the pilot after an instance like this one. What is the usual impact if any, on him or her, in regards to the airline and the proper authorities. Thank you for your time! Alain


Normal airline practice following any incident / accident is to relieve the crew from duty, with pay, pending an investigation. Disciplinary actions, if any, usually are the result of these investigations.

However, if the crew is found to be negligent, purposely contravening either SOPs or CARs, then often it is out of the hands of the airline.

In this case though, as it is the fifth runway excursion for westjet in the last 12 months, an internal review may result. Nothing to do with the authorities, just to solve and stop what may be an internal trend.


Thank you! Very much appreciated. A
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:53 pm

I was listening to this unfold on LiveATC and I really felt for the crew member on the radio (and his counterpart by extension). He was of course, calm and professional, but I can only imagine how bad he felt having to make a call to ATC that they were off the runway.
Dave/CYHZ
 
dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:02 pm

Interestingly we’re in the midst of another winter storm here today and again winds are out of the north with low visibility, last few METARs:

SPECI CYHZ 081544Z 01017KT 3/8SM R14/3000FT/U SN VV005 M03/M03 A2945 RMK SN8 CIG VRB 3-7 PRESFR SLP983=
SPECI CYHZ 081530Z 01014KT 1/4SM R14/3000FT/N +SN VV003 M03/M03 A2948 RMK SN8 PRESFR SLP991=
SPECI CYHZ 081518Z 01011KT 1/2SM R14/3000FT/N SN VV004 M03/M03 A2949 RMK SN8 PRESFR SLP995=

I’m curious about the state of GPS as an ILS replacement based on Longhauler’s always informative comments in this thread.

Are there aircraft out there that could use GPS approaches as a full replacement for ILS yet or is that still to come? Or Is it even on the horizon yet?
Dave/CYHZ
 
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:26 pm

GPS approaches are evolving and getting more capable. Right now though, 1 mile viz is required to perform any of the GPS based approaches at YHZ. Unless one wanted to land with a tailwind, I don’t see a workable solution with the weather quoted.

Often airlines will send flights to YHZ hoping conditions will improve. (With a workable alternate and lots of “loitering” fuel). Not a bad idea as long as the winds aren’t too bad, keeping the ride comfortable. Namely, one doesn’t want to scare the passengers.

But play Devils Advocate here. Let’s say there was an ILS on 05 or 32 .... you still need acceptable runway surface conditions. The maximum allowable crosswind for contaminated runway conditions might preclude landing! Not to mention ..... getting the damned thing stopped!

All in all, YHZ is not for the faint of heart in winter. One saving grace is that ATC is great in YHZ. Very obliging and willing to help all they can.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:59 pm

The vis on LPV minimas on properly lit runways with an RVR is usually 1/2 mile (same as a CAT I ILS, and same DH as well). Ex. RNAV Z 07 at YOW.

The problem with YHZ, as longhauler said, is that the RNAV Z 05 LPV vis minima is 1 SM. The reason is that there is no RVR on rwy 05. Same problem at YOW rwy 25 & 14.

A quick and cheap solution would be to add an RVR and reduce the vis to 1/2 mile.

That would eliminate a good chunk of these problems at YHZ. At least on aircraft that are able to fly the LPV.
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dr1980
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:11 pm

Thanks guys. So are there many commercial airliners that can do LPV approaches? I’m curious that given the government response Longhauler noted about not building new ILS systems because GPS is the future, I’m wondering how far away are we from GPS being a true ILS replacement that can be broadly utilized, assuming airports have the needed infrastructure to get the 1/2 nm minimums? Seems like if it’s a long ways away then ILS still has a key role to play.

Interesting that airlines will send aircraft to YHZ hoping things improve...sounds like me planning outdoor activities and certainly supports the Maritime saying that if you don’t like the weather, just wait five minutes!
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longhauler
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Re: WestJet 248 Off the Runway at YHZ

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:35 pm

Understand though, GPS approaches with LPV minima are still restricted to 1/2 mile viz, (as correctly noted, with the proper ground equipment). Most newer aircraft can use LPV minima as allowed by each airline’s SOPs.

But ..... that’s still only 1/2 a mile. Often, that doesn’t cut it in the Maritimes or Newfoundland. (RVR 2600).

An ILS starts at RVR 2600 and goes lower! Down to 1800 with low viz procedures, but still Cat I. RVR 1200 for Cat II, RVR 600 for Cat IIIa, and in some instances right down to zero. But they ALL still require an ILS approach.

It is that regime below RVR 2600 down to zero, requiring an autoland that may be a while away yet when using GPS only based approaches. I was sceptical 30+ years ago when I did my first ILS Cat III approach and landing (in an A310 at LGW). I marvelled at the technology that was required .... so who knows, a GPS approach in zero/zero conditions to an autoland is certainly possible in the future.

But I do find it irritating when politicians (not pilots or engineers) today are using it as an “out” not to build ILS approaches when required now.
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