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Gulfstream500
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:06 pm

usflyguy wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:

So, honestly, you don’t know much about Southwest and their fare products? Wanna Get Away fares do not mean you board last, boarding is based on when you check in online, beginning 24 hours prior to departure. Passengers that book Anytime fares and Wanna Get Away fares check in at 24 hours prior to departure and they are assigned a boarding position at that time. A-list and A-list preferred passengers are checked in 36 hours prior to flight along with those that purchased “Early Bird”... “Early Bird” passengers may be on either Anytime or Wanna Get Away fares.


So, honestly, you did not read my post. I never said that you are going to 100% be the last person to board, just that there's a decent chance that you will board in the last group (Key word: no seat assignment). So be it if there are only two sections separated by fare. But hey, if bashing every poster who does not agree with your ideology makes you happy...


Actually, you said “ you’re last to board”... there is no “may”, “might”, “could be”, or any other qualifiers in your original post. So, yes, I did read your post and I responded accordingly. If you buy “Business Select” you are assigned a boarding position between A1-A15; everything else is up for grabs. If an A-list Preferred member buys a wanna get away fare, they could end up with A16. So, no, Wanna Get Away fares do not mean that you are going to be in the last group. I pointed out that you didn’t know about what you were posting about; that’s not “bashing”.


Actually, you still ignored part of the post: no seat assignments. You have not considered one stop no plane change, which at times can be the entire size of the A group (I’ve had it happen to me). And, again, you’re also ignoring the fact (which admittedly was stated in the second post) that there is only truly two boarding groups: business select, and everyone else. One’s first, one’s last. There’s no semilast or sort-of select in between (or, you could play the “but there’s A B and C! card, but I’d tell you in return that there’s 160 boarding groups due to the corresponding numbers). If I wanted to say that you are the last person to board, I would have said that you are the last person to board. Also, saying that somebody does not know what they are talking about (like you did) is 100% bashing them.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1809
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:14 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
gen2stew wrote:
A) If you find basic economy so abhorrent dont book it.
B) WN has quite a few city pairs where business pax bring nothing but a computer bag because they do a round trip the same day. If you dont need to bring 2 50lb bags,why pay for it?
C) WN has maybe 5 "good" seats on the -700. The rest are all the same.

Much ado about nothing.


I have no intention of paying more than the lowest available fare, and now that fare no longer has seat assignments, checked bags or changes available. The airlines are not trying to give passengers a discount; they’re trying to take away something they already had in the past. The reason I fly Southwest is that I no longer get checked bags and seat assignments for free on the other majors. I’d have to think twice if they did start filing more restrictive fares.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Also, you have decided to vote with your wallet, as have most other passengers; THIS is what prompted the airlines to remove what was once included and start the "a la carte" service.
Pay only for what you use. Who needs 2 checked bags every time they fly domestic? Who needs a full meal service on a 1-hour flight (OK, maybe 2-hour flight)? Etc. Personally, I don't; and I don't see why I should pay for those service.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 687
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:20 pm

SWA will also eventually add fees too, its inevitable...
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8571
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:20 pm

What does WN offer different from the legacies that Basic Economy would ruin them? Besides no change fees and no baggage fees, WN is really a basic economy airline. Granted, most of their flights are under 3 hours so the need for in-seat power is almost irrelevant.

My idea for BE with WN is what has already been described: a reduction of free bags (either 1 free bag or pay to check bags), guaranteed C 31-60 (or D if they ever implement it) boarding group, a reduction of RR points (maybe by 50%), and non-refundable/non-changeable fare. But how does this help the bottom line?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8571
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:25 pm

planecane wrote:
If they made it a "D" boarding group they'd have to make it unavailable to families with children. It wouldn't be fair to let families book a basic fare but then board before "B" so they can sit together. They'd create a mess if they tried to make it so basic economy families couldn't board with other families.

Not necessarily. They'd be stuck with preselected seats. In this case, seat the families all the way at the back, and seat the other BE folks immediately in front of them. They're the buffer between crying babies and relative peace.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2545
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:28 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
So it’s a scam for airlines to raise fares?


To disguise a fare raise as E- and sell it to the masses as "you're getting a discount for not checking in a bag or lugging a carry-on or wanting a seat assignment beforehand" is a SCAM!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:40 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Honestly, wanna getaway on WN is basically basic economy (no pun intended)... you’re last to board, don’t have a seat assignment, and will likely be separated from the other members of your party. Currently, the only difference between basic economy on the legacies and WN is the baggage fees.

In short, if they want to make basic economy, they should just charge for bags.


So, honestly, you don’t know much about Southwest and their fare products? Wanna Get Away fares do not mean you board last, boarding is based on when you check in online, beginning 24 hours prior to departure. Passengers that book Anytime fares and Wanna Get Away fares check in at 24 hours prior to departure and they are assigned a boarding position at that time. A-list and A-list preferred passengers are checked in 36 hours prior to flight along with those that purchased “Early Bird”... “Early Bird” passengers may be on either Anytime or Wanna Get Away fares.


So, honestly, you did not read my post. I never said that you are going to 100% be the last person to board, just that there's a decent chance that you will board in the last group (Key word: no seat assignment). So be it if there are only two sections separated by fare. But hey, if bashing every poster who does not agree with your ideology makes you happy...


The last time I flew anywhere it was with AA in basic economy, and we did indeed board with the last boarding group. Just putting this out there to back you up, or at least to try and back you up anyhow.

I would imagine WN employing something similar, but I always thought their "wanna get away" fares were essentially their "basic economy" option, as others have stated.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4333
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:53 pm

When it comes to growth WN ain't going anywhere until late this year. It 'don't' have no planes. 2021 will see planned and hoped for routes as all those scheduled MAXs arrive and are integrated into the fleet.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
flyingcat
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:06 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
l87e wrote:
Southwest has traditionally not participated in the GDSs (except for basic selling in Sabre) and has not been available in search engines. They want their sales process to concern them and them only.


https://www.businesstravelnews.com/Distribution/Southwest-Will-Put-Content-on-GDSs

Clearly some of the strategies of old, are dying, if GDS sales are in development.

Look at this from the WN view and you can see why they may be second guessing their long strategy. Younger LCCs are growing rapidly, legacies are far more resilient and both can offer a price point they cannot match, even though the service level is low. B6 is on the verge of breaking into transatlantic feed without splitting the revenue. I don't think that they are going to go belly up, but clearly they are concerned that momentum is shifting and they need to keep up.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 367
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:14 pm

I don't fly WN but have many friends who do. The reason why they do? 2 free checked bags. If their lowest fare will be just like everyone else... I don't see much reason to fly WN over a legacy with a better onboard product, or F9 or Spirit where you can pay even less and then pay for what you need.

ie. Flying on a trip to Vegas in a few weeks. First time without status on DL. Paid $140 to fly Frontier, and added $140 for round trip to include stretch seating, early boarding and free bags. I am content for a a NYC to LAS trip, especially since I would be paying more for a DL fare and then pay as much to add premium economy.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:34 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
When it comes to growth WN ain't going anywhere until late this year. It 'don't' have no planes. 2021 will see planned and hoped for routes as all those scheduled MAXs arrive and are integrated into the fleet.



It makes you wonder why they are throwing money on that bonfire in LGB at a time like this. Leave EWR, yet act greedy for any slot B6 abandons in LGB.

Perplexing
 
drdisque
Posts: 1350
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:48 pm

I think a good start would be that the lowest fare is fully nonrefundable non-changeable. Very simple change, very easy to understand.
 
bob75013
Posts: 997
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:

WN needs to do someone to place a fare on search engines to match Spirit. As much as we all like something for nothing, costs must be reduced to be competitive.


Lightsaber


Why???????????????

Southwest's load factors are about the same as the majors it competes with. It's profitability is better than the majors it competes with.


The ability to book WN tickets on Orbitz get Southwest nothing -- except the cost that Orbitz booking will bring WN.
 
bob75013
Posts: 997
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:54 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
SWA will also eventually add fees too, its inevitable...


Really???

WN's GPM is already better than about everyone else's -- and "no fees" is a marketing plan that draws in customers by the tens of millions. Why alienate that customer base when you are alreaedy the most profiable airline.

There is a reason WN flies more people in north america than anyone else. Why? See the paragraph immediately above this one.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:03 pm

flyingcat wrote:
Clearly some of the strategies of old, are dying, if GDS sales are in development.

Look at this from the WN view and you can see why they may be second guessing their long strategy. Younger LCCs are growing rapidly, legacies are far more resilient and both can offer a price point they cannot match, even though the service level is low. B6 is on the verge of breaking into transatlantic feed without splitting the revenue. I don't think that they are going to go belly up, but clearly they are concerned that momentum is shifting and they need to keep up.


While the majority of airports served by WN are already served by at least one ULCC, there are still some airports in the contiguous U.S. such as AMA, DAL, HOU, LGB, LBB, MHT, MAF, and ECP that aren't currently served by any ULCC's.

One move WN could make is improving access to domestic leisure markets not served by any ULCC's such as Corpus Christi, Kahului, Kona, Lihue, and Panama City (FL) from more of WN's domestic network.

WN will also probably stick around due to WN already having an established customer base in markets where AA, DL, or UA do not have hubs or focus cities such as AUS, MCI, LAS, MCO, BNA, MSY, PDX, SMF, STL, SAT, SNA, and TPA.
 
planecane
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:09 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
planecane wrote:
If they made it a "D" boarding group they'd have to make it unavailable to families with children. It wouldn't be fair to let families book a basic fare but then board before "B" so they can sit together. They'd create a mess if they tried to make it so basic economy families couldn't board with other families.

Not necessarily. They'd be stuck with preselected seats. In this case, seat the families all the way at the back, and seat the other BE folks immediately in front of them. They're the buffer between crying babies and relative peace.


The whole reason that they do the "family boarding" in between A & B is because by the time you get to the last half or more of the C group, there aren't seats together anymore.
 
ethernal
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:26 pm

jplatts wrote:
flyingcat wrote:
Clearly some of the strategies of old, are dying, if GDS sales are in development.

Look at this from the WN view and you can see why they may be second guessing their long strategy. Younger LCCs are growing rapidly, legacies are far more resilient and both can offer a price point they cannot match, even though the service level is low. B6 is on the verge of breaking into transatlantic feed without splitting the revenue. I don't think that they are going to go belly up, but clearly they are concerned that momentum is shifting and they need to keep up.


While the majority of airports served by WN are already served by at least one ULCC, there are still some airports in the contiguous U.S. such as AMA, DAL, HOU, LGB, LBB, MHT, MAF, and ECP that aren't currently served by any ULCC's.

One move WN could make is improving access to domestic leisure markets not served by any ULCC's such as Corpus Christi, Kahului, Kona, Lihue, and Panama City (FL) from more of WN's domestic network.

WN will also probably stick around due to WN already having an established customer base in markets where AA, DL, or UA do not have hubs or focus cities such as AUS, MCI, LAS, MCO, BNA, MSY, PDX, SMF, STL, SAT, SNA, and TPA.


I think the overall point that flyingcat and others are making is that Southwest is at a decision point of what they want to be. No one is saying that they are in financial trouble - they are still a highly profitable airline - but finding growth is increasingly challenging for them. And unsurprisingly strategies start to change when you can't get top line growth like they used to. They are growing no faster than the US3 (more or less) from a revenue perspective. That is new to Southwest - historically they grew revenue much faster than the US3 (...or US6 or whatever it used to be back in the day).

Some of that is just due to their scale - they're now a $20B+ a year company.. every percentage point higher is harder than it was when you were $5 or $10B. But a lot of it is a consequence of market saturation using their traditional strategy combined with increasing competition from ULCC on the low end.

Fun fact: Spirit Airlines grew revenues by the same as Southwest did last year - about $450M - except on less than $4B of revenue base to Southwest's $20B. Delta grew by nearly $2B - 4x faster than WN despite being only 2x larger.

I know that a portion of this can be attributed to the MAX issue constraining their ability to grow capacity, but this is a trend that has been forming for a long time - really since the early 2010's.

WN is stuck in the middle - and they're running out of routes to grow into with their current fleet strategy.

If WN wants to grow by even 5% a year - rather than the anemic 3-4% they've been doing the past 7 years - they need to start changing their strategy. Being listed on the GDS is one of those steps. This thread is one of those steps as well.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:30 pm

planecane wrote:
The whole reason that they do the "family boarding" in between A & B is because by the time you get to the last half or more of the C group, there aren't seats together anymore.

I realize that. What I'm saying is that if a family buys the equivalent of BE tickets, they don't get to pick where they sit. Put them at the very back of the plane and place the other single BE folks in front of them, also at the rear of the plane. Essentially, BE folks are at the back, family or single.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
jplatts
Posts: 3698
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:35 pm

ethernal wrote:
I know that a portion of this can be attributed to the MAX issue constraining their ability to grow capacity, but this is a trend that has been forming for a long time - really since the early 2010's.

WN is stuck in the middle - and they're running out of routes to grow into with their current fleet strategy.

If WN wants to grow by even 5% a year - rather than the anemic 3-4% they've been doing the past 7 years - they need to start changing their strategy. Being listed on the GDS is one of those steps. This thread is one of those steps as well.


WN can still expand in markets such as CVG and RIC with its current business model, fare structure, and fleet strategy.
 
ethernal
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:12 pm

jplatts wrote:
ethernal wrote:
I know that a portion of this can be attributed to the MAX issue constraining their ability to grow capacity, but this is a trend that has been forming for a long time - really since the early 2010's.

WN is stuck in the middle - and they're running out of routes to grow into with their current fleet strategy.

If WN wants to grow by even 5% a year - rather than the anemic 3-4% they've been doing the past 7 years - they need to start changing their strategy. Being listed on the GDS is one of those steps. This thread is one of those steps as well.


WN can still expand in markets such as CVG and RIC with its current business model, fare structure, and fleet strategy.


Expanding in third-tier markets like CVG and RIC will not get WN from $20B to $30B.
 
invertalon
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:29 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:14 pm

I wouldn't be against a more 'bare' fare, as long as the existing "wanna get away" fare doesn't change at all in pricing, baggage allowances, etc...

If the bare-fare reduces baggage allowances only with a slight price reduction, no biggie. It just depends how they do it, if they do.
 
jplatts
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:36 pm

ethernal wrote:
Expanding in third-tier markets like CVG and RIC will not get WN from $20B to $30B.


While I agree with your point, WN expanding in third-tier markets such as CVG and RIC would (a) increase WN's market share in these markets, (b) give passengers 1-stop connecting access to additional destinations on WN, (c) provide access to markets such as CVG and RIC from more places in contiguous in the U.S. on WN, and (d) would bring in additional revenue to WN.

Even though ABQ is a smaller WN station than it was at its peak, WN still has a significantly bigger presence at ABQ than it does in most of the other third-tier markets served by WN. WN also still carries more passengers out of ABQ than it does out of other second-tier and third-tier markets served by WN.
 
bob75013
Posts: 997
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:57 pm

ethernal wrote:
jplatts wrote:
ethernal wrote:
I know that a portion of this can be attributed to the MAX issue constraining their ability to grow capacity, but this is a trend that has been forming for a long time - really since the early 2010's.

WN is stuck in the middle - and they're running out of routes to grow into with their current fleet strategy.

If WN wants to grow by even 5% a year - rather than the anemic 3-4% they've been doing the past 7 years - they need to start changing their strategy. Being listed on the GDS is one of those steps. This thread is one of those steps as well.


WN can still expand in markets such as CVG and RIC with its current business model, fare structure, and fleet strategy.


Expanding in third-tier markets like CVG and RIC will not get WN from $20B to $30B.


Increasing frequencies will be another source of growth. DAL is limited to 195 departures/day. By 2014, when WN can grow in Dallas without forfeiting DAL gates,
I would expect to see upwards of 300 flights/day either at DAL or at a combination of DAL and some other field. Today, There are quite a few cities with only one or two nonstops a day service from DAL.
 
planecane
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:00 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
planecane wrote:
The whole reason that they do the "family boarding" in between A & B is because by the time you get to the last half or more of the C group, there aren't seats together anymore.

I realize that. What I'm saying is that if a family buys the equivalent of BE tickets, they don't get to pick where they sit. Put them at the very back of the plane and place the other single BE folks in front of them, also at the rear of the plane. Essentially, BE folks are at the back, family or single.


Personally I think that all family boarders should be required to sit in the last 5 rows now. The reason they are allowed to board before B group is so they can sit together. It shouldn't allow the to get a better seat selection than the B group. Also, it would be nice to put the crying babies together so they disturb the smallest percentage of the cabin.
 
flyingcat
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:02 pm

bob75013 wrote:
The ability to book WN tickets on Orbitz get Southwest nothing -- except the cost that Orbitz booking will bring WN.


Actually this move could be very prophetic based on what comes next. Expedia and Priceline will never allow booking of WN tickets unless they get a commission, Southwest has. Loading into the GDS will help immensely in access the corporate business market but is essentially an extension of current policy.

Now, if WN were to sign an agreement with an online travel agency, essentially lots of traffic but at a cost, then the sky is falling and all bets are off.

A BE fare on WN would have to heavily restrict check bags, carryon bags, possibly IFE and absolutely the last to board, WN will learn that the trick is to make the ticket so low that buy up options become so enticing that they end up making the lost revenue of the sale fare.

Changing strategies will be difficult, they may stumble along the way, but even studying the topic means there is some early concern. Even the most successful business fail when they don't evolve to changes in the market, ULCCs are not shrinking, legacies are not poor, and as we all have wondered, what if the Skybus secondary airport model had been done without the CMH hub.

Looks like we will find out soon enough, I always wondered what could happen if we the US had a proper Ryanair flying to San Bernadino CA or to Lakeland Florida.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:02 pm

Just based on the names, my money is on all them doing is introducing a no change/non refundable fare.
 
planecane
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:04 pm

invertalon wrote:
I wouldn't be against a more 'bare' fare, as long as the existing "wanna get away" fare doesn't change at all in pricing, baggage allowances, etc...

If the bare-fare reduces baggage allowances only with a slight price reduction, no biggie. It just depends how they do it, if they do.

This will not happen. If WN decides to do this it will be to increase revenue. If they do what you suggest, it will be more likely to reduce revenue since many people flying on wanna get away fares are just looking for the cheapest fare. Adding a cheaper fare class will not increase load factor enough to offset the percentage booking the cheapest fare instead of wanna get away.
 
indcwby
Posts: 332
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:32 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:18 pm

I see nothing wrong with them going this route.

- Last group to board
- No carry on baggage
- 1 checked bag for a nominal fee ($10)

Reality is that that the low prices now would be the Basic Economy fare and raise the prices of economy.
A319, A320, A330, A340, B717, B727, B737, B747, B757, B767, B777, CRJ7, DC10, MD88, MD11, E145, E175
"Always remember that you fly an airplane with your head, not your hands."
 
Mboyle1988
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:38 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:42 pm

toltommy wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
I have no intention of paying more than the lowest available fare, and now that fare no longer has seat assignments, checked bags or changes available. The airlines are not trying to give passengers a discount; they’re trying to take away something they already had in the past. The reason I fly Southwest is that I no longer get checked bags and seat assignments for free on the other majors. I’d have to think twice if they did start filing more restrictive fares.


1. You do realize that when factored for inflation, on average air travel is cheaper than it was 20 years ago? And that includes bag fees? (source: DOT fare survey) So while the airlines may have removed a perk from the past, it was a perk that the average airfare no longer supported.
2. Do you always check 2 bags on every WN flight you take? If not, you are paying for something you don't use.
3. You still don't get a seat assignment on WN, so thats a wash at best.

Hey vote with your wallet, do what you want. But I bet that in many cases, you are buying products on your WN flight that you don't even use.


Business is more than an economics equation. The best companies exact a premium for their brand, which is their relationship with the customer. Branding is inherently irrational and cannot be understood by math and logic.

I can afford to pay for first class seats at this stage in my life. I started to take American over Southwest on cross cou try trips last year for this reason. But they still have my business on flights under 4 hours. I put up with the discomfort because I have been flying Southwest since I was five years old. I love everything about the company. If they started charging for bags or Change fees, i would be pissed off. I only check bags when on family trips (I have two kids under 3). But it’s just the violation of the brand promise. I go out of my way and spend more money for an inferior product in some ways because I believe in what Southwest stands for and their values.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 324
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:58 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
I started flying WN because they *didn't* pull the Basic Economy shenanigans. I'll have no reason to fly them over AA or UA if they choose to go down this path.


How is it shenanigans? If you don’t want basic economy don’t book it? What am I missing here?


The fact that basic economy is just a ploy to get you to pay more for regular economy?

What used to be a $300 ticket in regular economy is now an unbundled $300 ticket in basic economy, while regular economy is now $350.

Is that too difficult for you to see?
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:30 pm

US carriers are the pioneers for many charges:
- AA: Checked baggage fee
- UA: Buy on board
- DL: Basic economy
- NW: Seat selection
- US: Charge for soft drinks
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:06 pm

WN Basic Economy needs to be.
1 Free checked Bag and 1 small personal item that fits under your seat only.
Any extra Items At the gate will be stopped sent to the CSA gate agent and must pay $100 each. Or denied boarding .
All BE will be in a new boarding group D regardless of the flights booking (load). This will help Ops/boarding agent police carryon restrictions.
Boarding passes will ONLY be issued at Baggage checkin on day of departure. No mobile option available.
All checkins must be done Before 1 Hr on Domestic and 2Hr on international. After that reservation are cancelled and are Not refundable.
Fares ONLY available on Nonstops flight.
One stop and connecting flights not sold.
NO Rapid Reward credits offered.
Funds can't be transferred.
WN travel vouchers can't be used on basic economy fares.
Basics economy fares can't be sold or linked to any other fare types reservations must be separate. ( One person can't BUY BS and everyone else buys BE.
All ticket changes must be done 48hr in advance for a FEE.

Help drive more early bird sales and BS sales.
Take away one plus carryons from Wanna get away fares also offer only 2 free checked bags and one small personal item.
Upgrade early bird allows you one+ one.
This eliminates the Let's bring everything on Bin hog last to board C group.
( yes there occasionally connecting passengers running late from IROC but with elimination of one plus one For lowest paid tickets should help save room for late holding connecting paxs)

That's my thought of what they should do.
Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:20 pm

May have to limit how many Basic Economy you can sell per flight, because if those are your restrictions for a lower fare, folks will jump on it.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:

WN needs to do someone to place a fare on search engines to match Spirit. As much as we all like something for nothing, costs must be reduced to be competitive.



Lightsaber



Southwest ain't going to put it's fares on search engines for the general public, but for business travel offices it's happening now via Amadeus and Travelport

https://www.businesstravelerusa.com/bus ... rt-amadeus

Southwest is more interested in getting more business travelers than bottom feeders.
 
Bradin
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:41 pm

I'm stirring the pot here with this question.

Why are we assuming it's a race to the bottom, and not a way to add value to the top?
 
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dabpit
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:41 pm

There will absolutely be no basic economy but there may be another fare product.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:43 pm

par13del wrote:
May have to limit how many Basic Economy you can sell per flight, because if those are your restrictions for a lower fare, folks will jump on it.

I was gonna comment that on my first post. There will have to be a limit. Alternatively, make BS tickets and A-List status more enticing. Items such as priority baggage handling (from check-in to baggage claim), more points, and free internet connection and premium content.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
airboss787
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:14 pm

I feel it would add some complications to their simple system but I find that idea to be a pretty good one. They offer so much right now that if they take some away and reduce prices, they would still offer more than others in the same class. If they can implement it smoothly, I can see it as a good change for them. I would rather have them do this than reduce the frills they offer to all pax.
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EA CO AS
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:49 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Just based on the names, my money is on all them doing is introducing a no change/non refundable fare.


And, perhaps, last to board. But the thing everyone is missing about Basic Economy or the equivalent is that it's not so much about matching others, but rather, giving customers an opportunity to buy-up into something else, at low increments of $10-$30 per segment, maximum. If you take what's currently the lowest fare they offer and label it "LUV Basic" or whatever, making it completely nonrefundable and non-changeable, boarding in a new "D" group, but then offer alongside it a changeable but still nonrefundable fare that allows boarding in the A-C groups depending on your check-in time for just $10-$30 more, depending on the market, you've given your customers a buy-up option that many will choose while not outright killing demand like an overall fare increase does. And if/when a ULCC like NK comes into your markets trying to buy share away from you, the "LUV Basic" or equivalent is the fare bucket you use to match them, not your main cabin/Wanna Get Away fares.

You don't lose out to fare sales by stupid competitors, and the added buy-up incremental revenue, for an airline the size of WN, would likely equal somewhere in the neighborhood of $300-$400M in added profit annually without killing customer loyalty.
Last edited by EA CO AS on Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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intotheair
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:53 pm

The biggest value WN offers isn’t bags – it’s the lack of a change fee. Even if you get a normal economy ticket on the legacies, the change fee is $200+ and the difference in fare. That alone effectively makes normal economy tickets “use it or lose it” conditions, much like basic economy.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:07 pm

intotheair wrote:
The biggest value WN offers isn’t bags – it’s the lack of a change fee. Even if you get a normal economy ticket on the legacies, the change fee is $200+ and the difference in fare. That alone effectively makes normal economy tickets “use it or lose it” conditions, much like basic economy.


Only when the fare itself is equal to or lower than the change fee. WN could implement a modest $25-$50 change fee and still be ahead, but they'd lose out on the ability to market themselves as not having fees.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:30 pm

bob75013 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

WN needs to do someone to place a fare on search engines to match Spirit. As much as we all like something for nothing, costs must be reduced to be competitive.



Lightsaber



Southwest ain't going to put it's fares on search engines for the general public, but for business travel offices it's happening now via Amadeus and Travelport

https://www.businesstravelerusa.com/bus ... rt-amadeus

Southwest is more interested in getting more business travelers than bottom feeders.

You are right. But those bottom feeders are now on the corporate travel sites. The difference is, we are priced in a bag or carry-on.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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N776AU
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:44 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
So it’s a scam for airlines to raise fares?


To disguise a fare raise as E- and sell it to the masses as "you're getting a discount for not checking in a bag or lugging a carry-on or wanting a seat assignment beforehand" is a SCAM!

That’s all basic economy has ever been. We can stop the thread right there.
Careful, doors are closing, and will not reopen. Please wait for the next train.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:18 pm

bob75013 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

WN needs to do someone to place a fare on search engines to match Spirit. As much as we all like something for nothing, costs must be reduced to be competitive.


Lightsaber


Why???????????????

Southwest's load factors are about the same as the majors it competes with. It's profitability is better than the majors it competes with.


The ability to book WN tickets on Orbitz get Southwest nothing -- except the cost that Orbitz booking will bring WN.


skiplagged.com and kiwi.com includes WN ticket prices, though not by the choice of WN.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
usflyguy
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:18 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

So, honestly, you did not read my post. I never said that you are going to 100% be the last person to board, just that there's a decent chance that you will board in the last group (Key word: no seat assignment). So be it if there are only two sections separated by fare. But hey, if bashing every poster who does not agree with your ideology makes you happy...


Actually, you said “ you’re last to board”... there is no “may”, “might”, “could be”, or any other qualifiers in your original post. So, yes, I did read your post and I responded accordingly. If you buy “Business Select” you are assigned a boarding position between A1-A15; everything else is up for grabs. If an A-list Preferred member buys a wanna get away fare, they could end up with A16. So, no, Wanna Get Away fares do not mean that you are going to be in the last group. I pointed out that you didn’t know about what you were posting about; that’s not “bashing”.


Actually, you still ignored part of the post: no seat assignments. You have not considered one stop no plane change, which at times can be the entire size of the A group (I’ve had it happen to me). And, again, you’re also ignoring the fact (which admittedly was stated in the second post) that there is only truly two boarding groups: business select, and everyone else. One’s first, one’s last. There’s no semilast or sort-of select in between (or, you could play the “but there’s A B and C! card, but I’d tell you in return that there’s 160 boarding groups due to the corresponding numbers). If I wanted to say that you are the last person to board, I would have said that you are the last person to board. Also, saying that somebody does not know what they are talking about (like you did) is 100% bashing them.


Ok. You may be the 16th person to board a plane that holds 175 with boarding position A16, but you’re in the last group to board. Business Select and others. You could also be the 3rd person to board if you’re an A-lister on a Wanna Get Away fare with the A18 boarding pass and there were no business select passengers... which happens occasionally. So, yeah, your original post totally makes sense with the thought that Wanna Get Away fares are somehow like basic economy because you’re last to board, which would be like Group 9, behind 120 of your closes friends on AA, UA, DL, etc... Never mind those A19-C70 passengers behind you. Your statement makes absolutely zero sense, since you can be in the last group, yet be the 16th person to board an aircraft that holds 175. But you were correct in that you will be in the last group, since there are only two and the first group is up to 15 passengers that bought Business Select.

As far as 45-60 through passengers (size of the A boarding group), that used to happen when Southwest operated within the Wright Amendment parameters and you were traveling to DAL from one of the bordering states... it’s now a rare exception to have more than 20 through passengers.

And you are correct, there are no seat assignments, but a Wanna Get Away fare doesn’t mean your going to be in a middle seat at the back of the plane if you check in at 24 hours prior... whereas BE fares on other airlines, you get your seat assignment upon arrival at the airport. If WN held out boarding positions for Wanna Get Away fares until you checked in at the gate, that would be when you would be last to board.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 478
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:03 am

usflyguy wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
usflyguy wrote:

Actually, you said “ you’re last to board”... there is no “may”, “might”, “could be”, or any other qualifiers in your original post. So, yes, I did read your post and I responded accordingly. If you buy “Business Select” you are assigned a boarding position between A1-A15; everything else is up for grabs. If an A-list Preferred member buys a wanna get away fare, they could end up with A16. So, no, Wanna Get Away fares do not mean that you are going to be in the last group. I pointed out that you didn’t know about what you were posting about; that’s not “bashing”.


Actually, you still ignored part of the post: no seat assignments. You have not considered one stop no plane change, which at times can be the entire size of the A group (I’ve had it happen to me). And, again, you’re also ignoring the fact (which admittedly was stated in the second post) that there is only truly two boarding groups: business select, and everyone else. One’s first, one’s last. There’s no semilast or sort-of select in between (or, you could play the “but there’s A B and C! card, but I’d tell you in return that there’s 160 boarding groups due to the corresponding numbers). If I wanted to say that you are the last person to board, I would have said that you are the last person to board. Also, saying that somebody does not know what they are talking about (like you did) is 100% bashing them.


Ok. You may be the 16th person to board a plane that holds 175 with boarding position A16, but you’re in the last group to board. Business Select and others. You could also be the 3rd person to board if you’re an A-lister on a Wanna Get Away fare with the A18 boarding pass and there were no business select passengers... which happens occasionally. So, yeah, your original post totally makes sense with the thought that Wanna Get Away fares are somehow like basic economy because you’re last to board, which would be like Group 9, behind 120 of your closes friends on AA, UA, DL, etc... Never mind those A19-C70 passengers behind you. Your statement makes absolutely zero sense, since you can be in the last group, yet be the 16th person to board an aircraft that holds 175. But you were correct in that you will be in the last group, since there are only two and the first group is up to 15 passengers that bought Business Select.

As far as 45-60 through passengers (size of the A boarding group), that used to happen when Southwest operated within the Wright Amendment parameters and you were traveling to DAL from one of the bordering states... it’s now a rare exception to have more than 20 through passengers.

And you are correct, there are no seat assignments, but a Wanna Get Away fare doesn’t mean your going to be in a middle seat at the back of the plane if you check in at 24 hours prior... whereas BE fares on other airlines, you get your seat assignment upon arrival at the airport. If WN held out boarding positions for Wanna Get Away fares until you checked in at the gate, that would be when you would be last to board.


Glad to see that you’ve looked at all the possibilities...

Wanna Get Away fare doesn’t mean your going to be in a middle seat at the back of the plane if you check in at 24 hours prior...


It also does not on American, Delta, or United’s BE.

Never mind those A19-C70 passengers behind you. Your statement makes absolutely zero sense, since you can be in the last group, yet be the 16th person to board an aircraft that holds 175. But you were correct in that you will be in the last group, since there are only two and the first group is up to 15 passengers that bought Business Select.


The entire aircraft can book BE on the big three. Also similar to the big three, you must pay more to board early. There’s another airline that offers basic economy to all of its passengers, except for first class. It’s called spirit.

If WN held out boarding positions for Wanna Get Away fares until you checked in at the gate, that would be when you would be last to board.


That’s what they do, except for anytime and business select.

As far as 45-60 through passengers (size of the A boarding group), that used to happen when Southwest operated within the Wright Amendment parameters and you were traveling to DAL from one of the bordering states... it’s now a rare exception to have more than 20 through passengers


It’s a different story in Atlanta, that’s for sure...
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:13 am

This thread (like many) boils down to:

A) I like flying Brand A Airlines so I will defend their practices, or;
B) I don't like flying Brand A Airlines so I will not defend their practices, or;
C) I hate all Brand Airlines so I will hate on them all...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:03 am

There were two articles published today on Travel Pulse and Simple Flying that said that WN will not offer Basic Economy fares while Gary Kelly is the CEO of WN.

 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:12 am

Mboyle1988 wrote:
toltommy wrote:
usdcaguy wrote:
I have no intention of paying more than the lowest available fare, and now that fare no longer has seat assignments, checked bags or changes available. The airlines are not trying to give passengers a discount; they’re trying to take away something they already had in the past. The reason I fly Southwest is that I no longer get checked bags and seat assignments for free on the other majors. I’d have to think twice if they did start filing more restrictive fares.


1. You do realize that when factored for inflation, on average air travel is cheaper than it was 20 years ago? And that includes bag fees? (source: DOT fare survey) So while the airlines may have removed a perk from the past, it was a perk that the average airfare no longer supported.
2. Do you always check 2 bags on every WN flight you take? If not, you are paying for something you don't use.
3. You still don't get a seat assignment on WN, so thats a wash at best.

Hey vote with your wallet, do what you want. But I bet that in many cases, you are buying products on your WN flight that you don't even use.


Business is more than an economics equation. The best companies exact a premium for their brand, which is their relationship with the customer. Branding is inherently irrational and cannot be understood by math and logic.

I can afford to pay for first class seats at this stage in my life. I started to take American over Southwest on cross cou try trips last year for this reason. But they still have my business on flights under 4 hours. I put up with the discomfort because I have been flying Southwest since I was five years old. I love everything about the company. If they started charging for bags or Change fees, i would be pissed off. I only check bags when on family trips (I have two kids under 3). But it’s just the violation of the brand promise. I go out of my way and spend more money for an inferior product in some ways because I believe in what Southwest stands for and their values.


I agree that Southwest has a brand promise, and that is to be the carrier they’ve always been. Granted, regular WN fares seem to have gone up tremendously the past decade, but they are still very competitive in many cases.

I grew up flying Southwest as well and my entire family still flies them almost exclusively. It’s pretty much the same carrier as always but without the red hot boots.
 
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PITingres
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Re: Southwest May Be Considering Basic Economy

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:58 am

Bradin wrote:
I'm stirring the pot here with this question.

Why are we assuming it's a race to the bottom, and not a way to add value to the top?


Actually, that was the impression I got from the survey. There were no details about service levels, the survey was all about marketing and naming; but my sense was that there was going to be a new mid-level or high-level service.

I guess we'll see what happens.
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