Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
lightmac
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:56 pm

LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:01 pm

Lufthansa-Group released their new schedule and it shows the massiveness of the German domestic market. Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily! Actually, there are eleven connections that could be called a Germany Shuttle with over ten departures each weekday in each direction. They are: Munich-Berlin, -Hamburg, -Frankfurt, -Dusseldorf, -Cologne as well as Berlin-Dusseldorf, Cologne, -Frankfurt and Stuttgart as well as Hamburg-Stuttgart and -Frankfurt. Munich is king (beating Frankfurt interestingly) with over 140 daily domestic flights. Altogether, the group serves 18 domestic airports. This is not counting easyjet and some other airlines and their domestic network in Germany. Does this make the German domestic network the busiest/densest for a relatively small country, because it is so poly-central? And why does Lufthansa not brag about this performance in ads or call the shuttle a "Shuttle" like AF did with La Navette and Iberia does with the "puente aereo"?
 
Noshow
Posts: 1669
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:14 pm

Well Eurowings is not always something to brag about. Many routes and entire airports have been downgraded from LH mainline to their subsidiary EW. Lufthansa should better make Swiss it's role model for reliability, service and standards.
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:23 pm

Well, Lufthansa has now more or less a monopoly on the German domestic market. No more Air Berlin, Ryanair and Easyjet don't fly domestic routes at all. The only competition LH/EW has is Flixbus and long distance trains, mostly by Deutsche Bahn.

Besides, all domestic routes apart from/to FRA and MUC have been swapped from LH to EW, even the Cityline-routes.

And contrary to your statement, some long running Lufthansa/Eurowings-routes are being reduced or shut down completely. Last year, TXL-NUE has been first temporarily stopped and than permanently shut down, because the new high speed train line Nuremberg-Erfurt-Leipzig-Berlin is now a better alternative (even though the DB raised their prices, once Eurowings had withdrawn). This year I was looking for flight NUE-DUS on Saturday morning and DUS-NUE on Sunday evening. Both flights have been there for the last few years (I took them), but this year, the is NO Saturday flight at all between NUE and DUS and on Sunday, the last flight goes in the afternoon.
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
by188b
Posts: 561
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:46 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:36 pm

conaly wrote:
Well, Lufthansa has now more or less a monopoly on the German domestic market. No more Air Berlin, Ryanair and Easyjet don't fly domestic routes at all. The only competition LH/EW has is Flixbus and long distance trains, mostly by Deutsche Bahn.



EZY fly TXL-FRA. I was on it last month.
next flights : LHR-SOF BA, SOF-DOH-KAT QR, KAT-HKG KA, HKG-LHR VS, LHR-ATH-LHR BA, LHR-CDG-LHR AF, LHR-MAD-LHR IB/BA
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2616
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:18 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:39 pm

Both FR and EZ fly domestically in Germany.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:48 pm

They do? I checked their websites just now and didn't find anything. My bad.

Still, on most routes, there is no competition for LH/EW.
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8256
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:22 pm

lightmac wrote:
Does this make the German domestic network the busiest/densest for a relatively small country, because it is so poly-central?


You could recognize the UK and France as the outliers, being so London- and Paris-centric. Look at at ANA route map for contrast.

Germany is a big, wealthy country with numerous cities of a population where one can expect scheduled air service. I mean, are you surprised by the count of intra-California flights?
 
lightmac
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:56 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:51 am

Well, some politicians publicly discuss the elimination of domestic flights in Germany for climate-reasons. I do not think they understand what that would mean/do....?
 
lightmac
Topic Author
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:56 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:55 am

There is a Saturday flight from Nuernberg to Dusseldorf: EW 9069
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:17 am

lightmac wrote:
Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily!

To which connection are you referring to? That would be equal to one flight every hour all day long. Perverted. Considering a curfew at one of the two cities, even more flights per hour. So which city-pair is it?
 
steman
Posts: 1642
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2000 4:55 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:48 am

Deutsche-Bahn offers a limited alternative to domestic air transport.
Prices are very high and travel times not what one would expect from "high speed" railways.
Things are changing, with new faster, more direct connections but for the most part the German railway company
prefers to serve every small city on the way, making journey times much longer.
As an example, some years ago I used to commute between Mannheim and Berlin, a journey time of about 5 hours for a little over 600 km. The train used to stop at Frankfurt Main, Hanau, Fulda, Göttingen, Hildesheim, Wolfsburg, Berlin Spandau and finally Berlin main station. Even the so called (more expensive) Sprinter between Frankfurt and Berlin, with no intermediate stops, was still about 4 hours, a distance shorter than the one between Rome and Milan, which the Italian Railway Companies make in less than 3 hours and with lower prices.
More recently, last year I had to go to a wedding in the black forest and I ended up booking an Easyjet flight between TXL and FRA and get a rental car at FRA because it was still cheaper than taking a train.
So, in my opinion, as long as Deutsche Bahn charges such high prices and has such long travel times, domestic flights in Germany will not shrink, regardless of what many politicians say.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4570
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:48 am

N14AZ wrote:
lightmac wrote:
Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily!

To which connection are you referring to? That would be equal to one flight every hour all day long. Perverted. Considering a curfew at one of the two cities, even more flights per hour. So which city-pair is it?


I think he means 25 domestic flights in total across the entire domestic network.
 
mozart
Posts: 2166
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:54 am

VSMUT wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
lightmac wrote:
Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily!

To which connection are you referring to? That would be equal to one flight every hour all day long. Perverted. Considering a curfew at one of the two cities, even more flights per hour. So which city-pair is it?


I think he means 25 domestic flights in total across the entire domestic network.


No, he certainly does not. It's 25 flights between two cities - 12 in one direction (from city A to city B) and 13 in the other direction (from city B to city A).

25 flights for a network of so many cities would be nothing.


Envoyé de mon iPad en utilisant Tapatalk Pro
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4570
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:58 am

steman wrote:
Deutsche-Bahn offers a limited alternative to domestic air transport.
Prices are very high and travel times not what one would expect from "high speed" railways.
Things are changing, with new faster, more direct connections but for the most part the German railway company
prefers to serve every small city on the way, making journey times much longer.
As an example, some years ago I used to commute between Mannheim and Berlin, a journey time of about 5 hours for a little over 600 km. The train used to stop at Frankfurt Main, Hanau, Fulda, Göttingen, Hildesheim, Wolfsburg, Berlin Spandau and finally Berlin main station. Even the so called (more expensive) Sprinter between Frankfurt and Berlin, with no intermediate stops, was still about 4 hours, a distance shorter than the one between Rome and Milan, which the Italian Railway Companies make in less than 3 hours and with lower prices.
More recently, last year I had to go to a wedding in the black forest and I ended up booking an Easyjet flight between TXL and FRA and get a rental car at FRA because it was still cheaper than taking a train.
So, in my opinion, as long as Deutsche Bahn charges such high prices and has such long travel times, domestic flights in Germany will not shrink, regardless of what many politicians say.


To be fair though, how much faster would it be by plane Mannheim-Berlin? 30 minutes to reach Frankfurt, a recommended 2 hours in Frankfurt, 1 hours flying time, roughly 1 hour to get from the plane to the city center. 4:30 by plane vs around 4:50 by train?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:01 am

Noshow wrote:
Well Eurowings is not always something to brag about. Many routes and entire airports have been downgraded from LH mainline to their subsidiary EW. Lufthansa should better make Swiss it's role model for reliability, service and standards.


My last experience of Swiss reliability, service and standards moved it of my personal lists of airlines I will use without being forced to. And I do use RyanAir and easyJet.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:13 am

German rail is a mess as it is. I think about 30% of the ICE are not on time. Repairs of the infrastructure have been neglected and now work is done on many main routes. The work includes tracks, switches, signaling and bridges. It will take a few years until we see better conditions. The big exception is the route Berlin München, newly build or partly rebuild. About 600 km in four and a half hours.

I think The LH group is the exception in Europe, both in regards to the domestic net and also in how many hubs they run, because here we have to count all relevant airlines owned by LH group.
 
SueD
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:15 am

First and foremost Germany post 1990/1 reunification is certainly not a small country !

Even with the ICE TRAIN corridors most services run at conventional 100 to 125 mph speeds , distances are vast especially from Berlin in the Far East of the country to the industrial heartlands in the Rhine/Rhur and similarly from Hanseatic coast to Bavaria.

First and business class rail tickets like many other European countries aren’t exactly cheap either.

BTW almost all the longer rail services remain in the hands of DB , with only some regional services franchised at the moment. Want a disjointed railway visit the UK.

Ground level travel can take hours as a result on the longer core routes from both Berlin and Munich air travel remains competitive in both time and Euros .

Frankfurt domestic routes are more of a hub and spoke feeder operation in the main
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:25 am

lightmac wrote:
There is a Saturday flight from Nuernberg to Dusseldorf: EW 9069


Unfortunately, that flight is not available anymore in summer flight plan and I was looking for flights in May 2020. The last two years for example I took EW9063 on Saturday, which isn't available in May 2020. And as mentioned earlier, there are no direct Saturday flights at all from Summer 2020. The return leg on Sunday-evening (EW9066) won't operate anymore either, the only direct flight is now EW9068 in the afternoon.

So as I said, Eurowings has reduced the routing by quite a bit, so it is no longer a viable option for me. Will take the car next time.
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
konkret
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:00 am

VSMUT wrote:
steman wrote:
Deutsche-Bahn offers a limited alternative to domestic air transport.
Prices are very high and travel times not what one would expect from "high speed" railways.
Things are changing, with new faster, more direct connections but for the most part the German railway company
prefers to serve every small city on the way, making journey times much longer.
As an example, some years ago I used to commute between Mannheim and Berlin, a journey time of about 5 hours for a little over 600 km. The train used to stop at Frankfurt Main, Hanau, Fulda, Göttingen, Hildesheim, Wolfsburg, Berlin Spandau and finally Berlin main station. Even the so called (more expensive) Sprinter between Frankfurt and Berlin, with no intermediate stops, was still about 4 hours, a distance shorter than the one between Rome and Milan, which the Italian Railway Companies make in less than 3 hours and with lower prices.
More recently, last year I had to go to a wedding in the black forest and I ended up booking an Easyjet flight between TXL and FRA and get a rental car at FRA because it was still cheaper than taking a train.
So, in my opinion, as long as Deutsche Bahn charges such high prices and has such long travel times, domestic flights in Germany will not shrink, regardless of what many politicians say.


To be fair though, how much faster would it be by plane Mannheim-Berlin? 30 minutes to reach Frankfurt, a recommended 2 hours in Frankfurt, 1 hours flying time, roughly 1 hour to get from the plane to the city center. 4:30 by plane vs around 4:50 by train?


You don’t need to go to FRA as you can fly directly from Mannheim City Airport to TXL. MHG is a small airport so you don’t need to be there 2 hours before the flight. TXL is a 20 min taxi ride from Berlin HBF.
 
VFRonTop
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:36 am

N14AZ wrote:
lightmac wrote:
Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily!

To which connection are you referring to? That would be equal to one flight every hour all day long. Perverted. Considering a curfew at one of the two cities, even more flights per hour. So which city-pair is it?


Below is the average summer schedule for MUC to TXL. 22 flights (one way), with 4 operated by U2 and the rest operated by LH. Similar schedule for the TXL to MUC leg.

06h30 LH
07h00 LH
07h30 LH
08h00 LH
08h30 LH
08h40 U2
09h00 LH
10h15 U2
11h00 LH
12h00 LH
13h00 LH
14h05 LH
15h00 LH
16h00 LH
17h00 LH
17h30 LH
18h00 LH
18h45 U2
19h00 LH
19h40 U2
20h00 LH
21h30 LH
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4570
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:44 am

konkret wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
steman wrote:
Deutsche-Bahn offers a limited alternative to domestic air transport.
Prices are very high and travel times not what one would expect from "high speed" railways.
Things are changing, with new faster, more direct connections but for the most part the German railway company
prefers to serve every small city on the way, making journey times much longer.
As an example, some years ago I used to commute between Mannheim and Berlin, a journey time of about 5 hours for a little over 600 km. The train used to stop at Frankfurt Main, Hanau, Fulda, Göttingen, Hildesheim, Wolfsburg, Berlin Spandau and finally Berlin main station. Even the so called (more expensive) Sprinter between Frankfurt and Berlin, with no intermediate stops, was still about 4 hours, a distance shorter than the one between Rome and Milan, which the Italian Railway Companies make in less than 3 hours and with lower prices.
More recently, last year I had to go to a wedding in the black forest and I ended up booking an Easyjet flight between TXL and FRA and get a rental car at FRA because it was still cheaper than taking a train.
So, in my opinion, as long as Deutsche Bahn charges such high prices and has such long travel times, domestic flights in Germany will not shrink, regardless of what many politicians say.


To be fair though, how much faster would it be by plane Mannheim-Berlin? 30 minutes to reach Frankfurt, a recommended 2 hours in Frankfurt, 1 hours flying time, roughly 1 hour to get from the plane to the city center. 4:30 by plane vs around 4:50 by train?


You don’t need to go to FRA as you can fly directly from Mannheim City Airport to TXL. MHG is a small airport so you don’t need to be there 2 hours before the flight. TXL is a 20 min taxi ride from Berlin HBF.


Fair enough, but then any question about price goes right out the window.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8824
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:03 am

lightmac wrote:
Well, some politicians publicly discuss the elimination of domestic flights in Germany for climate-reasons. I do not think they understand what that would mean/do....?

I don’t think you understand what climate change means/does...
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:09 am

VSMUT wrote:
steman wrote:
Deutsche-Bahn offers a limited alternative to domestic air transport.
Prices are very high and travel times not what one would expect from "high speed" railways.
Things are changing, with new faster, more direct connections but for the most part the German railway company
prefers to serve every small city on the way, making journey times much longer.
As an example, some years ago I used to commute between Mannheim and Berlin, a journey time of about 5 hours for a little over 600 km. The train used to stop at Frankfurt Main, Hanau, Fulda, Göttingen, Hildesheim, Wolfsburg, Berlin Spandau and finally Berlin main station. Even the so called (more expensive) Sprinter between Frankfurt and Berlin, with no intermediate stops, was still about 4 hours, a distance shorter than the one between Rome and Milan, which the Italian Railway Companies make in less than 3 hours and with lower prices.
More recently, last year I had to go to a wedding in the black forest and I ended up booking an Easyjet flight between TXL and FRA and get a rental car at FRA because it was still cheaper than taking a train.
So, in my opinion, as long as Deutsche Bahn charges such high prices and has such long travel times, domestic flights in Germany will not shrink, regardless of what many politicians say.


To be fair though, how much faster would it be by plane Mannheim-Berlin? 30 minutes to reach Frankfurt, a recommended 2 hours in Frankfurt, 1 hours flying time, roughly 1 hour to get from the plane to the city center. 4:30 by plane vs around 4:50 by train?


This is actually a very bad example, as [biz] pax from Mannheim would take Rhein-Neckar-Air and fly directly within 1:15 hours from Mannheim to Berlin.

Businesses were pushing for this direct flights, sometimes up to 3 daily and set up this route using MHS Aviation
 
User avatar
ro1960
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:19 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:27 am

VFRonTop wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

Below is the average summer schedule for MUC to TXL. 22 flights (one way), with 4 operated by U2 and the rest operated by LH. Similar schedule for the TXL to MUC leg.

06h30 LH
07h00 LH
07h30 LH
08h00 LH
08h30 LH
08h40 U2
09h00 LH
10h15 U2
11h00 LH
12h00 LH
13h00 LH
14h05 LH
15h00 LH
16h00 LH
17h00 LH
17h30 LH
18h00 LH
18h45 U2
19h00 LH
19h40 U2
20h00 LH
21h30 LH


This is the 8th busiest domestic route in Europe and it's on a steady rise since 2011 according to Wikipedia.

The other busiest German domestic route is #2 in Europe and is FRA-TXL, also on the rise.
You may like my airport photos:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/aeroports
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:17 pm

Mannheim is an expensive airport to fly out of with limited choice.
if it weren't for the private jets there it would be closed.

I don't object to the inland air routes. I object to them not being efficient planes like ATR72, Q400, low-cost carrier stuffed to the gills A320s and 737s with low ticket prices.

Lufthansa is able to keep the routes because of protection from Government.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:30 pm

Of course the German government are changing taxes which may make rail more affordable. Their rail network suffers from the economic geography of the country, you can't build very high speed lines as its a Web network rather than a hub and spoke network. (such as the UK where all main lines lead to London) this makes speed suffer but provides an incredible level of connectivity.

The reliability has suffered, from what I can gather, effectively due to over confidence leading to reduced funding and too much focus on newer High speed lines rather than maintenance and renewals.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:37 pm

StdTank80002 wrote:
Of course the German government are changing taxes which may make rail more affordable. Their rail network suffers from the economic geography of the country, you can't build very high speed lines as its a Web network rather than a hub and spoke network. (such as the UK where all main lines lead to London) this makes speed suffer but provides an incredible level of connectivity.

The reliability has suffered, from what I can gather, effectively due to over confidence leading to reduced funding and too much focus on newer High speed lines rather than maintenance and renewals.

There is no guarantee that passengers of Deutsche Bahn will see any of that reduction in MwSt(VAT) on long distance travel despite what politicians of DB might claim. The pricing engine delivers variable fares and maximises income for DB.
 
ei146
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:22 pm

ro1960 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:

Below is the average summer schedule for MUC to TXL. 22 flights (one way), with 4 operated by U2 and the rest operated by LH. Similar schedule for the TXL to MUC leg.
...


This is the 8th busiest domestic route in Europe and it's on a steady rise since 2011 according to Wikipedia.


According to Wikipedia there were almost 2 Mio airline passengers between TXL and MUC in 2018. Deutsche Bahn claims they had more then 4 Mio passengers (or 4.4 according to other sources) in the same year traveling between both cities. So more then twice as much.
And railway tickest are not necessarily cheaper on this connection.
2018 was the first full year of operation of the Highspeed Rail Link. The numbers for 2019 are expected to be even higher, as Deutsche Bahn added capacity.
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 pm

leghorn wrote:
StdTank80002 wrote:
Of course the German government are changing taxes which may make rail more affordable. Their rail network suffers from the economic geography of the country, you can't build very high speed lines as its a Web network rather than a hub and spoke network. (such as the UK where all main lines lead to London) this makes speed suffer but provides an incredible level of connectivity.

The reliability has suffered, from what I can gather, effectively due to over confidence leading to reduced funding and too much focus on newer High speed lines rather than maintenance and renewals.

There is no guarantee that passengers of Deutsche Bahn will see any of that reduction in MwSt(VAT) on long distance travel despite what politicians of DB might claim. The pricing engine delivers variable fares and maximises income for DB.



Indeed that's why I said May, it's much the same over here in the UK. But it may lead to it.

DBs pricing engine always comes across to me as very variable, that's definitely how I'd describe it. Found some very cheap fares over the years but sometimes very very expensive.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:48 pm

Jeez, the prices: Mannheim - Berlin next Monday morning with DB is €95 and Dublin - Stansted on Monday morning is €13. whatever about Ryanair being cheap, DB is without question expensive.
four hour trip with DB on a 470km distance as the crow flies.
 
OlafW
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:49 pm

cedarjet wrote:
lightmac wrote:
Well, some politicians publicly discuss the elimination of domestic flights in Germany for climate-reasons. I do not think they understand what that would mean/do....?

I don’t think you understand what climate change means/does...

I think it's pretty clear what climate change does, but the elimination of domestic flights could lead to at least two scenarios:
1. everyone who took the flight before changes to train service. This is what our politicians would like to believe.
2. everyone who took the flight before changes to using a car. This is what I consider more likely.
(I am leaving out the long distance buses as they are not competitive time wise and have their own market share.)
Of course reality will be somewhere in between, but 2 million more people taking the car alone on the Berlin-Munich route would result in about 200 cars more per hour on any given part of that route, maybe a bit less if some should share a ride. Fuel used per passenger will then be more than what a plane uses, so the ban of domestic flights would even cause a rise of emissions instead of the intended decline. I'm really not sure if that could be tackled by adding capacity on the tracks.
 
masi1157
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:57 pm

leghorn wrote:
There is no guarantee that passengers of Deutsche Bahn will see any of that reduction in MwSt(VAT) on long distance travel despite what politicians of DB might claim. The pricing engine delivers variable fares and maximises income for DB.

I booked a couple of trips before and another couple of trips after the MwSt reduction. The ones after the reduction clearly were 10% cheaper, e.g. 13.40€ instead of 14.90€ for a "Supersparpreis" with Bahncard25 on exactly the same routing.


Gruß, masi1157
517 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:59 pm

OlafW wrote:
I am leaving out the long distance buses as they are not competitive time wise and have their own market share.)

You'll find on Frankfurt-Berlin the long distance buses are competitive to DB time wise and almost a tenth of the price.
 
ei146
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:12 pm

OlafW wrote:
I think it's pretty clear what climate change does, but the elimination of domestic flights could lead to at least two scenarios:
1. everyone who took the flight before changes to train service. This is what our politicians would like to believe.
2. everyone who took the flight before changes to using a car. This is what I consider more likely.
(I am leaving out the long distance buses as they are not competitive time wise and have their own market share.)
Of course reality will be somewhere in between, but 2 million more people taking the car alone on the Berlin-Munich route would result in about 200 cars more per hour on any given part of that route, maybe a bit less if some should share a ride. Fuel used per passenger will then be more than what a plane uses, so the ban of domestic flights would even cause a rise of emissions instead of the intended decline. I'm really not sure if that could be tackled by adding capacity on the tracks.


I don't think it is that easy. See the example of the Munich-Berlin Highspeed rail service. According to the numbers in Wikipedia there was not much of a change in airline passenger numbers between 2015 and 2018, a little bit less then 2 Mio per year.
But in late 2017 the last part of the highspeed railway line opened and more then doubled the rail passenger numbers from less then 2 Mio to more then 4 Mio per year. Obviously it didn't affect airline passengers numbers. So were did these more then 2 Mio. passengers come from? I don't think there was such a surge in traffic demand. The logical consequence is that these passengers used cars and busses before.
But this also shows that the car is not automatically the only alternative to flying, providing other viable alternatives exist.
 
OlafW
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:15 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:12 pm

I only find routes where the bus takes at least 2 hours more, comparable times on flixbus are actually the flixtrain.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:22 pm

Cars in Germany are getting less and less of an option for fast transport as motorways getting more and more crowded. If the railway is working like on Berlin München car nor bus can compete with the speed. Travel time on the rail is 4 hours 30 minutes. So going town center to town center is hardly faster by airplane.
When you of course fly to MUC to make an connection, the situation is different.
I think with time we will see long haul from BER and less reason to connect in MUC trains will be getting faster in the next years as repairs are getting to the end and the rail infrastructure will be in a state of normal repair again.

I think talking about Lufthansa is government protected, in what form? We see the growth of easyJet and RyanAir in domestic flying in Germany. Any European airline coud start to compete, if they see attractive routes. The point I assume is, that LH is a network carrier and passengers choose them when wanting to connect to other flights.
From HAM or BER you can also fly to CPH and choose SAS or HEL and choose Finnair. If somebody wants to really compete they would choose BER (after it has opened), STR, HAM or CGN and does long haul from there. That way you can take passengers from LH, without going dirctly up agains them.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:28 pm

OlafW wrote:
I only find routes where the bus takes at least 2 hours more, comparable times on flixbus are actually the flixtrain.

I stand corrected; flixbus train service was shown to me on flixbus website which is one of the few intercity train services offered by providers other than DB.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2570
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:00 pm

For a comparison I've looked at Oslo (Norway 5,3 million people).

Oslo domestic only:

Oslo-Bergen 48 daily departures (24 each way) on 737 size aircraft.
Oslo-Trondheim 44 daily departures (22 each way) on 737 size aircraft.
Oslo-Stavanger 42 daily departures (21 each way) on mostly 737 size aircraft.
Oslo-Tromsø 24 daily departures (12 each way) on mostly 737 size aircraft.
Oslo-Bodø 18 daily departures (9 each way) on mostly 737 size aircraft.
Oslo-Kristiansand 14 daily departures (7 each way) on mostly 737 size aircraft
+ about 10 daily to each Molde and Kristiansund and other smaller airports.

The other airports have only a handful of flights to other cities. The network is very Oslo-centric.

What's impressive about the German statistics isn't the number of flights, it's the amount of large cities that all have such a high number of flights imho. But then again Germany has 83 million people, Norway only 5.5 million.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1117
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:18 pm

If I may add my own points here:

1) Inter-German travel has become much like Inter-California travel, with similar sets of powerful business-centered cities too far apart for most one-day travels without using airplanes. MUC-TXL I would compare to Southern California - Northern California. The train is possible, but not the fastest way, and California is the state that truly invented the traffic jam.
2) By offering a nearly hourly schedule of departures, LH can market themselves to last-minute business travelers who pay a LOT for those tickets. Same with Southwest and United which have found the SoCal-NorCal shuttle quite profitble.
3) Germany is not a country dominated by a single major city (geographers use the term "Primate City" to indicate a country with one major city dominating government and culture, such as Panama City, Panama, and Havana, Cuba). The multiple different business centers require their own routes, bypassing a "hub".
4) The new Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof layout and facilities have to have cost Deutsche Bahn a fortune. I got wind of how much that average Stuttgart citizen is embarrassed by the obscene cost of the station. Funding for many of the postponed projects might be being drained into this single project.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 391
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:58 pm

SueD wrote:
First and foremost Germany post 1990/1 reunification is certainly not a small country !

Even with the ICE TRAIN corridors most services run at conventional 100 to 125 mph speeds , distances are vast especially from Berlin in the Far East of the country to the industrial heartlands in the Rhine/Rhur and similarly from Hanseatic coast to Bavaria.

First and business class rail tickets like many other European countries aren’t exactly cheap either.

BTW almost all the longer rail services remain in the hands of DB , with only some regional services franchised at the moment. Want a disjointed railway visit the UK.

Ground level travel can take hours as a result on the longer core routes from both Berlin and Munich air travel remains competitive in both time and Euros .

Frankfurt domestic routes are more of a hub and spoke feeder operation in the main


Berlin to the "Far East" - you know that they never made it to Vladivostok.

All joking aside, I prefer trains in Europe to flying whenever possible because even a 5 hour train versus a 1 hour flight you have to add hassle and airport time as well as an uncomfortable seat.

So you save 2 hours, but you don't save your body or sanity.

Plus the food on the Czech train I took was absolutely fantastic (and cheap, by travel standards)!
 
TC957
Posts: 3840
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:11 pm

That volume of TXL-MUC & TXL-FRA flights connecting to the LH hubs is why LH doesn't fly long-haul from Germany's capital, and won't exactly rush to do so when BER eventually opens. But for a country with no speed limits on autobahns plus the ICE rail network I too find it quite surprising the amount of flights between the big cities. Even really short hops like MUC-NUE and MUC-STR have multi-daily flights, you can drive these in little over an hour in a decent car !
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:07 am

TC957 wrote:
That volume of TXL-MUC & TXL-FRA flights connecting to the LH hubs is why LH doesn't fly long-haul from Germany's capital, and won't exactly rush to do so when BER eventually opens. But for a country with no speed limits on autobahns plus the ICE rail network I too find it quite surprising the amount of flights between the big cities. Even really short hops like MUC-NUE and MUC-STR have multi-daily flights, you can drive these in little over an hour in a decent car !

MUC-NUE, MUC-STR, FRA-STR, much of FRA/MUC-TXL and I suspect a few more that I'm forgetting right now are 99% hub feeders. Munich airport in particular is poorly connected to the railway network, and early morning departures are difficult to reach because the earliest train itineraries don't arrive before ~ 07:00 h. Much easier to catch a short flight at 06:00, arrive at MUC or FRA at 06:45 and hop on your second leg at 08:00.

Late evening arrivals face the inverse problem. The last train will leave at around 22:00, good luck catching that after your long haul flight arrived at 21:30, you picked up your luggage, went through immigration and walked all the way to the train station. Easier to let the luggage be transferred and hop on a brief feeder flight at 22:30, arriving at the final destination just before the curfew. Finally, small airports like STR and NUE are much more relaxed when it comes to immigration, luggage, parking etc.

Bonus: If your first leg arrives late, LH will expedite your transfer or get you an alternative 'cause they sold you the full itinerary from A to B. But if you bought your ground transportation from DB and your flight from LH, the ticket may be worthless if you miss one connection.


***
In C, you're entitled to a full (light meal) service. If you're lucky, wheels up to wheels down is <20 minutes on those flights. You do _not_ want to sit in the last row to be served...
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:16 am

ei146 wrote:
So where did these more then 2 Mio. passengers come from?

Per some statistics, 1.2 Mio. passengers switched from airplane to rail, and 1 Mio. passengers switched from cars & coaches to rail. Railway marketshare doubled from 23% to 46%, while airline market share dropped from 48% to 30%.
https://www.muenchen.tv/44-millionen-fa ... in-296387/
 
ei146
Posts: 310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:07 am

mxaxai wrote:
ei146 wrote:
So where did these more then 2 Mio. passengers come from?

Per some statistics, 1.2 Mio. passengers switched from airplane to rail, and 1 Mio. passengers switched from cars & coaches to rail. Railway marketshare doubled from 23% to 46%, while airline market share dropped from 48% to 30%.
https://www.muenchen.tv/44-millionen-fa ... in-296387/


Yep, I read those reports too, they were in several news outlets. But something must be wrong either with that "market study by Deutsche Bahn" or the numbers in the air passenger statistics in that Wikipedia article. There Eurostat is given as data source. Personally I'd trust Eurostat more than a "market study" by some company with its own interests in that market. But I also don't know the quality of the data mining done by the Wikipedia authors.
Deutsche Bahn probably knows the number of tickets they sell. If they say the number between BER and MUC went from below 2 Mio to more than 4 Mio in 2018 and keep adding trains to the line they probably know what they are doing.
Still I think the number of airline passengers between MUC and BER from Wikipedia must be roughly correct. If it dropped as much as the Bahn-study implied the airline(s) would have withdrawn some serious capacity in 2019. Which didn't happen.
So where these additional train passengers came from, I don't know.
 
masi1157
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:20 am

mxaxai wrote:
Munich airport in particular is poorly connected to the railway network, and early morning departures are difficult to reach because the earliest train itineraries don't arrive before ~ 07:00 h. Much easier to catch a short flight at 06:00, arrive at MUC or FRA at 06:45 and hop on your second leg at 08:00.

Late evening arrivals face the inverse problem. The last train will leave at around 22:00...

I just looked it up at MVG.de and find S-trains from Hauptbahnhof almost all through the night every 40', the only longer gap is between 1:35 and 3:15. The same for the way back, there are regular trains from the airport until 1:24 at night and then a gap until 4:04.


Gruß, masi1157
517 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:02 am

conaly wrote:
Well, Lufthansa has now more or less a monopoly on the German domestic market. No more Air Berlin, Ryanair and Easyjet don't fly domestic routes at all. The only competition LH/EW has is Flixbus and long distance trains, mostly by Deutsche Bahn.

Besides, all domestic routes apart from/to FRA and MUC have been swapped from LH to EW, even the Cityline-routes.

And contrary to your statement, some long running Lufthansa/Eurowings-routes are being reduced or shut down completely. Last year, TXL-NUE has been first temporarily stopped and than permanently shut down, because the new high speed train line Nuremberg-Erfurt-Leipzig-Berlin is now a better alternative (even though the DB raised their prices, once Eurowings had withdrawn). This year I was looking for flight NUE-DUS on Saturday morning and DUS-NUE on Sunday evening. Both flights have been there for the last few years (I took them), but this year, the is NO Saturday flight at all between NUE and DUS and on Sunday, the last flight goes in the afternoon.


Where do you get the Idea, that easyJet is not flying domestic in Germany? From TXL they do DUS, CGN, FRA, STR, MUC and GWT.
 
User avatar
conaly
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:19 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Where do you get the Idea, that easyJet is not flying domestic in Germany? From TXL they do DUS, CGN, FRA, STR, MUC and GWT.


I already noticed, that I was wrong ;)
Airports 2019: ADB, ALG, AMD, ATL, BOG, BOS, CDG, CTS, DEL, DTW, DUS, EWR, FRA, FUK, HAM, HFT, HIJ, HND, HVG, IST, ITM, JFK, MUC, NGO, NUE, OKA, PHL, SIN, STN, TOS, YYZ, ZRH
Airports 2020: ALG, CTS, FRA, HKG, HND, MSQ, MUC, NUE, TLV, ZRH
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:27 am

leghorn wrote:
Jeez, the prices: Mannheim - Berlin next Monday morning with DB is €95 and Dublin - Stansted on Monday morning is €13. whatever about Ryanair being cheap, DB is without question expensive.
four hour trip with DB on a 470km distance as the crow flies.


95 € for peak time travel (monday morning) is not expensive. Ryanair is artificially inexpensive. Or are you suggesting that 13 € for a flight DUB-STN is a realistic price for the service provided?
 
AKL321NX
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:35 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:50 am

lightmac wrote:
Despite Greta Thunberg Germany's seven top cities are connected to each other with up to 25 flights daily!

While she is rightfully concerned about climate change, I don't think she's requesting the LH group to cancel your fictional schedule
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:44 am

conaly wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Where do you get the Idea, that easyJet is not flying domestic in Germany? From TXL they do DUS, CGN, FRA, STR, MUC and GWT.


I already noticed, that I was wrong ;)


But it fitted your Lufthansa monopoly narrative so well.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos