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tommy1808
Posts: 13167
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:04 pm

leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


Domestic flying is lucrative for LH because it flies P, J and F Class passengers to their long haul flights..... Ryanair doesn´t have that.

There is no "unlocking", they can just start flying. The problem is selling enough tickets, and selling them at high enough prices.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


Domestic flying is lucrative for LH because it flies P, J and F Class passengers to their long haul flights..... Ryanair doesn´t have that.

There is no "unlocking", they can just start flying. The problem is selling enough tickets, and selling them at high enough prices.

best regards
Thomas

As was discussed Ad Infinitum during the Air Berlin threads "They can just start flying" is just not possible.
 
VCPJetter
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:55 pm

I just had a look on the CGH-SDU shuttle between central airports of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. This shows far over 43–74 daily flights in each direction per day between both airports. If uou add the 22-24 daily GRU-GIG flights each way, you have nearly 200 flights connecting both cities on a daily basis. This in a developing country.
Therefore I don't think the German domestic network between economically important cities is any surprise.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13167
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:56 pm

leghorn wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


Domestic flying is lucrative for LH because it flies P, J and F Class passengers to their long haul flights..... Ryanair doesn´t have that.

There is no "unlocking", they can just start flying. The problem is selling enough tickets, and selling them at high enough prices.

best regards
Thomas

As was discussed Ad Infinitum during the Air Berlin threads "They can just start flying" is just not possible.


It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
dazeflight
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:59 pm

leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


I guess thats why they stopped the flights from Berlin to Cologne. They just didn't make any profit and the same is true for EZY after taking over a lot of routes from Berlin after the AB demise.
Last edited by dazeflight on Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dazeflight
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:03 pm

leghorn wrote:
dazeflight wrote:
leghorn wrote:
I'm not going to be convinced that DB is value for money. I've been let down by it when I've used it and when I have priced it on many occassions it has been simply too expensive.
It seems that I'm not in the minority in Germany but that doesn't stop the politicians trying to tilt the table in its favour and excluding free market competition in so much as they can.


It's funny to read this stuff cooked under a tinfoil-hat when kerosene is not taxed in Germany, car commuting is heavily subsidized, long distance buses don't need to pay any toll and flixtrain as a major competitor to be has just extended services (with the main reason being so slow in expanding being the major investments required in rolling material).

In any case you seem to be trying to defend that opinion you've once made at any cost, even if your arguments are proven untrue. But well, that's one person less who grabs one of the cheaper tickets.

Tinfoil hat? I have direct experience when consuming the service or by-passing it for a better alternative.
I see you attempt to diminish my contribution is because you can't defend the poor, expensive service delivered by DB on those occassions when they are bothered enough to deliver it.
Flixbus trains represent a tiny proportion of all the services on very few routes. Airlines/Customers are paying much more in APD than they would pay through a tax on aviation fuel. Diesel fuel is at around 1.30 euro litre, petrol at about 1.40 per litre so by no stretch of the imagination can travelling by car be considered heavily subsidized(outside of pendler trips to work). Private bus services should NEVER be subject to toll if the objective is to give people an alternative to private transport and I see mwst at 19% on the receipt for one of my last Flixbus trips.

You are not approaching the discussion at all honestly. You are cherry-picking fares from their booking systems where as I give real examples of fares which those who wish to travel can reasonably expect to pay on a LCC between two other EU member states.
The protectionism of the DB and Lufthansa in DACH must be ended because it is costing the public dearly.


Trains have to pay for using the tracks and for every station, airlines have to pay for landing rights and handling, Flixbus has to pay for what? They own one single Bus, so they don't even have any business risks. And again, I'm not cherry-picking fares, I just seem to know how to use the "Sparpreisfinder" which seems to be too difficult for you.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:06 pm

dazeflight wrote:
leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


I guess thats why they stopped the flights from Berlin to Cologne. They just didn't make any profit and the same is true for EZY after taking over a lot of routes from Berlin after the AB demise.

...and nothing about Max grounding and reduced fleet.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:07 pm

dazeflight wrote:
leghorn wrote:
dazeflight wrote:

It's funny to read this stuff cooked under a tinfoil-hat when kerosene is not taxed in Germany, car commuting is heavily subsidized, long distance buses don't need to pay any toll and flixtrain as a major competitor to be has just extended services (with the main reason being so slow in expanding being the major investments required in rolling material).

In any case you seem to be trying to defend that opinion you've once made at any cost, even if your arguments are proven untrue. But well, that's one person less who grabs one of the cheaper tickets.

Tinfoil hat? I have direct experience when consuming the service or by-passing it for a better alternative.
I see you attempt to diminish my contribution is because you can't defend the poor, expensive service delivered by DB on those occassions when they are bothered enough to deliver it.
Flixbus trains represent a tiny proportion of all the services on very few routes. Airlines/Customers are paying much more in APD than they would pay through a tax on aviation fuel. Diesel fuel is at around 1.30 euro litre, petrol at about 1.40 per litre so by no stretch of the imagination can travelling by car be considered heavily subsidized(outside of pendler trips to work). Private bus services should NEVER be subject to toll if the objective is to give people an alternative to private transport and I see mwst at 19% on the receipt for one of my last Flixbus trips.

You are not approaching the discussion at all honestly. You are cherry-picking fares from their booking systems where as I give real examples of fares which those who wish to travel can reasonably expect to pay on a LCC between two other EU member states.
The protectionism of the DB and Lufthansa in DACH must be ended because it is costing the public dearly.


Trains have to pay for using the tracks and for every station, airlines have to pay for landing rights and handling, Flixbus has to pay for what? They own one single Bus, so they don't even have any business risks. And again, I'm not cherry-picking fares, I just seem to know how to use the "Sparpreisfinder" which seems to be too difficult for you.

What use is a sparpreisfinder for anything other than deflection by you if it isn't delivering affordable fares at times when people need to travel.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Domestic flying is lucrative for LH because it flies P, J and F Class passengers to their long haul flights..... Ryanair doesn´t have that.

There is no "unlocking", they can just start flying. The problem is selling enough tickets, and selling them at high enough prices.

best regards
Thomas

As was discussed Ad Infinitum during the Air Berlin threads "They can just start flying" is just not possible.


It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas


Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.
 
LH982
Posts: 168
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:26 pm

N14AZ wrote:

LH982 wrote:
Yes you can do it with DB, but you'll spend the day on a train, so it's useless for business.

I get your point but at the same time it might be worth mentioning that – depending on your profession – working in the train can be very effective. I work two hours in the high speed train every day and I get more tasks done in the train than in the office.



I specifically said STR or MUC to HAM. For business users DB is just not an option on these routes
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13167
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:32 pm

Polot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
As was discussed Ad Infinitum during the Air Berlin threads "They can just start flying" is just not possible.


It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas


Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.


And if Airports run out of slots that may be a problem. Will you get your preferred flying time? Maybe not, but you will get slots.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Polot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas


Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.


And if Airports run out of slots that may be a problem. Will you get your preferred flying time? Maybe not, but you will get slots.

Best regards
Thomas

That is still a barrier to entry and an “obstacle”, and a perfectly legal one at that.

And no, you might not get any commercially useful slots. Or anywhere near the amount the you want. Airports in the EU and US generally have the requirement to
try to reasonably accommodate requests. They are not required to fulfill requests.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:51 pm

Polot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
As was discussed Ad Infinitum during the Air Berlin threads "They can just start flying" is just not possible.


It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas


Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.


No slots no flights is on every slot controlled airport. But you can hardly accuse for example FRA about that. RyanAir got slots in FRA, it was cost that kept them in HHN. RyanAir is not prepared to pay full price for the landing and service at airports.
RyanAir got all the slots they asked for at FRA. Lufthansa started to protest when RyanAir got discounts on what they had to pay for the facilities.

Since FRA got the third parallel runway, 07L/25R, movements have significantly increased and are with 512.000 quite a bit more than in LHR or CDG, both around 480.000. Terminal 3 is being build to accommodate more traffic.

There are no restrictions on competition in Germany in regards to aviation, apart from in regards to example Emirates, airlines from outside of the EEA.. What is missing are airlines, that want to compete against Lufthansa. As it is, RyanAir and easyJet have been growing as competitors, but there is no other full service airline.
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:00 pm

leghorn wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Generally speaking, for short term travel German Rail offers better value for money for me as domestic fares tend to be extremely high since airberlin, dba & hlx have disappeared. I have paid north of 300 EUR for 60 minute Eurowings flights and this did include nothing - not a seat reservation, no luggage, no drink, absolutely nothing except a seat. I have never been charged so much for so little by German Rail even in 1st class.

Based on your experience of airfares don't you think that Ryanair are the Octopus that would like to figure out how to get in to that corked bottle if they could only figure out how to. The fact that they haven't figured out to speaks volumes about barriers to entry in Germany.
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


Point me to the entry restrictions that RyanAir faces in Germany, concrete not vague about there must be something.

RyanAir is stopping flights from HAM to LIS. Those flights were packed. RyanAir runs into problems regarding local rules regarding workplace protection, sozial contributions and so on. Than they make a big song and dance about pulling out, but most regulators do not let them come up with that any longer.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3846
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:13 pm

I am not sure what leghorn's point is. Based on his logic, Ryanair should be the dominant domestic force in the UK, France, Spain, Italy etc. These are countries with high-volume domestic routes. The only country where Ryanair has made some effort really is Italy - and mostly on routes crossing water where no alternative surface transport comes into play. I'd say Ryanair's business model is not really suited to domestic flying as it is based on selling extras such as luggage, food, rental cars, hotels - they don't earn anything from selling just a seat for 30 EUR. Domestic travellers are not really the crowd that will fork out money for this ancillary stuff. Earning money from them would require charging a relatively high fare (by FR standards) and on top of that is VAT that only applies to domestic flights.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:25 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

It was nonsense back then and still is. This is a liberal aviation market and no one can stop you from laying on flights.Again, Germany would be sued, and lose, left and right if there where any obstacles.

best regards
Thomas


Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.


No slots no flights is on every slot controlled airport. But you can hardly accuse for example FRA about that. RyanAir got slots in FRA, it was cost that kept them in HHN. RyanAir is not prepared to pay full price for the landing and service at airports.
RyanAir got all the slots they asked for at FRA. Lufthansa started to protest when RyanAir got discounts on what they had to pay for the facilities.

Since FRA got the third parallel runway, 07L/25R, movements have significantly increased and are with 512.000 quite a bit more than in LHR or CDG, both around 480.000. Terminal 3 is being build to accommodate more traffic.

There are no restrictions on competition in Germany in regards to aviation, apart from in regards to example Emirates, airlines from outside of the EEA.. What is missing are airlines, that want to compete against Lufthansa. As it is, RyanAir and easyJet have been growing as competitors, but there is no other full service airline.

I don’t know enough about the German domestic market to say whether Ryanair et al have no opportunity to compete. I’m just pointing out the notion that all an airline has to do is schedule a flight and take off is, like Leghorn said, a fantasy. Barriers and obstacles do exist, in the EU and US (US more about gates then slots). There may be available slots in FRA, but what about TXL, or HAM, or whatever. That is why when Europeans airlines die their slots are usually the hot commodity.

I also want to point out that listing the raw number of movements really doesn’t say all that much about ease of access, just airport size. If an airport has 500000 movements and is 99% full (not that FRA is that full) it still harder to access when it comes to new service compared to one with 400000 movements but 89% full.
 
leghorn
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Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:53 pm

slot constrains; https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1AW1CE

Of course Lufthansa are happy to sit on slots/routes and just put CRJ planes on them to take first/business class customers while preventing the great unwashed from enjoying quick, cheap transport between German cities. That the Federal Government acts against the best interests of its Citizens is the issue here. Having unlimited slots at FRA thanks to it being a sprawling multi-runway airport doesn't help if the destinations are tied up by Lufthansa.
FRA is not the problem. FRAPORT is in the business of making money and is building LCC terminal to generate business.
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:57 pm

Polot wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:

Sure you can. No slots no flights. Ryanair, for example, can’t just double their flights at FRA next month even if they have the aircraft and crew ready.


No slots no flights is on every slot controlled airport. But you can hardly accuse for example FRA about that. RyanAir got slots in FRA, it was cost that kept them in HHN. RyanAir is not prepared to pay full price for the landing and service at airports.
RyanAir got all the slots they asked for at FRA. Lufthansa started to protest when RyanAir got discounts on what they had to pay for the facilities.

Since FRA got the third parallel runway, 07L/25R, movements have significantly increased and are with 512.000 quite a bit more than in LHR or CDG, both around 480.000. Terminal 3 is being build to accommodate more traffic.

There are no restrictions on competition in Germany in regards to aviation, apart from in regards to example Emirates, airlines from outside of the EEA.. What is missing are airlines, that want to compete against Lufthansa. As it is, RyanAir and easyJet have been growing as competitors, but there is no other full service airline.

I don’t know enough about the German domestic market to say whether Ryanair et al have no opportunity to compete. I’m just pointing out the notion that all an airline has to do is schedule a flight and take off is, like Leghorn said, a fantasy. Barriers and obstacles do exist, in the EU and US (US more about gates then slots). There may be available slots in FRA, but what about TXL, or HAM, or whatever. That is why when Europeans airlines die their slots are usually the hot commodity.

I also want to point out that listing the raw number of movements really doesn’t say all that much about ease of access, just airport size. If an airport has 500000 movements and is 99% full (not that FRA is that full) it still harder to access when it comes to new service compared to one with 400000 movements but 89% full.


Listing the raw number of movements, tells you about slots. Movements in 2018 increased more than 7% over 2017. 7% more flights are 7% more slots.

You did not talk about the normal process of adding a new route, you talked about restrictions. When Ryan wants to add a new route, they apply, do the normal stuff, get assigned slots and start.
I can agree that TXL would be difficult, an airport build for 12 million pax running at 22 million, but HAM and FRA should be no big problem.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:22 pm

oschkosch wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
oschkosch wrote:


BUD or OTP are just examples. Replace by CLJ, BEG, TIR, BCN, MXP, whatever.


Perhaps you should not take examples out of thin air, because you do not expect there to be a flight.

MXP, you fly with Eurowings from HAM
BCN, you can take Ryanair or Vueling from HAM
TIR starts on Albawings end of March
BEG is seasonal on Air Serbia

HAM does not offer a direct flight to CLJ, but would it not be perhaps more sensible to travel through OTP than FRA or MUC?

Perhaps you should not dismiss things with whatever and perhaps accept that you did not have a good argument. You have to try obscure destination and you still miss the mark.
The flights HAM to FRA , MUC and DUS are to catch long haul or you have to do something there. There will be exceptions as always, but that is a very small percentage.
ok..... HAJ is my local airport. Get me to CLJ, BEG, MAD, OTP, TIR, MXP whatever. I do HAJ - FRA or MUC and connect onwards to another destination in Europe nearly every week.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


HAJ does hardly compare with HAM in regards to European connections and is a completely different case. But apart from that, I have the feeling that you look on the Lufthansa website and take the flight offered there. Even HAJ has more connections than you seem to realize, but perhaps on airlines you do not use.
 
Lebroncin
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:39 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:32 pm

About the topic of LH German market dominance and barriers of entry:
Image
Source: crankyflier.com, topic of IAG-Air Europa Acquisition

I would focus on MUC instead of FRA. There are no slots available at peak (attractive) times, it has a new terminal co-founded by LH, and the city of Munich is blocking the construction of a third runway that the LH CEO has stated they do not need for the time being, at the same time that LH is moving planes and worforce to Munich. So yes, I consider there are entry barriers in the exact place where competition is most needed, as the LH monopoly has very high fares in what they themselves have called "premium" market. The government should help LCCs in order to lower fares for the average Joe.

Second, on the hub feeder flights like NUE-MUC. Yes, I get the point of these kind of flights. Yes, they have a reason. But does that mean that they should exist? Do we really need unnecessary, highly-contaminating (per-km) 20-min flights just so people can connect? I believe they should be forbidden, and this kind of low-impact, high-reward measures for climate should the ones that should be pursued. I find the sole existence of this flight to be outrageous...
Biz pax can no longer connect. So what? Take the train/car/bus like you would in any other European country. Any person living 1hr out of a major Airport in annther EU country would not even think of flying...

I remember the highly-criticised QR 9-minute flight in the Netherlands... well, here we have 7x daily 20-minute flights...
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:57 pm

Lebroncin wrote:
Second, on the hub feeder flights like NUE-MUC. Yes, I get the point of these kind of flights. Yes, they have a reason. But does that mean that they should exist? Do we really need unnecessary, highly-contaminating (per-km) 20-min flights just so people can connect? I believe they should be forbidden, and this kind of low-impact, high-reward measures for climate should the ones that should be pursued. I find the sole existence of this flight to be outrageous...
Biz pax can no longer connect. So what? Take the train/car/bus like you would in any other European country. Any person living 1hr out of a major Airport in annther EU country would not even think of flying...

I remember the highly-criticised QR 9-minute flight in the Netherlands... well, here we have 7x daily 20-minute flights...

Is it better to have early morning train rides that nobody except airline passengers want to use? There's a reason why there are very few trains at night - no demand. The train is very efficient at 100% loadfactor compared to aircraft. But at lower loadfactors? The new ICE 4 has 830 seats, I don't think its total energy consumption is less than an A320(neo). Even if all 180 passengers transfer from LH's A320 to the ICE, it's going to be a very empty train.

Interesting article here for the cost A320 vs ICE, btw. (german): https://www.airliners.de/bahnfahren-avi ... ment/51438

The airport closest to me is not served by public transport before 5:30, precisely because there are too few passengers to make it worthwhile. So all passengers departing within the first hour of the morning need to travel by car (or taxi), and I'm quite sure that this is more efficient than nearly-empty buses.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 588
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:03 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
But apart from that, I have the feeling that you look on the Lufthansa website and take the flight offered there. Even HAJ has more connections than you seem to realize, but perhaps on airlines you do not use.



I really like your posts normally, but you are very wrong. I call (actually send an email) corporate travel and say:
I need to go to XXX. Arrival time on dd.mm.yy at xx.xx am/pm is required. Return date on dd.mm.yy. I need to check 1 pc of luggage (or hand lugagge only).

Corporate Travel then looks for cheapest flight possible. Full stop. I typically book 4-8 weeks in advance.


Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
dazeflight
Posts: 492
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 1999 1:32 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:08 pm

leghorn wrote:
dazeflight wrote:
leghorn wrote:
My last flights with Ryanair from FRA have been averaging less than 50 euro return on a distance of about 1400km. Ryanair could have twice the number of flights on the same airframe if they could only unlock the German market.


I guess thats why they stopped the flights from Berlin to Cologne. They just didn't make any profit and the same is true for EZY after taking over a lot of routes from Berlin after the AB demise.

...and nothing about Max grounding and reduced fleet.


...surely they cancelled the most profitable routes, didn't they? And EZY is effected exactly how by the Max grounding?
 
Lebroncin
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:39 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:05 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Lebroncin wrote:
Second, on the hub feeder flights like NUE-MUC. Yes, I get the point of these kind of flights. Yes, they have a reason. But does that mean that they should exist? Do we really need unnecessary, highly-contaminating (per-km) 20-min flights just so people can connect? I believe they should be forbidden, and this kind of low-impact, high-reward measures for climate should the ones that should be pursued. I find the sole existence of this flight to be outrageous...
Biz pax can no longer connect. So what? Take the train/car/bus like you would in any other European country. Any person living 1hr out of a major Airport in annther EU country would not even think of flying...

I remember the highly-criticised QR 9-minute flight in the Netherlands... well, here we have 7x daily 20-minute flights...

Is it better to have early morning train rides that nobody except airline passengers want to use? There's a reason why there are very few trains at night - no demand. The train is very efficient at 100% loadfactor compared to aircraft. But at lower loadfactors? The new ICE 4 has 830 seats, I don't think its total energy consumption is less than an A320(neo). Even if all 180 passengers transfer from LH's A320 to the ICE, it's going to be a very empty train.

Interesting article here for the cost A320 vs ICE, btw. (german): https://www.airliners.de/bahnfahren-avi ... ment/51438

The airport closest to me is not served by public transport before 5:30, precisely because there are too few passengers to make it worthwhile. So all passengers departing within the first hour of the morning need to travel by car (or taxi), and I'm quite sure that this is more efficient than nearly-empty buses.



Earliest NUE-MUC arrival time is 10:25. Not sure that counts as early morning arrival, but if we do, there are still 3x other daily flights on this particular route. Any way you want to look at this, it is nonsense to have this flight from a climate perspective. Not everybody can fly comfortably from an airport near their home/work.
By the way. the flight is on a CRJ9.

Thanks for the article, was surely a very interesting read!
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:18 pm

dazeflight wrote:
...surely they cancelled the most profitable routes, didn't they?

They're retrenching out of Germany to make militant German pilots unemployed and Germany will be served by Buzz bases as much as possible going forward . That is how they'll serve the German market going forward.
 
masi1157
Posts: 434
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:56 am

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:53 pm

Lebroncin wrote:
Earliest NUE-MUC arrival time is 10:25.


Ha, good point! And it seems the latest flight back leaves at 19:05 from MUC. Not exactly an alternative to the latest trains leaving around 22:00 (as we learned earlier upthread). For STR-MUC it looks a bit better. There is an early flight arriving at MUC just before 7:00, and a late flight back at 21:45.


Gruß, masi1157
517 different segments on 101 airlines to 212 airports in 55 countries
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: LH Group's German domestic network is massive

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:43 am

Lebroncin wrote:
About the topic of LH German market dominance and barriers of entry:
Image
Source: crankyflier.com, topic of IAG-Air Europa Acquisition

I would focus on MUC instead of FRA. There are no slots available at peak (attractive) times, it has a new terminal co-founded by LH, and the city of Munich is blocking the construction of a third runway that the LH CEO has stated they do not need for the time being, at the same time that LH is moving planes and worforce to Munich. So yes, I consider there are entry barriers in the exact place where competition is most needed, as the LH monopoly has very high fares in what they themselves have called "premium" market. The government should help LCCs in order to lower fares for the average Joe.

Second, on the hub feeder flights like NUE-MUC. Yes, I get the point of these kind of flights. Yes, they have a reason. But does that mean that they should exist? Do we really need unnecessary, highly-contaminating (per-km) 20-min flights just so people can connect? I believe they should be forbidden, and this kind of low-impact, high-reward measures for climate should the ones that should be pursued. I find the sole existence of this flight to be outrageous...
Biz pax can no longer connect. So what? Take the train/car/bus like you would in any other European country. Any person living 1hr out of a major Airport in annther EU country would not even think of flying...

I remember the highly-criticised QR 9-minute flight in the Netherlands... well, here we have 7x daily 20-minute flights...


We all know that Lufthansa has a big presents in Germany and we know that they have a big parts of the slots at their hub. The question is just, is that a proof of manipulation or restrictions?

We really have to look at movements, are they limited, is the limit reached, or how would a restrictive policy work? There is now legal way to give LH an edge apart from them beieng the incumbent in regards to slots and nowhere slots are taken and redistributed as long thy are used.

FRA has a third parallel runway, movements grow considerable between the years. The limiting factor in FRA is terminal space and a new terminal is build. FRA, to the anger of LH, is actively looking for customers adding flights I do not see any restrictive policy to aid LH.

MUC has two fully independent runways, is at about 415,000 movements, should able to expand the number of movements and is growing (LHR has 480,000 movements). The do not seem to go after new airlines, but they are not discouraging. LH has actually a bigger influence here than at FRA.

TXL is in regards to capacity right to the wall, self limiting.

No other airport in Germany is in any way slot restricted.

The graph you show, does not account for the size of frame the Hub carrier is flying. At MUC and FRA LH is using a lot of big wide body frames, that can skew the picture.

I am fully of the opinion if some European carrier other than LH, wants to fly new routes they will not face any restriction. But they have to have the will to do it.

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