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lightmac
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Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 am

The LH-group has seven brands for long-haul flights: The four legacy brands (LH, SWISS, Austrian and Brussels), Eurowings and Edelweiss, typically used for leisure destinations and LH CityLine for low-yield destinations. Here is North-America:as an example: CL currently flies to Tampa/FL, Eurowings to NYC and Miami and Edelweiss to Tampa.
The division between the main brands should depend on the size of the market: Smaller marktes like Atlanta Austin Dallas Detroit Houston Seattle Orlando San Diego Toronto, Vancouver and Philadelphia only have LH-flights to FRA. The exception is Charlotte, which has only MUC-flights, but none to FRA.
Slightly larger markets such as Denver have flights to both LH hubs, but neither to Zurich nor Vienna. Three cities, Boston, SFO and LAX, have LH to FRA and MUC and LX to Zürich, but no AUA. Chicago has "all four" (LH to FRA and MUC, AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH). Miami has Düsseldorf by EW, LH to FRA and MUC, LX to Zurich, but no AUA while Montreal has LH to MUC but not FRA (unusual) and AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH. Dulles also is odd since it has LH to FRA and MUC, AUA to VIE, but no LX, yet SN to BRU. The biggest market, New York has any possible hub-connection (Brussels to BRU, EW to DUS, LH to FRA and MUC, LX to ZRH and GVA and AUA to VIE). Of course the alliance with UAL and AC play a role, but does LH want to disguise its true size with seven brands flying Europe-North America or is the somewhat confusing brand mix ready for an update?
 
runway23
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:33 am

I think you'll find that WK has service to YVR, TPA, SAN, MCO.
OS will start BOS later this year.
Also, LX serves YUL and IAD begins in March. SN flies to IAD also.
LH serves YUL from FRA seasonally on top of MUC year round.

Other than that, might be useful to skip lines between your thoughts as it is hard to read.
 
steman
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am

Don´t look at it from an aviation enthusiast point of view but from a passenger point of view.
CityLine is for pax just Lufthansa, only that the airplanes are in the Star Alliance livery. Edelweiss only caters the Swiss leisure market so it´s not confusing for people starting from, say, Frankfurt.
Eurowings is (in theory) a low cost carrier. Everybody knows it´s part of LH Group but not quite Lufthansa.
The others are national airlines who happen to be in the same group and don´t share hubs, so I don´t see where the brand confusion is.
Destinations are served based on the potential of each one and also keeping in mind that a destination might be better served by a JV partner like AC or UA and there´s no need for LH to serve it from all its european hubs/brands.
 
LH779
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:19 am

lightmac wrote:
Smaller marktes like Atlanta Austin Dallas Detroit Houston Seattle Orlando San Diego Toronto, Vancouver and Philadelphia only have LH-flights to FRA. The exception is Charlotte, which has only MUC-flights, but none to FRA.

MUC - YYZ and YVR are summer seasonal, service from MUC to DTW and SEA starts this summer.

lightmac wrote:
LH to MUC but not FRA (unusual) and AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH.

FRA - YUL is also summer seasonal (although operated by LH Cityline, the brand is regular LH).

And for some routes there are flights by JV partners AC and UA. MUC-YYZ and FRA-YUL for example are served by AC with an additional flight by LH in the summer. MUC-IAH has a daily UA flight.
 
runway23
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:21 am

steman wrote:
Edelweiss only caters the Swiss leisure market so it´s not confusing for people starting from, say, Frankfurt.


Not quite accurate, pretty much the entire WK network has LX codeshares on it and connections are sold from destinations around the LX network.
 
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Polot
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:49 am

steman wrote:
CityLine is for pax just Lufthansa, only that the airplanes are in the Star Alliance livery.

The CityLine A340 operations is being phased out (already phased out?). It was only done to lower costs (and in Star livery because per contract rules they couldn’t fly aircraft with Lufthansa titles). LH reached a new agreement with their crew lowering costs and CityLine was no longer needed.


As for the OP- you are looking at this too much at just the LH group. You have to consider national boundaries and marketing (Swiss people probably wouldn’t like it if their airline was branded Lufthansa). Just because some markets work for some LH group hubs doesn’t mean they work for all.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DXTraveler
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:50 am

FRA-ADD-FRA (LH 598/599) operated by Cityline.
 
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CPS001
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:06 pm

Cityline operates 4 A343: D-AIGP, D-AIGW, D-AIFE and D-AIFF. As of W19 it serves Addis Ababa, Chennai and Tampa. These aircraft are in a Y-heavy configuration.
 
steman
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:29 pm

runway23 wrote:
steman wrote:
Edelweiss only caters the Swiss leisure market so it´s not confusing for people starting from, say, Frankfurt.


Not quite accurate, pretty much the entire WK network has LX codeshares on it and connections are sold from destinations around the LX network.


I stand corrected, thank you.
But it doesn´t change the fact that it is still a Swiss operator and it doesn´t cause, in my opinion, confusion in the overall LH Group network.
 
mileduets
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:33 pm

Polot wrote:
steman wrote:
You have to consider national boundaries and marketing (Swiss people probably wouldn’t like it if their airline was branded Lufthansa). Just because some markets work for some LH group hubs doesn’t mean they work for all.


This pretty much gives the answer to the original question : Passenger identify much more with their "National Airline" than with the LH brand. They are flag carriers and clearly advertise it as such. If you look at a Swiss TV commercial from Swiss and Edelweiss cater for the Swiss. Swiss Airlines TV spot tend to be almost nauseating nationalistic. And I'm telling this as a Swiss...
 
westaust
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:46 pm

YUL will get all 4 main Lufthansa brand by next summer and will be connected to all main LH&co hubs
LH to MUC and FRA (seasonal)
LX to ZRH
OS to VIE
and SN to BRU

in addition to AC flights from the TATL JV to FRA, BRU and GVA

No need for WK flight as there is already LX flying the route
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:58 pm

CPS001 wrote:
Cityline operates 4 A343: D-AIGP, D-AIGW, D-AIFE and D-AIFF. As of W19 it serves Addis Ababa, Chennai and Tampa. These aircraft are in a Y-heavy configuration.

Although the last 3 are to be repainted into standard new cs in March - May. So most likely they will attend the Mainline fleet again.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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CPS001
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:20 pm

A321Lufthansa wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Cityline operates 4 A343: D-AIGP, D-AIGW, D-AIFE and D-AIFF. As of W19 it serves Addis Ababa, Chennai and Tampa. These aircraft are in a Y-heavy configuration.

Although the last 3 are to be repainted into standard new cs in March - May. So most likely they will attend the Mainline fleet again.


Is AIGP leaving the fleet for good? Or staying in Cityline config?

Do these changes mark the end of the Cityline longhaul ops?
 
LH779
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:54 pm

CPS001 wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
CPS001 wrote:
Cityline operates 4 A343: D-AIGP, D-AIGW, D-AIFE and D-AIFF. As of W19 it serves Addis Ababa, Chennai and Tampa. These aircraft are in a Y-heavy configuration.

Although the last 3 are to be repainted into standard new cs in March - May. So most likely they will attend the Mainline fleet again.


Is AIGP leaving the fleet for good? Or staying in Cityline config?


Maybe they keep it in Star Alliance paint and just add the LH titles. Apart from the 4 Cityline operated planes there are only two other *A painted longhaul aircraft in the LH fleet (also A343s).

CPS001 wrote:
Do these changes mark the end of the Cityline longhaul ops?


Yes and maybe no. It was decided last year (IIRC) to end the Cityline longhaul ops and move the planes back to mainline. But in the last few weeks there have been rumours that LH Cityline might be the AOC for the rebranded LH group leisure longhaul project to replace EW longhaul.
 
vandoc
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:27 pm

The used brand depends on the catered market (as of end 2019):
FRA and MUC (network and business): Lufthansa
FRA and MUC (leisure): Eurowings and Cityline. Cityline flew on behalf of Lufthansa as part of the Jump project. Jump will be terminated and all 340s will go back to LH.
Decentral Germany (currently only DUS): Eurowings and Brussels. (See below -> project Ocean)
BRU: all flights operated by Brussels
VIE: all flights operated by Austrian
ZRH (network and business): most flights are operated by Swiss. Some flights are operated by Edelweiss on behalf of Swiss (cheaper costs)
ZRH (leisure): flights are operated by Edelweiss but with LX codeshare.
The different brands arr retained due to national feelings and due to historical reasons.

Project Ocean: Currently the EW longhaul ops are operated by SunExpress Germany and Brussels. Because of Turkish Airlines (co-owner of SunExpress), SunExpress is not allowed to operate more than 7 A330s. Therefore, Brussels operates the additional ones. The EW longhauls are organised by Lufthansa. In the future, all leisure and decentral longhaul routes shall be operated by a single AOC. It is rumored that this AOC might be Cityline. It is also rumored that it might be Brussels or Germanwings. A decision was expected before christmas but it was postpones.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:06 pm

GIG sees daily Edelweiss services from ZRH
 
yyztpa2
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:34 am

vandoc wrote:
The used brand depends on the catered market (as of end 2019):
FRA and MUC (network and business): Lufthansa
FRA and MUC (leisure): Eurowings and Cityline. Cityline flew on behalf of Lufthansa as part of the Jump project. Jump will be terminated and all 340s will go back to LH.
Decentral Germany (currently only DUS): Eurowings and Brussels. (See below -> project Ocean)
BRU: all flights operated by Brussels
VIE: all flights operated by Austrian
ZRH (network and business): most flights are operated by Swiss. Some flights are operated by Edelweiss on behalf of Swiss (cheaper costs)
ZRH (leisure): flights are operated by Edelweiss but with LX codeshare.
The different brands arr retained due to national feelings and due to historical reasons.

Project Ocean: Currently the EW longhaul ops are operated by SunExpress Germany and Brussels. Because of Turkish Airlines (co-owner of SunExpress), SunExpress is not allowed to operate more than 7 A330s. Therefore, Brussels operates the additional ones. The EW longhauls are organised by Lufthansa. In the future, all leisure and decentral longhaul routes shall be operated by a single AOC. It is rumored that this AOC might be Cityline. It is also rumored that it might be Brussels or Germanwings. A decision was expected before christmas but it was postpones.

I also read that each of FRA and MUC will have their own 'CEO' resulting in an LH-FRA and an LH-MUC. LH Group seems to be transitioning to a model based on the individual hubs with brands to reflect local sentiment in MUC, VIE, BRU, ZRH, and FRA.
 
sf260
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 am

vandoc wrote:
Project Ocean: Currently the EW longhaul ops are operated by SunExpress Germany and Brussels. Because of Turkish Airlines (co-owner of SunExpress), SunExpress is not allowed to operate more than 7 A330s. Therefore, Brussels operates the additional ones. The EW longhauls are organised by Lufthansa. In the future, all leisure and decentral longhaul routes shall be operated by a single AOC. It is rumored that this AOC might be Cityline. It is also rumored that it might be Brussels or Germanwings. A decision was expected before christmas but it was postpones.

Thanks for your insights. I had the impression that the Germanwings AOC was going to dissappear (to be consolidated with Eurowings short haul) and is out of question for project Ocean. I might be wrong of course. That would leave the contenders for EW long haul to SN and Cityline. Imo, Cityline should focus on providing regional capacity to the LH Group (with CRJ and/or Embraer) and it would make more sense for Brussels Airlines to expand its low cost long haul services, they already have a fleet of 10 A330’s, but I might be biased.

The EW long haul brand is also going to disappear. As from this year, EW has nothing to do anymore with the long haul ops, the EW paint on the 7 SXD and 4 SN a/c are just creating more confusion for everyone, also internally. SXD and SN are the operators, Lufthansa (mainline) is doing the marketing & sales since 1 january.

The LH group should focus on reducing complexity instead of adding more a/c types to different AOC’s. In theory, it’s nice to have a standard fleet and change a/c quickly between AOC’s, the reality is very different and it is not so easy, nor efficient, to change a/c between AOC’s every couple of years.
 
eurotrader85
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:44 pm

mileduets wrote:
Polot wrote:
steman wrote:
You have to consider national boundaries and marketing (Swiss people probably wouldn’t like it if their airline was branded Lufthansa). Just because some markets work for some LH group hubs doesn’t mean they work for all.


This pretty much gives the answer to the original question : Passenger identify much more with their "National Airline" than with the LH brand. They are flag carriers and clearly advertise it as such. If you look at a Swiss TV commercial from Swiss and Edelweiss cater for the Swiss. Swiss Airlines TV spot tend to be almost nauseating nationalistic. And I'm telling this as a Swiss...


I agree. Basically I have always seen the legacy carriers of LH group catering to the markets in two ways. 1) depending on the market of their local O&D as the above points out. But in addition, 2) how the capacity mixes in the overall LH group capacity. Take flying to PVG. LH fly both at MUC (380) and FRA (346) and think a third is added in the summer. LX fly once a day (346) and OS a few times a week on a 772. OS aside, although could be said to be additional peak capacity to LX, they fly at differing times of the day, spreading capacity across the network. Personally, I am apathetic to flying between LX or LH so I naturally pick the one where the times make most sense given LH group connections across Europe into their hubs is very decent IMO.

I think LH group are very good at spreading capacity around their four ‘main’ hubs (Put the BRU hub to one side as LH try to work out what to do with it, other than use it for African flights within the group). All hubs located in central Europe, all with good connections. Instead of flying 4 times a day out of FRA, they split it up, maximising local O&D traffic while still giving the multiple flight offerings to business customers.

The comments have been made about TATL, but the same applies. Capacity is added across the hubs as needed, while also allowing for local brands to maximise the local O&D.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:41 pm

lightmac wrote:
The LH-group has seven brands for long-haul flights: The four legacy brands (LH, SWISS, Austrian and Brussels), Eurowings and Edelweiss, typically used for leisure destinations and LH CityLine for low-yield destinations. Here is North-America:as an example: CL currently flies to Tampa/FL, Eurowings to NYC and Miami and Edelweiss to Tampa.
The division between the main brands should depend on the size of the market: Smaller marktes like Atlanta Austin Dallas Detroit Houston Seattle Orlando San Diego Toronto, Vancouver and Philadelphia only have LH-flights to FRA. The exception is Charlotte, which has only MUC-flights, but none to FRA.
Slightly larger markets such as Denver have flights to both LH hubs, but neither to Zurich nor Vienna. Three cities, Boston, SFO and LAX, have LH to FRA and MUC and LX to Zürich, but no AUA. Chicago has "all four" (LH to FRA and MUC, AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH). Miami has Düsseldorf by EW, LH to FRA and MUC, LX to Zurich, but no AUA while Montreal has LH to MUC but not FRA (unusual) and AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH. Dulles also is odd since it has LH to FRA and MUC, AUA to VIE, but no LX, yet SN to BRU. The biggest market, New York has any possible hub-connection (Brussels to BRU, EW to DUS, LH to FRA and MUC, LX to ZRH and GVA and AUA to VIE). Of course the alliance with UAL and AC play a role, but does LH want to disguise its true size with seven brands flying Europe-North America or is the somewhat confusing brand mix ready for an update?


You missed JFK-GVA on Swiss. I'm sure they fly GVA to other cities as well, but I know this because I absolutely *LOVE* connecting in GVA.
Last edited by WorldFlier on Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
yvphx
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:03 pm

I don’t see it posted yet, but starting end of April 2020, EW will fly 5 times a week FRA-PHX-FRA on a EW aircraft, using sun express crew? Or maybe its sun express aircraft and EW crew. Can’t exactly remember. But its something extra for PHX which only currently has 1x PHX-LHR on BA, and 1x PHX-LHR on AA.
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:15 am

yvphx wrote:
I don’t see it posted yet, but starting end of April 2020, EW will fly 5 times a week FRA-PHX-FRA on a EW aircraft, using sun express crew? Or maybe its sun express aircraft and EW crew. Can’t exactly remember. But its something extra for PHX which only currently has 1x PHX-LHR on BA, and 1x PHX-LHR on AA.


This was announced in August last year, this is in addition to DE 3x weekly FRA-PHX
 
B747forever
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:28 am

lightmac wrote:
Three cities, Boston, SFO and LAX, have LH to FRA and MUC and LX to Zürich, but no AUA. Chicago has "all four" (LH to FRA and MUC, AUA to VIE and LX to ZRH).


LAX does have OS to VIE, albeit it is a summer seasonal flight.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Jomar777
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Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:15 am

    ojjunior wrote:
    GIG sees daily Edelweiss services from ZRH

    Has also Lfthansa flying there too.
    As GRU sees two legacy airlines - LH and LX.
     
    Bhoy
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    Re: Where does the LH Group send its different brands in intercontinental travel?

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:53 pm

    WorldFlier wrote:
    You missed JFK-GVA on Swiss. I'm sure they fly GVA to other cities as well, but I know this because I absolutely *LOVE* connecting in GVA.

    JFK is the only LX operated long haul flight from GVA (although they codeshare on UA and AC as part of the joint venture to IAD/EWR* and YUL(-YYZ)** respectively).

    *UA956/7 EWR-GVA-EWR 763; UA974/5 IAD-GVA-IAD 763
    **AC834/5 are through flights YYZ-YUL-GVA-YUL-YYZ 333 in the summer, and YUL-GVA-YUL 333 only in the winter.

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