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Ishrion
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JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:49 pm

American Airlines and British Airways Mark the Official Start of the JFK Redevelopment Plan: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx
 
tkoenig95
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:57 pm

Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines and British Airways Mark the Official Start of the JFK Redevelopment Plan: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

Possibly AA are waiting till the terminal redevelop to beef up JFK again?
 
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psa1011
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:58 pm

So what will happen to T7/AS?
 
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Polot
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:00 pm

tkoenig95 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines and British Airways Mark the Official Start of the JFK Redevelopment Plan: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

Possibly AA are waiting till the terminal redevelop to beef up JFK again?

Doubtful. This is more of a facelift than a “redevelopment,” and BA/IB will be taking up a lot of the extra gates/space.
 
dstblj52
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:13 pm

Polot wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines and British Airways Mark the Official Start of the JFK Redevelopment Plan: http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

Possibly AA are waiting till the terminal redevelop to beef up JFK again?

Doubtful. This is more of a facelift than a “redevelopment,” and BA/IB will be taking up a lot of the extra gates/space.

This is basically an admittance that rebuilding JFK is not in the cards, there giving up T7 and with it the low utilization gates they would need to rebuild, in exchange for lower overall operating costs (one terminal vs two).
 
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william
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:23 pm

Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?
 
Ishrion
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:28 pm

william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


There will be 9 new gates: 5 jetbridges and 4 bus gates
 
tphuang
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:38 pm

Ishrion wrote:
william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


There will be 9 new gates: 5 jetbridges and 4 bus gates

Only 2 are new. Others are by reconfiguring other gates. The regional gates are going away if I remember correctly.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:39 pm

Thought the BA 77W fleet was being reworked with the new J suites to be premium heavy at 8F/76J/48W/140Y for a lot of the LHR-JFK flights...?
 
jbs2886
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:56 pm

william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


That terminal is a ghost town every time I've been in it.
 
strfyr51
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:05 pm

The problem with JFK is that it was built on an long ago concept of each airline or group having it's own terminal, And that worked them but this is now . On the same realestate that spawned those super fort terminals? they could build a 200 gate super terminal for widebodies and a separate 100 gate terminal for Narrowbodies. The trouble is? the Lack of Coordination and vision it would take to do it. Somebody would have to give up some flights to make it happen and for quite a while and maybe have to move out to Stewart until the JFK revamp is done. I know it would be painful but were the Port authority to fast track the design and build teams so that 2 prime contractors start at each end of the terminal with incentives for flawless work? I could be done in a 10year time limit and give JFK an airport until the 2075 region or allow Port authority to be connected as eventually? PHL and Dover will have to be connected and Baltimore, Washington Regan and Dulles will need to be connected. I see this not only for the east coast but for the San J Orange county ose, San Francisco and Oakland Triangle plus the LAX,SNA BUR,& ONT situation as Lax is or soon will be overcrowded and Rial service will be the only means of getting through the future without razing entire municipalities and being locked in court battles until 2090.. But? It's just a thought. I will not live long enough to see any of it happen.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:10 pm

psa1011 wrote:
So what will happen to T7/AS?

T7 will be demolished and rebuilt as an extension of T5, to be known as the North Terminal. The project will happen in phases, some good information is linked in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437559
 
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Aisak
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:14 pm

Ishrion wrote:
There will be 9 new gates: 5 jetbridges and 4 bus gates

tphuang wrote:
Only 2 are new. Others are by reconfiguring other gates. The regional gates are going away if I remember correctly.


Wow. I thought 9 parking spaces were tight to acommodate all the operations currently housed by the BA terminal 7, with 12 stands, all of them attached to the building terminal.

Being 5 contact gates, with 4 remotes for overflow, might just be enough for BA and IB. And maybe just add Aer Lingus to the pot, as being owned by same partner company IAG, sometime in the future they might want to lower costs by sharing facilities.

By if all the expansion is just adding a net count of 2. That would be impressively short-sighted.

Of course, it’s not BA’s or now AA’s, responsibility to build up its own terminal just to hold others, but lots of flights now at T7 will have to go elsewhere. JFK is getting quite sort of terminal space these coming years.
 
N649DL
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:14 pm

If BA moves to 8, what are they going to do with Terminal 7 which is owned by BA? Is it for sure going to be demolished? It's actually a pretty nice terminal, especially the check-in areas.

Could this be a good time for UA to move back in?

strfyr51 wrote:
The problem with JFK is that it was built on an long ago concept of each airline or group having it's own terminal, And that worked them but this is now . On the same realestate that spawned those super fort terminals? they could build a 200 gate super terminal for widebodies and a separate 100 gate terminal for Narrowbodies. The trouble is? the Lack of Coordination and vision it would take to do it. Somebody would have to give up some flights to make it happen and for quite a while and maybe have to move out to Stewart until the JFK revamp is done. I know it would be painful but were the Port authority to fast track the design and build teams so that 2 prime contractors start at each end of the terminal with incentives for flawless work? I could be done in a 10year time limit and give JFK an airport until the 2075 region or allow Port authority to be connected as eventually? PHL and Dover will have to be connected and Baltimore, Washington Regan and Dulles will need to be connected. I see this not only for the east coast but for the San J Orange county ose, San Francisco and Oakland Triangle plus the LAX,SNA BUR,& ONT situation as Lax is or soon will be overcrowded and Rial service will be the only means of getting through the future without razing entire municipalities and being locked in court battles until 2090.. But? It's just a thought. I will not live long enough to see any of it happen.


It was a great concept, but worth noting that most of the terminals are now gone except for Terminal 7 and Terminal 2 (and 5 if you want to count it as the TWA Hotel.) They all had a lot of personality to them as well. I can't find much on the former UA or EA Terminals in terms of what they looked like before they were demolished.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:21 pm

N649DL wrote:
If BA moves to 8, what are they going to do with Terminal 7 which is owned by BA? Is it for sure going to be demolished? It's actually a pretty nice terminal, especially the check-in areas.

Could this be a good time for UA to move back in?

strfyr51 wrote:
The problem with JFK is that it was built on an long ago concept of each airline or group having it's own terminal, And that worked them but this is now . On the same realestate that spawned those super fort terminals? they could build a 200 gate super terminal for widebodies and a separate 100 gate terminal for Narrowbodies. The trouble is? the Lack of Coordination and vision it would take to do it. Somebody would have to give up some flights to make it happen and for quite a while and maybe have to move out to Stewart until the JFK revamp is done. I know it would be painful but were the Port authority to fast track the design and build teams so that 2 prime contractors start at each end of the terminal with incentives for flawless work? I could be done in a 10year time limit and give JFK an airport until the 2075 region or allow Port authority to be connected as eventually? PHL and Dover will have to be connected and Baltimore, Washington Regan and Dulles will need to be connected. I see this not only for the east coast but for the San J Orange county ose, San Francisco and Oakland Triangle plus the LAX,SNA BUR,& ONT situation as Lax is or soon will be overcrowded and Rial service will be the only means of getting through the future without razing entire municipalities and being locked in court battles until 2090.. But? It's just a thought. I will not live long enough to see any of it happen.


It was a great concept, but worth noting that most of the terminals are now gone except for Terminal 7 and Terminal 2 (and 5 if you want to count it as the TWA Hotel.) They all had a lot of personality to them as well. I can't find much on the former UA or EA Terminals in terms of what they looked like before they were demolished.


The current plan calls for the following:
- T5 to be expanded to take up some of the old T6 footprint by 2023
- T7 will be demolished 2023-2024
- T5 (North Terminal) consumes former footprint of T7 by end of 2025

The dates are likely to slip, but that’s the outline of the North Terminal build in the plan.
 
HunterATL
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:29 pm

N649DL wrote:
If BA moves to 8, what are they going to do with Terminal 7 which is owned by BA? Is it for sure going to be demolished? It's actually a pretty nice terminal, especially the check-in areas.

Could this be a good time for UA to move back in?


BA does not own Terminal 7. All terminals are owned by New York City because they are built on land owned by New York City. BA's operating lease for Terminal 7 expires in 2022 at which time it will move to Terminal 8. Shortly thereafter, B6 will begin its lease for the land on which Terminal 7 was built. Pursuant to the requirements of its lease, B6 will design and construct a new international facility connected to Terminal 5 which will have approximately 12 widebody gates.
 
jfk777
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:36 pm

Hoping AA would use the occasion of BA moving into T8 to complete the terminal to its original pre 9/11 specifications. BA has a huge JFK operation needing space for several lounges, BA probably wants their own terminal within the terminal with their own check-in area and lounges.
 
FSDan
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:53 pm

I sincerely hope the 4 remote stands will be used mostly for parking aircraft that sit on the ground for long periods of time (similar to DL's space where T3 used to be), and not as bus gates unless absolutely needed... Having a hardstand operation in a city with real winter weather doesn't seem like much of a premium proposition for the world's most lucrative route.

I suppose at the very least the JFK-LHR flights can be prioritized to jetbridge gates, with less competitive flights like JFK-EZE or JFK-BCN getting the bus operation if needed.

Another factor might be LA. They're currently operating out of T8, but with the future DL tie-up I wonder if they might end up somewhere else a few years down the road. That would free up some additional capacity at T8 in the evenings.
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HunterATL
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:11 am

FSDan wrote:
I sincerely hope the 4 remote stands will be used mostly for parking aircraft that sit on the ground for long periods of time (similar to DL's space where T3 used to be), and not as bus gates unless absolutely needed... Having a hardstand operation in a city with real winter weather doesn't seem like much of a premium proposition for the world's most lucrative route.

I suppose at the very least the JFK-LHR flights can be prioritized to jetbridge gates, with less competitive flights like JFK-EZE or JFK-BCN getting the bus operation if needed.

Another factor might be LA. They're currently operating out of T8, but with the future DL tie-up I wonder if they might end up somewhere else a few years down the road. That would free up some additional capacity at T8 in the evenings.


None of the plans or environmental studies mention the construction of busing gates, merely 4 hard stands. Busing gates would likely need to be discussed in any environmental study. Presently, there is no part of Terminal 8 which can handle busing, let alone this potential level of busing, so I doubt these stands will be anything more than a parking lot similar to Delta's Terminal 3 spaces.

Although final plans have not been released by the governor's office or the Port Authority, the original plan for the redevelopment was for Terminal 1 to handle the airlines with ownership in the Terminal 1 Consortium plus all other Star Alliance carriers. Terminal 4 would handle Delta with SkyTeam and Delta's partners split between 1 and 4. Terminal 5 and the new expansion would handle B6 and its partners, and Terminal 8 would handle all OneWorld carriers which do not participate in the Terminal 1 Consortium. Unaligned carriers would then be split between Terminal 1 and the 5 expansion with carriers in need of late night/early morning FIS in Terminal 1. The original plan, however, envisioned a much larger redevelopment of JFK and was prepared before several changes in alliances/partnerships.
 
N649DL
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:16 am

HunterATL wrote:
N649DL wrote:
If BA moves to 8, what are they going to do with Terminal 7 which is owned by BA? Is it for sure going to be demolished? It's actually a pretty nice terminal, especially the check-in areas.

Could this be a good time for UA to move back in?


BA does not own Terminal 7. All terminals are owned by New York City because they are built on land owned by New York City. BA's operating lease for Terminal 7 expires in 2022 at which time it will move to Terminal 8. Shortly thereafter, B6 will begin its lease for the land on which Terminal 7 was built. Pursuant to the requirements of its lease, B6 will design and construct a new international facility connected to Terminal 5 which will have approximately 12 widebody gates.


Ah got it. Thanks for this. Sad to see T7 go away though. B6 doesn't have widebodies though and T7 already has them configured from when UA and BA already there. Seems like kind of a waste, IMHO.
 
jfk777
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:46 am

N649DL wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
N649DL wrote:
If BA moves to 8, what are they going to do with Terminal 7 which is owned by BA? Is it for sure going to be demolished? It's actually a pretty nice terminal, especially the check-in areas.

Could this be a good time for UA to move back in?


BA does not own Terminal 7. All terminals are owned by New York City because they are built on land owned by New York City. BA's operating lease for Terminal 7 expires in 2022 at which time it will move to Terminal 8. Shortly thereafter, B6 will begin its lease for the land on which Terminal 7 was built. Pursuant to the requirements of its lease, B6 will design and construct a new international facility connected to Terminal 5 which will have approximately 12 widebody gates.


Ah got it. Thanks for this. Sad to see T7 go away though. B6 doesn't have widebodies though and T7 already has them configured from when UA and BA already there. Seems like kind of a waste, IMHO.


BA T7 is well past its expiration date, it was designed from another era for far fewer people then are using it today. A new building for today's operations is far better then a 50 year old terminal designed BOAC & Air Canada. It has served BA including the Concorde very nicely but with the increasing amount of BA flights it has become constrained for space.
 
atlflyer
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:53 am

jbs2886 wrote:
william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


That terminal is a ghost town every time I've been in it.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... erminal-8/

Pointsguy has an updated rendering of T8 after the renovation in the link.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:01 am

atlflyer wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


That terminal is a ghost town every time I've been in it.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... erminal-8/

Pointsguy has an updated rendering of T8 after the renovation in the link.


I’m going to miss T7. Worked there for many years before we closed. From the rendering, it looks like the new gates will be built in the area behind the control tower that houses the inbound transfer bag belts.
 
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N62NA
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:26 am

Was hoping they were going to finish building out T8. Oh well, maybe in the late 30s!
 
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william
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:42 am

atlflyer wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
william wrote:
Image

So the headhouse will not be expanded? Has AA shrunk THAT much at JFK?


That terminal is a ghost town every time I've been in it.


https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... erminal-8/

Pointsguy has an updated rendering of T8 after the renovation in the link.


Image

Its no BA Terminal 5 in London but it will do. I agree with the other posters, odd that AA/BA does not think the increase in pax does not require the head house being expanded to full capacity.
 
spacecadet
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:50 am

N649DL wrote:
Ah got it. Thanks for this. Sad to see T7 go away though. B6 doesn't have widebodies though and T7 already has them configured from when UA and BA already there. Seems like kind of a waste, IMHO.


You're assuming nothing ever changes, which clearly, things do.

And T7 doesn't do B6 any good.
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:54 am

What is lost in the discussion above is that British could move into the terminal tomorrow and have space for their entire operation...That is how much American has shrunk

Consider it lucky that they are expanding it and refreshing it at all

If you get the opportunity over the next few months, walk through the terminal during peak hours...eerily quiet

The whole terminal was built for an expansion that American never undertook. Then they reduced

The number of eagle gates was increased in 2005 at the completion of the terminal. That is because American shrunk the terminal so much during construction, That the port authority had a minimum number of gates that had to be met

That is why they added that whole north wing of regional gates. They were never needed

It looks as if the inner RJ gates Will be converted to widebody while the northern gates or outer gates will be used for the consolidated regional facility

The outer RJ gates were originally a single WB gate. AA would park 777s there
 
questions
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:56 am

T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.
 
jfk777
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:49 pm

questions wrote:
T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.


What is the fascination some folks have with AA and Delta switching their terminals at JFK, AAn airline can never control too much real estate at JFK. AA and OW are in control of their terminal 8 and any future developments the OW alliance has at JFK. Why is it everyone else's problem Delta moved to Terminal 4 and lost the capacity of T3( old Pan am ). JFK is short one whole terminal so they better get going on the terminal 1 expansion so that terminal takes up all the sight of current Terminals 1,2 &3. Delta's terminal shortage is Delta's not everyones, if JFK doesn't do it for them they can expand in Atlanta.
 
ryby92
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:18 pm

jfk777 wrote:
questions wrote:
T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.


What is the fascination some folks have with AA and Delta switching their terminals at JFK, AAn airline can never control too much real estate at JFK. AA and OW are in control of their terminal 8 and any future developments the OW alliance has at JFK. Why is it everyone else's problem Delta moved to Terminal 4 and lost the capacity of T3( old Pan am ). JFK is short one whole terminal so they better get going on the terminal 1 expansion so that terminal takes up all the sight of current Terminals 1,2 &3. Delta's terminal shortage is Delta's not everyones, if JFK doesn't do it for them they can expand in Atlanta.


JFK777, correct and right on! AA owes Delta nothing. Why should AA have to surrender or switch terminals to please Delta?
 
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tlecam
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:44 pm

questions wrote:
T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.


I don’t understand your reasoning.
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tphuang
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:53 pm

AA already gifted every other terminal operator in JFK by not putting its own proposal in until late. Which allowed every other operator to get a huge expansion. Not sure why people think AA need to give even more.

One thing I would say about BA moving in is that Flagship lounge is going to get a whole lot more crowded even with the expansion. I used to come early before my flight and go to the Bridge and enjoy probably the most underrated part of AA's lounge service. With all the BA customers coming in, that place will probably look a lot more like T4 SkyClubs.
 
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Polot
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:58 pm

tlecam wrote:
questions wrote:
T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.


I don’t understand your reasoning.

The reasoning essentially boils down to “T8 is nicer than T4 so DL should have it.”

Never mind that as things are right now T4 is larger, or that T4 is still waiting T4A expansion, or DL’s T2 ops, or T8 fully built out wouldn’t give DL any more space once you alter the design for modern day realities (a lot less 50 seaters and turboprops now than when designed in late 90s, early 2000), or that DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:11 pm

T4 is way more up to date than T8 at this point

T8 is 2005 chic

Hence, the upcoming redo
 
N649DL
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:17 pm

spacecadet wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Ah got it. Thanks for this. Sad to see T7 go away though. B6 doesn't have widebodies though and T7 already has them configured from when UA and BA already there. Seems like kind of a waste, IMHO.


You're assuming nothing ever changes, which clearly, things do.

And T7 doesn't do B6 any good.


And I'm sure you assume that T7 is going to be rebuilt into a beautiful palace overnight....


I'm sure this project will take until 2027, when I'm 40.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:23 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
T4 is way more up to date than T8 at this point

T8 is 2005 chic

Hence, the upcoming redo


I agree.

T4 is more up to date. After the renovation T8 will hopefully have a better streamlined service and feel. T4 during rush hour is a nightmare, and with American cutting back on service from JFK, international arrivals and departures should be a smooth process.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:31 pm

Polot wrote:
tlecam wrote:
questions wrote:
T8 should be completed as originally designed.

AA/BA/etc swap with DL/etc T4.

Based on their type of operations, AA/BA/etc would be a better fit for T4.


I don’t understand your reasoning.

The reasoning essentially boils down to “T8 is nicer than T4 so DL should have it.”

Never mind that as things are right now T4 is larger, or that T4 is still waiting T4A expansion, or DL’s T2 ops, or T8 fully built out wouldn’t give DL any more space once you alter the design for modern day realities (a lot less 50 seaters and turboprops now than when designed in late 90s, early 2000), or that DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.


T4 can be a logistical nightmare. Delta holds the rights to most of the outbound bagroom piers. I remember years ago the bagroom situation was so bad that the international recheck bags were on the same belt as the Etihad outbound A380 flight. Hundreds of bags on one belt to sort through.

T8 was always better organized.
 
ScottB
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:06 pm

william wrote:
odd that AA/BA does not think the increase in pax does not require the head house being expanded to full capacity.


It's odd you think that BA moving over to T8 will result in a net increase in passengers versus the AA operation of a few years ago. AA has shrunk a lot at JFK and there's no sign of that flying coming back. And besides, terminal head houses don't need to be as large as they used to. Many passengers check in with an app or online and just drop their checked bags, if any, before going through security.

HunterATL wrote:
None of the plans or environmental studies mention the construction of busing gates, merely 4 hard stands. Busing gates would likely need to be discussed in any environmental study. Presently, there is no part of Terminal 8 which can handle busing, let alone this potential level of busing, so I doubt these stands will be anything more than a parking lot similar to Delta's Terminal 3 spaces.


Delta's Terminal 3 spaces are used as bus gates -- I missed a connection in May thanks to a cascade of errors which included not getting the stairs to the already-delayed airplane at the hardstand for 15 minutes. They might not have to undertake an environmental review if the net number of gates doesn't increase, and it's pretty clear that several RJ gates are going away. They're going to modestly expand the terminal as part of the renovation, and that might well include space for a few bus gates.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:17 pm

I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....
 
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:17 pm

FSDan wrote:
I sincerely hope the 4 remote stands will be used mostly for parking aircraft that sit on the ground for long periods of time (similar to DL's space where T3 used to be), and not as bus gates unless absolutely needed... Having a hardstand operation in a city with real winter weather doesn't seem like much of a premium proposition for the world's most lucrative route.

I suppose at the very least the JFK-LHR flights can be prioritized to jetbridge gates, with less competitive flights like JFK-EZE or JFK-BCN getting the bus operation if needed.

Another factor might be LA. They're currently operating out of T8, but with the future DL tie-up I wonder if they might end up somewhere else a few years down the road. That would free up some additional capacity at T8 in the evenings.


I agree. Looking at the press release and seeing "4 hardstands where customers are transported to/from the plane by bus" and "improvement in customer service" in the same sentence makes me laugh...or sigh.

Honestly, getting a bus gate after a long international flight (or before) makes me look at an airport and think they don't have their act together...
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JFKalumni
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:45 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....


Delta will fight to the very end to keep that area as a hardstand. If DL lose that hardstand area, the aircraft move team will be towing planes from the gates to Hanger 19 during the heart of rush hour traffic on taxiway P and taxiway Q heading for Rwy 13R
 
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:01 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....


Delta will fight to the very end to keep that area as a hardstand. If DL lose that hardstand area, the aircraft move team will be towing planes from the gates to Hanger 19 during the heart of rush hour traffic on taxiway P and taxiway Q heading for Rwy 13R



They already lost that area

A giant new terminal is going there. Construction starts this year

The hard stand area will be the old TWA Hangar/Current Infrared Deice area. It will be expanded and redone
 
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Polot
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:02 pm

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....

The only real difference between the two is the concourses in T8 are parallel to the head house instead of perpendicular to the head house. It’s not like T4 is a small terminal...

Remember T4 was not designed to be a connecting hub terminal, it was the “international” terminal where airlines relying on NYC O&D traffic were to fly from. UA, AA, DL, and TW had their own terminals. The design objective of T4 was to get them off the plane and to the curb relatively quickly and vice versa. Having to somehow securely shuttle arriving international passengers from a satellite concourse goes against that.
 
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:15 pm

Polot wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....

The only real difference between the two is the concourses in T8 are parallel to the head house instead of perpendicular to the head house. It’s not like T4 is a small terminal...

Remember T4 was not designed to be a connecting hub terminal, it was the “international” terminal where airlines relying on NYC O&D traffic were to fly from. UA, AA, DL, and TW had their own terminals. The design objective of T4 was to get them off the plane and to the curb relatively quickly and vice versa. Having to somehow securely shuttle arriving international passengers from a satellite concourse goes against that.



Good post

The mission of T4 changed when DL moved in
 
JFKalumni
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:15 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....


Delta will fight to the very end to keep that area as a hardstand. If DL lose that hardstand area, the aircraft move team will be towing planes from the gates to Hanger 19 during the heart of rush hour traffic on taxiway P and taxiway Q heading for Rwy 13R



They already lost that area

A giant new terminal is going there. Construction starts this year

The hard stand area will be the old TWA Hangar/Current Infrared Deice area. It will be expanded and redone


Thanks !!!

The radiant heat pad was almost always empty except for Alitalia and Swissport using it as a GSE storage area. But again the tow team will be sitting in traffic on taxiway P so DL has to plan accordingly.
 
jrkmsp
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:18 pm

There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:26 pm

For comparison, here's a google maps satellite view of the current layout: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6488493 ... a=!3m1!1e3

The footprint of old vs new seems to be near identical. It just seems that the northeastern end will be cleaned up with a few gates added and the parking areas further developed.

william wrote:
Its no BA Terminal 5 in London but it will do. I agree with the other posters, odd that AA/BA does not think the increase in pax does not require the head house being expanded to full capacity.

A lot of odd things happened. The original T8 plan was only built half way because the big spend was one reason why AA was fiscally circling the drain. AMR went off to bankruptcy court just before the laws changed to make them less favorable, just like most its competitors did. HP gained control of US then AA. This reincarnation of AA decided they could make more money by being the big fish in the smaller pond of PHL rather than fighting hammer and tongs at JFK so they focused their US east coast to international network at PHL while JFK became more O&D focused. UA closed shop at JFK in favor of EWR. Events move far faster than planners can plan and builders can build.

Even half built, T8 is the biggest terminal at JFK and twice the size of Madison Square Garden. It's plenty big for the combined AA+BA operation. BA liked having its own place, but presumably didn't make a good enough pitch to PANYNJ to be able to rebuild it, or decided it didn't want to make the big spend it would take to do so in the very expensive NYC market.

In some regard we should be glad we got the half built T8 that we got because it was sucking out a lot of funds from AA at the time it was pretty weak fiscally.

jfklganyc wrote:
What is lost in the discussion above is that British could move into the terminal tomorrow and have space for their entire operation...That is how much American has shrunk

Consider it lucky that they are expanding it and refreshing it at all

If you get the opportunity over the next few months, walk through the terminal during peak hours...eerily quiet

The whole terminal was built for an expansion that American never undertook. Then they reduced

The number of eagle gates was increased in 2005 at the completion of the terminal. That is because American shrunk the terminal so much during construction, That the port authority had a minimum number of gates that had to be met

That is why they added that whole north wing of regional gates. They were never needed

It looks as if the inner RJ gates Will be converted to widebody while the northern gates or outer gates will be used for the consolidated regional facility

The outer RJ gates were originally a single WB gate. AA would park 777s there

Yep, T8 is huge, and is currently under utilized.

Looking forward to its further development, along with the reuse of the T7 footprint.
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Polot
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
Even half built, T8 is the biggest terminal at JFK and twice the size of Madison Square Garden.

Small correction, but after the T4B expansion T4 is the largest terminal at JFK.
 
FSDan
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:40 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?
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Revelation
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:44 pm

Polot wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Even half built, T8 is the biggest terminal at JFK and twice the size of Madison Square Garden.

Small correction, but after the T4B expansion T4 is the largest terminal at JFK.

Thanks for the update. I guess the JFK wiki article needs to be corrected too.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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