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carljanderson
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:11 pm

FSDan wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


Page 117 of the first PDF on this page is the proposed schedule-> https://www.panynj.gov/port-authority/e ... ports.html "JFK Redevelopment Program Draft Environmental Assessment" This covers the new build out except for T8.
 
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Aisak
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:48 pm

HunterATL wrote:
Although final plans have not been released by the governor's office or the Port Authority, the original plan for the redevelopment was for Terminal 1 to handle the airlines with ownership in the Terminal 1 Consortium plus all other Star Alliance carriers. Terminal 4 would handle Delta with SkyTeam and Delta's partners split between 1 and 4. Terminal 5 and the new expansion would handle B6 and its partners, and Terminal 8 would handle all OneWorld carriers which do not participate in the Terminal 1 Consortium.

I honestly think this scenario can’t come to live soon enough, but T1-2-3 rebuilt will take some time.

It’s true that alliances, partnerships, joint business agreements and cross-ownerships come and go, so planners and builders can’t react in real time, but it’s incredible how tight JFK terminal space is that moves of airlines with just more than 1xdaily flight seem unbearable.
T1 is managed by TOGA (AF KE LH JL) and it is quite maxed out for airlines to be grouped by alliance (being formed by airlines from all 3).
But it’s mind blowing that KLM, part of AFKLM can’t collocate with AF to share staff, facilities and costs in the end.
Same with LH Group, where Swiss is in T4 and EW at T7 instead of being “grouped” along LH, OS and SN.
Also Norwegian operates out of T1 except 1 flight to MAD that goes at T7.
More “weird things” happen at T7 where Qatar operates its evening flight while the morning one goes at T8.
And Aer Lingus purchased some years ago by IAG operates out of T5 instead of sharing facilities with BA and IB.

It just seems way too complicated and as I say above, simplification and rationalization of spaces, can’t come soon enough.
 
atlflyer
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:15 pm

I’m assuming all the gate areas will be modernized with new lighting. BA’s renovated gate areas at T7 look better than AA’s at T8.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:39 pm

Wouldn’t it have been a better idea to just leave the original 1960 Terminal 8 in place and allow BA and Iberia to take over that entire terminal?

I remember Virgin was thinking about taking over that terminal back in 2008.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:45 pm

Aisak wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
Although final plans have not been released by the governor's office or the Port Authority, the original plan for the redevelopment was for Terminal 1 to handle the airlines with ownership in the Terminal 1 Consortium plus all other Star Alliance carriers. Terminal 4 would handle Delta with SkyTeam and Delta's partners split between 1 and 4. Terminal 5 and the new expansion would handle B6 and its partners, and Terminal 8 would handle all OneWorld carriers which do not participate in the Terminal 1 Consortium.

I honestly think this scenario can’t come to live soon enough, but T1-2-3 rebuilt will take some time.

It’s true that alliances, partnerships, joint business agreements and cross-ownerships come and go, so planners and builders can’t react in real time, but it’s incredible how tight JFK terminal space is that moves of airlines with just more than 1xdaily flight seem unbearable.
T1 is managed by TOGA (AF KE LH JL) and it is quite maxed out for airlines to be grouped by alliance (being formed by airlines from all 3).
But it’s mind blowing that KLM, part of AFKLM can’t collocate with AF to share staff, facilities and costs in the end.
Same with LH Group, where Swiss is in T4 and EW at T7 instead of being “grouped” along LH, OS and SN.
Also Norwegian operates out of T1 except 1 flight to MAD that goes at T7.
More “weird things” happen at T7 where Qatar operates its evening flight while the morning one goes at T8.
And Aer Lingus purchased some years ago by IAG operates out of T5 instead of sharing facilities with BA and IB.

It just seems way too complicated and as I say above, simplification and rationalization of spaces, can’t come soon enough.


The demolition of T1 is long overdue. Wide body aircraft are getting larger and the overall footprint doesn’t support the future operation. If I remember correctly, most wide body aircraft required a tow-in to the gate.

An A380 arriving into gate 5 was always dangerous because the nose cone of the aircraft was only a few feet from the terminal building.

Some aircraft required pushback onto Taxiway A for disconnect because of wing tip clearance in the alley way between T1 and T2.

A larger open design facility should help greatly.
 
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Polot
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:52 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Wouldn’t it have been a better idea to just leave the original 1960 Terminal 8 in place and allow BA and Iberia to take over that entire terminal?

I remember Virgin was thinking about taking over that terminal back in 2008.

Most of the original T8 was unusable because it went right up against the new T8. Also if staying in 60 year old buildings was ideal BA would just stay put where they are in T7.

There are a reason these buildings are/were razed and replaced. They are old and outdated facilities never designed for today’s needs (security, lounge expectations, etc) and traffic that are difficult to provide a great customer experience in and cost a ton of money in constant maintenance and general upkeep/running costs.
 
jfk777
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:17 pm

BA surely would have loved to keep its terminal, at T7 site or another one. But remember the who the chairman of IAG is, Willie "tough as nails" Walsh, who wanted more A380 but " I can't believe what Airbus wants for them". He didn't want to pay what the Port Authority wanted. This is the man who let BA keep 20 year old Club World, it is highly profitable but odd & old. Willie didn't want to pay.
 
ozark1
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:22 pm

Does anyone have an old photo with the incredible stained glass window and a bunch of 707s? Salivating
 
jrkmsp
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:28 pm

FSDan wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


In the EA, it’s says T4A needs to be completed for Delta to vacate T2 and the T1 expansion to proceed. And Ed Bastian said it was a done deal at investor day as well. So, I don’t know how it’s going to work, except that Delta won’t lose T2 until it opens the expanded T4A.
 
FSDan
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:13 am

jrkmsp wrote:
FSDan wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


In the EA, it’s says T4A needs to be completed for Delta to vacate T2 and the T1 expansion to proceed. And Ed Bastian said it was a done deal at investor day as well. So, I don’t know how it’s going to work, except that Delta won’t lose T2 until it opens the expanded T4A.


Makes sense. I'm glad it's finally coming to fruition! I assume DL will still keep the JITNEY shuttles going due to long walks between the two piers and from one end to the other of the B pier...
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Bradin
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:33 am

I'm going to beat this horse again, but this doesn't make any sense in the long run. Short run - yes quite a few benefits. But the long run, it's still putting bandaids on some serious problems.

Port Authority needs to really do a LGA - tear everything down and rebuild everything back up.
 
alfa164
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:41 am

william wrote:
Its no BA Terminal 5 in London but it will do. I agree with the other posters, odd that AA/BA does not think the increase in pax does not require the head house being expanded to full capacity.


At the rate AA is shrinking, BA/IAG may be the only tenants soon.
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blacksoviet
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:49 am

They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the head house once BA passengers are using the terminal.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:50 am

They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the headhouse once BA’s passengers are using the terminal.
 
questions
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:12 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Polot wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
I'm just really confused at why T4 is the way it is. The space between old T3 and T5 is just so huge there could have easily been another T8 style terminal. And the amount of wasted space on the apron means this could have been done with relatively minor disruptions. How long it would have taken however....

The only real difference between the two is the concourses in T8 are parallel to the head house instead of perpendicular to the head house. It’s not like T4 is a small terminal...

Remember T4 was not designed to be a connecting hub terminal, it was the “international” terminal where airlines relying on NYC O&D traffic were to fly from. UA, AA, DL, and TW had their own terminals. The design objective of T4 was to get them off the plane and to the curb relatively quickly and vice versa. Having to somehow securely shuttle arriving international passengers from a satellite concourse goes against that.



Good post

The mission of T4 changed when DL moved in


Hence an AA DL T8 T4 swap.
 
incitatus
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:30 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the head house once BA passengers are using the terminal.


Like I said before, for the cost of this expansion, one can build a really nice townhouse in Manhattan.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
incitatus
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:30 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the head house once BA passengers are using the terminal.


Like I said before, for the cost of this expansion, one can build a really nice townhouse in Manhattan.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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Revelation
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:55 pm

jfk777 wrote:
BA surely would have loved to keep its terminal, at T7 site or another one. But remember the who the chairman of IAG is, Willie "tough as nails" Walsh, who wanted more A380 but " I can't believe what Airbus wants for them". He didn't want to pay what the Port Authority wanted. This is the man who let BA keep 20 year old Club World, it is highly profitable but odd & old. Willie didn't want to pay.

No one wants to pay NYC prices.

blacksoviet wrote:
They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the head house once BA passengers are using the terminal.

They are only adding a dual-jetway gate, but BA presumably will be able to use other T8 gates as needed, and it is copiously clear that those are under utililized.

There is no business case to build out the head house to the original plan before BA moves in. Money makes the world go round. If in the future the BA+AA operation expands to need a full build out, the money will have to be found.
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blacksoviet
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
BA surely would have loved to keep its terminal, at T7 site or another one. But remember the who the chairman of IAG is, Willie "tough as nails" Walsh, who wanted more A380 but " I can't believe what Airbus wants for them". He didn't want to pay what the Port Authority wanted. This is the man who let BA keep 20 year old Club World, it is highly profitable but odd & old. Willie didn't want to pay.

No one wants to pay NYC prices.

blacksoviet wrote:
They are only adding a dual-jetway gate. The main concourse is not even being extended. What a joke. They are wasting all that valuable space so they can park three aircraft overnight.

It would have been a lot easier to complete the terminal before BA moves in. Imagine the headache it will be trying to expand the head house once BA passengers are using the terminal.

They are only adding a dual-jetway gate, but BA presumably will be able to use other T8 gates as needed, and it is copiously clear that those are under utililized.

There is no business case to build out the head house to the original plan before BA moves in. Money makes the world go round. If in the future the BA+AA operation expands to need a full build out, the money will have to be found.

How many gates at T8 are capable of handling a 747?
 
smi0006
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:45 pm

Does QF and QR use T8 still?
 
Sydscott
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:57 pm

smi0006 wrote:
Does QF and QR use T8 still?


Cathay, Finnair, Latam, Qantas, Qatar and Royal Jordanian all use T8. Not sure if Ethiopian does.

There will be extra room in T8 once Latam goes elsewhere to connect into DL.
 
Nola
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:43 pm

FSDan wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


I hope there is an underground passage from T4A to T4B. Otherwise, it would be a really long walk between concourses to make a connection....
 
n515cr
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:53 pm

Nola wrote:
FSDan wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
There’s also an ongoing environmental assessment to complete the expansion of T4 for Delta and friends. Pier A will expand substantially and produce something like 10-12 more gates, before T2 is torn down. Every airline wins in this scenario, as expected.


That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


I hope there is an underground passage from T4A to T4B. Otherwise, it would be a really long walk between concourses to make a connection....

I'd almost expect a 'tip-to-tip' Jitney or something to that effect.
 
smi0006
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:16 pm

Sydscott wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Does QF and QR use T8 still?


Cathay, Finnair, Latam, Qantas, Qatar and Royal Jordanian all use T8. Not sure if Ethiopian does.

There will be extra room in T8 once Latam goes elsewhere to connect into DL.


Oh okay - Didn’t know so many other carriers used T8. Interesting - does AA provide all GHA services, and lounges?
 
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Revelation
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:34 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
How many gates at T8 are capable of handling a 747?

It's a good question.

https://onemileatatime.com/new-jfk-terminal-8/ says five gates will be wide body capable and three hardstands will be as well.

I presume all can handle up to 747 size but they don't make it clear one way or the other.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Sydscott
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 am

smi0006 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Does QF and QR use T8 still?


Cathay, Finnair, Latam, Qantas, Qatar and Royal Jordanian all use T8. Not sure if Ethiopian does.

There will be extra room in T8 once Latam goes elsewhere to connect into DL.


Oh okay - Didn’t know so many other carriers used T8. Interesting - does AA provide all GHA services, and lounges?


As far as I know there are only AA Lounges in Terminal 8 and all of the Carriers in there use them. GHA I don't know.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:24 am

Aisak wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
Although final plans have not been released by the governor's office or the Port Authority, the original plan for the redevelopment was for Terminal 1 to handle the airlines with ownership in the Terminal 1 Consortium plus all other Star Alliance carriers. Terminal 4 would handle Delta with SkyTeam and Delta's partners split between 1 and 4. Terminal 5 and the new expansion would handle B6 and its partners, and Terminal 8 would handle all OneWorld carriers which do not participate in the Terminal 1 Consortium.

I honestly think this scenario can’t come to live soon enough, but T1-2-3 rebuilt will take some time.

It’s true that alliances, partnerships, joint business agreements and cross-ownerships come and go, so planners and builders can’t react in real time, but it’s incredible how tight JFK terminal space is that moves of airlines with just more than 1xdaily flight seem unbearable.
T1 is managed by TOGA (AF KE LH JL) and it is quite maxed out for airlines to be grouped by alliance (being formed by airlines from all 3).
But it’s mind blowing that KLM, part of AFKLM can’t collocate with AF to share staff, facilities and costs in the end.
Same with LH Group, where Swiss is in T4 and EW at T7 instead of being “grouped” along LH, OS and SN.
Also Norwegian operates out of T1 except 1 flight to MAD that goes at T7.
More “weird things” happen at T7 where Qatar operates its evening flight while the morning one goes at T8.
And Aer Lingus purchased some years ago by IAG operates out of T5 instead of sharing facilities with BA and IB.

It just seems way too complicated and as I say above, simplification and rationalization of spaces, can’t come soon enough.


Swiss (LX) relocated from T4 to T1 in 2007 and quickly moved back to T4. T1 was then, and is even more so now, a complete mess at peak times. It was never intended to handle the volume it does today.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:25 am

Sydscott wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

Cathay, Finnair, Latam, Qantas, Qatar and Royal Jordanian all use T8. Not sure if Ethiopian does.

There will be extra room in T8 once Latam goes elsewhere to connect into DL.


Oh okay - Didn’t know so many other carriers used T8. Interesting - does AA provide all GHA services, and lounges?


As far as I know there are only AA Lounges in Terminal 8 and all of the Carriers in there use them. GHA I don't know.


There are two lounges at T8. The Flagship Lounge, which also contains a Flagship First Dining section in the head house, and an Admirals Club in the satellite concourse.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:32 am

questions wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Polot wrote:
The only real difference between the two is the concourses in T8 are parallel to the head house instead of perpendicular to the head house. It’s not like T4 is a small terminal...

Remember T4 was not designed to be a connecting hub terminal, it was the “international” terminal where airlines relying on NYC O&D traffic were to fly from. UA, AA, DL, and TW had their own terminals. The design objective of T4 was to get them off the plane and to the curb relatively quickly and vice versa. Having to somehow securely shuttle arriving international passengers from a satellite concourse goes against that.



Good post

The mission of T4 changed when DL moved in


Hence an AA DL T8 T4 swap.


JFK for Delta is a lot less about connections and a lot more about O&D so swapping terminals purely so Delta can connect traffic better wouldn't be a reason for this to happen. T4 wasn't designed to be a connecting terminal, that's true, and it was a major step up from Delta, which had a third world terminal experience in T2/T3 and now has a better, but still far from ideal situation at JFK at the present time.
 
hz747300
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:51 am

Interesting but will anything happen with the delays in travel? Or, will planes still be pushed back towed to nowhere wait 35 minutes for engine startup to be number 17 in line for Takeoff?
Keep on truckin'...
 
JFKalumni
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:43 am

Revelation wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
How many gates at T8 are capable of handling a 747?

It's a good question.

https://onemileatatime.com/new-jfk-terminal-8/ says five gates will be wide body capable and three hardstands will be as well.

I presume all can handle up to 747 size but they don't make it clear one way or the other.


Five sounds about right. If AA/BA remove the hardstand and GSE storage area by the TB taxiway, there’s enough room to create two A380 gates.
 
golfingboy
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:39 am

Polot wrote:
DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.


True but maybe some will pop up when the PANYNJ gets tired of AA not using their slots. They got an exemption during the runway construction, but now that is done.

AA keeps squatting slots by scheduling a bunch of flights to cities like RIC/BWI/PIT only to pare down to one daily flight when they lock in the schedule not to mention the Transcontinental flights they have being cancelling on a rolling basis blaming the MAX delays.
 
HunterATL
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:47 am

golfingboy wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.


True but maybe some will pop up when the PANYNJ gets tired of AA not using their slots. They got an exemption during the runway construction, but now that is done.

AA keeps squatting slots by scheduling a bunch of flights to cities like RIC/BWI/PIT only to pare down to one daily flight when they lock in the schedule not to mention the Transcontinental flights they have being cancelling on a rolling basis blaming the MAX delays.[/quote]

The JFK slot order expires October 24, 2020. However, many expect the slot order to be continued until the work is further along at JFK.
 
N649DL
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:01 am

questions wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Polot wrote:
The only real difference between the two is the concourses in T8 are parallel to the head house instead of perpendicular to the head house. It’s not like T4 is a small terminal...

Remember T4 was not designed to be a connecting hub terminal, it was the “international” terminal where airlines relying on NYC O&D traffic were to fly from. UA, AA, DL, and TW had their own terminals. The design objective of T4 was to get them off the plane and to the curb relatively quickly and vice versa. Having to somehow securely shuttle arriving international passengers from a satellite concourse goes against that.



Good post

The mission of T4 changed when DL moved in


Hence an AA DL T8 T4 swap.


AA would've already done that by now. It would've occurred the appropriate time when AA merged with US in 2013-2014 in favor of condensing their East Coast Hub Operation to PHL in favor of dumping JFK real estate.

AA isn't going anywhere at JFK. They'll squat on gates and dump routes but I'm convinced they're not leaving in the same fashion like UA did (dumb.)
 
blacksoviet
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:16 am

Is Terminal 7 going to be demolished all at once or in stages?
 
questions
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:52 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Is Terminal 7 going to be demolished all at once or in stages?


From what I’ve read, cannons on the pirate’s ship at Treasure Island, Las Vegas, are going to “shoot” cannonballs eastward and T7 will be imploded. It will be streamed live.

Seriously, the current plan is to vacate and demolish just as they did for T3.
 
SEAflyer97
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 9:10 am

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:53 am

Bradin wrote:
I'm going to beat this horse again, but this doesn't make any sense in the long run. Short run - yes quite a few benefits. But the long run, it's still putting bandaids on some serious problems.

Port Authority needs to really do a LGA - tear everything down and rebuild everything back up.

They are doing it--just not T8. T1, T3 and T7 will be completely demolished
 
SEAflyer97
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:57 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Oh okay - Didn’t know so many other carriers used T8. Interesting - does AA provide all GHA services, and lounges?


As far as I know there are only AA Lounges in Terminal 8 and all of the Carriers in there use them. GHA I don't know.


There are two lounges at T8. The Flagship Lounge, which also contains a Flagship First Dining section in the head house, and an Admirals Club in the satellite concourse.

That's not enough for BA. There is some mention about a new lounge but i don't know where can they put it.
 
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Polot
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:55 am

golfingboy wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.


True but maybe some will pop up when the PANYNJ gets tired of AA not using their slots. They got an exemption during the runway construction, but now that is done.

AA keeps squatting slots by scheduling a bunch of flights to cities like RIC/BWI/PIT only to pare down to one daily flight when they lock in the schedule not to mention the Transcontinental flights they have being cancelling on a rolling basis blaming the MAX delays.

DL is probably last on the list of getting any meaningful amount of additional slots. That is the downside of being the large incumbent.

LCCs and airlines like UA (who has expressed regret over leaving JFK) would get priority.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1908
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:19 pm

SEAflyer97 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

As far as I know there are only AA Lounges in Terminal 8 and all of the Carriers in there use them. GHA I don't know.


There are two lounges at T8. The Flagship Lounge, which also contains a Flagship First Dining section in the head house, and an Admirals Club in the satellite concourse.

That's not enough for BA. There is some mention about a new lounge but i don't know where can they put it.


BA will built its own lounge(s) at T8 and the head house is supposedly getting an extension to house it. Alternatively, a oneworld lounge could be opened in the expanded and renovated T8 given all the OW carriers there by the time the project is complete, with IB and BA joining QF, CX, Finnair, and RJ. And agree, in spite of AA's average of around 73-75 departures a day at the moment, the existing lounge set up and capacity will not be enough once BA moves in. The Flagship Lounge gets pretty crowded in the afternoons from 3pm to around 7:30pm-8:00pm when the bulk of AA's international long hauls from JFK depart.
 
Bradin
Posts: 348
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:25 pm

SEAflyer97 wrote:
Bradin wrote:
I'm going to beat this horse again, but this doesn't make any sense in the long run. Short run - yes quite a few benefits. But the long run, it's still putting bandaids on some serious problems.

Port Authority needs to really do a LGA - tear everything down and rebuild everything back up.

They are doing it--just not T8. T1, T3 and T7 will be completely demolished


That doesn't count as "everything". T3 is already demolished and stands as an empty area. I think T2 is coming down too as part of the T1 demolition as part of a different phase.

T4, T5 and T8 also needs to come down and be redone.
 
luckyone
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Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:56 pm

n515cr wrote:
Nola wrote:
FSDan wrote:

That's good to hear, but how's the timing going to work? If progress is already set to start on the old T3 site, won't it cause problems if T2 is still in place several years from now while DL builds out T4A (which will presumably take at least 2-3 years to finish)?


I hope there is an underground passage from T4A to T4B. Otherwise, it would be a really long walk between concourses to make a connection....

I'd almost expect a 'tip-to-tip' Jitney or something to that effect.

How much worse could it be than a potential connection from one end of DEN Concourse B to the other?
 
HunterATL
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:31 pm

Polot wrote:
golfingboy wrote:
Polot wrote:
DL’s future growth is limited anyways by slots.


True but maybe some will pop up when the PANYNJ gets tired of AA not using their slots. They got an exemption during the runway construction, but now that is done.

AA keeps squatting slots by scheduling a bunch of flights to cities like RIC/BWI/PIT only to pare down to one daily flight when they lock in the schedule not to mention the Transcontinental flights they have being cancelling on a rolling basis blaming the MAX delays.

DL is probably last on the list of getting any meaningful amount of additional slots. That is the downside of being the large incumbent.

LCCs and airlines like UA (who has expressed regret over leaving JFK) would get priority.


There has been no indication for DOT that new slots will come available or that the slot order will be extended when it expires in October. Many expect the slot order to be continued in some form, but it's not guaranteed.

UA, however, is still the holder of record of a very large slot portfolio at JFK. It's very difficult to argue with a straight face that you should receive new slots when you are leasing your existing portfolio to another carrier. B6 and any other carrier wanting more JFK slots would have a field day with that.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5916
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:05 pm

update:

Construction has started at T8!

This is ironic, because of all the doom and gloom at AA at JFK and how they were left out of the Master Plan, they got the shovel in the ground before any other JFK project kicked off!

They are working adjacent the headhouse on the lower level expansion
 
tphuang
Posts: 5075
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:08 pm

Maybe ba can move in there even sooner if they get done early.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5916
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:09 pm

HunterATL wrote:
Polot wrote:
golfingboy wrote:

True but maybe some will pop up when the PANYNJ gets tired of AA not using their slots. They got an exemption during the runway construction, but now that is done.

AA keeps squatting slots by scheduling a bunch of flights to cities like RIC/BWI/PIT only to pare down to one daily flight when they lock in the schedule not to mention the Transcontinental flights they have being cancelling on a rolling basis blaming the MAX delays.

DL is probably last on the list of getting any meaningful amount of additional slots. That is the downside of being the large incumbent.

LCCs and airlines like UA (who has expressed regret over leaving JFK) would get priority.


There has been no indication for DOT that new slots will come available or that the slot order will be extended when it expires in October. Many expect the slot order to be continued in some form, but it's not guaranteed.

UA, however, is still the holder of record of a very large slot portfolio at JFK. It's very difficult to argue with a straight face that you should receive new slots when you are leasing your existing portfolio to another carrier. B6 and any other carrier wanting more JFK slots would have a field day with that.[/quot


Originally the slot restrictions were supposed to be loosened upon completion of all 4 runways being rebuilt to mitigate delays

However, the EWR situation post slots has been a mess

JFK is obviously bigger than EWR, so we will see what the DOT does
 
BearatoneSEA
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:35 pm

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:02 pm

May I ask what happens to AS? I despise Alaska's setup at Terminal 7, with the exception of their nice lounge.
 
ScottB
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: WSJ reports JFK Terminal 8 to get $344M Renovation to host AA and BA

Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:44 pm

Aisak wrote:
it’s mind blowing that KLM, part of AFKLM can’t collocate with AF to share staff, facilities and costs in the end.


Not really. KLM is colocated with Delta, and both carriers are part of the same transatlantic joint venture. It's almost weirder that AF hasn't relocated to share facilities with KL and DL, but obviously their ownership stake in T1/TOGA makes it worthwhile to stay there. And, in any event, because we're talking about JFK, the advantages of sharing facilities and staff are limited because it tends to be one of the largest, if not the largest, outstations for every carrier. Shared lounges between AF/KL or the LH Group carriers would be crowded and there's value in maintaining brand presence for customers in NYC. The transatlantic carriers all need gates & staff at the same peak times so they can't even share those.

The only real advantage is being able to offer connections with a domestic partner airline to supplement traffic (particularly during low season) -- and BA gets that by moving in with AA (at least, for as long as AA offers useful connecting markets).
 
gmcc
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:16 pm

BearatoneSEA wrote:
May I ask what happens to AS? I despise Alaska's setup at Terminal 7, with the exception of their nice lounge.

They will be bought by Jet Blue by that point. :duck: :duck:
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5640
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: JFK Terminal 8 Renovation Thread (2020)

Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:37 pm

gmcc wrote:

They will be bought by Jet Blue by that point. :duck: :duck:


That "joke" is as stale as month old bread. Give it a rest.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio

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