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seahawk
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:41 am

sevenair wrote:
If this plane was indeed hit by a missile, at 8000 feet, it is the same altitude that DHL were hit at when taking off from Baghdad.


We can agree that the plane was within the optimum engagement envelope for man portable SAMs.
 
AeroplaneFreak
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:44 am

Does anyone have a list of incidents where fire led to a commercial aircraft falling out of the sky within minutes?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:44 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Can we please stop talking about Trump and the Ayatollah? We can’t possibly know what brought this plane down yet and we need to let an investigation run it’s course.

This is an aviation site after all.



This is an aviation site and we've seen a lot of plane crashes on video. If that fireball video is real, engine fires usually aren't radiating light THAT brightly. If the video is real, something unusual happened.
Last edited by Jouhou on Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
情報
 
dc863
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:46 am

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
Does anyone have a list of incidents where fire led to a commercial aircraft falling out of the sky within minutes?


Valujet 592, Swissair 330
 
sevenair
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:46 am

seahawk wrote:
sevenair wrote:
If this plane was indeed hit by a missile, at 8000 feet, it is the same altitude that DHL were hit at when taking off from Baghdad.


We can agree that the plane was within the optimum engagement envelope for man portable SAMs.


MANPADS are my absolute biggest fear for me at work. We can study all we want, get can get examined to death in the sim, we can have the safest plane going, but it's all utterly pointless if a missile simply takes you down. There's very little you can do. There must be thousands of them in existence, and where I live we have very porous borders and no border checks within the continent. A MANPAD will take a plane down taking off from Paris, Brussels or London soon enough. It makes me sick to think about it.
 
giblets
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:46 am

One of the issues that were raised from the Max debacle was that fuel pipes running down the fuselage were unprotected from an uncontained engine failure (IIRC) in certain areas, was present in older models too.
I don’t believe it’s happened before....., but never say never, would be complete nightmare scenario for BA.


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hpff
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:49 am

AeroplaneFreak wrote:
Does anyone have a list of incidents where fire led to a commercial aircraft falling out of the sky within minutes?


There are quite a few. The one that comes to mind is the LOT crash.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:49 am

dc863 wrote:
AeroplaneFreak wrote:
Does anyone have a list of incidents where fire led to a commercial aircraft falling out of the sky within minutes?


Valujet 592, Swissair 330


Uh, both of those were able to do troubleshooting and talk to ATC before eventually crashing. And neither were caused by an engine issue. ValuJet due to hazardous materials and Swissair die to faulty IFE systems.
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:49 am

Horrible tragedy the morning after Christmas. RIP to our fellow Ukrainian brothers and sisters (and potentially other nationalities as well), no one should go through this.

Don't want to be departing from KBP this morning, hope the resources are there to handle this and to provide the families with needed support at a much needed time.
 
xwb777
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:50 am

Ukraine International Airlines suspends all flights to Tehran.
 
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zeke
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:51 am

nine4nine wrote:
The hole on the engine is an inward puncture, not a outward jagged serration you’d expect to see with an uncontained engine failure.


I disagree with that observation, the nature of the damage reminds me of a QF 744 uncontained turbine failure. We know from the QF32 report that an uncintained failure can puncture a wing.

“ initiated by the fatigue fracture of a single stage-2 low pressure (LP) turbine blade. The ensuing rotor imbalance caused the LP turbine bearing to fail, which ultimately resulted in the uncontained release of debris.”

Image

From https://news.aviation-safety.net/2012/0 ... e-failure/
Last edited by zeke on Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 295
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:51 am

dc863 wrote:
AeroplaneFreak wrote:
Does anyone have a list of incidents where fire led to a commercial aircraft falling out of the sky within minutes?


Valujet 592, Swissair 330


Thanks,

Swissair 330 was a terrorist bombing so we'll put that to one side for now, Valujet 592 disappeared from radar nine minutes after take-off so a few minutes more than what happened today.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:55 am

BanjoYoshi wrote:
Did this flight originated in iran or was it a through flight from the u.s. just asking cuz my cousin was flying to Ukraine this week. I dont think he would connect there but just checking

As it was a 737-800 I seriously seriously seriously doubt that aircraft has ever flown a flight to or from the US apart from it's delivery flight
 
NonTechAvLover
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:57 am

speedbird52 wrote:
I met two lovely otherwise intelligent American women on a train in Morocco who seemed to think that Iran was run by the Taliban


Not saying this necessarily happened, but one wonders whether the reality of the first attribute may have caused the imagination of the second.
 
osiris30
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:58 am

Iranian authorities are reporting no communication from pilots on distress calls.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Arion640
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:59 am

Adipocere wrote:
The Concorde and AA191 ended in fiery crashes soon after takeoff. So both theoretically and realistically an explanation other than bombs or missiles is possible.


Yes. Except on those evenings Iran wasn’t trying to attack US bases.
 
osiris30
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:00 am

Folks: can someone help me out and tell me which part of the aircraft we are look at here specifically and is it top-side or bottom-side up.

I am having issues orienting myself to the part and where exactly it was on the frame.

Image
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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zeke
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:02 am

V220 wrote:
Also, on one picture there is no wing but hor. stabiliser. No way it got such damage by unconstrained engine failure.


The photo by eagles94 above I believe shows the inner right (starboard) flap upside down . Notice in the bottom of the photo you can see the glove where the leading edge of the trailing edge flap retracts into.
Last edited by zeke on Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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B727skyguy
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:03 am

It seems strange that UIA has nothing about the accident on their website. Usually an airline will set up a special telephone number for next of kin and publish ongoing updates on the situation. It's business as usual on the UIA website.

https://www.flyuia.com/us/en/home
 
sevenair
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:04 am

osiris30 wrote:
Iranian authorities are reporting no communication from pilots on distress calls.


Supporting the notion of this being sudden and utterly catastrophic. PanAm103, MH17, TWA800 etc all went down and due to the severity of the incident, no communication was made understandably. We must also remember that this happened relatively low down, so the time you have to talk is strictly limited.
 
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zeke
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:04 am

osiris30 wrote:
Folks: can someone help me out and tell me which part of the aircraft we are look at here specifically and is it top-side or bottom-side up.

I am having issues orienting myself to the part and where exactly it was on the frame.

Image


The underside of the starboard inner flap.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:06 am

This morning, KBP is very busy with departures, and very somber. Everyone is courteous and professional, but smiles are few, if any. Suddenly, Christmas spirit (Julian calendar Christmas was yesterday) is not so festive anymore...
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sevenair
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:06 am

B727skyguy wrote:
It seems strange that UIA has nothing about the accident on their website. Usually an airline will set up a special telephone number for next of kin and publish ongoing updates on the situation. It's business as usual on the UIA website.

https://www.flyuia.com/us/en/home


The whole thing is a bit strange. UIA are silent on the matter but they've cancelled tonight's departure. UK news are concentrating on the military action with a brief mention of the plane. Even Al Jazeera aren't that forthcoming either. Its like 'oh and by the way a plane crashed. Moving on....'.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:06 am

sevenair wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
Iranian authorities are reporting no communication from pilots on distress calls.


Supporting the notion of this being sudden and utterly catastrophic. PanAm103, MH17, TWA800 etc all went down and due to the severity of the incident, no communication was made understandably. We must also remember that this happened relatively low down, so the time you have to talk is strictly limited.


Agreed. I only mention it because we have authorities also saying it was an engine failure. Without coms from the pilots, how anyone can say what it was (let alone authorities) at this point is beyond foolish.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
osiris30
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:08 am

zeke wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
Folks: can someone help me out and tell me which part of the aircraft we are look at here specifically and is it top-side or bottom-side up.

I am having issues orienting myself to the part and where exactly it was on the frame.

Image


The underside of the starboard inner flap.


Two follow-up questions then Zeke:

1) Your level of confidence with that assessment (no, this isn't a setup, it's a real question, I can't tell a damned thing from that picture with nothing as a size reference)
2) In the engine picture, any clues as to which engine that is? Port or starboard?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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zeke
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:10 am

osiris30 wrote:
I am trying to think if an engine might fail in anyway to take out the ability of ADS-B to transmit on a 737.


Simply could be the transponder in use was #2, most aircraft power #2 when everything is working normally and may only power #1 in reduced states.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:11 am

Can Ukraine request the black box from the Iranians in order to evaluate the situation themselves? Has anyone published the list of nationalities of the passenger onboard? I guess it's mostly Iranians living in Europe.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:11 am

“According to preliminary information, the plane crashed due to an engine malfunction. The version of the terrorist attack or rocket attack is currently excluded,”. The statement on the website of the Ukrainian Embassy in Tehran reads. (CNN)
Last edited by PANAMsterdam on Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
osiris30
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:12 am

zeke wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
I am trying to think if an engine might fail in anyway to take out the ability of ADS-B to transmit on a 737.


Simply could be the transponder in use was #2, most aircraft power #2 when everything is working normally and may only power #1 in reduced states.


Would ADS-B not operate on battery in that event?
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
osiris30
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:13 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
“According to preliminary information, the plane crashed due to an engine malfunction. The version of the terrorist attack or rocket attack is currently excluded,”. The statement on the website of the Ukrainian Embassy in Tehran reads. (CNN)


Iranian television said the crash was due to technical problems.

The Iranian media quoted a civil aviation body official as saying the plane didn't declare an emergency.

Given the last of the two sentences there, not sure how the embassy is in any position to make that claim.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Strato2
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:18 am

If a three year old 738 crashed due to engine malfunction Boeing/CFM is gonna be in a world of hurt.
 
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zeke
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:20 am

osiris30 wrote:

1) Your level of confidence with that assessment (no, this isn't a setup, it's a real question, I can't tell a damned thing from that picture with nothing as a size reference)
2) In the engine picture, any clues as to which engine that is? Port or starboard?


I am reasonably confident we are looking at the starboard engine and flap with damage.

I cannot say with 100% certainty if the engine and flap damage are a result of an uncontained failure or an external factor.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Interested
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:21 am

Strato2 wrote:
If a three year old 738 crashed due to engine malfunction Boeing/CFM is gonna be in a world of hurt.


I've just said in the Boeing thread fingers crossed nothing in this crash can lead to normal 737s to be grounded at same time as Max
 
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conaly
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:21 am

Blerg wrote:
Has anyone published the list of nationalities of the passenger onboard? I guess it's mostly Iranians living in Europe.


Not sure how reliable the information is, but Aviation Newsroom twittered following list:

• Ukrainian citizens- 11
• Iranian citizens - 71
• Canadian citizens -73
• German citizens - 4
• British citizens - 3
• Swedish citizens - 8
• Afghanistan citizens - 6


https://twitter.com/Aviation_NewsTW/sta ... 3528458242

May their souls rest in peace.
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Interested
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:22 am

73 Canadians onboard?

That means media coverage will suddenly increase in the western world
Last edited by Interested on Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Tavocruz
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:23 am

indcwby wrote:

Why is this a Boeing issue?




How is it not?
Regardless of the outcome, regardless of blame; this is a Boeing aircraft and therefore they would normally be involved in the investigation.
In this case the FDR might not head to the USA for political reasons but rest assured that Boeing has interest in this disaster.
Never mind the paperwork and communications they would have with their client (plane owner), outstanding maintenance contracts etc etc.
You seem to think that "an issue" automatically assigns blame....

I know there are some Richard Quest haters on this site, or CNN haters in general.
But I am watching CNN now and nothing Richard has said struck me as incorrect so far. Just without the hyperbole like some in this thread, and thus keeping all causes open.
Yes, he has nothing much to add for aviation geeks; but bear in mind that 99% of the viewers are just the average (flying?) public and he does a decent job in explaining some of the issues with a little more depth than the usual anchors.
 
artflyer
Posts: 140
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:23 am

Nationalities:

Iranians - 71
Canadians - 73
Germans - 4
Swedish - 8
British - 3
Afghans - 6
Ukrainians

https://www.obozrevatel.com/crime/av...-pogibshih.htm

Maybe Canada could/should take some lead in investigating this?
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:23 am

Iranians suffering massive loss there.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:24 am

Interested wrote:
73 Canadians onboard?


Yeah that would be very strange if true.
 
AeroplaneFreak
Posts: 295
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:24 am

Interested wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
If a three year old 738 crashed due to engine malfunction Boeing/CFM is gonna be in a world of hurt.


I've just said in the Boeing thread fingers crossed nothing in this crash can lead to normal 737s to be grounded at same time as Max


There is a 99.9% chance that 1. this has nothing to do with Boeing and 2. won't affect the worldwide fleet.
 
Interested
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:26 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Iranians suffering massive loss there.


But Canada losing more

How do 73 Canadians end up flying from Iran to Ukraine together?
 
Blerg
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:27 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
73 Canadians onboard?


Yeah that would be very strange if true.


Why would it be strange? PS has a flight to Toronto that is scheduled to depart at 11.55 (local time). Flight is operated by a B777.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:27 am

Interested wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Iranians suffering massive loss there.


But Canada losing more

How do 73 Canadians end up flying from Iran to Ukraine together?


Package tour?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Blerg
Posts: 3915
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:27 am

Interested wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Iranians suffering massive loss there.


But Canada losing more

How do 73 Canadians end up flying from Iran to Ukraine together?


By eventually connecting onto PS' Toronto flight.
 
Interested
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:28 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Interested wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Iranians suffering massive loss there.


But Canada losing more

How do 73 Canadians end up flying from Iran to Ukraine together?


Package tour?


People go on holiday in those numbers to Iran?
Last edited by Interested on Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2681
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:28 am

zeke wrote:
osiris30 wrote:

1) Your level of confidence with that assessment (no, this isn't a setup, it's a real question, I can't tell a damned thing from that picture with nothing as a size reference)
2) In the engine picture, any clues as to which engine that is? Port or starboard?


I am reasonably confident we are looking at the starboard engine and flap with damage.

I cannot say with 100% certainty if the engine and flap damage are a result of an uncontained failure or an external factor.


Thanks. I am trying to figure out which side that engine is from (for obvious reasons).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:28 am

Interesting that the Ukrainian embassy would pronounce itself on the cause so early, without any evidence.

I'm thinking they mostly want to appease the situation and prevent emotional responses without facts, which is not the stupidest thing to do at the moment...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:29 am

Interested wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Interested wrote:

But Canada losing more

How do 73 Canadians end up flying from Iran to Ukraine together?


Package tour?


To Iran?


Americans are about the only people who don’t go there.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
StdTank80002
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:42 am

Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:29 am

BBC are reporting 140 Iranians on board, so unless dual nationalities have caused confusion in the numbers it would appear there were not 73 Canadians.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 308
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:29 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Interested wrote:
73 Canadians onboard?


Yeah that would be very strange if true.


Unless the quoted 73 were indeed Canadians in Tehran and being “Americans” (yes, but not US) decided/were told by their companies to leave. If that is the case then that really is very sad collateral damage to the current situation (regardless of what actually brought the plane down). No more sad than the deaths of the rest of the people on board but ironic if that is indeed the case.
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