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bikerthai
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:32 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in “a low-income housing estate on the city’s outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane…?”


Typical obfuscation from someone with an agenda or someone who is not in tune with internet handle. I can set up an account called "Smart Ass Asian" but that doesn't make me smart, or an ass. :rotfl:

And yes, I do bike. But not as much lately.

bt

PS. In some part of the world, having rich and poor folks living next to each other is not un-common. This comes about when you have poor folks that live on their family land for ages. But then one family member becomes rich for some reason and instead of moving away, they decide to build on the existing land they have.
Last edited by bikerthai on Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:35 pm

Yes, we do need more clarity about the transponder, I'm hoping there will be a report from today's meeting with more info.

I agree the article is a mixture of believable and no so believable facts and conjecture, which makes it hard to sort fact from fiction. Still, I'm glad somebody is asking the questions, as they do need answering.

Like many, I am suspicious about 'why this particular plane'. Yes, it could just have been a 6am shift change, with a newbie operator. But also, why jammed comms at that particular time? Planes flew before and after the crash. Seems like the 'comms jamming' was quite specific in its timing, hence I wish to know more about it.

It may be nothing but I think they are going to have to release specifics about what exactly the operator saw on his screen, and what the comms jamming was (unless he's lying and just panicked and shot, without even trying to get authorisation, which is also possible).
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:38 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down but There May be More to the Story

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targe ... an/5700765
from an ex-CIA specialist who is thinking along the same lines as I have been. Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?

I recommend you click the link as there's much more on there than I can cut and paste but here are some excerpts:

"there just might be considerably more to the story involving cyberwarfare carried out by the U.S. and possibly Israeli governments.

What seems to have been a case of bad judgements and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable “jamming” and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

it is plausible to assume that something or someone deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government.

[videos] appeared on January 9th, in an Instagram account called ‘Rich Kids of Tehran‘. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in “a low-income housing estate on the city’s outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane…?”


You might want to read about ADS-B,SSR and PSR. FR24 has nothing to do with SSR transponder.

The video is probably is a CCTV playback screen using a phone, not pointing at sky. The shaking makes one think someone was recording.
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bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:05 pm

"The video is probably is a CCTV playback screen using a phone, not pointing at sky. The shaking makes one think someone was recording." Yes - good point.

What's your take on things then, knowing what you do about ADS-B,SSR and PSR? Interested to know. Were they/could they be hacked?
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:45 pm

par13del wrote:
bristolflyer1 wrote:
Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down but There May be More to the Story

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targe ... an/5700765
from an ex-CIA specialist who is thinking along the same lines as I have been. Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?

The article starts out with what I think is a confirmation then moves on to speculation.
Has the below been confirmed by anyone that we can accept as gospel?

"The claim that Major General Qassem Soleimani was a “terrorist” on a mission to carry out an “imminent” attack that would kill hundreds of Americans turned out to be a lie,

I don’t know about any specific planned attack, but Soleimani was the lead behind the Iraq insurgency which caused over 2000 American and hundreds of allied deaths (not to mention thousands of Iraqi deaths).
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smokeybandit
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:47 pm

The transponder was turned off several minutes before the launch? Wouldn't the plane have been on the ground several minutes prior to the missile launch?
 
flightless
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:14 pm

The "hacked air defense system" sounds like a politically motivated misdirection.

The Assembly of Experts and the Supreme Leader have hit an uncomfortable bit of resistance from the populace, and it's important to get the attention and "Death to ______!" rhetoric pointed back at somebody outside the borders. The fact that the Iranian nuclear program has its history with Stuxnet provides a shallow plausibility for malicious hackers to have done it again.

However, when taken to its logical consequences - telling everyone their air-defense systems are no longer reliable, that Russian military hardware is susceptible to being pwned by Iran's enemies, and that Iran's own best and brightest troops can be tricked into killing anybody, even their own people, by a bit of software trickery - I don't think it's going to bear much fruit.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:29 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
What's your take on things then, knowing what you do about ADS-B,SSR and PSR? Interested to know. Were they/could they be hacked?


If the SSR Transponder was inop or failed after takeoff, PSR will pickup an unidentified target over the horizon. IMHO, too much unnecessary talk about ADS-B Out.

This seems to be a botched installation from get go. In the flight Path,hills in between and no direct communication with ATC.

Tor operators should have been made of a major airport behind the hills and procedures to identify and deal with targets. They should be monitoring IKA traffic.

Just a freak accident with 170+ lost lives unnecessarily.
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CO764
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:09 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down but There May be More to the Story

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targe ... an/5700765
from an ex-CIA specialist who is thinking along the same lines as I have been. Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?



Interesting article, but it's important to bear in mind that this "ex-CIA specialist" Philip Giraldi is essentially a holocaust denier whose past statements include "The so-called holocaust was an historical event that took place in Europe seventy-five years ago. It has an established but very debatable narrative that pretty much has been contrived over the past fifty years for political reasons." He has also published articles such as America's Jews Are Driving America's Wars.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:12 pm

CO764 wrote:
Interesting article, but it's important to bear in mind that this "ex-CIA specialist" Philip Giraldi is essentially a holocaust denier whose past statements include "The so-called holocaust was an historical event that took place in Europe seventy-five years ago. It has an established but very debatable narrative that pretty much has been contrived over the past fifty years for political reasons." He has also published articles such as America's Jews Are Driving America's Wars.


So he's a nutter?
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zeke
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:19 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

If the SSR Transponder was inop or failed after takeoff, PSR will pickup an unidentified target over the horizon. IMHO, too much unnecessary talk about ADS-B Out.


I doubt the launcher vehicle had the ability to receive and display ADS-B, I don’t even know if they would receive mode S, they are probably only seeing mode A and if your lucky mode C.
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par13del
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:56 pm

scbriml wrote:
CO764 wrote:
Interesting article, but it's important to bear in mind that this "ex-CIA specialist" Philip Giraldi is essentially a holocaust denier whose past statements include "The so-called holocaust was an historical event that took place in Europe seventy-five years ago. It has an established but very debatable narrative that pretty much has been contrived over the past fifty years for political reasons." He has also published articles such as America's Jews Are Driving America's Wars.


So he's a nutter?

Naw, probably someone who knows just enough and is known by just enough people to be dangerous.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:17 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down but There May be More to the Story

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targe ... an/5700765
from an ex-CIA specialist who is thinking along the same lines as I have been. Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?

I recommend you click the link as there's much more on there than I can cut and paste but here are some excerpts:

"there just might be considerably more to the story involving cyberwarfare carried out by the U.S. and possibly Israeli governments.

What seems to have been a case of bad judgements and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable “jamming” and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

it is plausible to assume that something or someone deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government.

[videos] appeared on January 9th, in an Instagram account called ‘Rich Kids of Tehran‘. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in “a low-income housing estate on the city’s outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane…?”



Regardless of the article content, the fact that it is published on globalresearch.ca makes the whole thing immediately suspect. Unless it was previously published somewhere reputable.
Globalresearch.ca is basically a cesspool of fake news and conspiracy theories for years now, and paying attention to their vomit of "publications" is in a very poor taste.
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flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:28 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?

the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched.


The link/source the article provided for the "transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched" was an outdated NYT article from Jan 9: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/vide ... ssile.html

At that time, there was only the first video of the missile intercept, and there was a 20-30s gap between the missile intercept and the last ADS-B signal.

However, later the new CCTV video came out Jan 14, which proved that the first video was of the second missile, and the first missile exactly coincided with when the ADS-B went out. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/worl ... video.html

The author of the globalresearch.ca has not kept up to date on the latest news about this event.
 
N212R
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:55 pm

flybucky wrote:
However, later the new CCTV video came out Jan 14, which proved that the first video was of the second missile, and the first missile exactly coincided with when the ADS-B went out. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/14/worl ... video.html


Gotta love the NY Times...it can get it's hands on a leaked video from Iran but the Epstein tapes have mysteriously disappeared. :roll:
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:19 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Anyone geolocate the latest CCTV video?

Here's one person's guess: https://twitter.com/mehdiy_fa/status/12 ... 5654694912
Lots of other guesses in that twitter thread.
 
2175301
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:41 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Who Targeted Ukraine Airlines Flight 752? Iran Shot It Down but There May be More to the Story

https://www.globalresearch.ca/who-targe ... an/5700765
from an ex-CIA specialist who is thinking along the same lines as I have been. Can we confirm that one thing is wrong about the article though, that the transponder was working up until the first hit? Do we know this because of the flightradar data?

I recommend you click the link as there's much more on there than I can cut and paste but here are some excerpts:

"there just might be considerably more to the story involving cyberwarfare carried out by the U.S. and possibly Israeli governments.

What seems to have been a case of bad judgements and human error does, however, include some elements that have yet to be explained. The Iranian missile operator reportedly experienced considerable “jamming” and the planes transponder switched off and stopped transmitting several minutes before the missiles were launched. There were also problems with the communication network of the air defense command, which may have been related.

it is plausible to assume that something or someone deliberately interfered with both the Iranian air defenses and with the transponder on the airplane, possibly as part of an attempt to create an aviation accident that would be attributed to the Iranian government.

[videos] appeared on January 9th, in an Instagram account called ‘Rich Kids of Tehran‘. Quinn asks how the Rich Kids happened to be in “a low-income housing estate on the city’s outskirts [near the airport] at 6 a.m. on the morning of January 8th with cameras pointed at the right part of the sky in time to capture a missile hitting a Ukrainian passenger plane…?”


You do understand that the two most common reason for communications to be disrupted or for signals not to be processed correctly is incorrect operation of the system by the operators and malfunction of the system. Hacking of a system is very rare. It also makes little sense in this case. Why would the US (or anyone) be hacking the air defenses around Tehran? The US Military is over 400 miles (643 km) away (Erbil was the closes military base that was attacked by missiles from Iran: Erbil to Tehran is about 416 miles).

While a cyber attack is theoretically possible. Far more likely is just equipment failure, or misoperation. The Tor (SA-15) is a mobile point defense missile system that does not have to have "ultimate" reliability.

Have a great day,
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:57 pm

So it was malfunctioning engine, insults from the west about potential rocket, then engine and one rocket to actually two rocket hits to... we were hacked.
Throw as much as you can and maybe something will stick.
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:04 pm

NY Times Visual Investigations updated their video with the new info from the CCTV showing both missiles. It is an incredible piece of work, stitching together every video to paint the entire picture. Also showing the location of every video.

(It's the same URL as before, but the graphics and commentary has been updated).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcFn6KsxOgo
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:08 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Anyone geolocate the latest CCTV video?

Actually, here's a better source: A screenshot from the NY Times updated video compilation.

https://i.imgur.com/AwoT6pT.png
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:27 am

Maybe they were hacked, maybe they weren't. At this stage I simply remain open minded, as we don't have all the information.

I've shared info from Russian and UK experts to demonstrate their incredulity that such a mistake could have happened. Which means that if it WAS solely the Iranians, then globally we must think about what to do with countries who have missiles without proper procedures in place to avoid shooting down airliners.

Someone has asked why would the USA be hacking air defences? And on another thread, someone has asked about the Russians. There are countries who would gain politically by setting up Iran to shoot down its own plane. It destabilises them internally (as we have seen) and ostracises them internationally. So there definitely is motive.

I agree that the "drunk monkey with a grenade" theory may well be the most likely scenario. But we do need the technical details before concluding this.

It's obviously highly relevant to air travel as we fly over many countries with missiles and without the proper safeguards so it could change routings and procedures for the aviation industry, particularly in times of unrest. This incident could and indeed should, reshape our policies.

(A reminder that there is a political thread for those who want to discuss that).
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:40 am

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Maybe they were hacked, maybe they weren't. At this stage I simply remain open minded, as we don't have all the information.

I've shared info from Russian and UK experts to demonstrate their incredulity that such a mistake could have happened. Which means that if it WAS solely the Iranians, then globally we must think about what to do with countries who have missiles without proper procedures in place to avoid shooting down airliners.

Someone has asked why would the USA be hacking air defences? And on another thread, someone has asked about the Russians. There are countries who would gain politically by setting up Iran to shoot down its own plane. It destabilises them internally (as we have seen) and ostracises them internationally. So there definitely is motive.

I agree that the "drunk monkey with a grenade" theory may well be the most likely scenario. But we do need the technical details before concluding this.

It's obviously highly relevant to air travel as we fly over many countries with missiles and without the proper safeguards so it could change routings and procedures for the aviation industry, particularly in times of unrest. This incident could and indeed should, reshape our policies.

(A reminder that there is a political thread for those who want to discuss that).

The Iran government have discretely noticed the USA in advance about the strike and that there response will be limited to this strike, so from the Iran government point of view, closing the Iran airspace was perceived as a weak move. On the contrary the Iran military was on high alert. There is an unverified story about the military urging to close the airspace, but without effect. In addition to that the Tor operator experienced communication problems. But how many cruse missile that Tor operator have shot before that ? The Russian experts was precisely "experts" for a reason: there have a lot of experience with the Tor system radar and identification. But how about the Iran Tor operator experience ? High alert, confusing airspace, communication problems, lack of experience: this is already a recipe of disaster that don't require external intervention.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:39 pm

"Hacking" is a magical word and makes people jump to pretty crazy conclusions.

Do we have any evidence of hacking? The only thing I've heard was that the operator had problems communicating with higher. That's it. That could be a myriad of things. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think people are connecting too many dots that just aren't there. Think about it backwards:

The US wants to create a shoot down... So they nothing else (as far as we've seen and as far as Iran has admitted) but jam the operator's comms with higher? That's a stretch of a plan with a very low guarantee it'd work.

I don't know, it just doesn't make much sense. It makes more sense if you start with the conclusion already and force facts into place, but that's a fallacy.
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:46 pm

Pixel flight, that sounds like an entirely plausible explanation.

Delta MD90, I understand your reservations and you might be right too. Working backwards as you've suggested, if the usa (or anyone else) wanted to cause this situation they may have had intel that the more experienced operators had been shifted to the front line, and that there would be a shift change at 6am. They may have jammed Comms deliberately and changed the transponder, using the known vulnerability of a new, inexperienced operator with no comms and what looked like a missile to generate this terrible situation.

Alternatively the comms jamming (if it even existed) could have even been accidental, - maybe kit was being moved and it hadn't been switched off after the previous nights hostilities.

If this sounds far fetched, it may well be, but the latest link I posted said the operator would have had at least 30 seconds and maybe more to make the decision. Not the 10 seconds claimed. So something isn't adding up here.

It could be as simple as the operator lying about having contacted command; they were a rookie and just panicked. Iran doesn't want us to know how incredibly inept their military is, so they are blaming it on a comms failure.

Please keep an open mind until we have the technical details. I'm amazed no one has yet confirmed the transponder was working normally as this seems critical and they would have the data already.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:01 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
I'm amazed no one has yet confirmed the transponder was working normally as this seems critical and they would have the data already.

This map show the SECOND missile impact and the ADS-B data [source Bellingcat]:
Image

This video show the FIRST and SECOND missiles impacts [source New-York Times]:
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000006920114/iran-plane-missile-video.html?smid=pl-share
Count yourself: there are 24 seconds between the two missiles impacts.

Now find in the ADS-B data the distance PS752 traveled in 24 seconds: about the 5 lasts ADS-B points.
Finally report that distance of 5 ADS-B points on the map after the last ADS-B point: So close to the SECOND missile impact area.
Conclusion: The FIRST missile impact was immediately after the last ADS-B point.
Remember that the FIRST missile traveled 18 seconds from the launch to the impact.
So, at the time of the FIRST missile launch, the ADS-B was working normally.

Note: I suspect that the flight recorders have stopped at exactly the same time as the ADS-B, and that we will never know any more details.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:45 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
I suspect that the flight recorders have stopped at exactly the same time as the ADS-B, and that we will never know any more details.

I have the same fear too, that the flight recorders stopped at the same time. So they will not be able to confirm if they still had any control of the aircraft. My guess is that they did not intentionally turn back after the missile intercepts due to the pilots being incapacitated.
 
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litz
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:57 pm

There was some speculation from some of the wreckage that one of the missiles impacted the EE bay directly under/behind the cockpit ...

If that were true, and it was the first hit, almost assuredly all data stopped at that point ... no computers, no EE, no data.

In "theory" the plane would still be flyable-ish (if the pilots survived), and the flight control cables were intact.
 
WindTunnel
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:27 pm

Apologies if this is asked and answered: where can I confirm the Jan. 8, 2020 filed flight plan for PS752? Many thanks in advance.
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:43 am

Thank you PixelFlight for the calculations. Sterling work. So we know the ADS-B was working and both missiles were launched manually. Agreed about the FDR. There may be additional info from passenger phones but obviously not avionics data.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ackers?amp

"ADS-B signals are unauthenticated and unencrypted, and “spoofing” or inserting a fake aircraft into the ADS-B system is easy."

Ukraine is also keeping an open mind:

https://www.unian.info/politics/amp-108 ... nally.html

"investigators are yet to establish whether it was actually an "unintentional" act, says Andriy Yermak, an aide to President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky.

Ukraine is considering the possibility of convening a meeting of the UN Security Council over the downing of Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 in Iran.

"This is being considered. We first need to find out whether our plane was attacked deliberately or unintentionally. Our actions depend on this conclusion. Each diplomatic process should have its own logic and sequence," Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) of Ukraine Oleksiy Danilov told the news outlet".
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:42 pm

Heck yeah, if people are spouting conspiracies, why isn't anyone implicating the Russians? After all if the specific target was an Ukrainian aircraft, the only antagonist with Ukraine are the Russian backed rebels.

I do not see the US or Iranians behind any of this conspiracy. Their conflict is political and any action would be straight forward as to make a political statement.

We've seen Russian clandestine before with the nuclear issotop posioning. And then while all the furror is focused on the downing, Mr. Putin has just solidified his power for the next decade.

This is only a satire of the current discussion. Please do not hack my bank account Mr. Putin

bt
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:36 pm

Image


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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm

MR27122 wrote:
The US never formally admitted fault, as in "What we did was wrong." The official position is only that the US regrets what happens, but believes its actions were reasonable under the circumstance. I'm not trying to defend this position, only to clarify what argument was given for it.

The US did admit the factual events: we fired on a civilian aircraft, there were indications it was a civilian aircraft that were not given sufficient consideration, and everyone onboard died as a result. 8 years later, the US paid $130 million in compensation to families of the victims. Again, we did not admit fault, and while the size of the payment may be small compared to what it would have been in the US, at least it provided a non-trivial amount of financial assistance for those who lost family members.

It is false that an F-14 poses no threat to a ship. It was designed as an air-to-air interceptor, but it was capable of carrying air-to-ground weapons. The shootdown occurred in the aftermath of Iran having successfully attacked USS Stark with Exocets launched from a Mirage, and it was known that they had been working on configuring other aircraft including their F-14's to be able to launch Exocets. In addition to the unknown status of those efforts, it could also have been carrying unguided bombs and been planning to descend to a low level attack like those Argentina successfully carried out in the Falklands War.

Nor was it concretely identified as an F-14. It had a proper civilian mode 3 IFF response, but a mode 2 IFF reponse (presumably from some other aircraft in the Vincenne's radar range) was also detected and interpreted as from flight 655. The crew member managing the target tracking then assigned it an ID as an F-14, apparently as an assumption. The actual aircraft type was unknown.

Other factors in the Flight 655 shootdown were the ongoing action with Iranian patrol boats, a mistaken report the aircraft was descending, the fact that it was not departing at a known scheduled time, and the inability to get a response to radio contact attempts.

I think that incident provides a lot of insight on how the Ukranian flight could have been mistakenly shot down.


Thanks for response & the excellent points of consequence. The US paid less than $130m in compensation, & did so only on condition that the Gov of Iran drop its IInternational Legal Relief efforts v the USA. The chain-of-events that led to 655 shoot-down is considerable & reflected many weak-links within the USN. A lot of confusion existed on that day & the Capt's ultimate order to shoot-down the "target" was regretful & decided upon via flawed intelligence & assumptions...not fact & fear of immediate harm to the Vincennes or other Naval vessels in the area. Your points are, again, excellent & the ultimate "teachable moment" (290 civilians killed) re: how numerous assumptions & mistakes are simply not tolerable for anybody in command of a War Vessel. The USA's posture of "regretfulness" & then justification of it's actions, in my opinion, was 100% wrong. W/ the Ukrainian shoot-down...Iran had just attacked US installations in Iraq...I'm talking a 2-3hrs prior to flight dep. The failed chain-of-events that went into the shoot-down....are far more justifiable than what occurred w/ the Vincennes....The USA struck the Gen, Iran struck back....the belief would be that this was an escalating conflict & the US would strike back. Nevertheless very sad....BUT it's an education for younger generations in the US...in Iran the # 290 has the same meaning as 9/11 in the USA. Again....just as a question...all the airlines, in my opinion, that dep Tehran post the Iraq strike are in my estimation culpable....Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines. Thanks for your informed response to my original post.


Actually it is pretty clear what was happening at Vincennes at that time. There were two major reasons why the plane was shot down. 1) one of the transponder messages from that target was identified as being a military plane, the very first one, as the following analysis of the Aegis system has shown. Followed by many more civillian transponder transmissions, but the first one was the one that was stuck in the minds of the crew. The factor here may be that Aegis combat system had unprecedented UI flaw - it reused the old target IDs, so it may not be the same target, but to the crew it appeared at the same target (of course their huge mistake was not recheck the identification of the plane later!). 2) USS Stark incident one year before in which sole (lone wolf or provocation, we will never know) Iraq fighter jet fired uncontested 2 Exocet missiles on USS Stark and almost sunk her. The crew of USS Stark wasted precious time trying the aircraft to identify itself (with aircraft remained silent), until it was in missile range. Result was 17 dead sailors, and the USS Stark captain court martialled for not defending its vessel.
 
xmp125a
Posts: 292
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:06 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I respect you, scbriml, I really do, but let's not pretend they weren't putting out BS and going into cover up mode mere hours, maybe even minutes, after the crash. THAT is what we are upset about.


I don't believe I've defended Iran, but equally I haven't demonised them either. Earlier in the thread I said that an accidental shootdown was a distinct possibility and sadly, that's turned out to be the case.

IMHO, what some posters haven't allowed for here is how Iran is structured. It's my understanding that the IRGC operates largely independently of the civilian government. I do not see it as impossible or implausible that the IRGC didn't notify the civilian government until such time as it became painfully clear exactly what happened. It may be that the civilian government knew within minutes, but it's also possible they didn't know for a couple of days. I'm happy to be shown that my 'leniency' towards the Iranian government is misplaced, but it needs to be with facts, not suspicion and feelings.

We see the same things in every crash thread we ever have - misinformation, incorrectly interpreted 'facts', misquotes, incorrect official statements and bad translations. We end up with dozens of conflicting stories - how often have we read of eyewitnesses saying a plane came down in flames, when it never did? And those are the crashes that happen outside what was practically a war zone. We've read in this thread how the Iranian have "bulldozed the site" in an attempt to cover up, only subsequently to have it confirmed that the Ukrainian investigators have access to everything and are happy with the cooperation they're getting from the Iranians.

All those things show how confused everything is in the immediate aftermath of a crash. The sad truth has come out, the Iranians have put their hand up and owned their tragic mistake. Hopefully, we will eventually understand exactly how this terrible event happened and more importantly, learned from it.

Ok, I gotcha. Structural differences in our countries and they did as well as could be expected.

What I'd say go that is it's still a fault of them... Their structure is screwed up. It's no fault but their own, and if I want to stay objective, I'll judge things the way they should be and not put on kid's gloves

Unfortunately, I doubt this will be the thing to cause any real changes. But regardless, going forward, I'll call things as I see it, whether it's the US, UK, Russia, Iran, China, etc, whether they're a democracy, communist, theocracy, etc

It think we're basically in agreement. I'm happy they admitted, considering Iran is Iran, but objectively, I'm not impressed by them


Basically, I think you are both right and actually these paramilitary "elite units" (Saddam had one too) which are apparently standard down there are an accident waiting to happen. They are intended to protect the leadership even in the event of mass desertions of the regular army (composed of reservists, many of whom have no deep loyalty to these autocratic regimes) or even military coup. We know that during the invasion of Iraq, Saddam's republican guard was much bigger PITA than the regular Iraq army. Now, to be successful in their mission to protect leadership and vital installations at any cost even against their own army, they must have totally separate command hierarchy (in Iran they are under direct command of the ayatollahs) and it is concivable that the relations between regular army and these elite yahoos are not the best (because the latter are the ones who are expected to discipline regular army as well). So separate command structure, their own aircraft defense, what could go wrong, eh? Accident waiting to happen.
 
bristolflyer1
Posts: 33
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:58 pm

@bikerthai, it could be anyone, including the Russians - we have a political thread for talking about that and others have suggested it.

All I'm saying is, in common with the British and Russian experts, and for the technical reasons they've given, I find it hard to accept that a mistake of this magnitude happened. That doesn't mean it didn't, just that it's a bit unbelievable.

I'm also saying that like the Ukrainians, I'm keeping an open mind. They seem to think it possibly wasn't an accident and want a thorough investigation.

Whatever the investigation reveals will impact the future of our aviation industry differently. So I think it's important to get to the bottom of things. I hope this will happen and all will be revealed in due course, but for political reasons it might not be.
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:26 am

Iran will send the black boxes to Ukraine.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-iran- ... KKBN1ZH0E5

Iran said on Saturday it was sending to Ukraine the black boxes from a Ukrainian passenger plane that the Iranian military shot down this month

Iran’s Tasnim news agency also reported the authorities were prepared for experts from France, Canada and the United States to examine information from the data and voice recorders of the Ukraine International Airlines plane that came down on Jan. 8.
 
WIederling
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:34 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you see it that way ANY plane starting or landing that day and the day before "narrowly escaped Iranian missiles".

"escape" would demand actually being shot at but not being hit.
Beyond the two that hit the 737 no other missiles seem to have been launched that day ( around Tehran.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
MR27122
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:16 am

xmp125a wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
The US never formally admitted fault, as in "What we did was wrong." The official position is only that the US regrets what happens, but believes its actions were reasonable under the circumstance. I'm not trying to defend this position, only to clarify what argument was given for it.

The US did admit the factual events: we fired on a civilian aircraft, there were indications it was a civilian aircraft that were not given sufficient consideration, and everyone onboard died as a result. 8 years later, the US paid $130 million in compensation to families of the victims. Again, we did not admit fault, and while the size of the payment may be small compared to what it would have been in the US, at least it provided a non-trivial amount of financial assistance for those who lost family members.

It is false that an F-14 poses no threat to a ship. It was designed as an air-to-air interceptor, but it was capable of carrying air-to-ground weapons. The shootdown occurred in the aftermath of Iran having successfully attacked USS Stark with Exocets launched from a Mirage, and it was known that they had been working on configuring other aircraft including their F-14's to be able to launch Exocets. In addition to the unknown status of those efforts, it could also have been carrying unguided bombs and been planning to descend to a low level attack like those Argentina successfully carried out in the Falklands War.

Nor was it concretely identified as an F-14. It had a proper civilian mode 3 IFF response, but a mode 2 IFF reponse (presumably from some other aircraft in the Vincenne's radar range) was also detected and interpreted as from flight 655. The crew member managing the target tracking then assigned it an ID as an F-14, apparently as an assumption. The actual aircraft type was unknown.

Other factors in the Flight 655 shootdown were the ongoing action with Iranian patrol boats, a mistaken report the aircraft was descending, the fact that it was not departing at a known scheduled time, and the inability to get a response to radio contact attempts.

I think that incident provides a lot of insight on how the Ukranian flight could have been mistakenly shot down.


Thanks for response & the excellent points of consequence. The US paid less than $130m in compensation, & did so only on condition that the Gov of Iran drop its IInternational Legal Relief efforts v the USA. The chain-of-events that led to 655 shoot-down is considerable & reflected many weak-links within the USN. A lot of confusion existed on that day & the Capt's ultimate order to shoot-down the "target" was regretful & decided upon via flawed intelligence & assumptions...not fact & fear of immediate harm to the Vincennes or other Naval vessels in the area. Your points are, again, excellent & the ultimate "teachable moment" (290 civilians killed) re: how numerous assumptions & mistakes are simply not tolerable for anybody in command of a War Vessel. The USA's posture of "regretfulness" & then justification of it's actions, in my opinion, was 100% wrong. W/ the Ukrainian shoot-down...Iran had just attacked US installations in Iraq...I'm talking a 2-3hrs prior to flight dep. The failed chain-of-events that went into the shoot-down....are far more justifiable than what occurred w/ the Vincennes....The USA struck the Gen, Iran struck back....the belief would be that this was an escalating conflict & the US would strike back. Nevertheless very sad....BUT it's an education for younger generations in the US...in Iran the # 290 has the same meaning as 9/11 in the USA. Again....just as a question...all the airlines, in my opinion, that dep Tehran post the Iraq strike are in my estimation culpable....Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines. Thanks for your informed response to my original post.


Actually it is pretty clear what was happening at Vincennes at that time. There were two major reasons why the plane was shot down. 1) one of the transponder messages from that target was identified as being a military plane, the very first one, as the following analysis of the Aegis system has shown. Followed by many more civillian transponder transmissions, but the first one was the one that was stuck in the minds of the crew. The factor here may be that Aegis combat system had unprecedented UI flaw - it reused the old target IDs, so it may not be the same target, but to the crew it appeared at the same target (of course their huge mistake was not recheck the identification of the plane later!). 2) USS Stark incident one year before in which sole (lone wolf or provocation, we will never know) Iraq fighter jet fired uncontested 2 Exocet missiles on USS Stark and almost sunk her. The crew of USS Stark wasted precious time trying the aircraft to identify itself (with aircraft remained silent), until it was in missile range. Result was 17 dead sailors, and the USS Stark captain court martialled for not defending its vessel.


Ahh, NO, actually nothin’ was pretty clear re the Vincennes “at the time”——unless by clarity you mean the intent was to shoot down an Iranian civillian airliner over Iranian territory.
*1 Military ping followed by “many more civilian” pings.
*An “unprecedented UI” glitch is a “factor”. Nah, it could be argued as ‘da factor!

You’re choosing the USS Stark as a premise for anything relating to Iranian aggression towards the USA is laughable. Ya, it was IRAQ who “accidentally” attacked the USS Stark ‘cause, as the USA’s good friend @ the time—-who is beyond reproach & lying——Saddam Hussein stated the pilot thought it was an Iranian Tanker. The Stark was operating in a war-zone. The fact is that Iran (passive bystanders) had no problemo w/ the Stark incident & ultimately both Iraq & the USA chose a path to BLAM IRAN for what happened…..logical….or….propaganda???? Furthermore….where’s the civillian “ingridient” w/ the Stark incident….an Iraqi war plane manufactured by France “accidentally” shoots an American war vessel during….well, A WAR.

290 innocents dead & US defines it as regrettable & awards the Capt....ohh & the ship is the techno-flagship....but as you indicated, it had some issues that would be "factors".
 
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zeke
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:41 pm

The CAO.IR has posted a second preliminary report to the crash on their website today.

Link to the report (in Frasi) https://www.cao.ir/web/english/investig ... 5nPT0=.pdf

New information I got from this report.

The crew had a rest at the Novotel at the airport.
The aircraft had 3 pilots onboard, with around 15,500 hours on the 737 between them
There is some doubt of the passenger list, seems the airline pulled the passenger list as it had too many people on it
Many passengers had multiple passports
Civil controllers had no idea of what was wrong, they saw the aircraft disappear from their SSR and tracked it on PSR turning right, making multiple attempts to contact them
Aircraft was refueled at the airport
The aircraft took off 32 kg below MTOW
The CVR,FDR, and QAR were recovered, one was fire damaged, one was impact damaged
The recorders will go to the NTSB or BEA
They are still in the process of forensic reconstruction of the wreckage to determine where the missiles hit
The two missile type were TOR-M1
Forensic identification of victims continues
Concludes with an open invitation for other countries to join in the investigation if they so desire.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
RadicalX
Posts: 19
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:31 pm

zeke wrote:
The CAO.IR has posted a second preliminary report to the crash on their website today.

Link to the report (in Frasi) https://www.cao.ir/web/english/investig ... 5nPT0=.pdf

New information I got from this report.

The crew had a rest at the Novotel at the airport.
The aircraft had 3 pilots onboard, with around 15,500 hours on the 737 between them
There is some doubt of the passenger list, seems the airline pulled the passenger list as it had too many people on it
Many passengers had multiple passports
Civil controllers had no idea of what was wrong, they saw the aircraft disappear from their SSR and tracked it on PSR turning right, making multiple attempts to contact them
Aircraft was refueled at the airport
The aircraft took off 32 kg below MTOW
The CVR,FDR, and QAR were recovered, one was fire damaged, one was impact damaged
The recorders will go to the NTSB or BEA
They are still in the process of forensic reconstruction of the wreckage to determine where the missiles hit
The two missile type were TOR-M1
Forensic identification of victims continues
Concludes with an open invitation for other countries to join in the investigation if they so desire.


I dob't think it says the recorders are going to BEA or NTSB. It says their requested the above organizations ti bring their equipment to Iran in order to download the data. And it seems like they both have refused. So Iran is trying to see if they can buy such equipments themselves without having to send the device to France.
 
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zeke
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:58 pm

RadicalX wrote:
I dob't think it says the recorders are going to BEA or NTSB. It says their requested the above organizations ti bring their equipment to Iran in order to download the data. And it seems like they both have refused. So Iran is trying to see if they can buy such equipments themselves without having to send the device to France.


I read it as to have a positive response to moving the investigation to those countries rather than moving the equipment to Iran.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:48 pm

https://www.fort-russ.com/2020/01/texas ... adding-up/

"There remain a lot of unanswered questions and implausible explanations in the story of the Ukrainian airliner shot down near Tehran on January 8th, 2020. And while the Iranians have publicly and officially taken responsibility, there may be other reasons for them taking responsibility besides their actually having done it. I can think of several, and I will propose a few. But one thing I am certain of, with good reason – the “accident” story is bullshit, no matter who is telling it, and no matter why.

The first thing to understand about the SA-15 system is that it DOES have an IFF interrogator built into its radar system. The interrogator sends out a pulse that detects and interprets the IFF civilian airliner transponder signal automatically, every few seconds. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated prior to take off.

Planes can be allowed to take off with only one operational transponder, and it is possible that the single transponder can fail or a pilot (and co-pilot, and even ATC) can forget to make sure it’s on before take off. My friend, a professional airline pilot, explains that if the plane is preparing for take off and the ATC does not see the transponder on his radar screen, he will remind the pilot, who will turn it on before take off. My friend has also told me that it does happen that the pilot, co-pilot and ATC can and sometimes do all forget and/or fail to notice the transponder is not on before take off.

So, it could be possible for a plane to take off without an IFF transponder operating. On a flight across several international borders, into combat skies, where the IFF would be THE most important single safety system on the plane on this flight. Even flight PS-752.
.
Yes, it would be possible that they all overlooked it, except for one thing – we KNOW that they did not. That the flight was recorded on FLIGHTRADAR24.COM, proves that the transponder was on and working. The transponder was on and working, and the SA-15 radar, would have seen the unique flight info code for the regularly scheduled civilian flight on the radar screen, as would all ADA radars and all other civilian and military radars within range.
.
Even without an IFF transponder response, the SA-15/TOR M-1 radar provides the following data – location, bearing, speed and size (amplitude). That means, even if there was no IFF signal, (though, again, we KNOW there was) just from the radar blip on the screen, the operator gets the above info, location, bearing, speed and size, stating the object is going 180 degrees away from Aria military airbase, 90 degrees away from Tehran, (PS-752 did not turn right until after the first missile hit) going about half the speed of a Tomahawk cruise missile (275 knots vs 480 knots) and the amplitude of its return radar signal is exactly that of the profile of a Boeing 737, many times bigger and different from that of a cruise missile or enemy military aircraft of any kind.

Besides the integrated IFF interrogator, and the K-band Doppler radar, the SA-15 has another detection/ID/targeting system – an automatic all weather day/night NV/IR Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS) used for target engagement and fire control, with a range of 20 Km. The 9M330 series of rockets have a max range of 15 Km, so if they could hit it, they could see it. And what they see on an EOTS screen is something EXACTLY like this. [See video link at bottom]

Actually, this is all you need to see, in order to know that the “accidental launch” story is a lie.If the IFF interrogator didn’t work, the radar return profile would have told 100% it was a 737 and nothing else. If the radar didn’t work, the EOTS with a single glance, would have shown a 737 and not a cruise missile or F-35.
.
And if all the above did not work, it would not be possible to launch not one but two missiles, from the SA-15/TOR M-1 system and hit the plane."

[There's so much more, but check out the video of the TOR - they shoot a tiny drone and on the screen inside the tank you can clearly see it's a drone, at 13.00, so how could they not have been able to tell the difference between a massive 737 and a missile?!].

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=objljEE7B ... u.be&t=682
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:45 am

bristolflyer1 wrote:
https://www.fort-russ.com/2020/01/texas-iranian-flight-crash-facts-not-adding-up/

The first thing to understand about the SA-15 system is that it DOES have an IFF interrogator built into its radar system. The interrogator sends out a pulse that detects and interprets the IFF civilian airliner transponder signal automatically, every few seconds. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated prior to take off.

Does the ADS-B transponder act as an IFF transponder? Or are they two separate things?

If they are the same thing, then yes FR24 data confirms that ADS-B (and hence IFF) was working prior to the missile strike.

However, when was ADS-B introduced? The 9K331 Tor-M1 was introduced in 1991. If ADS-B was introduced after 1991, maybe the Tor-M1 system is not able to decode the newer system?
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:05 am

flybucky wrote:
bristolflyer1 wrote:
https://www.fort-russ.com/2020/01/texas-iranian-flight-crash-facts-not-adding-up/

The first thing to understand about the SA-15 system is that it DOES have an IFF interrogator built into its radar system. The interrogator sends out a pulse that detects and interprets the IFF civilian airliner transponder signal automatically, every few seconds. Boeing 737 aircraft are equipped with two IFF transponders, which are set and activated prior to take off.

Does the ADS-B transponder act as an IFF transponder? Or are they two separate things?

If they are the same thing, then yes FR24 data confirms that ADS-B (and hence IFF) was working prior to the missile strike.

However, when was ADS-B introduced? The 9K331 Tor-M1 was introduced in 1991. If ADS-B was introduced after 1991, maybe the Tor-M1 system is not able to decode the newer system?

My understanding is that this is the same transponder equipment that provides mode S (ADS-B), mode C and mode A (IFF mark X).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes
"One of the hidden features of Mode S transponders is that they are backwards compatible; an aircraft equipped with a Mode S transponder can still be used to send replies to Mode A or C interrogations."

So it's should be compatible with IFF mark X that provides mode 3/A since about 1950:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe#IFF_Mark_X

As the 9K331 Tor-M1 system was introduced when the USSR collapsed, it's not very clear to me if it have a mark X IFF compatible capability. It look like the URSS used a completely different system back then:
https://www.mil-airfields.de/equipment/soviet-russian-iff-parol.htm
https://www.mil-airfields.de/equipment/soviet-iff-kremniy.htm
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/soviet-russian-iff.792/
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Dominion301
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:36 pm

Class-action lawsuit launched today for the Canadians onboard against the Iranian 'government', Iran 'elite' revolutionary guard and UIA (for departing from a high-risk area when other airllines were avoiding it).

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 67120.html
 
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william
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:29 pm

flybucky wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
Anyone geolocate the latest CCTV video?

Actually, here's a better source: A screenshot from the NY Times updated video compilation.

https://i.imgur.com/AwoT6pT.png


Wow, say what you want about the 737 age, but to hit with two missiles and still be able to make a turn back the airport is a testament to the pilots and the aircraft
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:43 pm

AVHerald's article updated with an English summary of the Preliminary Report (which was in Farsi only).

https://avherald.com/h?article=4d1aea51

Examination of aircraft debris suggests that there had been no fire inside the cabin of the aircraft.
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:55 am

Thanks Pixelflight. Have you seen the video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=objljEE7B ... u.be&t=682 and do we know if it's the same version of the TOR the Iranians had? At 13.00 you can see the drone very clearly on the screen. Can we assume the Iranian operator would be looking at a similar thing?

Also, is anyone able to cut and paste the info from this link please
https://www.chronicleonline.com/opinion ... 2ccb6.html

I am in the EU so I'm blocked from accessing it. Many thanks.
 
tu204
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:30 pm

Something else people here would find interesting: at least the newer TOR modifications are designed to target the "front" of the target, and not the "center of mass". Explains the damage to the underside of the cockpit.

This feature was included because like proven during the Gulf War, many Iraqi missiles continued to targets when the Patriots hit the target, but didn't damage the warhead and missile still found it's way.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:52 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Thanks Pixelflight. Have you seen the video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=objljEE7B ... u.be&t=682 and do we know if it's the same version of the TOR the Iranians had? At 13.00 you can see the drone very clearly on the screen. Can we assume the Iranian operator would be looking at a similar thing?
Yes I have see that video. I don't think this is the same version, and I did not understand the distance of the drone, so impossible for me to respond to the question.

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Also, is anyone able to cut and paste the info from this link please
https://www.chronicleonline.com/opinion ... 2ccb6.html

I am in the EU so I'm blocked from accessing it. Many thanks.

Plane downing not an accident
Jan 19, 2020 Updated Jan 19, 2020 2
The Ukraine International Airline Boeing 737 downed by the Iranians was neither an accident nor a mistake. It was a deliberate and calculated act.
As a retired airline pilot, I can tell you there is an electronic device on each of these airplanes called a transponder, a radar beacon as it were. This beacon transmits the airline flight number, the altitude, and in some cases, the magnetic compass heading of that airplane. There is no mistaking of who or what each airplane is. The four-digit code in the transponder is, incidentally, assigned by the departing airport’s radar departure facility, in this case Tehran. The Iranian officer who pushed the button had to have this information. To him this was just another plane load of infidels. The Russian-made AN15 ground-to-air missile is GPS guided and heat seeking, in that it homes in on the heat signature generated by the airplane’s engines. The Iranian’s initial response to this travesty was to not admit that it was their responsibility, and that tells us all what we need to know.
Speculative scenario impossible to assert at this time.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
bristolflyer1
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:30 am

Thank you pixel flight and tu204

"the newer TOR modifications are designed to target the "front" of the target" - so it looks like they had the newer version of the missile then, presumably with that version's guidance system, it would be interesting to know what that is.

I wonder when we will hear more, and why other nations aren't pressing for more details. I would have thought by now the Iranians would have been forced to admit details about who fired the missile etc.

The last I heard they were trying to source the equipment to obtain the black box data as they don't have the capability and don't want to hand it over to eg Ukraine or France...

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