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lightsaber
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:34 pm

Folks, do not discuss other users. We now know the truth. We moderators deleted flagged posts that violated forum rules.

We moderators do not arbitrate truth. Our volunteer job is to allow discussion within forum rules. So we will not be going back through posts. Please move forward with the new information.

Also keep on track. Limit political discussion to on topic relavence without condemnation of another opinion that requires retaliation and is thus flamebait.

Lightsaber
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SFOtoORD
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:43 pm

zeke wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

You’re being pedantic and it’s a foolish response. It’s crystal clear this site is not being properly handled. Feel free to choose whatever words you want, but this is a cover up.


Where is your evidence to say that the investigation is not being properly conducted ?

Over and over again we have allegations thrown at Iran what they are doing to cover this up, none of it with any evidence. We have had the hysteria that they they would not send the black boxes to Boeing or NTSB (who have no right to them under international agreements), allegations that they have bulldozed the accident site (no evidence apart from a front end loader being used to move parts around), now you are accusing them of improperly conducting an investigation.

Where is your evidence ?

Meanwhile the facts are the opposite, in 72 hours an internal military investigation report determined the accidentally shot the aircraft down. That is exceedingly quick to get a report like that out.

Meanwhile the CAO.IR released their preliminary report in Persian and English.

https://www.cao.ir/web/accidents/report ... VnPT0=.pdf

Ukrainian observers are on site and are being allowed access to everything with full transparency. The aircraft parts were transferred to a special hanger so they could perform the investigation, which is not unusual.

From avherald

Iran's AIB Chairman : "All wreckage parts were transferred to the special hanger in order to investigate with cooperation of NTSB, Ukraine NBAI and other interest parties which has been invited officially." The chairman continued: "Due to special political condition of my country, we instituted a special group more than technical accident investigation groups to assess the condition of Laser attack or dangerous good- electromagnetic (radioactive threat) and unlawful action. The initial conclusion of this group confirmed that there was not found any evidence of mentioned actions on the accident site. Also we will trace all other evidences of the accident by gathering all information of the accident." The chairman indicated the AIB plans to release a preliminary first report in English during Jan 9th 2020.”

“On Jan 9th 2020 Ukraine's NBAAI reported: "Ukrainian accredited representative with group of advisors and experts arrived to Islamic Republic of Iran. Investigators would have to collect as much information as possible on the accident site, assess the wreckage in order to control the objectiveness and impartiality of the investigation process. Ukrainian representatives, according to ICAO standards and recommended practices, will participate in procedures of read-out, processing and analysis of flight and voice data, obtained from the flight recorders (black boxes)."

On Jan 9th 2020 Ukrainian Media report citing an unnamed member of the Ukrainian investigation team, that the Iranian officials fully cooperate and don't appear to hide anything, full access to the investigtion and black boxes has been granted, everything is transparent. The aircraft has been on fire, however, as of current the version of an engine malfunction can not be confirmed.”


You try to use simple words to deny a “bulldozer” when the world sees a front end loader quickly clearing the site. It’s disingenuous and pollutes this forum.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:47 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
Is the theory that the plane went off course/turned back to the airport part of an official statement?

Cause stating that the pilot made a turn without saying anything to the ATC is a huge accusation for the pilots, but I still haven't seen any evidence pointing to the fact that the plane changed its course before being hit.


It's pretty much certain that it made a 180 turn before it was hit by the missile because the crash site is several miles east of the last FR24 position heading northwest, and the direction of impact heading southeast. If the plane was heading northwest when it got hit by a missile, there is no way it would've crashed in a southeast direction. It must have made a 180 turn at least partially to the north or east before it was hit by a missile to crash in a southeast direction.


You do know that wind will effect the trajectory of the wreckage as well as any missile impact effects. Plus, if it turned BEFORE Impact, the turn would shown in the ADS-B data.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:47 pm

So, for comparison sake, how long was it before wreckage from PanAm 103 was removed? For more recent comparison, how about Colgan 3407?
 
kennethP3
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:49 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
You try to use simple words to deny a “bulldozer” when the world sees a front end loader quickly clearing the site. It’s disingenuous and pollutes this forum.

How uncommon is it for a crash site to be cleared in two days?
 
MR27122
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:50 pm

11C wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
11C wrote:

As pointed out by others, commercial satellites are launched to make money. Missile launch detection, and especially in a specific country is a military mission, not a commercially viable mission for a civilian satellite. And if you don’t think Russia spies on, or monitors its “allies” I suggest you do some reading on the subject. You will find plenty of evidence that virtually all countries with sufficient resources spy on each other, allies are not exempt. In any case, it sure looks like an SA-15 seeker head in the ditch. If that was faked, it’s right up there with the LAPD pre-planting blood evidence at OJ’s house. Not likely. The actions of the Iranian government since the crash certainly are consistent with an uncoordinated response in the first hours, followed by a more coordinated, consistent message. In other words, after screwing up, and shooting down a jetliner, their first response was to deny, obfuscate, blame others. It reeks of guilt. The initial response, as others have noted, was similar by the US government when we shot down an airliner. The big difference ultimately will be that the US came clean. I’m not sure if a weak, totalitarian, religious regime can afford to do the same. But, we shall see.


For purposes of clarity....
The USA never accepted legal blame or apologized to Iran re: Flt 655. The Vincennes "strong" crew shot down an Iranian pax A300 over Iranian International Waters in broad daylight. Furthermore the target the Vincennes "strong" crew believed the A300 to be was strictly Air-to-Air & not Air-to-Ground. Stated more plainly, the "strong" US Navy shot down an Iranian airliner, that if it were indeed a military aircraft, posed zero threat to the Vincennes...& they did so over Iranian "territory". The Commander of the Vincennes remained in-command for the remainder of the deployment & was subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit.

Suggesting the US "came clean" is contrary to historical fact.

This was a tragedy that occurred in a very rapid--USA initiated/escalated "atmosphere".

The "calendar" simply didn't "work out" for the victims....from what I've read, many were visiting Iran during a holiday-break. Jan 3, 2020 the USA assassinates Gen Soleimani in Iraq (Provoked by? Reporting suggests this "action" was decided upon by one-person who had been offered a "menu" of options w/ assassination being the ultimate/nuclear offering & those who presented the menu were shocked by the decision to take this "menu" option). Jan 8, 2020 Iran---as EXPECTED---retaliates by targeting USA military targets in Iraq. What is questionable? Why would ANY airline conduct operations out of what immediately---upon expected Iranian retaliation---became a hot/war zone?

My purpose for posting is not to be "pro" any Sovereign Nation....it's for clarity re: Flt 655 facts. An apex modern US Warship v. aging/antiquated surface-to-air...same result (should that end w/ an explanation-point or question-mark)

-USMA '92


Admitted it? That’s what I meant. Not sure what you took as my meaning. I don’t think anything about it was ok.


My interpretation of how you framed IR655 shoot-down was that US "coming clean" was too blanketed---the US expressed "regret", never assumed LEGAL liability (victim families could sue the USA), & never apologized. The US "came clean" re: involvement & "regret" for its involvement (BUT I question the earnestly of this considering the Capt of Vincennes completed the deployment---4 more months & ultimately received & Legion of Merit---that could be interpreted as his having a "Hero's Welcome" post a "regretful" civilian airliner shoot-down over Iranian territory) . I never-never-never meant to offend you & apologies if I did. To be informed---which many in the US aren't 'cause 655 occurred decades ago....the # 290 resonates w/ the people of Iran just like the 9/11 does to American's. Again, no offense intended....just wanted to further clarify the facts of 655.
 
N212R
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:53 pm

76er wrote:
"Iranian Revolutionary Guard General takes blame: "I wish I were dead""

Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad just posted an article citing general Amir Ali Hajizadeh admitting on national Iranian TV it was one of his Revolutionary Guard units that shot down the plane.

Here's the link, in Dutch: https://www.ad.nl/buitenland/iraanse-ge ... ~a1367189/

So much for the rogue unit or weekend warrior theory.


Seems even the Iranians know how to stage a good made for TV drama...do they get Netflix in Iran?
 
9Patch
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:55 pm

The Daily Beast reports:

At a separate press briefing in Kyev, Ukraine, the airline’s CEO Yevgenii Dyhkne said his pilot had been in touch with the Tehran airport control tower just moments before the plane went down. “We have been reassured that [the aircraft] had the dialogue with the airport, with the dispatcher tower, until the last moment of the catastrophe,” he said. “There were negotiations about the route, they had permission to turn, so all of this is now connected to the investigation and I’m sure it will be available in documents in time.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/iran-ukra ... -shot-down
 
WIederling
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
........ after satellite data shows it was shot down, and Iran admits it?


Do you perchance have a copy?
What I've seen up to now is press statements from the US. Nothing tangible.
Murphy is an optimist
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:14 pm

WIederling wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
........ after satellite data shows it was shot down, and Iran admits it?


Do you perchance have a copy?
What I've seen up to now is press statements from the US. Nothing tangible.


Because governments release their military satellite data daily. Another useless point to argue, but I guess everyone here needs to carry on with typical agendas. :roll:
 
MR27122
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:15 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
For purposes of clarity....
The USA never accepted legal blame or apologized to Iran re: Flt 655. The Vincennes "strong" crew shot down an Iranian pax A300 over Iranian International Waters in broad daylight. Furthermore the target the Vincennes "strong" crew believed the A300 to be was strictly Air-to-Air & not Air-to-Ground. Stated more plainly, the "strong" US Navy shot down an Iranian airliner, that if it were indeed a military aircraft, posed zero threat to the Vincennes...& they did so over Iranian "territory". The Commander of the Vincennes remained in-command for the remainder of the deployment & was subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit.

Suggesting the US "came clean" is contrary to historical fact.

....

My purpose for posting is not to be "pro" any Sovereign Nation....it's for clarity re: Flt 655 facts. An apex modern US Warship v. aging/antiquated surface-to-air...same result (should that end w/ an explanation-point or question-mark)


The US never formally admitted fault, as in "What we did was wrong." The official position is only that the US regrets what happens, but believes its actions were reasonable under the circumstance. I'm not trying to defend this position, only to clarify what argument was given for it.

The US did admit the factual events: we fired on a civilian aircraft, there were indications it was a civilian aircraft that were not given sufficient consideration, and everyone onboard died as a result. 8 years later, the US paid $130 million in compensation to families of the victims. Again, we did not admit fault, and while the size of the payment may be small compared to what it would have been in the US, at least it provided a non-trivial amount of financial assistance for those who lost family members.

It is false that an F-14 poses no threat to a ship. It was designed as an air-to-air interceptor, but it was capable of carrying air-to-ground weapons. The shootdown occurred in the aftermath of Iran having successfully attacked USS Stark with Exocets launched from a Mirage, and it was known that they had been working on configuring other aircraft including their F-14's to be able to launch Exocets. In addition to the unknown status of those efforts, it could also have been carrying unguided bombs and been planning to descend to a low level attack like those Argentina successfully carried out in the Falklands War.

Nor was it concretely identified as an F-14. It had a proper civilian mode 3 IFF response, but a mode 2 IFF reponse (presumably from some other aircraft in the Vincenne's radar range) was also detected and interpreted as from flight 655. The crew member managing the target tracking then assigned it an ID as an F-14, apparently as an assumption. The actual aircraft type was unknown.

Other factors in the Flight 655 shootdown were the ongoing action with Iranian patrol boats, a mistaken report the aircraft was descending, the fact that it was not departing at a known scheduled time, and the inability to get a response to radio contact attempts.

I think that incident provides a lot of insight on how the Ukranian flight could have been mistakenly shot down.


Thanks for response & the excellent points of consequence. The US paid less than $130m in compensation, & did so only on condition that the Gov of Iran drop its IInternational Legal Relief efforts v the USA. The chain-of-events that led to 655 shoot-down is considerable & reflected many weak-links within the USN. A lot of confusion existed on that day & the Capt's ultimate order to shoot-down the "target" was regretful & decided upon via flawed intelligence & assumptions...not fact & fear of immediate harm to the Vincennes or other Naval vessels in the area. Your points are, again, excellent & the ultimate "teachable moment" (290 civilians killed) re: how numerous assumptions & mistakes are simply not tolerable for anybody in command of a War Vessel. The USA's posture of "regretfulness" & then justification of it's actions, in my opinion, was 100% wrong. W/ the Ukrainian shoot-down...Iran had just attacked US installations in Iraq...I'm talking a 2-3hrs prior to flight dep. The failed chain-of-events that went into the shoot-down....are far more justifiable than what occurred w/ the Vincennes....The USA struck the Gen, Iran struck back....the belief would be that this was an escalating conflict & the US would strike back. Nevertheless very sad....BUT it's an education for younger generations in the US...in Iran the # 290 has the same meaning as 9/11 in the USA. Again....just as a question...all the airlines, in my opinion, that dep Tehran post the Iraq strike are in my estimation culpable....Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines. Thanks for your informed response to my original post.
 
airhansa
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:33 pm

My summary from what I understood:

PS752 takes of from IKA around an hour late as weight issues forced the pilot to unload some cargo/luggage. A few minutes after takeoff, the plane banks right as per a regularly flown flight path (albeit towards a missile base but they should be used to the flights). A few seconds after banking rightwards, the plane is hit by a missile (coming from directly in front of it) striking (or exploding in the vicinity of) the front of the plane, at which point the transponder goes off and plane communications knocked out. The rest of the plane is probably together so the plane "glides" at a shallow angle towards the ground and the plane continues its rightward bank towards the site where the debris was found. The fire probably started at the front of the plane and the airflow through the plane probably swept the fire back towards the wings and fuel tank, setting the fuel tank alight at the last second before the crash (the rest of the plane may have gotten hit by shrapnel causing a possible leak in the fuel tank).

The happenings at the military missile base are harder to understand. I wonder whether the military had been updated on the new transponder system used by planes (though I imagine that most planes would have switched by new year as per FAA guidelines), or maybe if the military had moved the "usual" staff at that missile base to another one so they could launch the missiles at Iraq. Why on earth would they suspect a flight that was flying on a normal flight path to be an enemy plane, especially when it had just come out of the country's biggest international airport a few minutes beforehand?
 
heyjoojoo
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:44 pm

MR27122 wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
For purposes of clarity....
The USA never accepted legal blame or apologized to Iran re: Flt 655. The Vincennes "strong" crew shot down an Iranian pax A300 over Iranian International Waters in broad daylight. Furthermore the target the Vincennes "strong" crew believed the A300 to be was strictly Air-to-Air & not Air-to-Ground. Stated more plainly, the "strong" US Navy shot down an Iranian airliner, that if it were indeed a military aircraft, posed zero threat to the Vincennes...& they did so over Iranian "territory". The Commander of the Vincennes remained in-command for the remainder of the deployment & was subsequently awarded the Legion of Merit.

Suggesting the US "came clean" is contrary to historical fact.

....

My purpose for posting is not to be "pro" any Sovereign Nation....it's for clarity re: Flt 655 facts. An apex modern US Warship v. aging/antiquated surface-to-air...same result (should that end w/ an explanation-point or question-mark)


The US never formally admitted fault, as in "What we did was wrong." The official position is only that the US regrets what happens, but believes its actions were reasonable under the circumstance. I'm not trying to defend this position, only to clarify what argument was given for it.

The US did admit the factual events: we fired on a civilian aircraft, there were indications it was a civilian aircraft that were not given sufficient consideration, and everyone onboard died as a result. 8 years later, the US paid $130 million in compensation to families of the victims. Again, we did not admit fault, and while the size of the payment may be small compared to what it would have been in the US, at least it provided a non-trivial amount of financial assistance for those who lost family members.

It is false that an F-14 poses no threat to a ship. It was designed as an air-to-air interceptor, but it was capable of carrying air-to-ground weapons. The shootdown occurred in the aftermath of Iran having successfully attacked USS Stark with Exocets launched from a Mirage, and it was known that they had been working on configuring other aircraft including their F-14's to be able to launch Exocets. In addition to the unknown status of those efforts, it could also have been carrying unguided bombs and been planning to descend to a low level attack like those Argentina successfully carried out in the Falklands War.

Nor was it concretely identified as an F-14. It had a proper civilian mode 3 IFF response, but a mode 2 IFF reponse (presumably from some other aircraft in the Vincenne's radar range) was also detected and interpreted as from flight 655. The crew member managing the target tracking then assigned it an ID as an F-14, apparently as an assumption. The actual aircraft type was unknown.

Other factors in the Flight 655 shootdown were the ongoing action with Iranian patrol boats, a mistaken report the aircraft was descending, the fact that it was not departing at a known scheduled time, and the inability to get a response to radio contact attempts.

I think that incident provides a lot of insight on how the Ukranian flight could have been mistakenly shot down.


Thanks for response & the excellent points of consequence. The US paid less than $130m in compensation, & did so only on condition that the Gov of Iran drop its IInternational Legal Relief efforts v the USA. The chain-of-events that led to 655 shoot-down is considerable & reflected many weak-links within the USN. A lot of confusion existed on that day & the Capt's ultimate order to shoot-down the "target" was regretful & decided upon via flawed intelligence & assumptions...not fact & fear of immediate harm to the Vincennes or other Naval vessels in the area. Your points are, again, excellent & the ultimate "teachable moment" (290 civilians killed) re: how numerous assumptions & mistakes are simply not tolerable for anybody in command of a War Vessel. The USA's posture of "regretfulness" & then justification of it's actions, in my opinion, was 100% wrong. W/ the Ukrainian shoot-down...Iran had just attacked US installations in Iraq...I'm talking a 2-3hrs prior to flight dep. The failed chain-of-events that went into the shoot-down....are far more justifiable than what occurred w/ the Vincennes....The USA struck the Gen, Iran struck back....the belief would be that this was an escalating conflict & the US would strike back. Nevertheless very sad....BUT it's an education for younger generations in the US...in Iran the # 290 has the same meaning as 9/11 in the USA. Again....just as a question...all the airlines, in my opinion, that dep Tehran post the Iraq strike are in my estimation culpable....Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines. Thanks for your informed response to my original post.


Actually, the US did admit fault. I remember when president Reagan did say, "it was an understandable accident".
 
PaxPicti
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:46 pm

If a missile hit the front of the plane on the left side or underneath then there were two separate hits, since the holes in the vertical stabiliser clearly show that the direction of the shrapnel was from the right and roughly level with the middle of the fuselage. This would also explain a fire in the right wing.

Given that the US says that two missiles were fired, it may be that the first missile was what alerted the man who took the video that something was happening, and he then filmed the second missile hit and the start of the fire.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:53 pm

MR27122 wrote:
Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines.

On the part of the airlines??

True, there are times when airlines make mistakes, and many of them were actively avoiding the region. No matter how much you blame the airlines, the Iranian authorities have MUCH more blame.

It's not their job to "simply keep the airport open." Iran has much much much more intel on how safe their country is than UIA. They are responsible for warning airlines of threats and/or shutting traffic down.

Basically, you are blaming the airline (which to a degree I can maybe agree with) but absolving Iran for not shutting down aviation during probably the most heightened air defense tensions in recent memory
 
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scbriml
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:53 pm

PW100 wrote:
Considering the geopolitical nature, I'd say three days is pretty quick. We are still waiting for "someone" to confess the MH17 shooting.


:checkmark:

Indeed, you'd think absolutely nothing else was going on to listen to some. Given the view of many here that Iran is the World's bogeyman, nothing short of Rouhani saying Iran deliberately shot down an airliner, then publicly executing himself would satisfy them.
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cannedtuna
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:05 pm

Regarding disappearance of ADS-B before plane was hit by missile, has cyberattack been ruled out? There are numerous whitepapers that are out there that cite about security concerns regarding ADS-B and how easy it is to exploit it.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Considering the geopolitical nature, I'd say three days is pretty quick. We are still waiting for "someone" to confess the MH17 shooting.


:checkmark:

Indeed, you'd think absolutely nothing else was going on to listen to some. Given the view of many here that Iran is the World's bogeyman, nothing short of Rouhani saying Iran deliberately shot down an airliner, then publicly executing himself would satisfy them.

Nah, how about not flat out lying? Simple silence and "we are looking into it" would suffice.

I respect you, scbriml, I really do, but let's not pretend they weren't putting out BS and going into cover up mode mere hours, maybe even minutes, after the crash. THAT is what we are upset about.

Had all the misinformation not been put out (nothing/generic "investigation underway" comments until the admission) I think it would have been a day or two too late but a thousand times better than what they did
 
MR27122
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:15 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines.

On the part of the airlines??

True, there are times when airlines make mistakes, and many of them were actively avoiding the region. No matter how much you blame the airlines, the Iranian authorities have MUCH more blame.

It's not their job to "simply keep the airport open." Iran has much much much more intel on how safe their country is than UIA. They are responsible for warning airlines of threats and/or shutting traffic down.

Basically, you are blaming the airline (which to a degree I can maybe agree with) but absolving Iran for not shutting down aviation during probably the most heightened air defense tensions in recent memory


Thanks. No absolution to Iran. Non Av Geeks re Av "want" quick answers & as those on this forum know, that isn't how Av works in the aftermath of an incident. The airlines, in this instance, share blame that---in my opinion---is equal to the airport remaining open....heck the NYT reported that flights continued to dep after the accidental shoot-down. In an instance like what was occurring---chaotic----the intelligent choice would've been for airlines to cease operations & cancel flights & then deduce a "plan" w/ for resumption of flights. The a/c---I'm guessing----flew in prior to Iran's counter-attack upon the US....patience is most advisable "if" your sitting on the ramp @ an airport that just became a hot/potential war zone due to possible US retaliation....or human-error. I don't believe the airlines culpability is "small" in this unfortunate instance. Iran became a "thunderstorm"---you don't fly into a "thunderstorm", thus civilian traffic ought've remained on the ground.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:23 pm

On a side note, BA operated the London- Beirut flight yesterday and then took aircraft and crew to overnight in Larnaca for safety concerns.
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cpd
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:25 pm

RadicalX wrote:
One question:
Shouldn't the operator of the AA first contact and warn the aircraft before taking any action??


**Not political**

Now to your reply, if I’m allowed to. AA I guess means the misfile battery?

I guess they were on such a state of tension/alert and rushed to shoot down what they suspected was an intruder.

With that the talk of them using FR24 earlier also seems like it wouldn’t have done anything for the same reason.
 
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par13del
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:28 pm

cpd wrote:
I guess they were on such a state of tension/alert and rushed to shoot down what they suspected was an intruder.

As the missile battery was this close to a major airport, would we be wrong in assuming they should also have had that in the front of their minds versus a battery that was out in the desert protecting a military airbase?
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Transponder and ADS-B transmitter are not the same. There is always a risk of flying without transponder in conflict zones (or) anywhere, QRF will be on your tail.

Is there a more precise term for the "Transponder" so as not to confuse it with ADS-B?

Do current planes transmit both "Transponder" and ADS-B? Or do they just transmit one or the other?

Does ADS-B only broadcast every few seconds, or is it continuous?
 
airhansa
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:32 pm

cannedtuna wrote:
Regarding disappearance of ADS-B before plane was hit by missile, has cyberattack been ruled out? There are numerous whitepapers that are out there that cite about security concerns regarding ADS-B and how easy it is to exploit it.


It didn't necessarily "disappear" before the missile hit. It is likely that the missile hit within six seconds of the transponder's previous beep - a transponder would provide blips every six seconds.
 
cpd
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:36 pm

par13del wrote:
cpd wrote:
I guess they were on such a state of tension/alert and rushed to shoot down what they suspected was an intruder.

As the missile battery was this close to a major airport, would we be wrong in assuming they should also have had that in the front of their minds versus a battery that was out in the desert protecting a military airbase?


What is going through their minds I don’t know. None of us will as we weren’t there, we can only guess.

They should have exercised more caution, but they didn’t and we are at this point now with little more we can do about it and I guess little chance anything will change.

Can you see the hawks from both sides sitting down together and working to resolve their differences in the aftermath of this incident? No, nor can I, even though I wish they would for the better of everyone. I have to fly through that region later this year... I’m sure my flights will be diverted away from the conflict area but it is still worrying.
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:41 pm

crazy wrote:
And, if i am not wrong, this is the 8th airplane shot down by a missile in about 45 years:

AirlineCritic's post listed 20 shootdown incidents: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438597&p=21924725#p21924725
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:49 pm

flybucky wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Transponder and ADS-B transmitter are not the same. There is always a risk of flying without transponder in conflict zones (or) anywhere, QRF will be on your tail.

Is there a more precise term for the "Transponder" so as not to confuse it with ADS-B?

Do current planes transmit both "Transponder" and ADS-B? Or do they just transmit one or the other?

Does ADS-B only broadcast every few seconds, or is it continuous?


I am sure someone else can explain more authoritatively.

a) Secondary Surveillance Radar Transponder. If this fails it shows up as primary target.
The transponder receives interrogation from the Secondary Surveillance Radar on 1030 MHz and replies on 1090 MHz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aeronautics)

b) ADS-B Out has no quality of service mandate what so ever. It gets location data from other navigation systems and transmits at will. Sure there is a regular interval if possible, but sites like FR24 approximate, predict ahead to show pretty graph.
 
Lootess
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:50 pm

The fact of the matter is the bulldozing of the site without regard to an on-site investigation is a violation of the Chicago convention, along with shooting down a civilization aircraft with a weapon. This is an ironclad UN resolution that every member abides by.
Last edited by Lootess on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:51 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
I respect you, scbriml, I really do, but let's not pretend they weren't putting out BS and going into cover up mode mere hours, maybe even minutes, after the crash. THAT is what we are upset about.


I don't believe I've defended Iran, but equally I haven't demonised them either. Earlier in the thread I said that an accidental shootdown was a distinct possibility and sadly, that's turned out to be the case.

IMHO, what some posters haven't allowed for here is how Iran is structured. It's my understanding that the IRGC operates largely independently of the civilian government. I do not see it as impossible or implausible that the IRGC didn't notify the civilian government until such time as it became painfully clear exactly what happened. It may be that the civilian government knew within minutes, but it's also possible they didn't know for a couple of days. I'm happy to be shown that my 'leniency' towards the Iranian government is misplaced, but it needs to be with facts, not suspicion and feelings.

We see the same things in every crash thread we ever have - misinformation, incorrectly interpreted 'facts', misquotes, incorrect official statements and bad translations. We end up with dozens of conflicting stories - how often have we read of eyewitnesses saying a plane came down in flames, when it never did? And those are the crashes that happen outside what was practically a war zone. We've read in this thread how the Iranian have "bulldozed the site" in an attempt to cover up, only subsequently to have it confirmed that the Ukrainian investigators have access to everything and are happy with the cooperation they're getting from the Iranians.

All those things show how confused everything is in the immediate aftermath of a crash. The sad truth has come out, the Iranians have put their hand up and owned their tragic mistake. Hopefully, we will eventually understand exactly how this terrible event happened and more importantly, learned from it.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:00 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
...
You try to use simple words to deny a “bulldozer” when the world sees a front end loader quickly clearing the site. It’s disingenuous and pollutes this forum.


When you cannot control the scene of crime, you have to do the best with the evidence available. The question one should be asking, was the evidence destroyed. IMHO, it is not and it cannot be. Being fixated on whether each piece is photographed/tagged/bagged or bulldozed or picked up with front end loader, I think doesn't add any value.

Sure if this was in a developed country, entire scene will be cordoned off, residents will be given alternate accommodations, every piece and human remains will be properly collected. We cannot expect the same from every part of the world. That is the reality even when there are no ulterior motives.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:01 pm

scbriml wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I respect you, scbriml, I really do, but let's not pretend they weren't putting out BS and going into cover up mode mere hours, maybe even minutes, after the crash. THAT is what we are upset about.


I don't believe I've defended Iran, but equally I haven't demonised them either. Earlier in the thread I said that an accidental shootdown was a distinct possibility and sadly, that's turned out to be the case.

IMHO, what some posters haven't allowed for here is how Iran is structured. It's my understanding that the IRGC operates largely independently of the civilian government. I do not see it as impossible or implausible that the IRGC didn't notify the civilian government until such time as it became painfully clear exactly what happened. It may be that the civilian government knew within minutes, but it's also possible they didn't know for a couple of days. I'm happy to be shown that my 'leniency' towards the Iranian government is misplaced, but it needs to be with facts, not suspicion and feelings.

We see the same things in every crash thread we ever have - misinformation, incorrectly interpreted 'facts', misquotes, incorrect official statements and bad translations. We end up with dozens of conflicting stories - how often have we read of eyewitnesses saying a plane came down in flames, when it never did? And those are the crashes that happen outside what was practically a war zone. We've read in this thread how the Iranian have "bulldozed the site" in an attempt to cover up, only subsequently to have it confirmed that the Ukrainian investigators have access to everything and are happy with the cooperation they're getting from the Iranians.

All those things show how confused everything is in the immediate aftermath of a crash. The sad truth has come out, the Iranians have put their hand up and owned their tragic mistake. Hopefully, we will eventually understand exactly how this terrible event happened and more importantly, learned from it.

Ok, I gotcha. Structural differences in our countries and they did as well as could be expected.

What I'd say go that is it's still a fault of them... Their structure is screwed up. It's no fault but their own, and if I want to stay objective, I'll judge things the way they should be and not put on kid's gloves

Unfortunately, I doubt this will be the thing to cause any real changes. But regardless, going forward, I'll call things as I see it, whether it's the US, UK, Russia, Iran, China, etc, whether they're a democracy, communist, theocracy, etc

It think we're basically in agreement. I'm happy they admitted, considering Iran is Iran, but objectively, I'm not impressed by them
 
Yonderlust
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:14 pm

The failed chain-of-events that went into the shoot-down....are far more justifiable than what occurred w/ the Vincennes....The USA struck the Gen, Iran struck back....the belief would be that this was an escalating conflict & the US would strike back. Nevertheless very sad....BUT it's an education for younger generations in the US...in Iran the # 290 has the same meaning as 9/11 in the USA. Again....just as a question...all the airlines, in my opinion, that dep Tehran post the Iraq strike are in my estimation culpable....Iran simply kept the airport open & the airlines could decide to fly or not to fly....that seems reckless to me on the part of the airlines. Thanks for your informed response to my original post.[/quote]

I disagree, Iran killed an American and struck back by taking out the general. You make it sound as if the US started the whole thing. And the comparison to 9/11 is just unbelievable.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:17 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Ok, I gotcha. Structural differences in our countries and they did as well as could be expected.

What I'd say go that is it's still a fault of them... Their structure is screwed up. It's no fault but their own, and if I want to stay objective, I'll judge things the way they should be and not put on kid's gloves

Unfortunately, I doubt this will be the thing to cause any real changes. But regardless, going forward, I'll call things as I see it, whether it's the US, UK, Russia, Iran, China, etc, whether they're a democracy, communist, theocracy, etc

It think we're basically in agreement. I'm happy they admitted, considering Iran is Iran, but objectively, I'm not impressed by them


We, in the "civilised West" have to try and accept that things work differently in other countries. I believe Russia was deeply involved in the shooting down of MH17 (the evidence is pretty overwhelming), yet all they've done is shrug their shoulders and say "Nah, nothing to do with us, mate."

I guess everyone is calling things as they see them, but we all see things slightly differently based on our own personal histories and experiences.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ettyus
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:27 pm

Twilight of the Thunder God
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
I do not see it as impossible or implausible that the IRGC didn't notify the civilian government until such time as it became painfully clear exactly what happened. It may be that the civilian government knew within minutes, but it's also possible they didn't know for a couple of days. I'm happy to be shown that my 'leniency' towards the Iranian government is misplaced, but it needs to be with facts, not suspicion and feelings.


"The thing that is clear to us and that we can say with certainty is that this plane was not hit by a missile."

"On Thursday, government spokesman Ali Rabiei accused the US and its allies of 'lying and engaging in psychological warfare' in their speculation over the cause of the accident."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51062369

"Iran has denied the plane was hit by a missile and the head of Iran’s Civil Aviation Organisation said the comments by Mr Trump were 'not logical'. 

Ali Abedzadeh told state television that 'it is not possible' for the aircraft to have been hit by a missile as it would have exploded immediately instead of catching fire for some moments in the air when the pilot tried to return to the airport. He added that the US could be concerned about the fall of Boeing’s shares 'if Iran’s reading of the black boxes’ data prove a technical fault'". 


https://www.ft.com/content/86a31a6c-32d ... a0cae3f0de

The rejection of a missile strike was conclusive by the civilian government. There was no room in these statements to allow for an investigation to run its course; a missile strike was ruled out "with certainty", and anyone who said otherwise was "lying and engaging in psychological warfare".

So, to your point about whether they knew immediately or after a few days, it's really irrelevant. The government strongly asserted their position from the beginning, and that position wasn't "we're still in the process of collecting information". Rather, it was that a missile strike was "not possible". So therein is the lie: they made a definitive claim that they knew the cause of the crash when they either didn't know, or did know and chose to mislead anyway.
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:40 pm

Full video and English transcript of Commander of the Aerospace Force (IRGC) Amir-Ali Hajizadeh press conference. Summary is that they thought there were cruise missiles launched at Iran. The SAM operator could not get a confirmation response from the commander, so he decided to fire at the "cruise missile". He said the Armed Forces and Aviation Organization were quarantined so they could not share info. The plane was on track, it did not deviate before it was shot down. The incorrect statements made by the Aviation Organization (that the plane turned back) were because they were not informed. The Commander took all the blame.

I have to say, I really respect his press conference. He made no excuses or lies (just explained why the mistake happened) and clarified all the past misinformation.

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane

For several times, these systems including the one involved in the incident were notified by the integrated network that cruise missiles have been fired at the country. For a couple of times, they receive reports that ‘the cruise missiles are coming, be prepared’

this air defence unit realizes that there is a target – which it identified as a cruise missile – at a distance of 19 kilometres.

Well at such a situation, he was obliged to contact, get approval. This is where this operator makes the mistake; but at that moment, his communication system was apparently disrupted – whether because of jamming systems or the high traffic. For that reason, he fails to contact [his commanders]. He had 10 seconds to decide; he could hit or not hit [the target]. Under such circumstances, he decides to make that bad decision; he engages, the missile is fired, and the plane is hit at this place.

Before the announcement of the Armed Forces, the country’s Aviation Organization strongly defended [its stance] and insisted no missile had hit the plane, and that the issue was under investigation. I should firstly say they were acting based on their own knowledge; they weren’t aware of this incident. I should clarify when I was informed of the incident on Wednesday morning, I immediately reported it to the country’s officials. They [in turn] told me ‘we have hit a target’.

Upon arrival in Tehran, I found that the General Staff of the Armed Forces has formed an investigation team, and has totally quarantined the team and all those involved in the issue. So we weren’t allowed to say anything to anyone.

Our dear brothers at the Aviation Organization categorically rejected the possibility of a missile hitting the plane; they acted based on what they knew. I must say they were not guilty and have nothing to do with this. All the blame is on us; they’re innocent. The plane was also on its track, it made no mistake. It did the right thing, as did the Aviation Organization. Everyone did the right thing. Only one of our forces made a mistake. Since he is under our command, we are responsible for that. We must be accountable.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:42 pm

Yonderlust wrote:
I disagree, Iran killed an American and struck back by taking out the general. You make it sound as if the US started the whole thing. And the comparison to 9/11 is just unbelievable.

Honestly, when we get this far in, it's time to step back. An airliner was shot down and many died.

It was because Iran shot it down, because they were expecting attacks from America for attacking our bases, because we killed Soleimani, because he led to many American deaths, because we interfered in the region and aren't on good terms because Iran held out embassy hostage, because we overthrew their Shah, etc etc etc.

We can play the blame game but it's so fuzzy no one will admit fault or say they started it.

This is war, shit happens. I'm deeply critical with what Iran did but ultimately, I would accept that it was a tragic flaw and things should've maybe been done different and we'll fix it in the future... Just like with IR655. Unacceptable but understandable, if that makes any sense (hopefully it does or I'll get a lot of flaming)

Because these things happen in war! That's why we should avoid war!

I would think us Americans would have learned that from Iraq. Saddam sucked but sometimes the war to get rid of a dictator leads to more suffering because of the nature of war.

We need to stop this madness. We won't, just based off this, sadly. Many more will die before relations settle down, IMO, unfortunately
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
I do not see it as impossible or implausible that the IRGC didn't notify the civilian government until such time as it became painfully clear exactly what happened. It may be that the civilian government knew within minutes, but it's also possible they didn't know for a couple of days.


This is exactly right. The Commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Amir-Ali Hajizadeh clarified everything in his press conference and took all the blame. The civil aviation was not informed, that's why they were making incorrect conclusions.

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:45 pm

Annotated image from IRGC Commander Amir-Ali Hajizadeh's press conference. It is nearly 100% match from a.netters image: https://i.imgur.com/yE43FPc.png

Image
 
flybucky
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Personally, I think they are still lying about some things: that aircraft tracks straight out on basically the runway heading, and only turns after it has been hit. So the "it turned towards a sensitive location" is just more self-excusing crap.

It turned out Iran's civil aviation org was not given the info from the Iran military, so they were just making their best guess. IRGC Commander's press conference made no excuses: aircraft was on track, nothing about turning towards sensitive location.

From the IRGC Commander's press conference:

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane

Our dear brothers at the Aviation Organization categorically rejected the possibility of a missile hitting the plane; they acted based on what they knew. I must say they were not guilty and have nothing to do with this. All the blame is on us; they’re innocent. The plane was also on its track, it made no mistake. It did the right thing, as did the Aviation Organization. Everyone did the right thing. Only one of our forces made a mistake. Since he is under our command, we are responsible for that. We must be accountable.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:55 pm

Just too many inexcusable events happened here.

1) Shooting down a plane on a routine pattern with normal flight characteristics of a commercial airline. Other commercial aircraft are departing before and after, like an organized air traffic control system. Where is the threat?

2) Mistaken for a cruise missile? Really we are talking about a fairly modern AA system, not flak cannons on the English coast in 1940. Radar signature of a cruise missile versus a 737-800? Really...a trained IRGC AA operator wouldn’t be able to notice a difference? Flight path...the direction of travel would indicate movement from the capital. So what they are shooting at one of their own launched and departing missiles? Nope and this addressing some of the excuses from others here.

3) Heightened alert? Sure, but if it was that heightened then the airspace should have been shut down for commercial activity. If the Iranian was so worried about a US retaliatory strike then why would they allow their airspace to be busy with commercial activity? Honestly too many levels of failure for a simple “whoops.”
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
drajoshi
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:24 pm

Looks like the missile exploded underneath the cockpit, hence no distress communication from pilots.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-51077 ... it-ukraine
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:43 pm

flybucky wrote:
This is exactly right. The Commander of the Aerospace Force of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) Amir-Ali Hajizadeh clarified everything in his press conference and took all the blame. The civil aviation was not informed, that's why they were making incorrect conclusions.

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane


flybucky wrote:
It turned out Iran's civil aviation org was not given the info from the Iran military, so they were just making their best guess. IRGC Commander's press conference made no excuses: aircraft was on track, nothing about turning towards sensitive location.

From the IRGC Commander's press conference:

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane

Really not trying to belabor my point, and this is a very honest admission by the IRGC (a decent one at that.)

BUT.

Absence of information should NOT lead you to DENY things. I can totally buy that these politicians were in the dark, but if they're in the dark, they need to keep their mouths shut instead of denying what very well could have happened.

Leads me to believe that they:

- Actually did know about it and lied

- Didn't know about it and said things they weren't sure of

- Were told INCORRECT things, which would absolve the politicians of blame but would make the IRGC even worse

Either way, doesn't help their credibility. It seems like they were either lying, incompetent, or both
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:03 pm

flybucky wrote:
From the IRGC Commander's press conference:

https://ifpnews.com/irgc-releases-detai ... nian-plane


Brig. Gen. Hajizadeh was fascinating to watch. He just came back from overseeing missile strikes on U.S. troops in Iraq. Given his age, he must clearly remember the USS Vincennes - and he's probably on a sanction list for being a terrorism supporter. But he gives explanations without squirming around.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
kennethP3
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Re: Reports of Ukrainian 737 Crash in Tehran,Iran

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:08 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
We can contrast these numbers of overall commercial aviation accident statistics. In the 2010s (+ Jan 2020) there were 4396 deaths, and 36096 since 1980s. For the last forty years, 4% of all commercial aviation deaths were related to military action. But in the last ten years, 11%!

There's a bit of survivorship bias in play here. If the number of casualties due to "true" accidents goes down, then the proportion of casualties due to other factors will go up. But the overall number is still going down.

It's kind of like saying rates of death by cancer have gone up. Yes, that's technically true... But it's also because all the other things that used to kill you before you could even get cancer aren't as big of a problem anymore.
 
miegapele
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm

Isn't Iran essentially a military dictatorship?
That would explain, why at first It was technical issue, then shot down because plane turned back having too much fuel, until finally military admits real story. Civilians probably can't speak against military without risking life. The same also explain no information sharing.
 
flanker
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:25 pm

This event was an accident, but definitely not accidental shoot down. Point of departure was Tehran, only miles away. No excuses there. Had it crossed into the country it would be a different story.
 
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STT757
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:34 pm

Iranian people not happen about the Government’s cover up over shooting down the airliner.


https://www.newsweek.com/protests-tehra ... ne-1481637


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bikerthai
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:12 pm

One question if someone knows the answer. At the time of the shoot down, is there typically traffic coming through the airport?

I mean one possibility is that the crew manning the battery thought that the last flight out that early hours is done and is not expecting another commercial flight until later.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
kennethP3
Posts: 41
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Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:33 pm

bikerthai wrote:
One question if someone knows the answer. At the time of the shoot down, is there typically traffic coming through the airport?

I mean one possibility is that the crew manning the battery thought that the last flight out that early hours is done and is not expecting another commercial flight until later.

bt

Departures out of IKA that morning:

Lufthansa DLH601 - 02:43a
Turkish Airlines THY875 - 03:35a
Austrian AUA872 - 04:23a
Aeroflot AFL513 - 04:31a
Qatar Airways QTR491 - 05:01a
Turkish Airlines THY873 - 05:07a
AtlasGlobal KKK1185 - 05:17a
Qatar Airways QTR8408 - 05:40a
Ukraine International AUI752 - 06:12a (scheduled 05:15a)
IranAir IRA721 - 07:49a (scheduled 06:20a)
IranAir IRA717 - 07:53a (scheduled 07:30a)
Mahan Air IRM61 - 08:19a (scheduled 08:00a)

There were quite a few flights scheduled to depart at around that time. They ended up being delayed or canceled.

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