Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4282
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine 737

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:13 am

Blankbarcode wrote:
Hopefully you're not lumping in those who were cautious to jump to a conclusion either way, given how dangerous assumptions can be in a politically unstable environment.


One would hope not....

cpd wrote:
That's a strange reason to turn back. Why wouldn't they just fly on to the destination and at least burn off some of the fuel load during the flight instead of returning immediately with a very high amount of fuel onboard?


All else equal, the last thing a crew would do if they discovered they were overweight would be an immediate return for an overweight landing. That's just dramatically increasing your chances of an unsafe outcome to the situation.

tu204 wrote:
With all this info, my question is why was someone filming the night sky on their phone when the missile was fired? We see the entire sequence from launch to detonation.

Not trying to spur any conspiracy theories, but why?


I'm trying to get my head around this also. I could maybe understand if it was during the day where the plane was visible....but during the dark whilst driving along the motorway?? WTH

par13del wrote:
I guess you have not been reading this thread from the start when:
1. A USA IBM hit the a/c
2. Uncontained engine failure caused the GPS failure
3. Uncontained engine failure could produce the results in the videos
4. It was shot down
5. Pilots were busy solving the technical issue that they strayed from flight path resulting in potential missile fire
6. Pilots made a 180 turn without communication with ATC


How dare people keep an open mind and discuss possibilities. There was literally one person discussing ICBMs so why do you try and suggest that everybody was taking that as a leading theory? :roll:

dopplerd wrote:
Now that Iran has claimed responsibility for launching the missile that downed the 737 it is time for the US to disclose any US military assets it had overflying the area.

Yes but don't hold your breath governments are never trustworthy when it comes to disclosing such information. And anyway could have been Israeli or Saudi UAVs in addition to (or instead of?) US ones.


dopplerd wrote:
The tragic mistake of the missile launch does not exist in a vacuum and end with the launch button pusher at the control panel.

Indeed but it seems that this discussion is not the place for nuance nor for the discussion of contributory factors.

Lootess wrote:
Then there was the fact they removed the bodies and bulldozed the site within a day,

This is straightout misinformation. The bulldozer was first reported as being there 48hrs after. Actually clearing the site was later still.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
So the argument that the aircraft was passing or going into a sensitive area doesn't make any sense. Its the Iranian blaming the pilots.

It certainly seems that way.


AirWorthy99 wrote:
This is Iran's version if IR655, using the same arguments the US used for downing that plane.

Well it's contributing factors isn't it. Swiss cheese model and all that.

Daimler wrote:
Also, UIA (plane owner) held a press conference about the crash and how they cooperated with investigation and they made a note on why the plane was delayed - basically there was too much hand and regular baggage registered for this flight, captain made estimations on total plane weight and ordered to remove some of the baggage from the cargo hold:
https://censor.net.ua/news/3169383/zaya ... deniya_mau


Interesting, so that fairly clearly ends speculation of transponder issues or mechanical malfunctions, at least at the time of pushback.

washingtonflyer wrote:
US government paid $61.8 million in 1988 dollars ($134 million in today's dollars). As to acknowledgement into in the incident, it happened within a day...


How many years did they coverup the fact that the Vincennes was in Iranian Waters? Six years!

SVNFSM wrote:
Drones (like the MQ-9 that took out Soleimani) have a ceiling of 50,000 ft. What a coincidence that an American/Israeli/Saudi drone just happened to be in the same vicinity and showed up on radar at that exact same moment deep within Iranian terrtory, right?.


You think that the UAV was only over the Iranian capital for a short space of time? The Global Hawk (which would be a much more appropriate piece of equipment for keeping an eye on Tehran) has a range of more than 24 hours.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
It's all very messy. Mistakes happen. That's why there are precautions, that's why civilians should not be flying through war zones (which Tehran was that night)


I broadly agree with you but unfortunately the lines have been blurred in recent decades. Barely anyone declares war anymore - stealth attacks are the status quo.

In this situation where do you declare "it" to be a warzone and that civilian aircraft should not fly? When the US kills the Iranian General - knowing that retaliation will likely come somewhere, somehow in the future? When Iran retaliates knowing that the US is likely to retaliate back? And where do you declare to be a warzone? UAE because it's seen as an American proxy by the Iranians? Qatar because the US Navy has a big base there? Same looking at Iran - is Tehran a warzone - hundreds and hundreds of kilometres from the Iraqi border? Is Bandar Abbas a warzone because the US is likely to retaliate against Iranian oil infrastructure? Very soon you can end up declaring the whole of the middle east as a potential warzone.

SFOtoORD wrote:
zeke wrote:
Moving the wreckage to a hanger where it can be secured is normal.


Do you have evidence that this is actually what is happening as much as I appreciate the half page of copy and pasted text?


Do you have evidence that the wreckage was dumped/destroyed?

2175301 wrote:
.ICAO did an investigation and confirmed that the US Navy did in fact try to contact IA Flight 655 on both military and civilian frequencies (a total of 10 attempts).


There were two attempts on civilian frequencies and in both cases refered to the flight as "Unidentified Iranian F-14". The flight was identified and was in contact with civilian ATC. Please stop trying to blame the aircrew.

JetBuddy wrote:
The Smolensk Air Disaster in 2010.

Is there any evidence that was intentional?

kennethP3 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
You might ask what they are trying to accomplish shooting unarmed protesters in the streets?

A ruling regime shooting unarmed protesters to maintain power is not unheard of


Unfortunately the powers at be will often take extreme measures to entrench their power. Very sad that political dissent and protest is only available to a relatively small portion of the world's population.

2175301 wrote:
For those looking to show how "ethical" Iran is


2175301 wrote:
At least in "ethical" Iran...


Literally nobody here is calling Iran ethical.

MAH4546 wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
Why does the CCTV footage have a date of 2019-10-17??


Iran does not use the Georgian calendar.


Gregorian calendar ;) but yes, you are correct.

flybucky wrote:
This is believable. The U.S. could have launched a cyberattack on Iran's radar and military communications systems to try to prevent them from launching more missile attacks to Iraq


Maybe but we're never going to know for sure. Iran could have made it up to divert attention from their military's own failings. And it's not as if the US will admit to such a hacking.
First to fly the 787-9
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1208
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:45 am

I know that I don’t see free, well run nations driving bulldozers around a crash site hours after the fact, but sure go ahead posing your question to a question.
 
LEJCargo
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:44 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:11 am

New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:07 am

LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:30 am

zeke wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”


I disagree because ICAO rule are about the State, not the about media leak.
From the few available information actually available, it look like it's not the Ukrainian State but from a Ukrainian media leak.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2563
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:17 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
zeke wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”


I disagree because ICAO rule are about the State, not the about media leak.
From the few available information actually available, it look like it's not the Ukrainian State but from a Ukrainian media leak.


To be fair, the two are often the same. States will leak info to selected press if they want information out. You see it all the time, both in the West and the rest of the world.
 
tu204
Posts: 2168
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:24 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
zeke wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”


I disagree because ICAO rule are about the State, not the about media leak.
From the few available information actually available, it look like it's not the Ukrainian State but from a Ukrainian media leak.


It is more than likely that the media got their hands on this information from the state. As in from the Ukrainian investigator in this investigation. Seems to be the most obvious source considering it was the Ukrainian media that leaked it.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 pm

tu204 wrote:
It is more than likely that the media got their hands on this information from the state. As in from the Ukrainian investigator in this investigation. Seems to be the most obvious source considering it was the Ukrainian media that leaked it.


Exactly, leaking information to the press is circulating it.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident”

Ukraine has been pushing it all the way along, not long after they had boots on the ground they also circulated pictures to the press that their observers took of the wreckage showing the alleged missile penetrations.

The implications of circulating this information is to embarrass/apportion blame the Iranian government. That is not their role as an observer, nor is it the role of the investigation. No state has clean hands, they all at one time or another have killed innocent members of the public.

We as an aviation industry have been irrevocably hurt by these actions. The point of these observers is to add checks and balances into the investigation process for the longer term improvements in aviation safety.

This accident has the potential to be a pivotal moment in aviation safety for for the safe passage of aircraft in conflict zones. If Ukraine continues with this petty political point scoring, it could ruin this opportunity.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:31 pm

zeke wrote:
tu204 wrote:
It is more than likely that the media got their hands on this information from the state. As in from the Ukrainian investigator in this investigation. Seems to be the most obvious source considering it was the Ukrainian media that leaked it.


Exactly, leaking information to the press is circulating it.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident”

Ukraine has been pushing it all the way along, not long after they had boots on the ground they also circulated pictures to the press that their observers took of the wreckage showing the alleged missile penetrations.

The implications of circulating this information is to embarrass/apportion blame the Iranian government. That is not their role as an observer, nor is it the role of the investigation. No state has clean hands, they all at one time or another have killed innocent members of the public.

We as an aviation industry have been irrevocably hurt by these actions. The point of these observers is to add checks and balances into the investigation process for the longer term improvements in aviation safety.

This accident has the potential to be a pivotal moment in aviation safety for for the safe passage of aircraft in conflict zones. If Ukraine continues with this petty political point scoring, it could ruin this opportunity.

ICAO rules was defined to investigate accident, not military action. From the accident perspective it's now clear that neither the pilots nor the towel have any clue about the military action going on, and it look like it would be very difficult to find any mistake done by either the pilots nor the towel. The accident final report, if it will exists, will contain nothing new about the causes, and the only possible recommendations would be about the management of civil flights authorization in area of potentially military operation. But we don't need to wait for this to figure out what's the ICAO and the operators need to improve: cancel any flight above area where air target missiles are in operation.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Boeingphan
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:36 pm

zeke wrote:
tu204 wrote:
It is more than likely that the media got their hands on this information from the state. As in from the Ukrainian investigator in this investigation. Seems to be the most obvious source considering it was the Ukrainian media that leaked it.


Exactly, leaking information to the press is circulating it.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident”

Ukraine has been pushing it all the way along, not long after they had boots on the ground they also circulated pictures to the press that their observers took of the wreckage showing the alleged missile penetrations.

The implications of circulating this information is to embarrass/apportion blame the Iranian government. That is not their role as an observer, nor is it the role of the investigation. No state has clean hands, they all at one time or another have killed innocent members of the public.

We as an aviation industry have been irrevocably hurt by these actions. The point of these observers is to add checks and balances into the investigation process for the longer term improvements in aviation safety.

This accident has the potential to be a pivotal moment in aviation safety for for the safe passage of aircraft in conflict zones. If Ukraine continues with this petty political point scoring, it could ruin this opportunity.

And glad they leaked the pictures so we all knew they shot the aircraft out of the air. I'd imagine you'd feel happy they did the same if you piloted the downed aircraft no??
 
CheckNorris
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:00 pm

But we don't need to wait for this to figure out what's the ICAO and the operators need to improve: cancel any flight above area where air target missiles are in operation.


That's hardly a sustainable option as many major and secondary airports across the globe fall into that category. Some countries have 100% SAM coverage. The solution is to avoid areas with potential for high-intensity conflict.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:02 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
zeke wrote:

I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”


I disagree because ICAO rule are about the State, not the about media leak.
From the few available information actually available, it look like it's not the Ukrainian State but from a Ukrainian media leak.


To be fair, the two are often the same. States will leak info to selected press if they want information out. You see it all the time, both in the West and the rest of the world.

I disagree with that argument. If that media was fully independent, it would have do this too, invoking the freedom of the press. We actually don't know from where there got that audio. But before considering that audio a such offence, please remember it's a record of an open frequency for commercial civil flight operation, something that thousand of peoples are freely listening to every days everywhere. A simple smartphone with an USB SDR is enough to get that audio.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:12 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
ICAO rules was defined to investigate accident, not military action.


Hogwash, Annex 13 is for the investigation of all accidents and incidents of civil register aircraft regardless of how it is caused. The two preliminary reports were compiled under Annex 13.

Annex 13 does not apply to non civil registered aircraft.

Annex 13 has its roots in articles 26 and 36 of the Chicago convention.

“ Article 26
In the event of an accident to an aircraft of a
contracting State occurring in the territory of an- other contracting State, and involving death or serious injury, or indic~tingeerioue technical defect in the aircraft or air navigation facilities, the State in which the ~ccidentoccur8 wi l l institute an inquiry into the circumstances of the accident, In accordance, so far as i t 8 laws permit, with the procedure which may be recommended by the International Civil Aviation Organization.
The State in which the aircraft is registered shall be given the opportunity to appoint observer to be present at the inquiry and the State holding the inquiry shall communicate the report and findings in the matter to that State.”

“Article 37
To this end the International Civil Aviation Organization shall adopt and amend from time to time, as may be necessary, international. standards and rec- ommended practices and procedures dealing with: ........Aircraft in distrees and investigation of accidents”


Boeingphan wrote:
[I'd imagine you'd feel happy they did the same if you piloted the downed aircraft no??


Not at all. What this and the other leaks show is a gross abuse of the invitation and hospitality of Iran to other contracting states.

It demonstrates that Iran has not been hiding the information from other states as it demonstrates that Ukraine had access to the accident site and the data from the investigation.

As I posted above, Iran is not even permitted at this stage under Annex 13 to release that information.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:01 pm

CheckNorris wrote:
But we don't need to wait for this to figure out what's the ICAO and the operators need to improve: cancel any flight above area where air target missiles are in operation.


That's hardly a sustainable option as many major and secondary airports across the globe fall into that category. Some countries have 100% SAM coverage. The solution is to avoid areas with potential for high-intensity conflict.

Please give the list of counties with "100% SAM coverage" with references.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:14 pm

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
ICAO rules was defined to investigate accident, not military action.


Hogwash, Annex 13 is for the investigation of all accidents and incidents of civil register aircraft regardless of how it is caused. The two preliminary reports were compiled under Annex 13.

Annex 13 does not apply to non civil registered aircraft.

Annex 13 has its roots in articles 26 and 36 of the Chicago convention.

“ Article 26
In the event of an accident to an aircraft of a
contracting State occurring in the territory of an- other contracting State, and involving death or serious injury, or indic~tingeerioue technical defect in the aircraft or air navigation facilities, the State in which the ~ccidentoccur8 wi l l institute an inquiry into the circumstances of the accident, In accordance, so far as i t 8 laws permit, with the procedure which may be recommended by the International Civil Aviation Organization.
The State in which the aircraft is registered shall be given the opportunity to appoint observer to be present at the inquiry and the State holding the inquiry shall communicate the report and findings in the matter to that State.”

“Article 37
To this end the International Civil Aviation Organization shall adopt and amend from time to time, as may be necessary, international. standards and rec- ommended practices and procedures dealing with: ........Aircraft in distrees and investigation of accidents”


Boeingphan wrote:
[I'd imagine you'd feel happy they did the same if you piloted the downed aircraft no??


Not at all. What this and the other leaks show is a gross abuse of the invitation and hospitality of Iran to other contracting states.

It demonstrates that Iran has not been hiding the information from other states as it demonstrates that Ukraine had access to the accident site and the data from the investigation.

As I posted above, Iran is not even permitted at this stage under Annex 13 to release that information.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

If you really go forward with that narrow way of thinking, then Iran can exclude sharing any information with any counties as all of them have media that have largely circulating videos and photos with extremely pertinent information about the PS752 killing. Again ICAO was setup to improve commercial civil flight safety, not to investigate military action. The ICAO rules are not appropriate for the PS752 situation and there are abused to cover a military action. It's that simple.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:20 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
CheckNorris wrote:
But we don't need to wait for this to figure out what's the ICAO and the operators need to improve: cancel any flight above area where air target missiles are in operation.


That's hardly a sustainable option as many major and secondary airports across the globe fall into that category. Some countries have 100% SAM coverage. The solution is to avoid areas with potential for high-intensity conflict.

Please give the list of counties with "100% SAM coverage" with references.

I'm not sure with "100%" but there are SAMs EVERYWHERE. It would be absurdly impractical to avoid every SAM site around the world.

Plus, due to the nature of them, their locations aren't exactly disclosed to everyone in the world, and you have mobile SAMs that move around.

Unfortunately, I can not share sources, the SAM coverage I've seen in only a small part of the world isn't exactly something I can just Google (though I'm sure you can probably find a lot there.)

I would suspect on every single international flight you fly on (perhaps many not within the EU, or maybe) you're flying past multiple SAMs
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:30 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
[
If you really go forward with that narrow way of thinking, then Iran can exclude sharing any information with any counties as all of them have media that have largely circulating videos and photos with extremely pertinent information about the PS752 killing. Again ICAO was setup to improve commercial civil flight safety, not to investigate military action. The ICAO rules are not appropriate for the PS752 situation and there are abused to cover a military action. It's that simple.


This again a low quality post, more absolute hogwash.

The Annex 13 rules permit the host country to invite and share information with those observers before the final report is released. The observers get the opportunity to comment on the final report before it is published.

The Annex 13 rules relate to the privileged information that observers have access to that are not in the public domain. These include the CVR, FDR, ATC radar, ATC communications, and forensic examination of the passengers, cargo, and aircraft. Public domain information is not covered by this, that would include FR24, LiveATC, Twitter.

This is a civil registered aircraft, ICAO rules apply. You comments are rubbish, there is no such exception in ICAO for “military action”. If there was you would be quoting it letter and verse. Fact is you are trumping up terms to make yourself sound important, nothing you are posting is actually factual.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CheckNorris
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:11 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Please give the list of counties with "100% SAM coverage" with references.


Israel
Singapore
I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwan too.

As for references, check the effective range of their missile systems vs the size of their territory.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:38 pm

CheckNorris wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Please give the list of counties with "100% SAM coverage" with references.


Israel
Singapore
I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwan too.

As for references, check the effective range of their missile systems vs the size of their territory.


Just anacdotal evidence. Not sure if it is still true.

Back in 1985 I flew in to Cairo Egypt. On approach, I can clearly see fixed SAM installation under the flight path. I recognized the site because it has an area for the fire controll radar and about six branching satellites for the launchers. Mobile launchers will be harder to spot



bt

P.S. just looked at Google. Just to he north east of the airport. I can see some suspicious berms that I suspect could be AA emplacement. Resolution not good enough to confirm whether they are still active. Some have dots at the center and others do not. Could be kind of a shell game to confuse possible attackers.

Heck, to the east of the airport also have a bunch of these berms.
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:23 pm

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
[
If you really go forward with that narrow way of thinking, then Iran can exclude sharing any information with any counties as all of them have media that have largely circulating videos and photos with extremely pertinent information about the PS752 killing. Again ICAO was setup to improve commercial civil flight safety, not to investigate military action. The ICAO rules are not appropriate for the PS752 situation and there are abused to cover a military action. It's that simple.


This again a low quality post, more absolute hogwash.

The Annex 13 rules permit the host country to invite and share information with those observers before the final report is released. The observers get the opportunity to comment on the final report before it is published.

The Annex 13 rules relate to the privileged information that observers have access to that are not in the public domain. These include the CVR, FDR, ATC radar, ATC communications, and forensic examination of the passengers, cargo, and aircraft. Public domain information is not covered by this, that would include FR24, LiveATC, Twitter.

This is a civil registered aircraft, ICAO rules apply. You comments are rubbish, there is no such exception in ICAO for “military action”. If there was you would be quoting it letter and verse. Fact is you are trumping up terms to make yourself sound important, nothing you are posting is actually factual.

It's not rubbish, just a fact: ICAO = International Civil Aviation Organization
ICAO defines the protocols for air accident investigation that are followed by transport safety authorities in countries signatory to the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation.
The medias and the military are absolutely not covered by any ICAO document. From the ICAO point of view, there a simply non-existent.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:41 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
It's not rubbish, just a fact: ICAO = International Civil Aviation Organization
ICAO defines the protocols for air accident investigation that are followed by transport safety authorities in countries signatory to the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation.
The medias and the military are absolutely not covered by any ICAO document. From the ICAO point of view, there a simply non-existent.


It was a civil registered aircraft, registered with an ICAO registration, flown by pilots with ICAO licences, from an ICAO licenced airport, ICAO ATC licences etc etc

Nothing you are posting is factual.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:46 pm

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
ICAO rules was defined to investigate accident, not military action.


Hogwash, Annex 13 is for the investigation of all accidents and incidents of civil register aircraft regardless of how it is caused. The two preliminary reports were compiled under Annex 13.

Annex 13 does not apply to non civil registered aircraft.

Annex 13 has its roots in articles 26 and 36 of the Chicago convention.

“ Article 26
In the event of an accident to an aircraft of a
contracting State occurring in the territory of an- other contracting State, and involving death or serious injury, or indic~tingeerioue technical defect in the aircraft or air navigation facilities, the State in which the ~ccidentoccur8 wi l l institute an inquiry into the circumstances of the accident, In accordance, so far as i t 8 laws permit, with the procedure which may be recommended by the International Civil Aviation Organization.
The State in which the aircraft is registered shall be given the opportunity to appoint observer to be present at the inquiry and the State holding the inquiry shall communicate the report and findings in the matter to that State.”

“Article 37
To this end the International Civil Aviation Organization shall adopt and amend from time to time, as may be necessary, international. standards and rec- ommended practices and procedures dealing with: ........Aircraft in distrees and investigation of accidents”


Boeingphan wrote:
[I'd imagine you'd feel happy they did the same if you piloted the downed aircraft no??


Not at all. What this and the other leaks show is a gross abuse of the invitation and hospitality of Iran to other contracting states.

It demonstrates that Iran has not been hiding the information from other states as it demonstrates that Ukraine had access to the accident site and the data from the investigation.

As I posted above, Iran is not even permitted at this stage under Annex 13 to release that information.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I have read the annex 13, and it appear that the "Non-disclosure of records" is only into the "RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION" chapter. There nothing like this in the "RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY OTHER STATE" chapter.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:49 pm

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
It's not rubbish, just a fact: ICAO = International Civil Aviation Organization
ICAO defines the protocols for air accident investigation that are followed by transport safety authorities in countries signatory to the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation.
The medias and the military are absolutely not covered by any ICAO document. From the ICAO point of view, there a simply non-existent.


It was a civil registered aircraft, registered with an ICAO registration, flown by pilots with ICAO licences, from an ICAO licenced airport, ICAO ATC licences etc etc

Nothing you are posting is factual.

The please post any ICAO document about media and/or military. Yes this was a civil aircraft that was shot down. But ICAO is totally powerless regarding media and military. It's just a real fact.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:02 pm

bikerthai wrote:
CheckNorris wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Please give the list of counties with "100% SAM coverage" with references.


Israel
Singapore
I wouldn't be surprised if Taiwan too.

As for references, check the effective range of their missile systems vs the size of their territory.


Just anacdotal evidence. Not sure if it is still true.

Back in 1985 I flew in to Cairo Egypt. On approach, I can clearly see fixed SAM installation under the flight path. I recognized the site because it has an area for the fire controll radar and about six branching satellites for the launchers. Mobile launchers will be harder to spot



bt

P.S. just looked at Google. Just to he north east of the airport. I can see some suspicious berms that I suspect could be AA emplacement. Resolution not good enough to confirm whether they are still active. Some have dots at the center and others do not. Could be kind of a shell game to confuse possible attackers.

Heck, to the east of the airport also have a bunch of these berms.

I think that the governments that operate those weapons have to take there responsibility. There is nothing normal in allowing civil flights in a area where such insane weapons are in operation.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:06 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
I have read the annex 13, and it appear that the "Non-disclosure of records" is only into the "RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION" chapter. There nothing like this in the "RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY OTHER STATE" chapter.


You continue to post blanket lies, I already posted this earlier today from Annex 13

“RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY STATE

Release of information — Consent

6.2 States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

PixelFlight wrote:
The please post any ICAO document about media and/or military. Yes this was a civil aircraft that was shot down. But ICAO is totally powerless regarding media and military. It's just a real fact.


Ukraine is participating as an observer under Annex 13, the evidence for this is in the preliminary report which has been linked to this thread before.

The fact that the investigation is taken place under Annex 13 is also in the preliminary report.

As an observer they are not permitted to circulate any of the privileged information that is shared with them. I have provided that reference multiple times now. Leaking information to the media is circulating it.

The France, Canada, USA and others are also participating as observers, they are not circulating information in accordance with international agreements.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:10 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
I think that the governments that operate those weapons have to take there responsibility. There is nothing normal in allowing civil flights in a area where such insane weapons are in operation.


How many SAM sites do you think are around cities like IAD, DME, TLV, RUH, it is absolutely normal for them to be there to protect the sovereignty of the airspace.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:53 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
I think that the governments that operate those weapons have to take there responsibility. There is nothing normal in allowing civil flights in a area where such insane weapons are in operation.


Different situation, different times.

In 1985, Egypt was just 12 years after the Yom Kippur war. As I recall, part of the airport was also used by the military (not sure if this is also the case in Iran, but in some countries - AKA Vietnam, there is not enough money to build a separate military airport). So protecting military assets for them was probably more important than the risk of a civilian shoot down.

Heck, during the Vietnam war, both the US and South Vietnamese Airforce flew out of Tan Son Nhat along side all the civilian take offs.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
bhill
Posts: 1794
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 pm

zeke wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”


How then does that square with Iranian STATE media stating it was a "technical issue" VERY shortly after the incident? You cannot have it both ways...the gag agreement applies to ALL parties.
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4513
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:59 pm

zeke wrote:
LEJCargo wrote:
New development: Iran not sharing evidence from airline crash with Ukraine after audio leak: Iran official

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... SKBN1ZX0XM

As far as I understand, audio recording of ATC has been leaked recently, where it is heard that everyone was aware of a shooting down as it happened.

Audio transcript: https://www.unian.info/world/10856315-p ... along.html


I think Iran has every right to act the way they have. It is written in the ICAO Annex 13 Accident investigation procedures which Ukraine was invited to observe the investigation that the release of any information during the investigation can only be done with the consent of the country in charge.

“States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

Under Annex 13 even Iran is not allowed to release that information until the final report.

Non-disclosure of records
5.12 The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation, unless the appropriate authority for the administration of justice in that State determines that their disclosure outweighs the adverse domestic and international impact such action may have on that or any future investigations:
a) all statements taken from persons by the investigation authorities in the course of their investigation;
b) all communications between persons having been involved in the operation of the aircraft;
c) medical or private information regarding persons involved in the accident or incident;
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information.
5.12.1 These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed.”

I know many people want to accuse Iran of acting improperly, they have been conducting the investigation in accordance with Annex 13 from the very start.

The point of any aircraft investigation is to find out what happened, it is never to attribute blame. It is not for political point scoring which seems to be the objective of Ukraine’s leak of information.

From ICAO Annex 13

“ OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION GENERAL

3.1 The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability.”

The difference is that this wasn’t simply any old aircraft accident. This was a shoot down with a f#%king missile! Iran should have nothing to do with the investigation, it should be handled entirely but an independent party.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:06 am

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
I have read the annex 13, and it appear that the "Non-disclosure of records" is only into the "RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION" chapter. There nothing like this in the "RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY OTHER STATE" chapter.


You continue to post blanket lies, I already posted this earlier today from Annex 13

“RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY STATE

Release of information — Consent

6.2 States shall not circulate, publish or give access to a draft report or any part thereof, or any documents obtained during an investigation of an accident or incident, without the express consent of the State which conducted the investigation, unless such reports or documents have already been published or released by that latter State.”

It's not a lie, the quote you take is in the CHAPTER 6. FINAL REPORT and is about documents. My quote is in the CHAPTER 5. INVESTIGATION and is the only one about "cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings". In the chapter 5 this is only the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION. There is no provision for the RESPONSIBILITY OF ANY OTHER STATE in the chapter 5. You can verify by yourself.

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
The please post any ICAO document about media and/or military. Yes this was a civil aircraft that was shot down. But ICAO is totally powerless regarding media and military. It's just a real fact.


Ukraine is participating as an observer under Annex 13, the evidence for this is in the preliminary report which has been linked to this thread before.

The fact that the investigation is taken place under Annex 13 is also in the preliminary report.

As an observer they are not permitted to circulate any of the privileged information that is shared with them. I have provided that reference multiple times now. Leaking information to the media is circulating it.

The France, Canada, USA and others are also participating as observers, they are not circulating information in accordance with international agreements.

You do not find anything, because there is nothing. The ICAO is not a magic solution to any crash, and definitively not in case of military action and/or media leak.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:16 am

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
I think that the governments that operate those weapons have to take there responsibility. There is nothing normal in allowing civil flights in a area where such insane weapons are in operation.


How many SAM sites do you think are around cities like IAD, DME, TLV, RUH, it is absolutely normal for them to be there to protect the sovereignty of the airspace.

Against commercial civil aircraft ? No.

I am absolutely against a world mixing commercial civil flights and air target missile weapons in operation. If a state is so afraid of an imminent attack, it should immediately close his airspace for the time when the air target missile weapons are operating. There is actually nothing obligating any state to do so, and it's a big problem.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
mrgrtt123
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:09 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:24 am

OMG, 176 people were dead because of it, and the reason is human error that is crazy.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:25 am

bhill wrote:

How then does that square with Iranian STATE media stating it was a "technical issue" VERY shortly after the incident? You cannot have it both ways...the gag agreement applies to ALL parties.


As I mentioned earlier, Annex 13 prevents privileged information from being released. Public domain information which will include statements from the CAO.IR. At the time they made those comments before the investigation had even started they were just guess like everyone else. All they had was an aircraft that appeared to be returning to the airport for u known reasons.

When the investigators released V1 of their preliminary report, they said the aircraft was shot down, when the released V2, it included the type of missile.

Public domain does not include controlled access to the aircraft remains, like when a Ukraine took photos of various using forensic measuring templates and then circulating them to the press. That also go to the ATC recordings, they are not public domain.

We know CAO.IR is having difficulty reading the CVR and FDR, and wanted ten BEA to do the read out. Can you imagine they reluctance to release the recorders now to be read because one state thought thought they did not need to abide by the agreements.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
2175301
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:38 am

zeke wrote:
bhill wrote:

How then does that square with Iranian STATE media stating it was a "technical issue" VERY shortly after the incident? You cannot have it both ways...the gag agreement applies to ALL parties.


As I mentioned earlier, Annex 13 prevents privileged information from being released. Public domain information which will include statements from the CAO.IR. At the time they made those comments before the investigation had even started they were just guess like everyone else. All they had was an aircraft that appeared to be returning to the airport for u known reasons.

When the investigators released V1 of their preliminary report, they said the aircraft was shot down, when the released V2, it included the type of missile.

Public domain does not include controlled access to the aircraft remains, like when a Ukraine took photos of various using forensic measuring templates and then circulating them to the press. That also go to the ATC recordings, they are not public domain.

We know CAO.IR is having difficulty reading the CVR and FDR, and wanted ten BEA to do the read out. Can you imagine they reluctance to release the recorders now to be read because one state thought thought they did not need to abide by the agreements.



I agree with Zeke that people participating in the investigation cannot release any information without the approval of the appropriate authorities.

However; the Reuters article says the communication was "intercepted." Not that this was from Tower Tapes or CVR tapes.

If the source of the information is just someone listening into air traffic conversations then it in my opinion release of the information by said parties is not restricted by Annex 13. Likewise the various camera videos were from independent 3rd parties and are not bound by Annex 13.

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:45 am

PixelFlight wrote:
Against commercial civil aircraft ? No.


Yes against any aircraft, you fly over the wrong places of Washington you will be intercepted and then shot down.

https://theweek.com/articles/549964/fut ... by-postman
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:52 am

2175301 wrote:

However; the Reuters article says the communication was "intercepted." Not that this was from Tower Tapes or CVR tapes.

If the source of the information is just someone listening into air traffic conversations then it in my opinion release of the information by said parties is not restricted by Annex 13.


The information appears to be the CVR of another aircraft flying in the area at the time, you can hear the audio yourself, https://youtu.be/wQhV3cFkgwQ

pilots seems to be getting the ATIS as well as discussing the events as well as the ATC.

Like I said above if this was LiveATC, FR24 etc fair game as it is already in the public, CVR information is not public domain.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5578
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:59 am

The record of P-56 violations would tend to put doubt on being shot down. Not to mention the idiot who crashed a Cessna 150 on the White House lawn. Nowadays, intercepted, yes, shot down only in extremis.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:14 am

zeke wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Against commercial civil aircraft ? No.


Yes against any aircraft, you fly over the wrong places of Washington you will be intercepted and then shot down.

https://theweek.com/articles/549964/fut ... by-postman

1) That area is clearly announced as restricted: https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_1_1155.html ( See the map https://fr.flightaware.com/live/airport/KDCA )
2) The USA have learn the hard way to close airspace in case of security issue. ( 9/11 )
3) The first part of the plan is to intercept and to identify. ( Not to fire a missile on a aircraft broadcasting identification and responding to ATC )
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
2175301
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:15 am

zeke wrote:
2175301 wrote:

However; the Reuters article says the communication was "intercepted." Not that this was from Tower Tapes or CVR tapes.

If the source of the information is just someone listening into air traffic conversations then it in my opinion release of the information by said parties is not restricted by Annex 13.


The information appears to be the CVR of another aircraft flying in the area at the time, you can hear the audio yourself, https://youtu.be/wQhV3cFkgwQ

pilots seems to be getting the ATIS as well as discussing the events as well as the ATC.

Like I said above if this was LiveATC, FR24 etc fair game as it is already in the public, CVR information is not public domain.


Perhaps from a privileged CVR. Perhaps not.

The other question is if this was leaked from the investigation team... who (and which nation) did the leaking?

A lot here is far from clear... except that the control tower knew there was a report of a missile and air explosion coincident with the time and approximate location of the Flight 752 crash. I find in extremely unlikely that that information was not reported to the Iran Civil Authorities quickly, and the Tower Tapes could have been reviewed within an hour or so. Which in my opinion does not look good for Iran's credibility given the statements they made for days...

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:08 am

PixelFlight wrote:
1) That area is clearly announced as restricted: https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_1_1155.html ( See the map https://fr.flightaware.com/live/airport/KDCA )
2) The USA have learn the hard way to close airspace in case of security issue. ( 9/11 )
3) The first part of the plan is to intercept and to identify. ( Not to fire a missile on a aircraft broadcasting identification and responding to ATC )


Well if your so convinced nothing will happen, do the experiment for us and fly and aircraft there.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:13 am

2175301 wrote:
Perhaps from a privileged CVR. Perhaps not.


It was the CVR of a Iranian registered airliner.

2175301 wrote:
The other question is if this was leaked from the investigation team... who (and which nation) did the leaking?


The CAO.IR would have got the CVR from the aircraft that made the observation, only those with the CAO.IR access would be in a position to leak it.


2175301 wrote:
A lot here is far from clear... except that the control tower knew there was a report of a missile and air explosion coincident with the time and approximate location of the Flight 752 crash.


I don’t agree with the translation provided, and it is clear to me that the audio file has been altered as the ATIS information which is being received in the background is disjointed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:30 am

zeke wrote:
2175301 wrote:
Perhaps from a privileged CVR. Perhaps not.

It was the CVR of a Iranian registered airliner.

On 23 January, the TSB announced that they had been invited by Iran to help with the flight recorders.
So this could suggest that the TSB did download the CVR form EP3768.

Or that someone was recording that frequency. For example, the tower should have exactly the same information already in there own recorder.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:32 pm

We should get off this discussion on whether the leak of the audio transmission was a violation of any CAO agreement. Whether Ukraine or Iran violated any CAO agreement is moot. The perceived premise is that Ukraine was frustrated by the Iranian lack of cooperation and Ukraine own historical experience with the Malaysian airline shoot down, and decades of experience of living under a totalitarian state where miss-information from the government is not unheard off. I can understand why the information was leaked. It was a political move, a reaction to a political move . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:07 pm

bikerthai wrote:
The perceived premise is that Ukraine was frustrated by the Iranian lack of cooperation and Ukraine own historical experience with the Malaysian airline shoot down, and decades of experience of living under a totalitarian state where miss-information from the government is not unheard off. I can understand why the information was leaked. It was a political move, a reaction to a political move . . .

bt


Perceptions aside, Iran did allow Ukraine to land an IL76 with their go team not long after the accident, Iran gave Ukrainian investigators had access to the crash site, Ukraine photographed it, then distributed the photos to the press. Iran gave them access to the other CVR data.

Now it is evident that Iran has been sharing other information with Ukraine, instead of playing the long game Ukraine leaked information to the media.

These leaks are soon forgotten, however as a result of the persistent leaks Ukraine has now been removed from the investigation. Now they dont get any access to the investigation data.

“Iran has ceased co-operation with Ukraine in its investigation into the downing of Ukrainian passenger jet PS752 by Iranian missiles last month.

It comes after leaked remarks suggested Iran knew immediately that it had struck the plane.”

From https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51356626
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
2175301
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:27 pm

I am awaiting evidence that Ukraine leaked the information. An acquisition by Iran is not much evidence; especially, based on their known "statements" which were up front not plausible, and then demonstrated to be false.

As for the Iran military stance that they knew very quickly; but had to investigate why it happened 1st before telling anyone... I my opinion: Laughable; and they were trying to cover it up - only admitting it after it was clear that they had no real choice. As a direct comparison: USS Vincennes incident was quickly admitted by the US Government (Statement issued by President Regan); and the investigation as to why was started at that time.

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:26 pm

2175301 wrote:
I am awaiting evidence that Ukraine leaked the information.


There are numerous press reports that state both Iran and Ukraine agree the audio is authentic, and that Ukraine was given the information as part of the investigation.

For example

“On Monday, Ukrainian and Iranian authorities both confirmed the authenticity of the Persian-language recording and said it was shared with Ukraine as part of the investigation of the crash.

“The recordings were part of the documents handed over to Ukrainian authorities,” the director in charge of accident investigations at Iran’s Civil Aviation Organization, Hassan Rezaifar, was quoted as saying.

“According to national and international regulations, they are classified documents, and the decision to publish them is surprising,” he said, according to Iran’s Mehr News Agency. “So we are not going to continue to provide them with documents.”

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html

2175301 wrote:
As a direct comparison: USS Vincennes incident was quickly admitted by the US Government (Statement issued by President Regan); and the investigation as to why was started at that time.


To keep this in perspective, the US shot that aircraft down around 2am US central time on July 3, 1988 (around 10:30 am in Iran). It wasn’t until July 6 central time we learned that US admitted it shot it down by accident by sending a diplomatic note to Iran.

PS752 was shot down in the evening of January 8, in 11 January, the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps said they had shot down the aircraft.

The time frames taking ownership between the two events are very similar, I don’t see any moral high ground on either side.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 3337
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:33 pm

I agree with Zeke in the opinion that the Ukrainian released the info on purpose and confirmed the information was correct on purpose as a political statement. If it's just frustration and if they wanted to cover their tracks, then the Ukrainian would have just released the information, then deflect any questions saying "we can neither confirm, nor deny that the information is correct" thus not burning the bridge to the Iranians. They burned their bridge and expect that the consequense was moot. But maybe I'm just giving them too much credit.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 984
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
I agree with Zeke in the opinion that the Ukrainian released the info on purpose and confirmed the information was correct on purpose as a political statement. If it's just frustration and if they wanted to cover their tracks, then the Ukrainian would have just released the information, then deflect any questions saying "we can neither confirm, nor deny that the information is correct" thus not burning the bridge to the Iranians. They burned their bridge and expect that the consequense was moot. But maybe I'm just giving them too much credit.

bt

A simpler scenario: PRESS got hold of something, and ran away with it. They do this kind of thing for a living. UNIAN is a press house, plain and simple. Their relevance is with the level and quality of information they publish. They probably don't even understand they burned their source and harmed their country, in the process.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
2175301
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:17 pm

zeke wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I am awaiting evidence that Ukraine leaked the information.


There are numerous press reports that state both Iran and Ukraine agree the audio is authentic, and that Ukraine was given the information as part of the investigation.

For example

“On Monday, Ukrainian and Iranian authorities both confirmed the authenticity of the Persian-language recording and said it was shared with Ukraine as part of the investigation of the crash.

“The recordings were part of the documents handed over to Ukrainian authorities,” the director in charge of accident investigations at Iran’s Civil Aviation Organization, Hassan Rezaifar, was quoted as saying.

“According to national and international regulations, they are classified documents, and the decision to publish them is surprising,” he said, according to Iran’s Mehr News Agency. “So we are not going to continue to provide them with documents.”

From https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mi ... story.html



That is not proof that Ukraine is the country that leaked it. Just proof that Ukraine had access. Who else had access, and what might their motivations or even internet security be?

Normally you are better at seeing the differences. Given how devastating this event is to Iran... Now it is speculation on my part; but I would not be surprised if Iran leaked it just so they could 1) Ban the Ukrainians, 2) Gain sympathy.

I'm aware of certain things related to the nuclear compliance inspections and claims and counter claims. Iran has done similar things to my speculation before.

Giving the series of statements by Iran on this event I will be honest with you: I don't trust the Iranian Officials at all on this. Not a bit.

Now I have several Iranian friends. I trust them because I have worked with them and built a relationship where there has never been any falsehoods. They also have zero trust in anything their government says.

zeke wrote:
2175301 wrote:
As a direct comparison: USS Vincennes incident was quickly admitted by the US Government (Statement issued by President Regan); and the investigation as to why was started at that time.


To keep this in perspective, the US shot that aircraft down around 2am US central time on July 3, 1988 (around 10:30 am in Iran). It wasn’t until July 6 central time we learned that US admitted it shot it down by accident by sending a diplomatic note to Iran.

PS752 was shot down in the evening of January 8, in 11 January, the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps said they had shot down the aircraft.

The time frames taking ownership between the two events are very similar, I don’t see any moral high ground on either side.


Your wrong factually: The statement by President Regan admitting that the US shot Flight 655 down was published in the July 4 newspapers in the USA; explicity in the NY Times, and President Regan's statement was buried in a longer article in the Washington Post.

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/04/worl ... ement.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/i ... 8crash.htm

Both papers publish in the very early AM so the Statements admitting responsibility had to have been made on July 3 in the USA (Newspaper content is usually frozen before midnight of the day before; and the presses are running by 2AM).

Given that both of these links and the have previously been published in this tread with the July 4 date stated for the admission by the USA... It surprises me that you missed them... I'm not sure where you got the concept of July 6 from.

Have a great day,
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Iran admits to accidentally shooting down Ukraine Flight 752

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm

2175301 wrote:

Given that both of these links and the have previously been published in this tread with the July 4 date stated for the admission by the USA... It surprises me that you missed them... I'm not sure where you got the concept of July 6 from.

Have a great day,

Furthermore, the US wasn't BSing and trying to cover it up and lying after the shootdown.

Not to say the US is the champion of morality (this was in the wake of the tragedy of shooting down a civilian aircraft) but it was definitely handled a lot better than Iran, at least in the first few days

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos