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chrisp390
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Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:42 pm

At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:57 pm

In my opinion now more than ever has the MAX issue made Boeing more resolved to create the NMA !
 
chiad
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:06 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


Yawn ...
He's been saying that for months .. if not years.
I'm sure DL will place and order eventually ... when Boeing launches it ... eventually.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:13 pm

chiad wrote:
Yawn ...
He's been saying that for months .. if not years.
I'm sure DL will place and order eventually ... when Boeing launches it ... eventually.


It's just a negotiating tactic - he's after better pricing on A321XLRs. After all, a.net experts have told us DL will never order another Boeing! :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Stitch
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:13 pm

I personally do not believe NMA will launch - at least in the small, widebody configuration we have heard of.

After the financial bath Boeing Commercial has taken over the MAX grounding, I do not see the Board of Directors giving Authority to Offer.

I believe the next "new" airplane program to launch will be NSA (New Small Airplane) / Y1( Yellowstone1) / 737 Replacement Study and the largest model of that airframe will probably reach 240 seats and fill the role for NMA (either short-range at full payload or longer-range at reduced payload ala the A321XLR).
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:45 pm

Without some magic and/or deep, deep discounts from Boeing, many people simply don’t see Delta buying a new Boeing jet in the near-medium term.

DL has bought the Airbus alternative to every new jet in Boeing’s product stack. Their 757s can easily be replaced by A321s. And it’s doubtful that their 767s can’t be replaced by a combo of A330neos and more frequent A321s.

Boeing has also no right to launch a new airliner program without cleaning house. Their civilian and military programs are currently a mess. The NMA as it is would be a niche aircraft (any other airlines besides the US3 that have even expressed interest in the hypothetical jet?)
 
reltney
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:52 pm

All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. This will be quite the windfall for whoever gets the contract. The 757 with the GTF seems to have traction except for cost and all that was unofficial chat.

Grabbing popcorn.....waiting....
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ethernal
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:15 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
Without some magic and/or deep, deep discounts from Boeing, many people simply don’t see Delta buying a new Boeing jet in the near-medium term.

DL has bought the Airbus alternative to every new jet in Boeing’s product stack. Their 757s can easily be replaced by A321s. And it’s doubtful that their 767s can’t be replaced by a combo of A330neos and more frequent A321s.

Boeing has also no right to launch a new airliner program without cleaning house. Their civilian and military programs are currently a mess. The NMA as it is would be a niche aircraft (any other airlines besides the US3 that have even expressed interest in the hypothetical jet?)



Agree that Delta's backup plan is A339 - worst case they could just drop it in as a replacement. The XLR might help JFK-Secondary Europe, but the XLR deosn't do much for ATL-Secondary Europe (and, depending on how much you wanted to push the XLR from an ops perspective, some South American routes).

ATL-GIG, GRU, SCL, EZE, MXP, VCE, FRA, MUC, and STR are all routes flown exclusively or primarily on 767-300s (EZE may be more frequent with an A330) with no feed on the other side. While these routes could of course be operated by an A330, the step up from a 763 to a 339 is pretty significant and could create yield pressures.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:17 am

Ed is a great marketer.
@DadCelo
 
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Aesma
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:22 am

There is no point to NMA, it's not like airlines can order something else. There is a lot of point to have something to replace the 737 MAX, on the other hand.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:25 am

chrisp390 wrote:
At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


The relevant exchange is found in the linked video between 3:25 and 4:45.

I think you're reading too much into this wrt NMA. He's speaking generally of Boeing launching 'new technologies for the new aircraft we're waiting to order.' Could be MAXs, 787s, NMA, 777X... The aircraft isn't definite. The time frame isn't definite.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:10 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


The relevant exchange is found in the linked video between 3:25 and 4:45.

I think you're reading too much into this wrt NMA. He's speaking generally of Boeing launching 'new technologies for the new aircraft we're waiting to order.' Could be MAXs, 787s, NMA, 777X... The aircraft isn't definite. The time frame isn't definite.


I agree it was not definite, however based on Delta stating they wanted to be the NMA launch customer before I believe it points to that. The 777X they could have ordered already (plus it is too big for them), the 787 has been on sale a long time and they already have a long deferred order if I’m correct, and the MAX I don’t believe it is that because they were talking about that plane on the interview. The way he spoke about it seemed like it was something else.

If Boeing has shelved the NMA Delta would know and he would not have said that, hence me thinking it may still be launched post the MAX issues.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:16 am

Stitch wrote:
I personally do not believe NMA will launch - at least in the small, widebody configuration we have heard of.

After the financial bath Boeing Commercial has taken over the MAX grounding, I do not see the Board of Directors giving Authority to Offer.

I believe the next "new" airplane program to launch will be NSA (New Small Airplane) / Y1( Yellowstone1) / 737 Replacement Study and the largest model of that airframe will probably reach 240 seats and fill the role for NMA (either short-range at full payload or longer-range at reduced payload ala the A321XLR).


I have a hunch that the next plane will be a 737 replacement, but the smallest model will be slightly larger than the current Max 8. The largest model being a bit bigger than the 321XLR (its time to reduce the baggage behind the A321). There will be a small gap between the 195E2 and the smallest model, but the A220-300 can keep that tiny market segment.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:22 am

Delta will need to replace a lot of aircraft between the A220 and the A321 in the next 10-15 years. If the new Boeing Aircraft fits there they will order it if the price is right. Boeing will also need to launch a 737 replacement and better sooner than later. So a perfect match.
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:53 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
I have a hunch that the next plane will be a 737 replacement, but the smallest model will be slightly larger than the current Max 8. The largest model being a bit bigger than the 321XLR (its time to reduce the baggage behind the A321). There will be a small gap between the 195E2 and the smallest model, but the A220-300 can keep that tiny market segment.


WN still has over 500 737-700's in its fleet, and WN still needs some more planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8 (in addition to the 30 737 MAX 7 planes already on order) to replace 737-700's.

The successor to the Boeing 737 MAX also probably needs a variant smaller than the 737-800 in order to address the replacement needs of carriers such as WN that need to replace 737-700 aircraft.
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:58 am

jplatts wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
I have a hunch that the next plane will be a 737 replacement, but the smallest model will be slightly larger than the current Max 8. The largest model being a bit bigger than the 321XLR (its time to reduce the baggage behind the A321). There will be a small gap between the 195E2 and the smallest model, but the A220-300 can keep that tiny market segment.


WN still has over 500 737-700's in its fleet, and WN still needs some more planes smaller than the 737-800 and 737 MAX 8 (in addition to the 30 737 MAX 7 planes already on order) to replace 737-700's.

The successor to the Boeing 737 MAX also probably needs a variant smaller than the 737-800 in order to address the replacement needs of carriers such as WN that need to replace 737-700 aircraft.


That’s true, but outside of them who would be wanting a similar aircraft? If the CASM is much less for an A220, why not select the right aircraft for the market. I guess it all depends on where WN sees itself in 10-15 years.
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:22 am

And I'm waiting for a tuna sandwich from Burger King.

An NSA with 757 specs (range and capacity at least) alongside a 767NG combo and there you have it. NMA would've been great if it weren't for the max fiasco (and more).
 
SoEWR
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:27 am

Anybody know why Delta hasn’t ordered a Boeing plane in a long time. It seems like all of their new buys have been Airbus planes.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:31 am

SoEWR wrote:
Anybody know why Delta hasn’t ordered a Boeing plane in a long time. It seems like all of their new buys have been Airbus planes.



Delta just recently received the last of a 130 aircraft order for 737-900ER aircraft. It hasn't been that long.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:36 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
That’s true, but outside of them who would be wanting a similar aircraft? If the CASM is much less for an A220, why not select the right aircraft for the market. I guess it all depends on where WN sees itself in 10-15 years.


AA might need some narrowbody aircraft larger than regional jets but smaller than the A320, 737-800, or 737 MAX 8 in order to replace A319's with AA currently having 133 A319's in its fleet.

DL still has 717's, A319's, and 737-700's that still need to be replaced, but DL will likely order additional A220 planes to replace its 717's, A319's, and 737-700's.

While UA doesn't currently have the A220, A319neo, or 737 MAX 7 on order, UA might have a need for planes smaller than the 737-800 in order to replace A319's and 737-700's with UA currently having 81 A319's and 41 737-700's in its fleet.

WS probably has a need for some planes smaller than the 737-800 in order to replace some 737-600 and 737-700 planes, but WS already has 22 737 MAX 7's on order.

AA, UA, and WS would probably be the airlines other than WN who would want a 737 MAX successor variant that is similar in size to the 737-700 as all three of these carriers (as previously mentioned) still have a significant amount of A319 and/or 737-700 planes in their fleets.
 
SoEWR
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:41 am

B757Forever wrote:
SoEWR wrote:
Anybody know why Delta hasn’t ordered a Boeing plane in a long time. It seems like all of their new buys have been Airbus planes.



Delta just recently received the last of a 130 aircraft order for 737-900ER aircraft. It hasn't been that long.


I should’ve said new orders, Delta didn’t order the 787 or 737 Max.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:58 am

jplatts : would Boeing make a plane just for US airlines ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
speedbird52
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:04 am

How attractive would a lower MTOW A330-800 be to airlines? Perhaps with no center tanks?
 
VV
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:45 am

speedbird52 wrote:
How attractive would a lower MTOW A330-800 be to airlines? Perhaps with no center tanks?


Would a lower MTOW make the aircraft lighter?
 
Max Q
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:58 am

NMA is toast


Boeing dithered too long and Airbus totally outmaneuvered them

You can’t get narrowbody economics from a widebody,
that’s never going to change

Boeing has a real dilemma throughout its product line, other than the 787


It’s too early to develop a clean sheet 737 replacement, not enough technological and efficiency gains available to make it economic, a whole new generation of engines is needed at a minimum


They have no true 757 successor, not sure if a re-engined 767 will sell


Finally the 777-8/9 is not the leap it should have been, they should have gone all composite so not sure if it’s economics will be compelling compared to the A350-1000



What Boeing really needs is a clean sheet replacement for their entire product line except for but based on the 787
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:11 am

Max Q wrote:
NMA is toast


Boeing dithered too long and Airbus totally outmaneuvered them

You can’t get narrowbody economics from a widebody,
that’s never going to change

Boeing has a real dilemma throughout its product line, other than the 787


It’s too early to develop a clean sheet 737 replacement, not enough technological and efficiency gains available to make it economic, a whole new generation of engines is needed at a minimum


They have no true 757 successor, not sure if a re-engined 767 will sell


Finally the 777-8/9 is not the leap it should have been, they should have gone all composite so not sure if it’s economics will be compelling compared to the A350-1000



What Boeing really needs is a clean sheet replacement for their entire product line except for but based on the 787


I could see a potential re-engine of the 767 on leases as a low cost interim solution. They would be very attractive to cargo operators once the passenger airline gets the NMA/NSA. It would be cost efficient and not a throw-away interim solution. I don't think DL could profitability run A330neos on routes like TPA-AMS, SLC-CDG, ATL-STR, etc. The A339 is too much capacity for those routes and the A338 is just too heavy since it's a shrink.
 
jghealey
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:16 am

jplatts wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
That’s true, but outside of them who would be wanting a similar aircraft? If the CASM is much less for an A220, why not select the right aircraft for the market. I guess it all depends on where WN sees itself in 10-15 years.


AA might need some narrowbody aircraft larger than regional jets but smaller than the A320, 737-800, or 737 MAX 8 in order to replace A319's with AA currently having 133 A319's in its fleet.

DL still has 717's, A319's, and 737-700's that still need to be replaced, but DL will likely order additional A220 planes to replace its 717's, A319's, and 737-700's.

While UA doesn't currently have the A220, A319neo, or 737 MAX 7 on order, UA might have a need for planes smaller than the 737-800 in order to replace A319's and 737-700's with UA currently having 81 A319's and 41 737-700's in its fleet.

WS probably has a need for some planes smaller than the 737-800 in order to replace some 737-600 and 737-700 planes, but WS already has 22 737 MAX 7's on order.

AA, UA, and WS would probably be the airlines other than WN who would want a 737 MAX successor variant that is similar in size to the 737-700 as all three of these carriers (as previously mentioned) still have a significant amount of A319 and/or 737-700 planes in their fleets.

Both UA and AA are actively buying used A319s... I don't think they're going anytime soon. UA for instance is buying several EasyJet and China Southern ones. Many of AA's are actually under 6years old (even with sharklets) as well so no immediate need for them to be replaced.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:17 am

reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. This will be quite the windfall for whoever gets the contract. The 757 with the GTF seems to have traction except for cost and all that was unofficial chat.

Grabbing popcorn.....waiting....


Thank you for restating two of the most annoying Anet-myths:

1. Airbus only sells because they are cheaper and have lower product quality.

2. The A321 still can´t do what the 757 can.

#Next
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:20 am

speedbird52 wrote:
How attractive would a lower MTOW A330-800 be to airlines?

Not very at all, for the purpose of the market segment we're speaking of.

Reduced TOW A330s with no center tank have been available since the mid '90s.... not exactly a new concept. If they wanted that, they could've gotten it a long time ago.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 am

Airbus did a great job in attacking the NMA business case with the A321XLR. Great timing also.
Caravelle lover
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:38 am

scbriml wrote:
chiad wrote:
Yawn ...
He's been saying that for months .. if not years.
I'm sure DL will place and order eventually ... when Boeing launches it ... eventually.


It's just a negotiating tactic - he's after better pricing on A321XLRs. After all, a.net experts have told us DL will never order another Boeing! :wink2:


Are they also the same experts who claimed that United Airlines would never order a brand new Airbus again? :lol:
 
Strato2
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:41 am

reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:47 am

Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:51 am

LaunchDetected wrote:
Airbus did a great job in attacking the NMA business case with the A321XLR. Great timing also.



correct, and now nobody is waiting for the NMA anymore, the business case is dead!
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?


Common knowledge, just look it up.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:59 am

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?


Common knowledge, just look it up.


No, it isn't. The sky is blue is common knowledge. Trump is the US president is common knowledge. Those are things you would expect anyone you talk to to know. Knowledge of the 757 vs A321 is not something the average person would have any clue about.

The nasty remarks are very saddening. How can you call yourself a fan of aviation but celebrate that a new aircraft may not be built?
 
marcelh
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:00 am

LAX772LR wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
How attractive would a lower MTOW A330-800 be to airlines?

Not very at all, for the purpose of the market segment we're speaking of.

Reduced TOW A330s with no center tank have been available since the mid '90s.... not exactly a new concept. If they wanted that, they could've gotten it a long time ago.


They could, but it wasn't needed. With already a big fleet of A330-900s, a "regional" A330-800 might be "the next best" solution as a replecement for some routes currently flown with the 767-300ER.
 
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ClipperMonsoon
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:04 am

Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.

Only if it comes equipped with the famous 90 degree nose gear on landing :/
"Never mistake persistence for intelligence"
Random Person
 
Armodeen
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:06 am

Oh god are we going to have this discussion again. It’s like a net Groundhog Day.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:26 am

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?


Common knowledge, just look it up.


Burden of proof is on you if such statements are made. Citations or you’re just pulling stuff out of thin air.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:43 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Cite?


Common knowledge, just look it up.


Burden of proof is on you if such statements are made. Citations or you’re just pulling stuff out of thin air.



many examples mate:
https://simpleflying.com/the-airbus-a32 ... e-is-best/
https://crankyflier.com/2019/06/24/the- ... placement/


American has whittled down its fleet of 757s dramatically since the US Airways merger. That process continues this fall when it will be replaced in the Hawai’i market entirely with A321neos. That leaves the fleet mostly focused on East Coast to Europe and Miami to Latin America. Some of these are new 757s, but “new” means they’re 17+ years old. American has been waiting for a replacement.

Enter the A321XLR. This airplane is, of course, just an A321neo but with much longer legs. It has a published range of 4,700nm. While it likely won’t be that good in practice, it will still beat the 757 handily.

American wasted no time and quickly ordered 50 of them with delivery starting in 2023. (It actually converted 30 A321neos into XLRs and added 20 new orders.) Some of these will replace the 757s. They may also replace some of those 767 exploratory routes. You know what I mean — routes like Philly to Dubrovnik or Miami to Cordoba that may or may not work, but on which American figured it could throw some old 767s and take a low-risk swing.

The A321XLR opens up an incredible number of new route possibilities. From Philly, nearly all of Europe is in range, and the same can be said from any city in the Northeast. From Florida, all of South America is in range down to even Buenos Aires and Santiago. Heck, much of South America is even in range from the Northeast. With the vastly improved operating economics of the A321XLR, American will be able to try a lot of new routes that it couldn’t serve before.


https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com ... -analysis/
A321XLR: New Technology, Better Range
Speaking about the new order, United’s Chief Commercial Officer Andrew Nocella said:

“The new Airbus A321XLR aircraft is an ideal one-for-one replacement for the older, less-efficient aircraft currently operating between some of the most vital cities in our intercontinental network. In addition to strengthening our ability to fly more efficiently, the A321XLR’s range capabilities open potential new destinations to further develop our route network and provide customers with more options to travel the globe.”

The A321XLR range is up to 4,700 nautical miles. Meanwhile, the 757-200 range is 3,900 nautical miles. That opens up additional options in Europe and South America from both EWR and IAD.

More importantly, the A321XLR reduces fuel burn by 30% compared to 757-200.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Qf648
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 am

Well how many new orders are there for 757's (apart from a net fans) compared to the 321? Bet is more than the options for new build 380's #letsmakeanothera380vs757AvsBlovethread.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Cite?


Common knowledge, just look it up.


No, it isn't. The sky is blue is common knowledge. Trump is the US president is common knowledge. Those are things you would expect anyone you talk to to know. Knowledge of the 757 vs A321 is not something the average person would have any clue about.

The nasty remarks are very saddening. How can you call yourself a fan of aviation but celebrate that a new aircraft may not be built?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A320neo_family

If you read and look through that you can find all the information you talk about. Alternatively you can go on the homepage of both Airbus and Boeing, there you find all the data. I hope you can find there the technical data under commercial airframes.
To get to the detailed characteristics you look for:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support ... stics.html
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/airpo ... nuals.page

757-200WL compared to A321neoLR I up the numbers for the 757-200 slightly because most are now WL.
MAX payload 757-200WL 25.9t A321neoLR 25.5 t.
Range 757-200 4,0500 nm A321neoLR 4.000 nm
Fuel burn 20% percent lower on the A321neoLR on the same routes at the same load.
Take off at ISA 757-200 2070 m A321neoLR about 2000 m

If you declare that you do not find fuel burn, look at how much fuel the 757-200 takes and how far it flies with that load, compared to the A321neoLR
The only point were the A321neoLR comes out inferior is sheer space for cargo when fitted with three ACT and that is only a consideration for airlines like Icelandair.

Here we talk about the operation on the edge of the range for both frames and capabilities are quite similar. Now Airbus went a step further and is selling the XLR.
That bird will have more range than both the 757-200 and the A321neoLR

I assume similar max payload, more fuel than the LR with less space used in the cargo hold for ACTs, leads to more space for cargo. Range around 4700 nm.

If you can show me numbers were the 757-200WL is more capable than the A321LR, I would be interested. You will not be able to show numbers were the 757-200WL will be more capable than the A321neoXLR.

By the way, common knowledge does mean to me, information you find inside of 10 minutes on the internet.
Last edited by mjoelnir on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:07 am

Max Q wrote:
NMA is toast


Boeing dithered too long and Airbus totally outmaneuvered them

You can’t get narrowbody economics from a widebody,
that’s never going to change



If it were true Ed Bastian would have rushed to the A321neo derivatives. It's just that the NMA has nothing to do with the A321neo derivatives in terms of the number of passengers ...

A. Net still hasn't understood :roll:
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3583
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:10 am

chrisp390 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


The relevant exchange is found in the linked video between 3:25 and 4:45.

I think you're reading too much into this wrt NMA. He's speaking generally of Boeing launching 'new technologies for the new aircraft we're waiting to order.' Could be MAXs, 787s, NMA, 777X... The aircraft isn't definite. The time frame isn't definite.


I agree it was not definite, however based on Delta stating they wanted to be the NMA launch customer before I believe it points to that. The 777X they could have ordered already (plus it is too big for them), the 787 has been on sale a long time and they already have a long deferred order if I’m correct, and the MAX I don’t believe it is that because they were talking about that plane on the interview. The way he spoke about it seemed like it was something else.

If Boeing has shelved the NMA Delta would know and he would not have said that, hence me thinking it may still be launched post the MAX issues.


The 787 was dropped with one of the 737-900 orders that they placed.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:33 am

chrisp390 wrote:
Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?

I have been saying this for 6 months. The 797 is coming.

It would look really bad to publicly launch a new aircraft when the 737MAX is grounded. Common sense really.

There is no law that states an aircraft must be publicly launched before development can start. Boeing could launch the aircraft on the same day as the first flight if they wanted to. Boeing of course wouldn't do that as keeping things secret for that long puts up the price significantly. On the day the 797 is launched I expect the design work to be near complete, they will already be cutting metal for the landing gear and the engines would be getting assembled.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3525
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:34 am

jghealey wrote:
Both UA and AA are actively buying used A319s... I don't think they're going anytime soon. UA for instance is buying several EasyJet and China Southern ones. Many of AA's are actually under 6years old (even with sharklets) as well so no immediate need for them to be replaced.


AA has some older A319's that it inherited through the AA-US merger, including some that US inherited from HP through the US-HP merger. In addition to the ex-HP and ex-US A319's that AA inherited through the AA-US merger, AA also recently took delivery of some used A319's that were acquired from F9.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:39 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
NMA is toast


Boeing dithered too long and Airbus totally outmaneuvered them

You can’t get narrowbody economics from a widebody,
that’s never going to change



If it were true Ed Bastian would have rushed to the A321neo derivatives. It's just that the NMA has nothing to do with the A321neo derivatives in terms of the number of passengers ...

A. Net still hasn't understood :roll:


You do know that Delta has A321neo on order?
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:48 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
NMA is toast


Boeing dithered too long and Airbus totally outmaneuvered them

You can’t get narrowbody economics from a widebody,
that’s never going to change



If it were true Ed Bastian would have rushed to the A321neo derivatives. It's just that the NMA has nothing to do with the A321neo derivatives in terms of the number of passengers ...

A. Net still hasn't understood :roll:


You do know that Delta has A321neo on order?


I'm talking about "A321neo derivatives" , LR's and XLR's those supposed to kill the NMA ...

Did Bastian do it?
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 am

oschkosch wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Airbus did a great job in attacking the NMA business case with the A321XLR. Great timing also.



correct, and now nobody is waiting for the NMA anymore, the business case is dead!


The A321neo cannot be a killer since the NMA is a future killer of A330- / 300 / 800neo...

The 797 office is still officially open!
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...

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