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PacoMartin
Posts: 901
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:30 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure where you got that data but it is all kinds of wrong. Delta ordered 10 737-700 in 2006. And they certainly didn't order any 772LR's in 1997.


The data comes directly from the Boeing website
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries

Delta received their first delivery for 772LR on 28. Feb. 2008. I believe that what Boeing does with their database is they keep the same date of the order even if the model is changed. I suspect those 5 772LRs in the mid 1990s were originally orders for a different B777 and were subsequently changed. I suspect that the same thing happened with the 2006 order.


Order Date Total Model
Mar 14, 2017 10 737-900ER
Dec 16, 2015 20 737-900ER
Aug 24, 2011 100 737-900ER
Jul 31, 2008 2 777-200LR
Dec 12, 2007 2 777-200LR
Jun 29, 2007 1 777-200LR
Dec 31, 2006 10 737-800
-----
Sep 19, 2000 1 767-300ER
Apr 12, 2000 1 737-800
Mar 8, 2000 1 737-800
Feb 15, 2000 1 737-800
Jan 3, 2000 1 737-800
Dec 15, 1999 2 737-800
Dec 15, 1999 1 757-200
Nov 30, 1999 1 737-800
Nov 30, 1999 1 757-200
Sep 30, 1999 18 737-800
Jun 17, 1999 6 737-800
Jun 17, 1999 1 757-200
Jun 17, 1999 6 767-300ER
Apr 1, 1999 1 767-300ER
Dec 22, 1998 30 737-800
Dec 22, 1998 14 757-200
Dec 22, 1998 3 767-300ER
Dec 22, 1998 1 777-200LR
May 19, 1998 1 737-800
May 19, 1998 4 757-200
May 19, 1998 1 767-300ER
Mar 27, 1998 2 777-200ER
Nov 13, 1997 6 777-200ER
Nov 13, 1997 4 777-200LR
Jun 10, 1997 10 737-700
Jun 10, 1997 60 737-800
Jun 10, 1997 5 757-200
Jun 10, 1997 10 767-300ER
Jun 10, 1997 21 767-400ER
Jan 31, 1996 12 767-300ER
-----
Delta signs an exclusive contract with Boeing. All such contracts are voided by the US government as a pre-condition of Boeing acquiring McDonnell Douglas.
-----
May 1, 1992 1 MD-11
Mar 1, 1992 1 MD-11
Dec 31, 1991 2 757-200
Dec 19, 1991 4 757-200
Nov 1, 1991 2 MD-80-88
Oct 1, 1991 2 MD-80-88
Jun 13, 1991 4 757-200
Jun 1, 1991 2 767-300ER
May 1, 1991 1 MD-80-88
Apr 1, 1991 4 MD-80-88
Mar 1, 1991 2 MD-80-88
Feb 1, 1991 2 MD-11
Feb 1, 1991 2 MD-80-88
Jan 1, 1991 2 MD-80-88
Dec 20, 1990 9 757-200
Dec 20, 1990 4 767-300
Dec 20, 1990 7 767-300ER
Nov 9, 1990 1 767-300
Nov 9, 1990 1 767-300ER
Nov 1, 1990 2 MD-80-88
Oct 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
Sep 1, 1990 2 MD-11
Sep 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
Sep 1, 1990 16 MD-90-30
Aug 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
Jul 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
Jun 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
May 1, 1990 3 MD-80-88
Apr 1, 1990 2 MD-80-88
Nov 14, 1989 5 737-300
Nov 14, 1989 11 757-200
Nov 14, 1989 6 767-300
Nov 14, 1989 3 767-300ER
Nov 1, 1989 2 MD-80-88
Oct 1, 1989 3 MD-80-88
Sep 1, 1989 3 MD-80-88
Aug 1, 1989 3 MD-80-88
Jul 1, 1989 2 MD-80-88
Jun 1, 1989 2 MD-80-88
May 1, 1989 1 MD-80-88
Apr 1, 1989 2 MD-80-88
Nov 1, 1988 2 MD-80-88
Oct 1, 1988 2 MD-80-88
Sep 22, 1988 2 767-300
Sep 22, 1988 6 767-300ER
Sep 1, 1988 9 MD-11
Sep 1, 1988 3 MD-80-88
Aug 1, 1988 3 MD-80-88
Jul 1, 1988 2 MD-80-88
Jun 1, 1988 5 MD-80-88
Apr 1, 1988 2 MD-80-88
Dec 1, 1987 1 MD-80-88
Nov 1, 1987 3 MD-80-88
Oct 1, 1987 3 MD-80-88
Sep 1, 1987 3 MD-80-88
Aug 1, 1987 3 MD-80-88
Jul 1, 1987 2 MD-80-88
Jun 1, 1987 6 MD-80-88
May 1, 1987 2 MD-80-88
Apr 24, 1987 6 767-300
Apr 1, 1987 1 MD-80-88
Sep 1, 1986 6 MD-80-88
Jun 1, 1986 1 MD-80-88
Mar 1, 1986 8 MD-80-82
Mar 1, 1986 7 MD-80-88
Oct 2, 1985 6 737-200
Feb 27, 1985 4 767-300
Feb 21, 1984 5 767-300
Dec 21, 1982 33 737-200
Nov 12, 1980 60 757-200
Nov 15, 1978 5 727-200
Nov 15, 1978 15 767-200
Feb 7, 1977 24 727-200
Nov 10, 1976 4 727-200
May 11, 1976 21 727-200
Jun 12, 1975 4 727-200
Oct 17, 1974 19 727-200
Feb 25, 1974 3 727-200
May 30, 1973 8 727-200
Sep 21, 1972 14 727-200
Mar 29, 1972 14 727-200
Apr 1, 1970 5 DC-9-30
Oct 1, 1968 1 DC-9-30
Aug 1, 1968 4 DC-9-30
Jun 21, 1968 2 747-100
Dec 1, 1967 1 DC-8-61
Nov 1, 1967 1 DC-9-30
Oct 1, 1967 1 DC-9-30
Jul 1, 1967 5 DC-9-30
Jun 26, 1967 3 747-100
Dec 1, 1966 6 DC-9-30
Sep 1, 1966 7 DC-8-61
Sep 1, 1966 12 DC-9-30
Jun 1, 1966 1 DC-8-61
May 1, 1966 12 DC-9-30
Apr 1, 1966 1 DC-8-61
Oct 1, 1965 3 DC-8-61
Aug 1, 1965 1 DC-8-50
Aug 1, 1965 16 DC-9-30
Jan 1, 1965 2 DC-8-50
Sep 1, 1964 2 DC-8-50
Sep 1, 1963 2 DC-8-50
Aug 1, 1963 2 DC-8-50
Apr 1, 1963 14 DC-9-10
Oct 1, 1962 2 DC-8-50
Jun 1, 1962 1 DC-8-50
Jul 1, 1961 3 DC-8-50
Mar 1, 1956 6 DC-8-10
total 950
 
VV
Posts: 1898
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:52 pm

Basically the title of this thread suggests Delta is ready to order but it has to wait because the thing is not offered yet.


Wouldn't it be logical to know the thing first before ordering?

Or does Delta know something already?
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:58 pm

keesje wrote:

A321 first flight was 1993, 757: 1982.



So if the A321 is from 1993 then we will consider that the 757-300 and 737NG's are from 1999?
Be serious Keesje...

keesje wrote:
The 757 weighs 10t (~100 passengers) more than a A321.
Who wants to pay the fuel for flying 10t dead metal around, for decades?
The 757 maintenance program / costs looks more like a 767 than a 737. Also the engines.
I have nothing against the 757, it just became just too heavy & expensive for the airlines.



It is paradoxical...

and a huge mistake for Boeing.

1. The 757 was a "hybrid" because it had a 737 fuselage with wings close to the dimensions of the A310. Normal that it is heavy. The 757 was a medium-term IMO solution. So why compare it with the A321 which is a "pure" narrow body?

2. The other weakness and Boeing error is that the 737 did not have enough ground clearance as the 757 until the solution of the landing gear of the 737 MAX 10. We know the story with the 737 Max-8.

Both have different handicapping characteristics


keesje wrote:
Designing a NMA, Boeing should watch out not getting too heavy & expensive. Twin aisle oval doesn't sound good in that respect.


Rather, the NMA will be lighter than the A330-200's, 767-400ER's and 787-8's ultimately

It'll be cheap since Boeing studied the feasibility. Why have you been repeating the opposite for years?

keesje wrote:
Boeing better assume Airbus will do an affordable A322NEO and will put on 3-5% enhanced engines on the NEO's after 2025.


For some passengers the A322-X concept would be a hell of boarding and disembarking...
Last edited by Checklist787 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1851
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:02 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.

And it only took them 40 years and 3 remakes to do it. Congratulations Airbus on a “fine” job.

Maybe that was because the A320 was not originally designed to play in the same court as the 757?
Today's 737 line-up does not even remotely compare in capabilities to the 737-200, and even more to the 737-100. Yet, it's on the same TCDS and part of the same family.

The A320, and the 737, have evolved following customers changes in requirement.
 
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PacoMartin
Posts: 901
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:06 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
I think sooner rather than later Delta and Boeing will commit to launching the NMA. A symbolic move on Delta's part in restoring faith in the only large U.S.- based aircraft manufacturer. Something tells me Delta will not turn away from Boeing this time, and perhaps Delta's technical expertise in multiple areas would help restore strength in the NMA momentum.


That is kind of touching, but If you look at the total number of Boeing orders (post 9/11) in North America, Delta ranks lower than Alaska.

608 Southwest Airlines
468 GECAS
393 United Airlines
372 American Airlines
319 Air Lease Corporation
182 Aviation Capital Group
171 FedEx Express
168 Alaska Airlines
154 International Lease Finance Co
145 Delta Air Lines
132 WestJet Airlines
124 Business Jet / VIP Customer(s)
121 Air Canada
103 United States Navy
82 CIT Aerospace LLC
76 UPS
71 BDS USAF Tanker Program
59 AirTran Airways (Merged with S
33 Boeing Capital Corporation
33 Jackson Square Aviation
31 BDS U.S. Navy (P-8A Poseidon)
25 Midwest Airlines, Inc.
20 BBAM Aircraft Management LP
14 DHL
10 Altavair LLC
10 Atlas Air, Inc.
6 U.S. Air Force
5 Hawaiian Airlines
5 Jetlines
4 Oak Hill
4 Voyager Aviation Aircraft Leas
2 ATA Airlines, Inc.
2 USAF PAR Program
1 Miami Air
3953
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:08 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Olddog wrote:
It is so easy, and yet Boeing does not launch it. I wonder why ?

Because the 737MAX is grounded.

I'm shocked how people can't understand how bad that would look.

Boeing did not allow any media to come to the rollout of the 737-10 two months ago. Boeing did not mention it on their social media either.

The 737 MAX was grounded 10 months ago; the NMA has been discussed about (and supposedly worked on) for many years now.

If it was so easy to do and such a commercial slam dunk, why hasn't Boeing pulled the trigger years ago, before the 737 MAX grounding?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4408
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:22 pm

To remain a viable air-frame manufacturer Boeing needs to launch a second fully up to date plane. The MAX8, despite two horrible failures can be an OK performer for the next 10 years. The 777Xs will do OK as a niche product in the same time period. Only the 787s are truly up to date air-frames. The NMA does not have to be a super seller, it needs to make some profit, and guide the way to the next NSA. I suspect if launched it will garner a lot more orders than most think. Boeing's goals of 20% net profits need to be trashed - they have led to disaster. Solid 10% profits are reasonable, perhaps even a little less with the NMA. It needs to be built for strategic reasons.

ps - Boeing better direct some of that design and manufacturing excellence into building cheaper simulators. LOL
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19278
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:44 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
The 797 would probably have launched around the time of the first 737MAX crash which would have given it a normal timeline to hit the 2025 service date.


So you think NMA was "ready to go" in October 2018?

Muilenburg disagreed in May 2019:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 99.article
“We are continuing to work through our business case analysis and continuing along a path of a two-step decision process,”


McAllister disagreed in June 2019:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... commit-nma
Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Kevin McAllister indicated that the company has yet to make a business case for the proposed NMA


Checklist787 wrote:
2. The other weakness and Boeing error is that the 737 did not have enough ground clearance as the 757 until the solution of the landing gear of the 737 MAX 10.


The landing gear of the 737-10 does not change the ground clearance of the plane by a single mm. What it does is extends at the point of rotation to increase the rotation angle in order to improve field performance. The 737-10 has the same ground clearance as all other versions of MAX.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?


I love the A321 runs circles around the 757 comments. It must be why after 25 years of the A321 Delta still flies 122 757s 15 years after the last 757 was delivered.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:12 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
Airbus did a great job in attacking the NMA business case with the A321XLR. Great timing also.


I think Airbus did a great job showing there is a case for the NMA. Isnt there about 600 orders now for the XLR?
 
flyabr
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:00 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
flyabr wrote:

Not yet, but would not at all be surprised if some of those "plain" NEOs are switched to LRs or XLRs!


Well you should be surprised because it doesn't cost DL anything to do it and E. Bastian didn't.

Strange isn't it? :)

Is DL supposed to get all those A321neos in the next few months? No.
So, the A321neo and the A321XLR varying only by a few internal details, those details can be hammered out when it's time to order them; and DL will make the decision at the point to continue with the A321neo or to switch to the A321XLR. There's plenty of time.


Exactly!
 
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Stitch
Posts: 27294
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Delta ordered 8 772ER with the last one being delivered in 2002. The 772LR order was placed in 2006. I imagine some intern entered the data for the website and well...you get what you pay for.


Boeing policy when a customer changes the model of an outstanding order, the original order date is retained. So one of their outstanding, but as yet unfulfilled, 777-200ER orders from 1998 was converted to a 777-200LR which is why it shows as being ordered on 22-Dec-1998 even though the actual paperwork converting the frame from a 777-200ER to a 777-200LR happened in 2007.

You can see the same with Air France, which shows them ordering 10 777-300ERs on 10 November 2000, even though the plane was still in initial development as the 777-300X at the time and Authority to Offer had not been granted by the Board of Directors.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8479
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:00 pm

The last ten Delta 739ERs - Boeing's put option exercise - were done as an amendment to a 1997 order.

See the 1Q17 10Q filing.

Supplemental Agreement No. 20
to
Purchase Agreement No. 2022
between
The Boeing Company
and
Delta Air Lines, Inc. ______________________________ This Supplemental Agreement No. 20 ( Supplemental Agreement ) dated as of March 30, 2017 amends Purchase
Agreement No. 2022 dated as of October 21, 1997 ( Purchase Agreement ) between The Boeing Company ( Boeing )
and Delta Air Lines, Inc. ( Customer ) relating to the purchase and sale of Model 737-900ER aircraft ( Aircraft ). The
Purchase Agreement incorporates the terms and conditions of the Aircraft General Terms Agreement dated as of
October 21, 1997 between the parties, identified as AGTA‑DAL ( AGTA ).
 
ItnStln
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:01 pm

astuteman wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
AS desperately wants NSA/NMA/whatever; they need 757 payload and better than 757 range in whatever is developed, and very low operating costs. Absent anything new from Boeing in the next month, there's a possibility of a future fleet replacement order from them in mid to late February after the BOD meets.


for what its worth, that description could be tailor-made for the A321XLR.

It will take the same 20 tonne payload as a 757-200 some 500Nm further, even without the additional ACT, at a dramatically lower cost.
4 500Nm on 36,400l (29 tonnes) for the XLR sans ACT
4 000Nm on 42,600l (34.25 tonnes) for the 757-200

The only way that it falls slightly short of the 752 is in cabin length, being about 2 1/2 m shorter (unless you fancy a meaningless foray into the field performance thing)

Rgds

Why, in your opinion, is the 757's field performance meaningless?
 
majano
Posts: 280
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:22 pm

ItnStln wrote:
astuteman wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
AS desperately wants NSA/NMA/whatever; they need 757 payload and better than 757 range in whatever is developed, and very low operating costs. Absent anything new from Boeing in the next month, there's a possibility of a future fleet replacement order from them in mid to late February after the BOD meets.


for what its worth, that description could be tailor-made for the A321XLR.

It will take the same 20 tonne payload as a 757-200 some 500Nm further, even without the additional ACT, at a dramatically lower cost.
4 500Nm on 36,400l (29 tonnes) for the XLR sans ACT
4 000Nm on 42,600l (34.25 tonnes) for the 757-200

The only way that it falls slightly short of the 752 is in cabin length, being about 2 1/2 m shorter (unless you fancy a meaningless foray into the field performance thing)

Rgds

Why, in your opinion, is the 757's field performance meaningless?

I don't think Astuteman is saying the field performance of the 757 is meaningless. A foray into that is what he mentioned.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
2. The other weakness and Boeing error is that the 737 did not have enough ground clearance as the 757 until the solution of the landing gear of the 737 MAX 10.


The landing gear of the 737-10 does not change the ground clearance of the plane by a single mm. What it does is extends at the point of rotation to increase the rotation angle in order to improve field performance. The 737-10 has the same ground clearance as all other versions of MAX.

:checkmark:
Yes I made an amalgam.
Indeed it allowed to strech the fuselage a little more to obtain MAX-10

What never could before...
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
TObound
Posts: 783
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:55 pm

Elementalism wrote:
LaunchDetected wrote:
Airbus did a great job in attacking the NMA business case with the A321XLR. Great timing also.


I think Airbus did a great job showing there is a case for the NMA. Isnt there about 600 orders now for the XLR?


Are you sure that the 321XLR's success proves the market for the NMA? It's one thing to add a subtype (XLR) for an existing 321NEO operator, and another to add a whole new type (NMA). It's entirely possible there's a case for the XLR and not for the NMA.

I want the NMA to happen. But I think skepticism on the business case is absolutely warranted.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 4:42 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:21 pm

Should Boeing choose to not launch NMA, I wouldn’t be surprised if the NMA becomes a revival of the 787-3 concept for Delta.

The 787-8 falls in the capacity window that Delta is looking for, but it’s far too much range and capability.

Short of Boeing actually launching the NMA, a derated, lower gross weight 788 would work perfectly to replace the 76W fleet.

It could be done with a simple paper weight reduction and software derate for the engine at minimal cost to Boeing. Development of a an entirely new 787 variant would not necessarily be required.

Delta also has a contract to operate as a MRO provider for the Trent 1000, which makes the idea a bit more compelling.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 2071
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:24 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
The 737 MAX was grounded 10 months ago; the NMA has been discussed about (and supposedly worked on) for many years now.

If it was so easy to do and such a commercial slam dunk, why hasn't Boeing pulled the trigger years ago, before the 737 MAX grounding?

The first 737MAX crash was in October 2018. From that point any new product launch would have been put on hold.

The 787 public launch was April 2004 and the original plan was to enter service 5 years later in 2009. By 2006 the service date had become 2010 and it ended up entering service in 2011 making 7 year from launch to service. People should not take 7 years as the standard timeline.

Now if you assume the original 5 year launch to service then Boeing would launch the 797 in 2020 for a 2025 planned service date.

To launch in 2018 is simply too early for a 2025 service date. Boeing would have had to assume there would be multiple delays to launch that early. The 797 uses off the shelf technology when it comes to structure, systems and engines. It is very low risk in terms of delays.

Boeing could also have planned to launch in 2019 to give an acceptable 6 years before the planned service date. The 737MAX problems would have prevented this.

Launching in 2016 or 2017 for say a 2022 service date would not have been possible as the 737MAX and 777X developments.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:18 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Well, why would they do up front work? They would need formal board approval to launch the type and offer it to the market. Only then do they do the bulk of the "hard" development & design work. Other wise they would have done design/development work & would be cutting metal for something the market may not order/want.

Airbus and Boeing always do up front work before a public launch. There is no rule saying how much work is allowed to be done. Formal board approval does not have to be made public.

When an aircraft has a public launch the airlines that order it have already signed agreements in private. They do not make the decision to order the aircraft on the day of the public launch. The airlines would already have accurate specs of the aircraft months or even years before the public launch. This requires significant engineering work to be done and the more work that is done the airlines will get more accurate performance data, pricing and delivery timeline.

The 797 would probably have launched around the time of the first 737MAX crash which would have given it a normal timeline to hit the 2025 service date.

Pushing the public launch 18 months does not change the service date. Boeing would not pause development. The airlines would already have verbal and/or written agreements in place to order the aircraft and have rough delivery dates.

They of course do up front work to be able to conceptualize a design and it's feasibility (both technical and economic). I was responding to the post that made it sound like the board approval is almost a formality and the airplane literally can fly the next day. They do the bulk of the work after the board approval.

And where did you come up with " Formal board approval does not have to be made public. "? Have you heard "corporate governance"? Formal board approval of course has to be made public without a shred of doubt. The board is not some rogue entity running a mom and pop shop.

I was working for Boeing in the early 2000s when the "up front" work was being done for the 7E7 (later called 787). Left around the time the formal board approval was granted and announced in 2003. After that the bulk of the development was done (both on the aircraft itself and the production factories, assembly lines etc.). Test flight was 6 years later in 2009. The post i replied to made it sound like board approval was just a formality in the very end after plane was almost built and could literally fly almost the next day.

BTW, here is a complete B 787 timeline for your reference - https://komonews.com/archive/a-timeline ... dreamliner
 
oschkosch
Posts: 598
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:32 pm

747megatop wrote:

And where did you come up with " Formal board approval does not have to be made public. "? Have you heard "corporate governance"? Formal board approval of course has to be made public without a shred of doubt. The board is not some rogue entity running a mom and pop shop.

I was working for Boeing in the early 2000s when the "up front" work was being done for the 7E7 (later called 787). Left around the time the formal board approval was granted and announced in 2003. After that the bulk of the development was done (both on the aircraft itself and the production factories, assembly lines etc.). Test flight was 6 years later in 2009. The post i replied to made it sound like board approval was just a formality in the very end after plane was almost built and could literally fly almost the next day.

BTW, here is a complete B 787 timeline for your reference - https://komonews.com/archive/a-timeline ... dreamliner



Thank you so much for clarifying this. Great to see people with real insight straightening out some of the myths that are posted here!


Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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PepeTheFrog
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:41 pm

chrisp390 wrote:
Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


If NMA goes ahead I think it will be a narrowbody plane instead of the earlier widebody concept. Rebranded as FSA.
Good moaning!
 
ethernal
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:59 pm

Elementalism wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.


Cite?


I love the A321 runs circles around the 757 comments. It must be why after 25 years of the A321 Delta still flies 122 757s 15 years after the last 757 was delivered.


I am pretty sure Delta does not have any A321neos yet. It is pretty clear that the A321neos are - broadly speaking - Delta's replacement for the 757.

From a passenger airline perspective, the A321neo (or appropriate family analog by use case - e.g., XLR) is equal to or exceeds the performance of 757 in 99% of use cases.

The only exception here is a small tip of the hat to 752s on payload capacity and a couple hundred feet edge on takeoff performance at similar payloads when adjusting for range efficiency.

That slight edge doesn't do enough to make up for the 25% increase in fuel burn the 757 has.

This is not a knock against the 757 - which, narrow fuselage aside I love. It's just a testament to the progression of technology. The A321neo performs better because of better engines, better materials, better assembly techniques, and better design tools.

Either way, the 757 is not really the airplane that Delta is looking for the NMA to replace. It is the 767. So this whole debate is moot, other than the fact that the A321XLR range capabilities make it a potential replacement for a portion of 767 use cases. The 757 is completely irrelevant here.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:15 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
chrisp390 wrote:
Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


If NMA goes ahead I think it will be a narrowbody plane instead of the earlier widebody concept. Rebranded as FSA.

Whatever the form of the NMA, Boeing would like to build it with reduced costs.

Then the oval fuselage 2-3-2 / 7-abreast will sell on its own if is cheap

I expect a revolution if they launch it ... But Boeing has been swinging a lot of money through the windows and have been too much in turmoil the last 15 years...

They need more time to De-risk the program and return the 737MAX in the air firstly
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:38 am

NW747-400 wrote:
Should Boeing choose to not launch NMA, I wouldn’t be surprised if the NMA becomes a revival of the 787-3 concept for Delta.

To make the 787-3 work requires half of the plane to be optimised including a smaller wing.

NW747-400 wrote:
It could be done with a simple paper weight reduction and software derate for the engine at minimal cost to Boeing. Development of a an entirely new 787 variant would not necessarily be required.
Paper derates never work. They save a little bit on engine maintenance and that is about it.

Derated aircraft actually increase fuel burn per kg of payload. Let me explain. The 787-8 payload range chart conveniently has lines for various takeoff weights. The full 228t MTOW can carry full payload out to 5500nm. Now lets say Boeing derated the 787-3 to 181t it can only carry full payload to 1900nm. Beyond 1900nm the payload has to be reduced to make way for more fuel.

On a 3500nm flight for example the 181t MTOW 787-3 could only carry half of the maximum payload. The 787-8 on this route could carry twice the payload weight while burning only 20% more fuel. The 787-8 fuel burn per kg is vastly better.

Go up to 5000nm flight and the 787-8 could now carry three times the payload while burning only 20% more fuel.

Airlines could just order normal 787-8's and take off at a lower weight and get the same result. They retain thw flexibility of being able to send the 787-8 on a 6000nm flight. The derated 787-3 would cost the same as a normal 787-8 to build but Boeing would have to charge less.

The only way the 787-3 can work is if empty weight is removed. This is where the 787-3 can gain performance but removing weight is extremely expensive. There is no single part that can be lightened to provide a big weight saving. The wing, central wingbox, landing gear and engines would all be targets for weight reduction and full optimisation. Doing one of them gains very little. Doing all four and you are half way to a cleansheet design.

The original planned 787-3 had weight reduction on three of the four. When the 787-3 has cancelled it was now only the wing that has getting weight reduction. Boeing has to go all out to make the 787-3 work, there is no cheap solution.
 
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par13del
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:10 am

Olddog wrote:
It is so easy, and yet Boeing does not launch it. I wonder why ?

Design and profitably are different things, just because it can be designed does not close the business case, which according to all we know is where the problem lies.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:18 am

scbriml wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
The 797 would probably have launched around the time of the first 737MAX crash which would have given it a normal timeline to hit the 2025 service date.


So you think NMA was "ready to go" in October 2018?

Muilenburg disagreed in May 2019:
https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers ... 99.article
“We are continuing to work through our business case analysis and continuing along a path of a two-step decision process,”


This the same Mullenburg who had issues with the MAX RTS timeline?
scbriml wrote:
McAllister disagreed in June 2019:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... commit-nma
Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Kevin McAllister indicated that the company has yet to make a business case for the proposed NMA

Not sure about the credibility of this one, but since the board has not announced anything as yet he is good so far...
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:42 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
I think sooner rather than later Delta and Boeing will commit to launching the NMA. A symbolic move on Delta's part in restoring faith in the only large U.S.- based aircraft manufacturer. Something tells me Delta will not turn away from Boeing this time, and perhaps Delta's technical expertise in multiple areas would help restore strength in the NMA momentum.


That is kind of touching, but If you look at the total number of Boeing orders (post 9/11) in North America, Delta ranks lower than Alaska.

608 Southwest Airlines
468 GECAS
393 United Airlines
372 American Airlines
319 Air Lease Corporation
182 Aviation Capital Group
171 FedEx Express
168 Alaska Airlines
154 International Lease Finance Co
145 Delta Air Lines
132 WestJet Airlines
124 Business Jet / VIP Customer(s)
121 Air Canada
103 United States Navy
82 CIT Aerospace LLC
76 UPS
71 BDS USAF Tanker Program
59 AirTran Airways (Merged with S
33 Boeing Capital Corporation
33 Jackson Square Aviation
31 BDS U.S. Navy (P-8A Poseidon)
25 Midwest Airlines, Inc.
20 BBAM Aircraft Management LP
14 DHL
10 Altavair LLC
10 Atlas Air, Inc.
6 U.S. Air Force
5 Hawaiian Airlines
5 Jetlines
4 Oak Hill
4 Voyager Aviation Aircraft Leas
2 ATA Airlines, Inc.
2 USAF PAR Program
1 Miami Air
3953



I hear your point and see past order behavioral evidence you put forth. But I just have a feeling that Delta will embrace a new technology from Boeing. Delta has been extremely vocal about wanting it and I don't think Delta would be such a vocal fan of an NMA only to shun it, especially after Boeing will have then climbed out of the MAX doldrums and a deal with Delta may be considered a new life-line in trust. In addition, your evidence can suggest that it's time for more supplier-diversification. But who really knows? I'm rooting for the NMA and Delta as the launcher!
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:56 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
I hear your point and see past order behavioral evidence you put forth. But I just have a feeling that Delta will embrace a new technology from Boeing. Delta has been extremely vocal about wanting it and I don't think Delta would be such a vocal fan of an NMA only to shun it, especially after Boeing will have then climbed out of the MAX doldrums and a deal with Delta may be considered a new life-line in trust. In addition, your evidence can suggest that it's time for more supplier-diversification. But who really knows? I'm rooting for the NMA and Delta as the launcher!

So you do not think this can be another Qantas and the 777 scenario, they ended up taking the a/c that best suited their needs (so we are told) so why would DL be any different?
If Boeing used DL as a potential customer to push them into authorizing the MOM I would say they are very brave souls.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:59 pm

par13del wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
I hear your point and see past order behavioral evidence you put forth. But I just have a feeling that Delta will embrace a new technology from Boeing. Delta has been extremely vocal about wanting it and I don't think Delta would be such a vocal fan of an NMA only to shun it, especially after Boeing will have then climbed out of the MAX doldrums and a deal with Delta may be considered a new life-line in trust. In addition, your evidence can suggest that it's time for more supplier-diversification. But who really knows? I'm rooting for the NMA and Delta as the launcher!

So you do not think this can be another Qantas and the 777 scenario, they ended up taking the a/c that best suited their needs (so we are told) so why would DL be any different?
If Boeing used DL as a potential customer to push them into authorizing the MOM I would say they are very brave souls.


First, I think now more than ever a case is made for a totally new design of aircraft, just for the sake of aviation advancement itself. Boeing should take the lead in this regard now. Secondly, I believe Quantas was forced the A330 (vs 777) as a package deal with the at-the-time-gotta-have A380s. As you may know, Quantas regretted that move and went with the 787 later on to try to make up for the gap (googled that.). I think the 797/MOM is the right airplane for Delta and they recently stated they are not convinced narrow-bodies are the way to go across the Atlantic a la A321XLR. Third, I can't see Delta so vocal on pushing Boeing along for a clean slate only to say no when Boeing decides to build it.
 
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PW100
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:14 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
keesje wrote:
keesje wrote:
Designing a NMA, Boeing should watch out not getting too heavy & expensive. Twin aisle oval doesn't sound good in that respect.


Rather, the NMA will be lighter than the A330-200's, 767-400ER's and 787-8's ultimately

It'll be cheap since Boeing studied the feasibility. Why have you been repeating the opposite for years?


It'll be cheap . . . . ?

I think the biggest hurdle for any new offering in this market is whether it can even start to think competing with a product that reaps the industrialization benefits of production rate of 60 - 70 frames *per month*. And that doesn't merely apply to FAL logitics, but more so to the full supply chain.
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:55 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Third, I can't see Delta so vocal on pushing Boeing along for a clean slate only to say no when Boeing decides to build it.

The mantra that large airlines have the volume to operate multiple types is rarely acknowledged by the OEM's, you are aware that one of the core features of Airbus is pilot type, they want to keep you as a customer from narrow body to wide body using the same pilot pool or minimal training as possible.
DL is now moving to mostly Airbus wide bodies, the few 777's that they have will most likely be phased out sooner rather than later or relegated to parts of the route structure where that pool of pilots requires no new blood.
If the new Boeing a/c is a wide body we already know its pilot pool will be unique, unless this order becomes the largest widebody fleet, DL will have more pilot pools which some may say is inefficient, if it replaces the 777 pool then the status quo remains.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:58 pm

PW100 wrote:

It'll be cheap . . . . ?

I think the biggest hurdle for any new offering in this market is whether it can even start to think competing with a product that reaps the industrialization benefits of production rate of 60 - 70 frames *per month*. And that doesn't merely apply to FAL logitics, but more so to the full supply chain.

You are assuming that this a/c will play primarily in the same region as the A321, if that were the case I do not think they would be talking about a small widebody a/c.
 
NW747-400
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:14 pm

par13del wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Third, I can't see Delta so vocal on pushing Boeing along for a clean slate only to say no when Boeing decides to build it.

The mantra that large airlines have the volume to operate multiple types is rarely acknowledged by the OEM's, you are aware that one of the core features of Airbus is pilot type, they want to keep you as a customer from narrow body to wide body using the same pilot pool or minimal training as possible.
DL is now moving to mostly Airbus wide bodies, the few 777's that they have will most likely be phased out sooner rather than later or relegated to parts of the route structure where that pool of pilots requires no new blood.
If the new Boeing a/c is a wide body we already know its pilot pool will be unique, unless this order becomes the largest widebody fleet, DL will have more pilot pools which some may say is inefficient, if it replaces the 777 pool then the status quo remains.


I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here regarding pilot pools. Delta Airbus pilots all fly their own equipment and are not cross trained on other fleets. In other words, A320 pilots only fly the A320 family, A330 pilots only fly the A330 family, and the A350 pilots only fly the A350. Having multiple Airbus types does not reduce the number of bidding categories for pilots at Delta.

Also, the company can’t relegate the 777 to certain pilot groups. When positions open on the 777 due to retirements, those positions are made available to the entire pilot group and are awarded in seniority order regardless of current fleet qualification.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:26 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Secondly, I believe Quantas was forced the A330 (vs 777) as a package deal with the at-the-time-gotta-have A380s.


The A330-300 was the better option for them anyway compared to the 777-200ER for Asia operations and while the 777-300ER could have worked for EU services, it wasn't really a viable option for them on TPAC services since CASA was so conservative on long-haul overwater operations with two engines.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:47 pm

par13del wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Third, I can't see Delta so vocal on pushing Boeing along for a clean slate only to say no when Boeing decides to build it.

The mantra that large airlines have the volume to operate multiple types is rarely acknowledged by the OEM's, you are aware that one of the core features of Airbus is pilot type, they want to keep you as a customer from narrow body to wide body using the same pilot pool or minimal training as possible.
DL is now moving to mostly Airbus wide bodies, the few 777's that they have will most likely be phased out sooner rather than later or relegated to parts of the route structure where that pool of pilots requires no new blood.
If the new Boeing a/c is a wide body we already know its pilot pool will be unique, unless this order becomes the largest widebody fleet, DL will have more pilot pools which some may say is inefficient, if it replaces the 777 pool then the status quo remains.

All this (which as pointed out above really doesn’t apply to DL) and yet you seem to skip over that any NMA would primarily replace the....Boeing 767. Do you think DL is going to fire the 757/767 pilots (it is one group) and only train from Airbus narrowbodies/widebodies for its replacement?

Training is towards the bottom of the list as to why Delta won’t select any new aircraft. They are not a small airline.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:56 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Secondly, I believe Quantas was forced the A330 (vs 777) as a package deal with the at-the-time-gotta-have A380s.


How did Airbus "force" Qantas to order A330s? Any sources?
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par13del
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:04 pm

NW747-400 wrote:
par13del wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Third, I can't see Delta so vocal on pushing Boeing along for a clean slate only to say no when Boeing decides to build it.

The mantra that large airlines have the volume to operate multiple types is rarely acknowledged by the OEM's, you are aware that one of the core features of Airbus is pilot type, they want to keep you as a customer from narrow body to wide body using the same pilot pool or minimal training as possible.
DL is now moving to mostly Airbus wide bodies, the few 777's that they have will most likely be phased out sooner rather than later or relegated to parts of the route structure where that pool of pilots requires no new blood.
If the new Boeing a/c is a wide body we already know its pilot pool will be unique, unless this order becomes the largest widebody fleet, DL will have more pilot pools which some may say is inefficient, if it replaces the 777 pool then the status quo remains.


I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here regarding pilot pools. Delta Airbus pilots all fly their own equipment and are not cross trained on other fleets. In other words, A320 pilots only fly the A320 family, A330 pilots only fly the A330 family, and the A350 pilots only fly the A350. Having multiple Airbus types does not reduce the number of bidding categories for pilots at Delta.

Airbus philosophy is to ensure that the training to move from one Airbus type to another is minimal at best, unlike Boeing who only did that for the 757/ 767.
So are there any cost savings to maintaining an all Airbus widebody fleet or is it just as efficient to introduce another Boeing type into the mix, this is where folks say as long as it is above a certain minimum number of a/c the additional cost is a wash.
I would say if Boeing needs anything from DL to push them into authorizing it would be a firm order and nothing else.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:10 pm

par13del wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
par13del wrote:
The mantra that large airlines have the volume to operate multiple types is rarely acknowledged by the OEM's, you are aware that one of the core features of Airbus is pilot type, they want to keep you as a customer from narrow body to wide body using the same pilot pool or minimal training as possible.
DL is now moving to mostly Airbus wide bodies, the few 777's that they have will most likely be phased out sooner rather than later or relegated to parts of the route structure where that pool of pilots requires no new blood.
If the new Boeing a/c is a wide body we already know its pilot pool will be unique, unless this order becomes the largest widebody fleet, DL will have more pilot pools which some may say is inefficient, if it replaces the 777 pool then the status quo remains.


I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here regarding pilot pools. Delta Airbus pilots all fly their own equipment and are not cross trained on other fleets. In other words, A320 pilots only fly the A320 family, A330 pilots only fly the A330 family, and the A350 pilots only fly the A350. Having multiple Airbus types does not reduce the number of bidding categories for pilots at Delta.

Airbus philosophy is to ensure that the training to move from one Airbus type to another is minimal at best, unlike Boeing who only did that for the 757/ 767.
So are there any cost savings to maintaining an all Airbus widebody fleet or is it just as efficient to introduce another Boeing type into the mix, this is where folks say as long as it is above a certain minimum number of a/c the additional cost is a wash.
I would say if Boeing needs anything from DL to push them into authorizing it would be a firm order and nothing else.

That is Boeing’s philosophy too. You realize, for example, that the 787 and 777 can be operated by a common pilot pool just like the A330/A350?

In any event it doesn’t matter what the OEM’s philosophy is, airlines do their own thing. DL’s training, even from Airbus to Airbus, is not necessarily reflective of the minimal training that the OEMs like to tout in marketing.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:20 pm

Polot wrote:
par13del wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:

I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to say here regarding pilot pools. Delta Airbus pilots all fly their own equipment and are not cross trained on other fleets. In other words, A320 pilots only fly the A320 family, A330 pilots only fly the A330 family, and the A350 pilots only fly the A350. Having multiple Airbus types does not reduce the number of bidding categories for pilots at Delta.

Airbus philosophy is to ensure that the training to move from one Airbus type to another is minimal at best, unlike Boeing who only did that for the 757/ 767.
So are there any cost savings to maintaining an all Airbus widebody fleet or is it just as efficient to introduce another Boeing type into the mix, this is where folks say as long as it is above a certain minimum number of a/c the additional cost is a wash.
I would say if Boeing needs anything from DL to push them into authorizing it would be a firm order and nothing else.

That is Boeing’s philosophy too. You realize, for example, that the 787 and 777 can be operated by a common pilot pool just like the A330/A350?

In any event it doesn’t matter what the OEM’s philosophy is, airlines do their own thing. DL’s training, even from Airbus to Airbus, is not necessarily reflective of the minimal training that the OEMs like to tout in marketing.


Exactly this. I realize other airlines do it differently, but an Airbus pilot going to another Airbus type at Delta still has to go to training on the new fleet. The training footprint can be reduced in certain instances, but that’s usually the exception and not the rule.

Any of the 14,000+ pilots can bid any fleet type and they all have to get trained, so training is something that Delta doesn’t much consider with regard to fleet acquisitions. Airbus pilots aren’t relegated to Airbus equipment, Boeing pilots aren’t relegated to Boeing equipment, etc.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:24 pm

NW747-400 wrote:
Airbus pilots aren’t relegated to Airbus equipment, Boeing pilots aren’t relegated to Boeing equipment, etc.

I never said they were but I am sure that for day to day operations they are....
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:27 pm

jetjack74 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
reltney wrote:
All interesting. The cheaper price seems to win over product quality every time. He stated he was waiting on Boeing and said the 321 with all the bells and whistles still can’t do what the 757 can but Boeing has their hands full. ....


FACT the A321XLR runs circles around the 757.

And it only took them 40 years and 3 remakes to do it. Congratulations Airbus on a “fine” job.


I doubt if running circles around any airframe was ever Airbus' goal. The tone of your post makes me sad. It is as far away from impartial as it is possible to stray.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Secondly, I believe Quantas was forced the A330 (vs 777) as a package deal with the at-the-time-gotta-have A380s.


How did Airbus "force" Qantas to order A330s? Any sources?


I didn't mean under duress or anything. I meant Airbus probably gave them a good deal on the A330 (bundled with the A380) that Quantas couldn't refuse!
Source: my imagination.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:35 pm

Polot wrote:
In any event it doesn’t matter what the OEM’s philosophy is, airlines do their own thing. DL’s training, even from Airbus to Airbus, is not necessarily reflective of the minimal training that the OEMs like to tout in marketing.


True, it's all relative!
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:35 pm

par13del wrote:
NW747-400 wrote:
Airbus pilots aren’t relegated to Airbus equipment, Boeing pilots aren’t relegated to Boeing equipment, etc.

I never said they were but I am sure that for day to day operations they are....


I’m not sure what difference that makes with regard to training. Every pilot at the company is relegated to a designated fleet type for day to day operations.
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:12 pm

Ed Bastian never mentioned anything about ordering the NMA. Serious, how has this thread not been deleted. The reporter asked Bastian if the industry was losing confidence in Boeing, and Bastian responded by saying that everybody hoped Boeing would rebound, because there were only two aircraft manufactures, and we (the industry, NOT Delta) needed Boeing to remain competitive so development on airplanes we (again, the industry, NOT Delta) order will be competitive. In other words... we, the industry, needs two major competitors to ensure sufficient investment is made in developing new technologies; if there were only one manufacture, there'd be less incentive to invest. (We've already seen this -- Airbus would likely not have proceeded with the 359, and instead relied on a 330NEO, if Boeing didn't go forward with the 787).

Only the Boeing fan boys could spin his comments into a topic titled "Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA." Nothing of any sort was said or suggested. Before replying... WATCH THE VIDEO!!!
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:49 pm

The most recent articles on the NMA are almost a month old, with a lot being said is still from John's insight that is over a year old. Could we wait until there is some actual announcements please.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-wan ... build-nma/
 
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:15 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
The most recent articles on the NMA are almost a month old, with a lot being said is still from John's insight that is over a year old. Could we wait until there is some actual announcements please.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/delta-wan ... build-nma/


Bastian’s comment came after he said he was “not convinced” that Airbus’ 757 replacement, the A321XLR, is the right plane for the transatlantic market.


Bastian says he has time to wait. So that's probably what Delta will do. They can extensively study how AA, UA, Jetblue, Frontier and European XLR's do on the North Atlantic for some years, maybe 2027, and then respond with an NMA.. Sounds like a plan.
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LMP737
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:21 am

chrisp390 wrote:
At an interview from the CES convention with CNBC, when Ed Bastion was asked about the Boeing 737 MAX, he went on to mention they were waiting to order their new airplane... the way he phrased it seemed like he meant the NMA rather than the MAX. You can watch the interview below,

https://youtu.be/_i5cpYMZGTk

Does this mean the Boeing NMA is in fact going ahead, and Boeing is maybe just waiting to get past the Max issues before launching it?


IMHO there will be no NMA. Something has to pay for the MAX disaster and launching a new aircraft will not do that. At least in the eyes of the people who run Boeing.

The new CEO is just another Jack Welsh clone like Jim McNierney was. It will be more of the same, just with a different name on the door.
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Mightyflyer86
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Re: Delta “Waiting To Order” Boeing NMA

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:32 am

Checklist787 wrote:
keesje wrote:

A321 first flight was 1993, 757: 1982.



So if the A321 is from 1993 then we will consider that the 757-300 and 737NG's are from 1999?
Be serious Keesje...

keesje wrote:
The 757 weighs 10t (~100 passengers) more than a A321.
Who wants to pay the fuel for flying 10t dead metal around, for decades?
The 757 maintenance program / costs looks more like a 767 than a 737. Also the engines.
I have nothing against the 757, it just became just too heavy & expensive for the airlines.



It is paradoxical...

and a huge mistake for Boeing.

1. The 757 was a "hybrid" because it had a 737 fuselage with wings close to the dimensions of the A310. Normal that it is heavy. The 757 was a medium-term IMO solution. So why compare it with the A321 which is a "pure" narrow body?

2. The other weakness and Boeing error is that the 737 did not have enough ground clearance as the 757 until the solution of the landing gear of the 737 MAX 10. We know the story with the 737 Max-8.

Both have different handicapping characteristics


keesje wrote:
Designing a NMA, Boeing should watch out not getting too heavy & expensive. Twin aisle oval doesn't sound good in that respect.


Rather, the NMA will be lighter than the A330-200's, 767-400ER's and 787-8's ultimately

It'll be cheap since Boeing studied the feasibility. Why have you been repeating the opposite for years?

keesje wrote:
Boeing better assume Airbus will do an affordable A322NEO and will put on 3-5% enhanced engines on the NEO's after 2025.


For some passengers the A322-X concept would be a hell of boarding and disembarking...


Are you calling a program that sold 1,050 units a mistake???

1) The 757 is no hybrid, it is a narrowbody. It was designed in the late 1970s to replace a three engined airplane (727).
2) The 727 was a short to medium haul airplane that had excellent runway performance so the 757 had to match it which is why it has a lot of wing surface area and powerful 1970s engines.
3) The 757 was an ultra efficient narrowbody by 1980s standards since it replaced a three engined airplane.
4) Both the 737NG and the A320 can fly the majority of the 757 routes with a lot less weight.
5) The 737NG and A320 are responsible for the 757's demise which is why Boeing stopped production in 2004.
6) One of the few reasons the 757 has been able to live a long life is because it is capable of flying short TATL routes which Continental Airlines started in 2007/2008.
7) The A321neo has been able to match the 757s range with a lot less weight so the 757 has become "heavy" by modern standards
8) The 757 is a great airplane, it has become obsolete because, after all, it's an airplane with technology from the 1970s.

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