Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Nicknuzzii
Topic Author
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:26 am

UA is currently in the process of forming a joint venture throughout South America with Avianca, Azul, and Copa. While the JV should be extremely beneficial on both ends does UA have something more to benefit from it than the others? Combined Avianca and Copa have quite a few slots at JFK but a limited and nonexistent presence at EWR. United, has the opposite, therefore making connections nearly impossible.

While some may say UA wants to make EWR more O&D, this trend has seemed to be more about the regional flying rather than the mainline connections. I have gathered this data both from personal experience and the passenger statistics released from the airport. Could Kirby (a genius) possibly be suggesting the carriers shift to EWR to better benefit from the joint venture? UA could than the receive slots the others vacated and return to the highly desired JFK market all while capitalizing with more connections. UA themselves have stated that their biggest problem with a return to JFK is the lack of a bunch of slots at once.
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: updated title for clarity
 
SoEWR
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:39 am

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:29 am

United has this problem with some other Star Alliance members too, almost all of them fly to JFK, and some don’t fly to EWR at all. Somehow United will make it work, I suppose
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6172
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:49 am

That’s more Smiseks line of thinking. It was he who sold off JFK slots and the airline later admitted it was a mistake.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1088
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:16 am

That seems like an awful lot of work for a handful of JFK slots. What if the South American airline says no, they want to stay at JFK and not move to EWR? Then what would UA do?

Also, I thought there were slots available at JFK at off times, just not at peak times. Do these airlines even have peak-time slots that UA wants?
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
N649DL
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:54 am

UA should merge with JetBlue. Case Closed. They can then give up EWR presence and make it even more competitive in favor of JFK (Where they Need Presence at.)

FYI: Kirby isn't a genius, he's another lapdog who's gracious at UA because AA didn't end his career like Parker wanted to do.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1215
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:10 am

Seems like it would be cheaper to just buy the JFK slots.
 
bluecrew
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:38 am

N649DL wrote:
UA should merge with JetBlue. Case Closed. They can then give up EWR presence and make it even more competitive in favor of JFK (Where they Need Presence at.)

FYI: Kirby isn't a genius, he's another lapdog who's gracious at UA because AA didn't end his career like Parker wanted to do.

Doesn't work... not enough slots in JFK.
 
Max Q
Posts: 8438
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:45 am

N649DL wrote:
UA should merge with JetBlue. Case Closed. They can then give up EWR presence and make it even more competitive in favor of JFK (Where they Need Presence at.)

FYI: Kirby isn't a genius, he's another lapdog who's gracious at UA because AA didn't end his career like Parker wanted to do.



EWR is one of the Crown Jewels in the UA system and they would never give it up,
that would be madness


UA should invest in a return to and a permanent presence in JFK however, it’s too valuable a market to ignore


Not sure whether that should be through a Jet Blue acquisition or not though, while their franchise in Florida would plug a big hole and be a great asset, any merger requiring a big divestment in EWR would not be
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
YYZORD
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:32 pm

How many unused slots are available at JFK now?
 
Austin787
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:11 pm

Kirby could buy his former airline's unused slots
 
tphuang
Posts: 5215
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:22 pm

EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs, but it might be its most important. Amongst the legacies, UA is easily the most profitable in NYC. And its market dominance allows UA to capture ff, corporate contract that help the rest of its network. Kirby would argue that some type of presence in JFK would further aid its presence in NYC and nationwide. And I'd agree with that. It makes no sense for UA to not maintain its position in EWR.

Also, UA partners don't have enough well timed slots at JFK to be worthwhile for UA.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5679
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:33 pm

Austin787 wrote:

Kirby could buy his former airline's unused slots


I don't see AA selling slots to UA when they know darn well what routes UA would fly. LAX/SFO. Two of AA's prime JFK markets.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
Kilgen
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:56 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:38 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
While some may say UA wants to make EWR more O&D, this trend has seemed to be more about the regional flying rather than the mainline connections. I have gathered this data both from personal experience and the passenger statistics released from the airport. Could Kirby (a genius) possibly be suggesting the carriers shift to EWR to better benefit from the joint venture? UA could than the receive slots the others vacated and return to the highly desired JFK market all while capitalizing with more connections. UA themselves have stated that their biggest problem with a return to JFK is the lack of a bunch of slots at once.


I doubt CM will shift to EWR, as they already have a codeshare with UA on the PTY-EWR flight. Also, CM has not flown to any of the old CO hubs from PTY as those flights are done by UA in their current codeshare agreement (i.e. EWR or IAH).
 
N649DL
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs, but it might be its most important. Amongst the legacies, UA is easily the most profitable in NYC. And its market dominance allows UA to capture ff, corporate contract that help the rest of its network. Kirby would argue that some type of presence in JFK would further aid its presence in NYC and nationwide. And I'd agree with that. It makes no sense for UA to not maintain its position in EWR.

Also, UA partners don't have enough well timed slots at JFK to be worthwhile for UA.


I was always under the impression that EWR was always profitable for UA and CO, JFK was not (but UA shrunk it's operation down during BK at Kennedy, also a factor) but I'm willing to be they are not the most profitable carrier in the NYC area. Ever since EWR got rid of it's slots and UA couldn't squat on them, the LCC's came in have somewhat eroded their domestic market share. Not a ton, but UA has lost market share at EWR as a result over the last few years.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:24 pm

Why did United completely drop JFK? Why did they not keep the valuable slots by flying small planes hub-to-JFK with their ex-P.S. flights?

That seems like madness to me.
 
Northpole
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:34 pm

At least United ( Continental?) managed to get SAS to shift from JFK to EWR
EWR is Jersey :)
 
xxcr
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:37 pm

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:36 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
That’s more Smiseks line of thinking. It was he who sold off JFK slots and the airline later admitted it was a mistake.



Nothing Smisek did made sense!!!!! Selling the JFK slots was a huge mistake!!! i must admit though, flying into EWR is much nicer and easier than JFK.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4297
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:08 pm

If United was truly itching to get back into JFK they would do it. Money talks and they could scrounge up a dozen slots in the times they would need. I took Kirby's comments regarding regretting pulling out as "it would be nice if the opportunity presented itself, but we aren't actively shopping". Kind of like we all do when there's something we want to buy but don't need right away. Some day you'll walk into the store and it will be half price and you'll decide to do it.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:26 pm

Northpole wrote:
At least United ( Continental?) managed to get SAS to shift from JFK to EWR
EWR is Jersey :)

I flew EWR-LHR in BA in ‘97, and the gate beside mine was an SK flight to CPH. So SK were flying to EWR long before CO joined Star, and while UA was operating to both EWR/JFK?
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 613
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:37 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Northpole wrote:
At least United ( Continental?) managed to get SAS to shift from JFK to EWR
EWR is Jersey :)

I flew EWR-LHR in BA in ‘97, and the gate beside mine was an SK flight to CPH. So SK were flying to EWR long before CO joined Star, and while UA was operating to both EWR/JFK?


Yeah, SK has been a long-time EWR resident
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Theory; United Road to Redemption, via a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:25 pm

xxcr wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
That’s more Smiseks line of thinking. It was he who sold off JFK slots and the airline later admitted it was a mistake.



Nothing Smisek did made sense!!!!! Selling the JFK slots was a huge mistake!!! i must admit though, flying into EWR is much nicer and easier than JFK.


It made sense to him and he left a wealthy man and managed to avoid jail so far. I also doubt anything could damage his ego.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:48 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
Northpole wrote:
At least United ( Continental?) managed to get SAS to shift from JFK to EWR
EWR is Jersey :)

I flew EWR-LHR in BA in ‘97, and the gate beside mine was an SK flight to CPH. So SK were flying to EWR long before CO joined Star, and while UA was operating to both EWR/JFK?


Yeah, SK has been a long-time EWR resident


SAS actually took at equity stake in CO in the late 80s (IIRC). Hence their move from JFK to EWR in order to benefit from the CO feed. Although I believe they always operated out of Term B, and never co-located with CO.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2877
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:31 pm

N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs, but it might be its most important. Amongst the legacies, UA is easily the most profitable in NYC. And its market dominance allows UA to capture ff, corporate contract that help the rest of its network. Kirby would argue that some type of presence in JFK would further aid its presence in NYC and nationwide. And I'd agree with that. It makes no sense for UA to not maintain its position in EWR.

Also, UA partners don't have enough well timed slots at JFK to be worthwhile for UA.


I was always under the impression that EWR was always profitable for UA and CO, JFK was not (but UA shrunk it's operation down during BK at Kennedy, also a factor) but I'm willing to be they are not the most profitable carrier in the NYC area. Ever since EWR got rid of it's slots and UA couldn't squat on them, the LCC's came in have somewhat eroded their domestic market share. Not a ton, but UA has lost market share at EWR as a result over the last few years.


N649DL I think you misinterpreted what tphuang wrote.

What was actually written was EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs. The 2 most profitable hubs now according to Kirby are DEN and IAD for a number of reasons not withstanding the lower operating cost at those hubs. Having said that EWR is still a profitable hub for UA, and from the last update we got from Munoz and Kirby (which was last year) according to them UA at EWR was more profitable than any of the major U.S. carriers at JFK.
 
N649DL
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:33 pm

jayunited wrote:
N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs, but it might be its most important. Amongst the legacies, UA is easily the most profitable in NYC. And its market dominance allows UA to capture ff, corporate contract that help the rest of its network. Kirby would argue that some type of presence in JFK would further aid its presence in NYC and nationwide. And I'd agree with that. It makes no sense for UA to not maintain its position in EWR.

Also, UA partners don't have enough well timed slots at JFK to be worthwhile for UA.


I was always under the impression that EWR was always profitable for UA and CO, JFK was not (but UA shrunk it's operation down during BK at Kennedy, also a factor) but I'm willing to be they are not the most profitable carrier in the NYC area. Ever since EWR got rid of it's slots and UA couldn't squat on them, the LCC's came in have somewhat eroded their domestic market share. Not a ton, but UA has lost market share at EWR as a result over the last few years.


N649DL I think you misinterpreted what tphuang wrote.

What was actually written was EWR is not one of UA's most profitable hubs. The 2 most profitable hubs now according to Kirby are DEN and IAD for a number of reasons not withstanding the lower operating cost at those hubs. Having said that EWR is still a profitable hub for UA, and from the last update we got from Munoz and Kirby (which was last year) according to them UA at EWR was more profitable than any of the major U.S. carriers at JFK.


Figures. And Smisek wanted to downsize and/or close both DEN and IAD at one point. I thought SFO was among the most profitable?

Maybe EWR isn't as profitable as DEN and IAD because of the high landing fees IDK?
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:45 pm

Nope - in the 1990s, for awhile, SK departures definitely occurred in terminal C. I remember seeing their flights there many times during transit at EWR. Not sure when they moved to B for departures, but departures were definitely at C in the 1990s for a time.


airzim wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
I flew EWR-LHR in BA in ‘97, and the gate beside mine was an SK flight to CPH. So SK were flying to EWR long before CO joined Star, and while UA was operating to both EWR/JFK?


Yeah, SK has been a long-time EWR resident


SAS actually took at equity stake in CO in the late 80s (IIRC). Hence their move from JFK to EWR in order to benefit from the CO feed. Although I believe they always operated out of Term B, and never co-located with CO.
 
Northpole
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:45 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Bhoy wrote:
Northpole wrote:
At least United ( Continental?) managed to get SAS to shift from JFK to EWR
EWR is Jersey :)

I flew EWR-LHR in BA in ‘97, and the gate beside mine was an SK flight to CPH. So SK were flying to EWR long before CO joined Star, and while UA was operating to both EWR/JFK?


Yeah, SK has been a long-time EWR resident


I stand corrected > I wrote United ( Continental ?) .... In 1989 SK bought 18 % of Texas Air Corp > ( Continental ) and started a coop with CO to feed between the USA and STO-CPH-OSL
They started out using their 767:s
As far as I remember they used their 747:s and DC10:s to/from JFK.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2180
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:54 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
UA is currently in the process of forming a joint venture throughout South America with Avianca, Azul, and Copa. While the JV should be extremely beneficial on both ends does UA have something more to benefit from it than the others? Combined Avianca and Copa have quite a few slots at JFK but a limited and nonexistent presence at EWR. United, has the opposite, therefore making connections nearly impossible.

While some may say UA wants to make EWR more O&D, this trend has seemed to be more about the regional flying rather than the mainline connections. I have gathered this data both from personal experience and the passenger statistics released from the airport. Could Kirby (a genius) possibly be suggesting the carriers shift to EWR to better benefit from the joint venture? UA could than the receive slots the others vacated and return to the highly desired JFK market all while capitalizing with more connections. UA themselves have stated that their biggest problem with a return to JFK is the lack of a bunch of slots at once.


Why would the partner carriers agree to that? They'd be moving to EWR - an airport they have demonstrated through their behavior to the present is less-preferred - and then functionally giving the slots to UA for free. If they were interested in moving, they could just sell the slots at JFK, presumably for a lot of money. What you propose makes a ton of sense for UA and essentially none for the other carriers.
 
HunterATL
Posts: 66
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:55 pm

No airline is going to buy slots at JFK until the fate of the slot order is determined. Why spend large sums of money to acquire slots which could become worthless on October 24, 2020?
 
jayunited
Posts: 2877
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:03 am

N649DL wrote:
Figures. And Smisek wanted to downsize and/or close both DEN and IAD at one point. I thought SFO was among the most profitable?

Maybe EWR isn't as profitable as DEN and IAD because of the high landing fees IDK?


Another issue that has effected EWR's place on the list is the tax hike on jet fuel. I believe it was some time last year where the NJ senate raised taxes on jet fuel purchased at EWR. In the past airlines were only paying taxes on the fuel burned while within NJ airspace. With this new law airlines now have to pay taxes on all fuel purchased at EWR. Also a quick side note originally the NJ senate only wanted this new law to apply to United Airlines because they felt it would negatively impact smaller carriers. However I believe UA filed a complaint with the FAA and this tax increase now applies to all carriers at EWR.

As I said before our executives say EWR is still profitable how it is no longer UA's most profitable hub, it is probably number 3 or 4 on the list of profitability.
 
rj1385
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:40 am

I would assume that there is better connections to be had than coming to either EWR or JFK. I would think using IAH and IAD to move connecting traffic through would make more sense in a joint venture. All in JV would capitalize on on O+D coming from NY.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2363
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 am

HunterATL wrote:
No airline is going to buy slots at JFK until the fate of the slot order is determined. Why spend large sums of money to acquire slots which could become worthless on October 24, 2020?


No contract is going to lack a contingency for such an event. The amount would most likely be prorated over a period of time (say 10 years) and UA would pay based on that proration, maybe with a small additional sum.

If an airline wants the slots now, it will buy them.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:45 am

Kilgen wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
While some may say UA wants to make EWR more O&D, this trend has seemed to be more about the regional flying rather than the mainline connections. I have gathered this data both from personal experience and the passenger statistics released from the airport. Could Kirby (a genius) possibly be suggesting the carriers shift to EWR to better benefit from the joint venture? UA could than the receive slots the others vacated and return to the highly desired JFK market all while capitalizing with more connections. UA themselves have stated that their biggest problem with a return to JFK is the lack of a bunch of slots at once.


I doubt CM will shift to EWR, as they already have a codeshare with UA on the PTY-EWR flight. Also, CM has not flown to any of the old CO hubs from PTY as those flights are done by UA in their current codeshare agreement (i.e. EWR or IAH).
CM will definitely stay in JFK but chances of CM at HOU, since CM codeshares on UA IAH-PTY could be possible.
Re:AV and UA, if AV has code-share on UA EWR-Colombia flights, it won't be flying the same routes UA does between EWR and Colombia.
IMHO, the only reason why UA would want JFK slots might be to offer some daily flights between JFK and its IAD and/or ORD and/or IAH hubs; maybe even a SFO flight, all those timed to connect with as many Star Alliance international flights as possible.
And regarding Houston, there's probably a demand right now for a IAH-JFK (same for a EWR-HOU) 1-2 times per day, depending day of the week.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Could UA gets JFK slots through a JV?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:43 am

rj1385 wrote:
I would assume that there is better connections to be had than coming to either EWR or JFK. I would think using IAH and IAD to move connecting traffic through would make more sense in a joint venture. All in JV would capitalize on on O+D coming from NY.


Finally a common sense post. There is no need to use EWR or JFK for connections to South America. It's an illogical connecting point for any destination other than BOS or New England. Copa already flies to IAD, ORD, DEN, LAX, and SFO, and Avianca already flies to IAD and LAX. All of those airports are better connecting points than JFK or EWR.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos