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sonicruiser
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Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:48 am

I recall hearing there being some sort of anti-missile system for civilian aircraft opting for extra protection over conflict zones. Is this a good idea, and will it reduce the possibility of defending against an accidental shootdown? In theory, such a system would have to engage automatically as pilots would't be able to react quickly enough.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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MrHMSH
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:50 am

Airline shoot downs are very rare, but despite what is a low risk overall the plane would have to carry the weight of the system each and every time it flies. Easier and cheaper to just identify when war zones become dangerous.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:54 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Airline shoot downs are very rare, but despite what is a low risk overall the plane would have to carry the weight of the system each and every time it flies. Easier and cheaper to just identify when war zones become dangerous.


Is such an anti-missile system an electronic jamming system or an actual counter missile? I doubt any US or European airline would spend money on this given the safety of the US and Europe. However, for an airline like Turkish or flydubai flying to some very dangerous places, I could see the potential benefits of such a system outweighing the costs. Turkish or flydubai, or other airlines using such a system may actually be able to raise their fares on the basis of additional safety compared to other airlines flying to those destinations without such a system.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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uta999
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:00 am

Surely it would be quicker and easier to provide Flightradar24 to all military units, who are stupid enough to shoot at an airliner, lit up like a Christmas tree flying out of an international airport.
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dik909
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:07 am

uta999 wrote:
Surely it would be quicker and easier to provide Flightradar24 to all military units, who are stupid enough to shoot at an airliner, lit up like a Christmas tree flying out of an international airport.


This !! :D
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:13 am

There are apparatii that try to throw of infrared-homing missiles by giving irritating signals to their sensors.

AFAIK, some Israeli airlines have fitted them. But for the rest, it's just too expensive.

AN/ALQ-144 of Marine One as an example: http://cryptome.org/eyeball/hmx1-ircm/hmx1-ircm.htm
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:16 am

El Al aircrafts are fitted with laser-based counter-measures (Commercial Multi-Spectral Infrared Countermeasures, made by Elbit).

Each system weights around 160kg, really good stuff. Less prone to incidents than the previous flare-based solution.

But as said above, FR24 for dumb AA operators would be less expensive.
Last edited by LaunchDetected on Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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EXMEMWIDGET
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:16 am

I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.
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VSMUT
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:39 am

sonicruiser wrote:
I recall hearing there being some sort of anti-missile system for civilian aircraft opting for extra protection over conflict zones. Is this a good idea, and will it reduce the possibility of defending against an accidental shootdown? In theory, such a system would have to engage automatically as pilots would't be able to react quickly enough.


The UIA plane was not flying in a conflict zone though (at least not a conflict zone when it departed Kiev for Tehran).

Preventing civilian aircraft from entering conflict zones (at least inadvertently) is way better. Missile defence systems are expensive, maintenance intensive and likely require specific training in order to be effective. Just keep them out of conflict zones to begin with. No airliner should even have been close to Eastern Ukraine during those weeks. At the beginning of a flare up is more difficult, but given how spontaneously it turned from peaceful to conflict, airlines wouldn't have been able to react and send anti-missile equipped aircraft in time anyway.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:37 pm

EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.


How do these laser defense systems work exactly?
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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Bradin
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:43 pm

It's a giant cat and mouse game situation combined by some monday night quarterbacking.

Hypothetically let's assume these systems get integrated onto all planes and a missile strike happens. Then there are questions of "why didn't those systems work in the first place and protect those innocent people?"

Note: I'm not saying don't install these systems/defenses. I'm saying the same individuals will likely be equally upset in the future. There is a class of people out there that simply aims for checklists - expecting whatever installed will work for all situations for all of eternity.
Last edited by Bradin on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:45 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.


How do these laser defense systems work exactly?

The problem with putting them on civilian airliners is that if your anti-missile system works someone is going to put it on military aircraft and then someone develops counters to it.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:00 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.


How do these laser defense systems work exactly?

The problem with putting them on civilian airliners is that if your anti-missile system works someone is going to put it on military aircraft and then someone develops counters to it.


A lot of military aircraft already have such systems installed but you're right, there are always countermeasure systems being developed.
 
nikeherc
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:18 pm

There are many forms of anti-aircraft systems. Some are either infrared or radar homing systems. Some are radar command guidance. Some fly in tail chase mode, some in a snap-up trajectory and some are guided to a predicted intercept point. Some are man-portable (MANPADs) some are motorized and some are mobile. The only really effective countermeasure systems that an airliner could carry would work only against infrared MANPADs. Remember that chaff and flares are pyrotechnic devices which present their own issues of safety. Military grade systems usually require some form of extreme evasive maneuvers which might not be acceptable for airliners.

The system that the Isreal aircraft use would be most effective against terrorists with MANPADs. There’s not a bunch that an airliner could do against a sophisticated military system except stay out of range.
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9MMPQ
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:19 pm

It's a moot point, the available systems only deal with heat seeking threats. Dealing with radar guided missiles would need electronics the likes of what the EA-6B or EA-18G are carrying and even then a commercial airliner remains a large, slow, unmanoeuvrable target that stands no chance.
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mxaxai
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:45 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.


How do these laser defense systems work exactly?

AFAIK they detect a potential missile (probably from its heat signature) and shine a relatively powerful laser at it in the hope of blinding or confusing the missile's infrared seeker enough that it misses the target. Some military aircraft also use this, although they still seem to prefer flares.
These systems would not have any effect on the radar guided missiles that took down MH17 and potentially PS752. There are multiple approaches against radar guided missiles, though the development of stealth jets indicates that not being detected in the first place is the preferable one. Outrunning and/or outmaneuvering missiles is also very popular, as are preemptive strikes to destroy the launchers. None of these options are available to civilian jets. Radar can be jammed, again to confuse the missile, but that requires a fairly complex & powerful counter-radar, like on the EA-18G. Some jets can throw chaff but like flares this is usually limited to agile military aircraft.
In the continuous race between SAM developers and military jet developers, civilian technology is bound to lag behind. IR systems can help against MANPADS but that's the most we can reasonably expect.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:45 pm

I’d rather just not fly over an area where there is a threat of being shot down, but that’s just me.
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mwhcvt
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:45 pm

Risk vs reward is just not justifiable when an aircraft can just be routed different or flights to the affected area cancelled
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
DDR
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:01 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I’d rather just not fly over an area where there is a threat of being shot down, but that’s just me.


That is the best idea. Keep commercial aircraft out of harm's way.
 
uta999
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:23 am

Another idea perhaps is to provide Flightradar24 (Gold) to all 'military' units, who are stupid enough to shoot at an airliner, lit up like a Christmas tree flying out of an international airport. That includes the Americans.
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VV
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:44 am

Should any commercial passenger airliner fly over a conflict zone at all?
 
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keesje
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:39 pm

After this one and MH17, authorities will no doubt review..
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Wf789
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:13 pm

uta999 wrote:
Another idea perhaps is to provide Flightradar24 (Gold) to all 'military' units, who are stupid enough to shoot at an airliner, lit up like a Christmas tree flying out of an international airport. That includes the Americans.


Nobody would equip their missiles with an item identifying itself as a civil aircraft then.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:13 pm

VV wrote:
Should any commercial passenger airliner fly over a conflict zone at all?

There are many conflict zones. You'd need to stop overflying the entire middle east, most of northern africa, parts of south america and a decent number of pacific islands. Unless there's an all out war with a no-fly zone (like in Libya or Syria), it's a bit difficult to determine just how threatening to civil aviation a conflict is. Also, people still want to travel even if their country, or adjacent countries, is in a conflict zone.

A better solution could be tight control over radar-guided missiles (i. e. only well organized national militaries have them, no delivering missiles to unstable countries or random militias), and force countries to give prior warning to the international community if they want to launch airstrikes at other countries (i. e. be at war or declare a potential airstrike period). This would prevent the current situation where countries who are technically not at war have to fear incoming airstrikes from each other.

As it stands, countries can attack hostile 'terrorists' anywhere in the world without political consequences. So any country that harbors terrorists, or really any group of people that somebody else calls 'terrorists', is at risk of random airstrikes. China could decide to blow up some Uigurs in the US without fearing reprisal. Naturally, any country that prefers to not let that happen needs to always be on alert and shoot down any intruding aircraft if necessary.
 
VV
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:07 pm

mxaxai wrote:
VV wrote:
Should any commercial passenger airliner fly over a conflict zone at all?

There are many conflict zones. You'd need to stop overflying the entire middle east, most of northern africa, parts of south america and a decent number of pacific islands. Unless there's an all out war with a no-fly zone (like in Libya or Syria), it's a bit difficult to determine just how threatening to civil aviation a conflict is. Also, people still want to travel even if their country, or adjacent countries, is in a conflict zone.
...


Then be it.

Stop flying to those areas unless you accept the risk of being shot down by mistake.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:20 pm

There’s a lesson from how the FAA implemented SCATANA on 9/11, ground stops for aircraft on the ground, emergency and directed diversion of those airborne and turn the airspace over to military control.

GF
 
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:24 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?


No need for this technology, or for the added expense to commercial carriers. The obvious and better solution would be to simply not fly to/from conflict zones AT ALL. Ban all commercial services to/from conflict zones, as well as all overflights of conflict zones until the conflict has ended.

The sad reality brought to light from this disaster is that this could have been ANY airline serving Tehran. It just happened to be Ukrainian International Airlines. No commercial airline should have been flying to/from IKA when antimissile systems were armed and actively defending Iranian airspace. This is a tragic and major error and was completely avoidable.
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:25 pm

keesje wrote:
After this one and MH17, authorities will no doubt review..

The appropriate mechanism is insurance companies and Leasing companies. They will have the final say as they will price better in the future.

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JayinKitsap
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 pm

Chicago has banned hand guns for decades, yet several of its neighborhoods have daily shootings, brings up the "If we ban guns, only the outlaws with have them!" problem.

There is a lot of risk with self defense systems - flares & explosives require special handling, etc. These should not be on airliners.
 
Data5
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:08 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
EXMEMWIDGET wrote:
I remember FedEx was testing one out on an MD-11 back in the mid 2000.


How do these laser defense systems work exactly?

The problem with putting them on civilian airliners is that if your anti-missile system works someone is going to put it on military aircraft and then someone develops counters to it.


It may be that only Nato/Russia has anti jamming SAM while it will work on ISIS missiles from the 80s. But I agree that it will probably not be efficient. Iran's air defense should be defending against the most advanced US bombers which would have much more defences than what civilian aircraft could get.
 
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:36 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
I’d rather just not fly over an area where there is a threat of being shot down, but that’s just me.


This is the answer. Of course there will always be accidents (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_A ... light_1812) but overall airspace avoidance is the best prevention.
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:42 am

The Tor M1 used in this accident is a very ECM-resistant weapon system. It is specifically designed for low-altitude intercept (less than 10,000 ft.), is highly-maneuverable and very fast with interceptor speeds up to Mach 2.8. The EC-CM design of the seeker/guidance system of the interceptor is designed to ignore chaff, flares and frequency jamming. But in the event that jamming does occur, the KV is designed to immediately change guidance frequencies, or failing that, continue on its last verified intercept trajectory, which also has a "lead" factored in to predict the flight path of the target. Also, even if an airliner had a radar warning receiver, the relative lack a manueverability of an airliner would make intercept avoidance near-impossible. High-performance fighter aircraft might be able to react in time, but an airliner cannot.

As for equipping an airliner with a radar jammer, this would consist of an expensive, fairly large, electrical power-hungry & technically complex subsystem. And then the airliner would be very restricted as to when the pilots could activate the system. One area where a jammer could defintely not be used is in a busy airport's airspace under ASR control for fear of jamming the ATC's radar screens and possibly leading to mid-air collisions.

As for IR-guided MANPADS the issues are the difficulty of interceptor launch detection and having to deploy flares in an attempt to decoy the interceptor away from its target. Airliners carrying ordnance such as ECM flares would be inherently dangerous, especially in the event of a runway excursion or a rejected takeoff. While it is true that some specialized aircraft such as the Boeing 747 used for Air Force One is equipped with such countermeasures, keep in mind that AF1 is special mission military aircraft, not a commerical airliner.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:54 am

A better idea would be to not fly through areas of conflict.

Or, advertise the arrivals and departures publicly, even resorting to things like Twitter and the local newspapers, to make sure that the combatant forces on each side know about transiting aircraft. Seriously, go overboard. You also have to look at it this way. Active and even passive threat detection and deterrence systems aboard commercial airlines might actually attract more negative attention than one might expect. A miss due to anti-missile systems might well attract more missiles as the launch crew interprets the miss as interference from a hostile aircraft's defensive systems instead of a peaceful airliner.

In the end, simply avoiding areas of conflict as much as is possible is likely the best thing to do.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:05 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
A better idea would be to not fly through areas of conflict.

Or, advertise the arrivals and departures publicly, even resorting to things like Twitter and the local newspapers, to make sure that the combatant forces on each side know about transiting aircraft. Seriously, go overboard. You also have to look at it this way. Active and even passive threat detection and deterrence systems aboard commercial airlines might actually attract more negative attention than one might expect. A miss due to anti-missile systems might well attract more missiles as the launch crew interprets the miss as interference from a hostile aircraft's defensive systems instead of a peaceful airliner.

In the end, simply avoiding areas of conflict as much as is possible is likely the best thing to do.


Advertising arrivals and departures publicly... Isn't that called a flight plan?

I'd highly doubt that any military would have people watching twitter to make sure they're not shooting down civilian aircraft...
 
Rossiya747
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:33 am

I believe that El Al has antimissile things installed on all of its planes. Flares, i think,
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:00 am

As others have said, the best missile defense is avoiding missiles.

It would cost too much, way too much. Maybe you could equip certain aircraft going to certain areas (as we've seen some carriers do) but other than that, waste of money.

And if you don't think human life has a value, you're mistaken. We do cost-benefit analysis all the time. We accept risk and potential deaths because the alternatives cost too much. I'd say this is a perfect example... We'll risk a few hundred deaths in a decade and save tens of hundreds of millions probably. Flame away but that's how the world works

(And before anyone responds, of course I'm not saying we scrap every safety measure to save a buck. It's an analysis and 100% safety is prohibitively expensive and impossible)
 
Kikko19
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:44 am

Simply stop flying over these areas.
 
mmo
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:48 am

In theory, having a missile defense system on a commercial airliner makes sense. However, in practice, it presents all sorts of issues. I worked for 3 years for a VVIP operation in AUH. They had two 744s equipped with an IR defense system. It was a nightmare going into most airports. The aircraft had to be parked in a remote spot because of the flares, some airports such as LHR would not allow the aircraft to operate in/out with the IR system operational. It was bad enough traveling with a security detail that had weapons but adding the IR defense system was a royal PITA.
The simple solution is to avoid conflict areas.
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marcelh
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:51 am

Maybe the “civilised” world should put more effort in trying to de-escalate and prevent a crisis like this one.
 
TN486T
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:02 am

Kikko19 wrote:
Simply stop flying over these areas.

ditto, ditto, and more ditto. This should have been post 2 on this thread. common sense really.
 
AYVN
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:31 am

Maybe international treaty that would make ADS-B receivers mandatory to all active SAM operators. If SAM operators aren't equipped with ADS-B receiver should that affected area be no fly zone. Or at least the no fly zone should be under safe altitude for known threats, for countries that are not entirely under control of their government.
 
Kikko19
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:22 pm

AYVN wrote:
Maybe international treaty that would make ADS-B receivers mandatory to all active SAM operators. If SAM operators aren't equipped with ADS-B receiver should that affected area be no fly zone. Or at least the no fly zone should be under safe altitude for known threats, for countries that are not entirely under control of their government.

I don't think the guys with the fingers on the trigger at the batteries do care or have time if they sense the danger. They would be the first target of any airstrike. So they have the "first shot and then ask" policy. That's why I won't fly any route going up there for a while, even if the risk is remote.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:13 pm

I think mmo explained very well. They will be a real pain and costly to operate. Round the clock security and background checks on every GHA/line-MX at every airport???

With twin engine aircraft, single engine ceiling is the biggest risk over conflict zones. Better to avoid completely.
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Antaras
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:21 pm

Say "Hello" to El Al, the one who installed anti-missile system on their airframes couples of years ago.
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P/s: I will be the 7749th member surfing this thread who agree:
Kikko19 wrote:
Simply stop flying over these areas.
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johhnieonion
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:25 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Simply stop flying over these areas.


Most reputable airlines have AFAIK. Emirates continues to overfly Iraq even though its airspace is designated as the highest level of risk on Safe Airspace.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:37 pm

However. El Al's anti-missile installation is a good (and compulsory choice) when Israel has conflicts with almost every.single.country.around.Israel and El Al has to fly through those countries on every international flight.
---
Carriers still need to avoid hot-temp areas as far as possible. Flying over those areas was proven as big mistake since decades ago.
1. If MAS had chosen to avoid Ukraine's airspace, where was the civil war happening, now we don't have to care about the painful keyword "MH17"
2. The same with UIA when it didn't choose to suspend Iran flights (while other carriers were announcing some big suspension and rerouting the flights which related to the Gulf area); and everyone has known what happened.
Same stories with JAL's 747 shot down by Soviet, or Iranian A300 shot down by the US.
:(
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CheckNorris
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Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:24 pm

Rossiya747 wrote:
I believe that El Al has antimissile things installed on all of its planes. Flares, i think,


None of the El-Al planes have flares but some of them are equipped with El-Op's C-MUSIC (Commercial Multi-Spectral Infrared Countermeasures) based on the DIRCM (Directed Infrared Countermeasure) principle.

The system was developed following the launch of two SA-7s at Arkia's B753 (4X-BAW; sold to Icelandair in 2018, re-registered as TF-ISX) that took off from Mombasa, Kenya on 28 November, 2002. This device, however, is designed to defeat heat-seeking MANPADS in the vicinity of airports rather than radar guided SAMs at cruising altitudes.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:06 pm

Antaras wrote:
However. El Al's anti-missile installation is a good (and compulsory choice) when Israel has conflicts with almost every.single.country.around.Israel and El Al has to fly through those countries on every international flight.
---
Carriers still need to avoid hot-temp areas as far as possible. Flying over those areas was proven as big mistake since decades ago.
1. If MAS had chosen to avoid Ukraine's airspace, where was the civil war happening, now we don't have to care about the painful keyword "MH17"
2. The same with UIA when it didn't choose to suspend Iran flights (while other carriers were announcing some big suspension and rerouting the flights which related to the Gulf area); and everyone has known what happened.
Same stories with JAL's 747 shot down by Soviet, or Iranian A300 shot down by the US.
:(

Golden words! Risk the life to save some fuel? Not on my wallet.
 
2175301
Posts: 1737
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:07 pm

AYVN wrote:
Maybe international treaty that would make ADS-B receivers mandatory to all active SAM operators. If SAM operators aren't equipped with ADS-B receiver should that affected area be no fly zone. Or at least the no fly zone should be under safe altitude for known threats, for countries that are not entirely under control of their government.


Totally ineffective. A very real problem is that attacks have occurred with military aircraft spoofing civilian transponders (I understand that multiple nations have done this). That was one of the factors in the IA Flight 655. While it was appropriately squawking as a civilian air craft - the US Navy had picked up military transponders in the region from which it appeared from. All it takes is a flip of a switch to change transponders in certain military aircraft.

Thus a civilian transponder does not always mean a civilian aircraft; and air defense crews are trained about that.

A related problem is most radar systems are not advanced enough to provide much information about what is out there. is it a small return, a large return; what are the possible sources for a radar return of that strength at that distance? A wide open question:

In the military world a large aircraft can have a small return (I read that the SR-71 Blackbird had the radar return of a metal object the size of a basketball - it was an early stealth technology aircraft (and the F-117 the size of a large children's marble when its bomb bay doors are closed - it could be tracked from the side when they opened the bomb bay doors); and certain smaller aircraft can have a large return (F-14's with gravity bombs attached have a large radar return - comparatively speaking). I have no idea about how small the F-22, F-25 and other modern aircraft look.

Now in certain cases specialized radar can determine more (some military radars could determine the number of inlet fan blades on an exposed inlet jet engines); but, those specialized radars would not be used for a system like the SA-15.

Unfortunately, the only real solution is to avoid military conflict zones; and to have well trained and cautious missile operators in areas that are not combat zones (the USA has anti-aircraft missile batteries near several large US commercial airports... and we have had no shoot-downs in the USA. I would not have necessarily classified Tehran as a "combat zone."

In my opinion, this is a major mistake made by the missile battery commander - and only that. I'm not sure how you prevent those kinds of mistakes in most militaries in the world.

Have a great day,
 
Dogbreath
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:49 am

Re: Should civil aircraft in conflict zones be equipped with anti-missile systems?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:24 pm

Antares wrote:
Same stories with JAL's 747 shot down by Soviet, or Iranian A300 shot down by the US.
:(


You mean KAL's 747 shot down by Soviet. It wasn't Japan Air Lines.

Dog.
Truth, Honour, Loyalty

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