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fessor
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:55 am

What About TG, to replace A330CEO, B777-200, B777-300 and 777-200ER, they have 33.
But then again their financial situation is not the best.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:53 am

dstblj52 wrote:
Delta is an opportunist buyer, which means you can sell them end of the line aircraft or aircraft with a bad history, or unusual configs, etc.

Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

That should be interesting...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:40 am

I'm secretly hoping this is Air Greenland, with huge expansion ambitions ala Icelandair

The A330neo wearing the all red livery + raccoon mask would look amazing. :cloudnine:
 
smi0006
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:55 am

fessor wrote:
What About TG, to replace A330CEO, B777-200, B777-300 and 777-200ER, they have 33.
But then again their financial situation is not the best.


That would be sensible, fleet consolidation is desperately needed at TG — that’s also why it’s unlikely lol.

40 is a big number for many legacy airlines who often make incremental orders. My bet is CN3
 
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Antaras
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:58 am

AirwayBill wrote:
I'm secretly hoping this is Air Greenland, with huge expansion ambitions ala Icelandair

The A330neo wearing the all red livery + raccoon mask would look amazing. :cloudnine:


It makes no sense to mention GL as it's operating exactly one 21.4-year-old A332, alongside with 7x Dash 8.
I'm pretty sure that GL won't order up to 40x A330N whether how big is GL's expansion plans, except when GL wants to become the second Bamboo Airways :lol: .

P/s: there are rumors saying that GL is eyeing up to two A338s.
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Antaras
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:06 am

The customer may be some big LCCs who have already operate WBs or some LCCs eyeing WBs for long-haul operation. Let me guess: jetBlue, AirAsia, Indigo, Norweigan (as they are sicking of the troublesome Trent 1000 on their 787s) or even Vietjet. Moreover, I can't except a bunch of Chinese carriers (including mainland carriers such as CN3, CX from Hong Kong, CI from Taiwan/RoC...)
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jules48
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:11 am

IAG.To split between BA,IB etc
 
F100Flyer
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:45 am

AirwayBill wrote:
I'm secretly hoping this is Air Greenland, with huge expansion ambitions ala Icelandair

The A330neo wearing the all red livery + raccoon mask would look amazing. :cloudnine:


So they can operate out of their newly expanded, overseas hub at Exeter :smile:
 
ba319-131
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:22 am

jules48 wrote:
IAG.To split between BA,IB etc


- highly unlikely

Agree with a few others, suspect ordered by China to split between the big 3.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
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Polot
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:34 am

BN727227Ultra wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
My gut reaction was DL as well given the size of their existing A339 order.


It's been asserted that Airbus doesn't include non-binding LOIs in orders. If it's firm, DL needed to disclose it. Two+ weeks have passed since Airbus' order date and DL has no relevant SEC filing, so I'll say it's not DL - with some confidence.

I think Chinese government, with allocations to specific carriers to be firmed later, is the right answer.


Has DL actually completed the LATAM buy? It's a stretch, but could LATAM be buying them on behalf of Delta and Virgin Atlantic?

Why would LATAM, after giving away part of their A350 order, buy 40 A330s on behalf of one airline that only owns 20% of them and another airline they have no connection to?

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Favre4 wrote:
jethawk wrote:
Would it be plausible for Virgin Atlantic to take delivery of these birds and lease them to DL?


Why wouldn’t DL just buy them ?


Tariff avoidance? If the planes are transferred to the VS order book and then leased to DL, is DL ever sold the plane for purposes of tariffs against Airbus for a complete plane?

Unless DL is wet leasing the planes (which they can’t per union contracts) DL will be importing the planes to register them in the US and therefore need to pay the tariffs. Also blatantly circumventing tariffs is never a good look and can get you in trouble.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:23 pm

Yes, DL completed the purchase of its 20% equity stake. SEC filings in these matters are quick, public, and definitive.

'In accordance with the provisions of article 212 of the Securities Market Law and the provisions of General Regulation No. 104 of the CMF, the Offeror declares
the Offer successful and accepts and acquires 116,243,785 shares of LATAM and 5,037,753 ADS. Based on the foregoing, the Offeror becomes a direct and
indirect holder (through the ADS) of 121,281,538 LATAM shares, which represent 20% of LATAM’s issued, subscribed and paid-in shares.'

DL's filing from 12/30/19: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 761aae.pdf
 
dstblj52
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:25 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Delta is an opportunist buyer, which means you can sell them end of the line aircraft or aircraft with a bad history, or unusual configs, etc.

Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

That should be interesting...

Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:41 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Delta is an opportunist buyer, which means you can sell them end of the line aircraft or aircraft with a bad history, or unusual configs, etc.

Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

That should be interesting...

Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.


Delta is flying planes that are damaged and/or have nonexistent maintenance records?? Delta.

I guess if you have the kind of maint capabilities that DL does, you could bridge an aircraft as described by reinspecting the undocumented inspections. But "nonexistent" records? You would tear down the whole plane and inspect everything? That would, um, seem to add to its total price.
 
dstblj52
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:51 pm

wjcandee wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

That should be interesting...

Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.


Delta is flying planes that are damaged and/or have nonexistent maintenance records?? Delta.

I guess if you have the kind of maint capabilities that DL does, you could bridge an aircraft as described by reinspecting the undocumented inspections. But "nonexistent" records? You would tear down the whole plane and inspect everything? That would, um, seem to add to its total price.

Delta has been willing to buy aircraft that need work before being put into service, and generally in that condition need to give it a D-check, Engine overhaul, and compile the AD's and check they have been done, it's expensive but if you can get a big enough discount it can be cost-effective.
 
raylee67
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:18 pm

MCTSET wrote:
codyul wrote:

I'm liking all of this. I think with the MAX out, AC is seeing some positives to larger capacity, less frequency. At least that's what I'm hoping.



But they have 37 Dreamliner's why do they need NEO’s?


They have taken delivery of all their ordered 787 already and have not ordered more. However, they have kept their original A333 and have even bought a few used examples this year. Their A333 have almost an identical seat capacity (even between classes) as their 789. Apparently they are seeing some benefits of keeping the A330 around. May be they want to focus the 787 fleet with ultra-long routes (e.g. West Coast to Europe, Trans-Pacific, India, South America, etc.) and the A330 on the shorter ones (e.g. East Coast to Europe)? But it does seem that they are not going to replace the A333 with 787.

But on the other hand, they are now refurnishing their A333 fleet with new seats, etc. It is hard to see them getting rid of the A333 so soon and replace them with A339 right after refurnishing them. However, if they start replacing the 767s first with A339 and leave the A333 replacement to the tail end of a 40-plane A339 order, it may make sense.

Besides AC, I think CX will eventually ordered the A339 to replace their (and KA's) A333. Some of them are quite old already. If it were not because of the current situation in Hong Kong, I would totally think this is an order from CX. But I think now they want to preserve cash flow and would not make any order.

And then, don't forget Taiwan's China Airlines (CI). It has 23 A333s and 4 744s and does not have any aircraft ordered to replace these. The 744s are now used in short haul and medium haul routes. They are not flying across the Pacific. Using A339 to replace the 744s in this capacity is viable. Ordering 40 A339s to replace 23 A333s and 4 744s are entirely possible, with about 10 aircraft for expansion.
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Yes, DL completed the purchase of its 20% equity stake. SEC filings in these matters are quick, public, and definitive.

'In accordance with the provisions of article 212 of the Securities Market Law and the provisions of General Regulation No. 104 of the CMF, the Offeror declares
the Offer successful and accepts and acquires 116,243,785 shares of LATAM and 5,037,753 ADS. Based on the foregoing, the Offeror becomes a direct and
indirect holder (through the ADS) of 121,281,538 LATAM shares, which represent 20% of LATAM’s issued, subscribed and paid-in shares.'

DL's filing from 12/30/19: https://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/C ... 761aae.pdf


Thanks!
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:06 pm

I’m wondering if the reported fuel burn figures from the A339neo are opening a lot of eyes now. It’s reported from another thread that it is 5.3-5.4t/hr on 12 hr flights with ~40t payload.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:22 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Delta is an opportunist buyer, which means you can sell them end of the line aircraft or aircraft with a bad history, or unusual configs, etc.

Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.

Hmm, in the name of fairness, let's tap the brakes for a second and give you a choice:
    You can provide the tail numbers of any aircraft in the history of aviation that Delta has acquired for service with "non existent (sic) maintenance records," or...
    You can admit that you have no blessed clue what you're talking about.

Which will it be?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:48 pm

eagles94 wrote:
For arguments sake, could it not be on a less obvious underdog, like Jet2 or Wizz


I'd love it to be the case, but in short no. While Jet2 have grown rapidly in recent years, they have been pretty conservative in terms of aircraft acquisition. Aside from a slow and steady stream of new 737-800s which they ordered, they've picked up second-hand 737s to drive expansion and leased in metal seasonally where needed. They never seemed to be much interested in the MAX (prior to the troubles of course), either. Their existing A330 frame (AirTanker I believe) has 327 seats so an all A330neo order would basically double their available seats. Plus, they aren't slot restricted, so extra frequencies aren't a major issue.
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JamesCousins
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:00 pm

I'm seeing a split-China order being likely, with United and Delta also likely contenders. United needs to replace its 767s somehow, and in some cases the 787 is just too much metal. AA have clearly signaled a commitment to the 787 in terms of 767 replacement already. Time was ticking on the MOM 2 years ago, and it's now looking unclear whether Boeing will continue with the MOM at all - the likes of UA surely can't wait forever when the 767 is already a relic everywhere outside the US.

Delta have been pretty loyal to Airbus over the past few years (this isn't an A vs B thing at all, it's just factual when you break down DL's order history in recent times), though their 767-replacement strategy seems pretty locked down. While true that they also have LATAM and VS where frames can be offloaded/group-bargaining comes into play, VS have a number of un-excercised options on their own (very recently placed) existing A330neo order, and with Heathrow plans no further along they don't have much place for 10 more aircraft in the fleet, let alone anywhere near 40 even if the A330ceo frames don't stick around.

Could also be IndiGo, they've talked about the A330neo more than anyone else in recent times, but their recent reported discusses (if true) with Etihad over an Air India buyout/investment muddy the waters somewhat.
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musman9853
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:32 pm

No matter whos ordering them, I'm glad the a330neo is getting more love. Glad we're not seeing an a380 repeat
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jbs2886
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:47 pm

Speedalive wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The other wild card is Cathay Pacific (plus Dragon), as they have some ancient A330s (including the first one ever built) that need replacement, along with B773(A) frames that are are 18 years of age or older., this would be a replacement of their ancient A333s (the oldest 25) and the 17 B773(A) frames, OR it could be to move A321s (including the HK Express fleet if reconfigured to Cathay Dragon standards) to A321 routes and move the current A321 routes to A330 service...retiring the ancient A320s and A321s. Cathay Pacific (plus Dragon) has a lot of old planes needing replacement and HK Express, an acquisition recently closed, is probably worth more its fleet than keeping that brand alive.

I wouldn't discount this at all. The A339 would be a good one to one replacement of CX's 28 A333's to save on gas and maintenance. Given their current predicament with the local economy, it might also make sense to effectively downsize by replacing some of the older regional 773's with the remaining 12 NEO's to better match the lowered O/D demand to HKG, while at the same time continuing to replace unprofitable 77W F routes with the more efficient A35K as they've been doing already. I'm not sure if they would replace all 17 773's because three of those frames were acquired from EK just this past year to replace the last of their 772's, so the plane does seem to serve them well. They probably don't need all of that capacity now though, and I'm positive that they did not foresee these protests when they bought them. They could also just split the order with KA. It's anyone's guess really. Perhaps they're waiting for a more opportune time to announce the order and maybe Airbus made CX a sweet deal to buy back some of their newer A330's as part of the deal like when Boeing offered to take Air Canada's E190's for the 737 Max order.

The case for Air Canada also makes sense too, but with the whole TS merger, it seems like a lot is up in the air. It would be neat if this was Onex/WS trying to be more aggressive against AC, especially now that they're a private company, but that feels like a pipe dream.

More than likely, this will probably be something super underwhelming... probably EK, China, or a lessor company, as everyone else has said.


I just don't think CX is in any position to be ordering new aircraft right now - probably wait until things settle down.
 
beechnut
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:57 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
MCTSET wrote:


But they have 37 Dreamliner's why do they need NEO’s?
It's not an exclusive choice... Different markets suit each type. AC has a fleet of A330-300s as it is that they have recently almost doubled in size (13 in service, 2 more coming) so the separate market in the AC network is there... Buying a fleet of 339s to replace them is a possibility... We aren't saying its likely ( I said off the wall for a reason) but it is possible.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk


Exactly. Plus they have 25 767s that eventually need replacing, at Rouge. AC really likes the A330s. They were supposed to be replaced by 787s, but instead AC decided to hang onto them and increase the fleet as swing capacity that could easily be shed in a downturn. As you I said it was pure speculation, but could it be that AC likes them enough to bring a brand-new fleet on-board?

To be fair, I don't think AC would make this sort of decision until the fate of the MAX is known. Unless they know something we don't regarding its future in general, or its future at AC. Maybe Airbus said "we have no slots at the moment for the A320X Neo, but we can build you some A330 Neos real quick?

Well what would a late Sunday afternoon be without wild speculation while sipping single-malt whiskey?

Beech
 
AirAY
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:55 pm

We all know it must be EK. Ordered at the Dubai Air Show 2019

But TURKISH AIRLINES operates 68 A330.
8 Airbus A330–203
10 Airbus A330–223
9 Airbus A330–243F
1 Airbus A330–223F
20 Airbus A330–303
20 Airbus A330–343

40 Airbus A330–941 I know it’s a Dream or a wish, but why not?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:33 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Speedalive wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
The other wild card is Cathay Pacific (plus Dragon), as they have some ancient A330s (including the first one ever built) that need replacement, along with B773(A) frames that are are 18 years of age or older., this would be a replacement of their ancient A333s (the oldest 25) and the 17 B773(A) frames, OR it could be to move A321s (including the HK Express fleet if reconfigured to Cathay Dragon standards) to A321 routes and move the current A321 routes to A330 service...retiring the ancient A320s and A321s. Cathay Pacific (plus Dragon) has a lot of old planes needing replacement and HK Express, an acquisition recently closed, is probably worth more its fleet than keeping that brand alive.

I wouldn't discount this at all. The A339 would be a good one to one replacement of CX's 28 A333's to save on gas and maintenance. Given their current predicament with the local economy, it might also make sense to effectively downsize by replacing some of the older regional 773's with the remaining 12 NEO's to better match the lowered O/D demand to HKG, while at the same time continuing to replace unprofitable 77W F routes with the more efficient A35K as they've been doing already. I'm not sure if they would replace all 17 773's because three of those frames were acquired from EK just this past year to replace the last of their 772's, so the plane does seem to serve them well. They probably don't need all of that capacity now though, and I'm positive that they did not foresee these protests when they bought them. They could also just split the order with KA. It's anyone's guess really. Perhaps they're waiting for a more opportune time to announce the order and maybe Airbus made CX a sweet deal to buy back some of their newer A330's as part of the deal like when Boeing offered to take Air Canada's E190's for the 737 Max order.

The case for Air Canada also makes sense too, but with the whole TS merger, it seems like a lot is up in the air. It would be neat if this was Onex/WS trying to be more aggressive against AC, especially now that they're a private company, but that feels like a pipe dream.

More than likely, this will probably be something super underwhelming... probably EK, China, or a lessor company, as everyone else has said.


I just don't think CX is in any position to be ordering new aircraft right now - probably wait until things settle down.


If you look at the age of much of the CX/KA A320, A321, and A333 fleet, many of them are ancient and are nearing time-out. The LH Group recently retired some A333s of similar age to be scrapped as they were less than 5,000 hours of timing out.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:55 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
Speedalive wrote:
I wouldn't discount this at all. The A339 would be a good one to one replacement of CX's 28 A333's to save on gas and maintenance. Given their current predicament with the local economy, it might also make sense to effectively downsize by replacing some of the older regional 773's with the remaining 12 NEO's to better match the lowered O/D demand to HKG, while at the same time continuing to replace unprofitable 77W F routes with the more efficient A35K as they've been doing already. I'm not sure if they would replace all 17 773's because three of those frames were acquired from EK just this past year to replace the last of their 772's, so the plane does seem to serve them well. They probably don't need all of that capacity now though, and I'm positive that they did not foresee these protests when they bought them. They could also just split the order with KA. It's anyone's guess really. Perhaps they're waiting for a more opportune time to announce the order and maybe Airbus made CX a sweet deal to buy back some of their newer A330's as part of the deal like when Boeing offered to take Air Canada's E190's for the 737 Max order.

The case for Air Canada also makes sense too, but with the whole TS merger, it seems like a lot is up in the air. It would be neat if this was Onex/WS trying to be more aggressive against AC, especially now that they're a private company, but that feels like a pipe dream.

More than likely, this will probably be something super underwhelming... probably EK, China, or a lessor company, as everyone else has said.


I just don't think CX is in any position to be ordering new aircraft right now - probably wait until things settle down.


If you look at the age of much of the CX/KA A320, A321, and A333 fleet, many of them are ancient and are nearing time-out. The LH Group recently retired some A333s of similar age to be scrapped as they were less than 5,000 hours of timing out.


If they were that close to timing out, CX will have developed a plan already. Regardless, that is beside me point - the unrest in HK and financial difficulties for CX as a result put CX in a position that ordering 40 new widebodies is unlikely.
 
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conaly
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:37 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
If you look at the age of much of the CX/KA A320, A321, and A333 fleet, many of them are ancient and are nearing time-out. The LH Group recently retired some A333s of similar age to be scrapped as they were less than 5,000 hours of timing out.


I think you refer to the five A330-300 formerly operated by SN. The retired frames all have been very old and they had different engines: three former Air Inter planes delivered in 1993/94 have been GE-powered, two former LTU planes from 1994/95 had PW-engines. Some of them are already scrapped, the others are stored. All other A330-300s in SN's fleet, as well as in the fleets of LH and LX are RR-powered.

Still, those planes have been older, than any A330-300 in either Cathay Pacific or Dragon fleet. All A330-300s, that have ever been delivered to Cathay, are still in operation, either with Cathay Pacific/Dragon, or some with Brussels. And as all of them are equipped with RR-engines, I do not see them to be scrapped soon. Besides, aren't some of the older frames leased anyway?
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:35 am

My guess: Amedeo

They could not handle 20 A380's and figure that 40 A330's will work much better. We also know that they meet the strict Airbus requirements required to log a "Firm order."

It makes as much sense (perhaps more) than some of the previous "suggestions."

Have a great day,
 
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GCT64
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:48 am

conaly wrote:
...
Still, those planes have been older, than any A330-300 in either Cathay Pacific or Dragon fleet. All A330-300s, that have ever been delivered to Cathay, are still in operation, either with Cathay Pacific/Dragon, or some with Brussels. And as all of them are equipped with RR-engines, I do not see them to be scrapped soon. Besides, aren't some of the older frames leased anyway?


I think at least a couple of CX A330s are not still in operation, I believe B-HLA and B-HLC are both at Teruel now: B-HLA from in from CTU on 27 Aug 19, B-HLC from DWC on 28 Nov 19.
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conaly
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:56 am

GCT64 wrote:
I think at least a couple of CX A330s are not still in operation, I believe B-HLA and B-HLC are both at Teruel now: B-HLA from in from CTU on 27 Aug 19, B-HLC from DWC on 28 Nov 19.


Thanks for the update, I missed that.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:00 am

musman9853 wrote:
No matter whos ordering them, I'm glad the a330neo is getting more love. Glad we're not seeing an a380 repeat

Model isn't out of the water yet, especially if there's a global financial turndown, as widely predicted.

This is however a much-welcomed breath of fresh air, and at least it's not in the 777X's predicament. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:02 am

2175301 wrote:
My guess: Amedeo

They could not handle 20 A380's and figure that 40 A330's will work much better. We also know that they meet the strict Airbus requirements required to log a "Firm order."

It makes as much sense (perhaps more) than some of the previous "suggestions."

Have a great day,


The A380 had no lease market, the A330neo does, and the A330ceo especially does, so even if it was Amedeo it wouldn't be anywhere near as speculative as you've sarcastically implied. This is much more likely to be for an airline or group of airlines.
 
astuteman
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:19 am

2175301 wrote:
My guess: Amedeo

They could not handle 20 A380's and figure that 40 A330's will work much better. We also know that they meet the strict Airbus requirements required to log a "Firm order."

It makes as much sense (perhaps more) than some of the previous "suggestions."

Have a great day,


The pain is tangible ……

Rgds
 
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c933103
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:59 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
My guess is China since they order in big batches and they don’t list the individual airlines till delivery.


I think China is in no position to take more widebody aircraft right now. The biggest airline, Hainan, is getting rid of its A350 and 787 orders. They ordered too many aircraft.

Hainan is Hainan
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate.
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frigatebird
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:18 am

ba319-131 wrote:
jules48 wrote:
IAG.To split between BA,IB etc


- highly unlikely

Agree with a few others, suspect ordered by China to split between the big 3.


Could it be possible China ordered 40 A330neo to enable HNA cancelling some of their A350 orders? I realise HNA is privately owned, but it's not in China's interest either to let debts for HNA accumulate. And China's A330 completion center needs aircraft to complete... Of course the A330neo being excellent aircraft is not unimportant, and the A330ceo is already a very popular aircraft in China.
If true, it would be another blow to Boeing, who haven't sold any 787-10 to China yet.

If not, I think Indigo is likely, they expressed strong interest in the A330neo until recently: https://simpleflying.com/indigo-widebod ... n-flights/
And Indigo likes to order big...
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jfcamire
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:40 am

Might be AC for Rouge 767. They are getting old and with the TS merger... they are getting a lot of 330’s.
 
Kadish
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:44 am

jules48 wrote:
IAG.To split between BA,IB etc


Or IAG to split bertween IB and UX therefore all former UX 787 ho to BA and UX and IB become a single airline with the same airplane.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 am

c933103 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
My guess is China since they order in big batches and they don’t list the individual airlines till delivery.


I think China is in no position to take more widebody aircraft right now. The biggest airline, Hainan, is getting rid of its A350 and 787 orders. They ordered too many aircraft.

Hainan is Hainan

To expand c933103's explanation, HNA Group are privately owned, they do not get or purchase their aircraft through the bulk purchase made by Central Government. Those who do so are only Air China, China Southern Airlines and China Eastern Airlines and their subsidiaries.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:05 am

I find it strange that here are endless posts about who could have ordered 40 UFO A330-900 and the most logical answer, China doing it for the three big Chinese airlines, is not accepted as the most likely.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
I find it strange that here are endless posts about who could have ordered 40 UFO A330-900 and the most logical answer, China doing it for the three big Chinese airlines, is not accepted as the most likely.


Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:19 pm

:banghead: LH …..
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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Polot
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I find it strange that here are endless posts about who could have ordered 40 UFO A330-900 and the most logical answer, China doing it for the three big Chinese airlines, is not accepted as the most likely.


Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.

It is because the Chinese orders are “boring” since they always order a ton of aircraft for political reasons, from both Airbus and Boeing (when not in trade wars), and they are “expected”.

So you got people here who get deluded and hype themselves up hoping that it is some random (usually their favorite) carrier and that means they chose A over B and whatnot, and that means it would be in addition to the “expected” Chinese orders which would come later.
Last edited by Polot on Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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sq421
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:29 pm

frigatebird wrote:
ba319-131 wrote:
jules48 wrote:
IAG.To split between BA,IB etc


- highly unlikely

Agree with a few others, suspect ordered by China to split between the big 3.


Could it be possible China ordered 40 A330neo to enable HNA cancelling some of their A350 orders? I realise HNA is privately owned, but it's not in China's interest either to let debts for HNA accumulate. And China's A330 completion center needs aircraft to complete... Of course the A330neo being excellent aircraft is not unimportant, and the A330ceo is already a very popular aircraft in China.
If true, it would be another blow to Boeing, who haven't sold any 787-10 to China yet.

If not, I think Indigo is likely, they expressed strong interest in the A330neo until recently: https://simpleflying.com/indigo-widebod ... n-flights/
And Indigo likes to order big...


IndiGo has enough on it's plate with the engine reliability issues bringing DGCA on it's ass, along with the Corporate Governance issues & Boardroom tussles. They'd focus to get these monkeys of the back before committing themselves to a completely new operational model with widebodies.
 
majano
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:48 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I find it strange that here are endless posts about who could have ordered 40 UFO A330-900 and the most logical answer, China doing it for the three big Chinese airlines, is not accepted as the most likely.


Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.

So, would it have been better if the conversation stopped as soon as someone mentioned the name of China? I am not sure I understand where this is going given that most A-Net discussions are about speculation.
 
sxf24
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:06 pm

rbavfan wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
If it was an American company like DL wouldn’t they be required to notify the SEC and investors immediately? I thought these “undisclosed” customers always meant non-US


Not until payments are made. Customers like Delta can get most likely get better terms on that. Thus allowing them to keep their plans private till a point too late for their main competition to react.


Airbus can’t book it as a firm order until payments are made and the contract is firm, this it must also be disclosed by the purchaser (if a listed company).

jbs2886 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Airlines under disclosure requirements are not always as quick as users here assume they need to be to disclose the order. HA, DL, and UA, off the top of my head, have both announced orders that turned out to be UFOs (or announced weeks after we learned they firmly signed). But there is a difference between a a relatively small add on order and 40 wide bodies- that would be disclosed very quickly.

The US aviation media also, for obvious reasons, has a lot of contacts and leaks at the US3. Reuters announced the UA XLR deal before UA/Airbus did. There has been nary a peep about any US carrier ordering 40 A330s.

It’s almost certainly China. I don’t think EK mostly because EK loves media attention and would be teasing a build up of will they or won’t they also order A330s (beyond just the interview they did around A350/787 order).


100% everyone is claiming US airlines MUST announce firm orders almost immediately, but there are plenty of examples where they haven’t. But, the size of this order does change that.


There is no situation where a material firm order has not been disclosed in a timely manner by a listed US airline.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Favre4 wrote:
jethawk wrote:
Would it be plausible for Virgin Atlantic to take delivery of these birds and lease them to DL?


Why wouldn’t DL just buy them ?


Tariff avoidance? If the planes are transferred to the VS order book and then leased to DL, is DL ever sold the plane for purposes of tariffs against Airbus for a complete plane?


Subleasing does not avoid tariffs. The government looks through to the importation and final use of the product.
 
olle
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:49 pm

98 gross and 93 net orders during 2019! 2019 was indeed a great year for the 330 and probably one of the better years in the history of 330.
 
Baldr
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:23 pm

majano wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
I find it strange that here are endless posts about who could have ordered 40 UFO A330-900 and the most logical answer, China doing it for the three big Chinese airlines, is not accepted as the most likely.


Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.

So, would it have been better if the conversation stopped as soon as someone mentioned the name of China? I am not sure I understand where this is going given that most A-Net discussions are about speculation.


Quite a few a.netters seem to be unable to fathom that the A330-900 is turning out to be highly competitive with the 787-9. Therefore, they seem to believe that only China will be bulk buying A330neos, for political reasons, going forward. However, if China is going to be bulk buying A330neos -- say, 200+ units -- Airbus will very likely set up an A330neo FAL in Tianjin*.

IMJ, the firm order for 40 A330-900s is very likely from Emirates. The first aircraft can be delivered as early as mid 2021.

*Airbus is looking at assembling its newest A330neo wide-body jet in China as part of a bid to win orders for the plane in one of the world’s fastest-growing aviation markets, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

Airbus may expand its existing plant in Tianjin to accommodate the model, but a decision has not been made with the business case yet to be established, said the people, who asked not to be named because the discussions are private. The plan may not go ahead, they cautioned.

A spokesman for Airbus declined to comment.

Airbus previously offered to build its A380 superjumbo in China in exchange for orders from the country’s airlines, but that pitch was rejected amid concerns about the double-decker plane’s suitability for the local market, according to two of the people. The smaller, more fuel-efficient A330neo is potentially a better fit, with more than 200 of the original-generation model already sold in the Asian nation.

The move to extend the Tianjin plant -- which currently assembles Airbus’ single-aisle A320 workhorse -- comes as Rolls-Royce is said to be offering to establish a Chinese plant to secure an engine deal for the wide-body plane being developed by Comac. The UK company is pitching a derivative of the Trent 7000 turbine for that aircraft, which is also the only option on the A330neo.

China is set to become the world’s biggest plane market next decade and will need almost 8,000 aircraft worth $1.2 trillion over 20 years, according to Boeing estimates. President Xi Jinping has also earmarked aerospace as a priority industry, encouraging Western producers to set up shop in the country.

The A330neo -- abbreviated from new engine option -- assembly plant would add to an existing completion and delivery center for Airbus’ original A330, where planes get final touches before being shipped to the customers.


https://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/airbus-weighs-making-its-newest-jet-in-china-to-win-orders-1.831951
 
Clackers
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:25 pm

Maybe SQ to replace their 787s on local routes?
 
IADCA
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:35 pm

Clackers wrote:
Maybe SQ to replace their 787s on local routes?


Their oldest 787 is less than 2 years old and they still have nearly 30 on order. They're coming in to replace 777s, whose replacements are already accounted for (787-10 and 359). This is not hard information to find, which makes trolling on the subject sorta weird.
 
olle
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:39 pm

How many orders has 787 secured in 2019

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