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Scotron12
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:27 pm

Baldr wrote:
majano wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.

So, would it have been better if the conversation stopped as soon as someone mentioned the name of China? I am not sure I understand where this is going given that most A-Net discussions are about speculation.


Quite a few a.netters seem to be unable to fathom that the A330-900 is turning out to be highly competitive with the 787-9. Therefore, they seem to believe that only China will be bulk buying A330neos, for political reasons, going forward. However, if China is going to be bulk buying A330neos -- say, 200+ units -- Airbus will very likely set up an A330neo FAL in Tianjin*.

IMJ, the firm order for 40 A330-900s is very likely from Emirates. The first aircraft can be delivered as early as mid 2021.

*Airbus is looking at assembling its newest A330neo wide-body jet in China as part of a bid to win orders for the plane in one of the world’s fastest-growing aviation markets, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

Airbus may expand its existing plant in Tianjin to accommodate the model, but a decision has not been made with the business case yet to be established, said the people, who asked not to be named because the discussions are private. The plan may not go ahead, they cautioned.

A spokesman for Airbus declined to comment.

Airbus previously offered to build its A380 superjumbo in China in exchange for orders from the country’s airlines, but that pitch was rejected amid concerns about the double-decker plane’s suitability for the local market, according to two of the people. The smaller, more fuel-efficient A330neo is potentially a better fit, with more than 200 of the original-generation model already sold in the Asian nation.

The move to extend the Tianjin plant -- which currently assembles Airbus’ single-aisle A320 workhorse -- comes as Rolls-Royce is said to be offering to establish a Chinese plant to secure an engine deal for the wide-body plane being developed by Comac. The UK company is pitching a derivative of the Trent 7000 turbine for that aircraft, which is also the only option on the A330neo.

China is set to become the world’s biggest plane market next decade and will need almost 8,000 aircraft worth $1.2 trillion over 20 years, according to Boeing estimates. President Xi Jinping has also earmarked aerospace as a priority industry, encouraging Western producers to set up shop in the country.

The A330neo -- abbreviated from new engine option -- assembly plant would add to an existing completion and delivery center for Airbus’ original A330, where planes get final touches before being shipped to the customers.


https://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/airbus-weighs-making-its-newest-jet-in-china-to-win-orders-1.831951

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I think there's a strong possibility it's EK too. Order was placed 12/23..same month STC announced his stepping aside. Definite proof....of course not! Cannot remember exactly, but there was mention EK was looking to get A339s early...was posted somewhere on this site when the initial A339 options were taken.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:32 pm

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s United. They have 767-300s that start turning 30 next year.....they need to be replaced now. They also have 757s that start turning 30 this year and they need to be replaced now.

If you take all Polaris 767s and the 767-400 fleet plus the 7 aircraft that are due to be parked and currently. You get 39 frames.

The 767-400 is new and can be brought home to beef up domestic and you can keep the old seat and save the money on the Polaris reconfigurations. The 767-400 is a CASM machine and could be great on heavy domestic markets.

Or

You replace all 767-300s and leave the 767-400s INTL. bring the High J 767s to the PS routes and market as the only airline with all WB dual isle NY to CA service. You can then park all the old 757-200s.
You fly the 767-300 tell the end of its useful life or until you get full ROI on the Polaris mod.

United can no longer wait for an NMA as it is now solidly on the back burner. And if Boeing is smart they are already working on a new narrow body to replace the 737.
 
mia
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:45 pm

I think its JetBlue.
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proudavgeek
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:48 pm

My SUPER SUPER Optimistic guess will be Indigo Airline of India. They have a habit of ordering 100+ planes (narrowbody ofcourse) and they have been looking to go international for a while now. While ordering 40 at a go will be bit risky move, if anyone can pull it off, it will be Indigo.

It will be interesting to see who the actual orderer is. My safest bet is Government of China..
 
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scbriml
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:50 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s United. They have 767-300s that start turning 30 next year.....they need to be replaced now. They also have 757s that start turning 30 this year and they need to be replaced now.

If you take all Polaris 767s and the 767-400 fleet plus the 7 aircraft that are due to be parked and currently. You get 39 frames.

The 767-400 is new and can be brought home to beef up domestic and you can keep the old seat and save the money on the Polaris reconfigurations. The 767-400 is a CASM machine and could be great on heavy domestic markets.

Or

You replace all 767-300s and leave the 767-400s INTL. bring the High J 767s to the PS routes and market as the only airline with all WB dual isle NY to CA service. You can then park all the old 757-200s.
You fly the 767-300 tell the end of its useful life or until you get full ROI on the Polaris mod.

United can no longer wait for an NMA as it is now solidly on the back burner. And if Boeing is smart they are already working on a new narrow body to replace the 737.


But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 pm

Probably Lufthansa Group.
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dstblj52
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Can you expand on this "aircraft with a bad history" bit?

Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.

Hmm, in the name of fairness, let's tap the brakes for a second and give you a choice:
    You can provide the tail numbers of any aircraft in the history of aviation that Delta has acquired for service with "non existent (sic) maintenance records," or...
    You can admit that you have no blessed clue what you're talking about.

Which will it be?

I admit I was taking it to far but even lightsaber admits certain airlines will take planes with bad paper work and run them through a C or D check, and a engine overhaul.
11 months ago

SRQKEF wrote:
It might become a problem though if Norwegian ends up going under in the same timespan with their 130+ 737s. Other than that, I think 74 737s doesn’t flood the market at all considering the large size of the 737 fleet.

200 737s hitting the market would take a while to clear, but they would in under a year.

Before anyone thinks this is A vs. B, good paperwork A320s would clear just as quickly as good paperwork 737s. Bad paperwork, there are airlines that buy them too, but oh do they demand a discount (WN, DL, G4).

Lightsaber
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:00 pm

scbriml wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s United. They have 767-300s that start turning 30 next year.....they need to be replaced now. They also have 757s that start turning 30 this year and they need to be replaced now.

If you take all Polaris 767s and the 767-400 fleet plus the 7 aircraft that are due to be parked and currently. You get 39 frames.

The 767-400 is new and can be brought home to beef up domestic and you can keep the old seat and save the money on the Polaris reconfigurations. The 767-400 is a CASM machine and could be great on heavy domestic markets.

Or

You replace all 767-300s and leave the 767-400s INTL. bring the High J 767s to the PS routes and market as the only airline with all WB dual isle NY to CA service. You can then park all the old 757-200s.
You fly the 767-300 tell the end of its useful life or until you get full ROI on the Polaris mod.

United can no longer wait for an NMA as it is now solidly on the back burner. And if Boeing is smart they are already working on a new narrow body to replace the 737.


But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?



They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:52 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
scbriml wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s United. They have 767-300s that start turning 30 next year.....they need to be replaced now. They also have 757s that start turning 30 this year and they need to be replaced now.

If you take all Polaris 767s and the 767-400 fleet plus the 7 aircraft that are due to be parked and currently. You get 39 frames.

The 767-400 is new and can be brought home to beef up domestic and you can keep the old seat and save the money on the Polaris reconfigurations. The 767-400 is a CASM machine and could be great on heavy domestic markets.

Or

You replace all 767-300s and leave the 767-400s INTL. bring the High J 767s to the PS routes and market as the only airline with all WB dual isle NY to CA service. You can then park all the old 757-200s.
You fly the 767-300 tell the end of its useful life or until you get full ROI on the Polaris mod.

United can no longer wait for an NMA as it is now solidly on the back burner. And if Boeing is smart they are already working on a new narrow body to replace the 737.


But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?



They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.


They sure put a lot of work into the 763's if they will all be retired in 3 years :shock:
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:17 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
scbriml wrote:

But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?



They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.


They sure put a lot of work into the 763's if they will all be retired in 3 years :shock:


Yeah well when you are expecting a Boeing NMA launch to be eminent and to be a launch customer and then the MAX gets grounded and rumors of the NMA being benched for a new NB you don’t have much of a choice.

You cut your losses and jump now on the 330 before everyone else does. If you wait you run the risk not getting a replacement until the 767s are pushing 40.
 
T4thH
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:30 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
scbriml wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s United. They have 767-300s that start turning 30 next year.....they need to be replaced now. They also have 757s that start turning 30 this year and they need to be replaced now.

If you take all Polaris 767s and the 767-400 fleet plus the 7 aircraft that are due to be parked and currently. You get 39 frames.

The 767-400 is new and can be brought home to beef up domestic and you can keep the old seat and save the money on the Polaris reconfigurations. The 767-400 is a CASM machine and could be great on heavy domestic markets.

Or

You replace all 767-300s and leave the 767-400s INTL. bring the High J 767s to the PS routes and market as the only airline with all WB dual isle NY to CA service. You can then park all the old 757-200s.
You fly the 767-300 tell the end of its useful life or until you get full ROI on the Polaris mod.

United can no longer wait for an NMA as it is now solidly on the back burner. And if Boeing is smart they are already working on a new narrow body to replace the 737.


But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?



They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.

Oh this is easy to say, immediately, so latest next day, prior the stock exchange will start. Of course, it will be possible, UA has not done it. But pretty sure, also this will be known soon...just look TV, you will get a nice chance to see live, when several dozens of SEC officials together with 100 police men with several trucks will make a stop in front of the UA office, to collect all binders and computers. And of course with some handcuffs. You know, they will do a little bit more than average, when a imposition of several billion can be expected.

And again as already 100 times explained....This was a firmed order by undisclosed and this order was already done/firmed signed last year on 27-Dec-2019. A LOI will not to have been announced (still with an LOI order of 30x A330 it will be different), this is a firm order by undisclosed.

Any airline, company or lessor, which is listed at any stock exchange (especially in New York, Europe or anywhere else) will have to announce an firmed order of this size on same date or latest on following working day, prior the stock exchanges opens. And this without any exception.

So no, never nor, njet AA, UA, Delta, Qantas, LH group, Turkish airlines, IAG, Laatam, flybe e.g e.g e.g Also no lessors, who are listed as GECAS or AerCap or or or or....

This leaves only few big airlines, who are government owned and are big enough or are private owned.
Emirates will be possible, perhaps also Air Asia X.
Most likely as already several times done, it is the Chinese government, who (again has ordered as "undisclosed") has ordered the 40x A330-900 for the government own/controlled big Chinese airlines.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:55 pm

T4thH wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
scbriml wrote:

But what about the requirements for UA to disclose such an order?



They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.

Oh this is easy to say, immediately, so latest next day, prior the stock exchange will start. Of course, it will be possible, UA has not done it. But pretty sure, also this will be known soon...just look TV, you will get a nice chance to see live, when several dozens of SEC officials together with 100 police men with several trucks will make a stop in front of the UA office, to collect all binders and computers. And of course with some handcuffs. You know, they will do a little bit more than average, when a imposition of several billion can be expected.

And again as already 100 times explained....This was a firmed order by undisclosed and this order was already done/firmed signed last year on 27-Dec-2019. A LOI will not to have been announced (still with an LOI order of 30x A330 it will be different), this is a firm order by undisclosed.

Any airline, company or lessor, which is listed at any stock exchange (especially in New York, Europe or anywhere else) will have to announce an firmed order of this size on same date or latest on following working day, prior the stock exchanges opens. And this without any exception.

So no, never nor, njet AA, UA, Delta, Qantas, LH group, Turkish airlines, IAG, Laatam, flybe e.g e.g e.g Also no lessors, who are listed as GECAS or AerCap or or or or....

This leaves only few big airlines, who are government owned and are big enough or are private owned.
Emirates will be possible, perhaps also Air Asia X.
Most likely as already several times done, it is the Chinese government, who (again has ordered as "undisclosed") has ordered the 40x A330-900 for the government own/controlled big Chinese airlines.


Ok....

Then tell me this, United has historically announced aircraft orders and changes to aircraft orders on earnings calls. For example the last 2 batches of 787s. So why would this be any different? They were obviously working out the details months prior.
 
T4thH
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:05 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
T4thH wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:


They announce results next week. I don’t know what the rules are on reporting orders.

Oh this is easy to say, immediately, so latest next day, prior the stock exchange will start. Of course, it will be possible, UA has not done it. But pretty sure, also this will be known soon...just look TV, you will get a nice chance to see live, when several dozens of SEC officials together with 100 police men with several trucks will make a stop in front of the UA office, to collect all binders and computers. And of course with some handcuffs. You know, they will do a little bit more than average, when a imposition of several billion can be expected.

And again as already 100 times explained....This was a firmed order by undisclosed and this order was already done/firmed signed last year on 27-Dec-2019. A LOI will not to have been announced (still with an LOI order of 30x A330 it will be different), this is a firm order by undisclosed.

Any airline, company or lessor, which is listed at any stock exchange (especially in New York, Europe or anywhere else) will have to announce an firmed order of this size on same date or latest on following working day, prior the stock exchanges opens. And this without any exception.

So no, never nor, njet AA, UA, Delta, Qantas, LH group, Turkish airlines, IAG, Laatam, flybe e.g e.g e.g Also no lessors, who are listed as GECAS or AerCap or or or or....

This leaves only few big airlines, who are government owned and are big enough or are private owned.
Emirates will be possible, perhaps also Air Asia X.
Most likely as already several times done, it is the Chinese government, who (again has ordered as "undisclosed") has ordered the 40x A330-900 for the government own/controlled big Chinese airlines.


Ok....

Then tell me this, United has historically announced aircraft orders and changes to aircraft orders on earnings calls. For example the last 2 batches of 787s. So why would this be any different? They were obviously working out the details months prior.


What for changes, please explain. Of existing orders deferred deliveries or so?
 
moa999
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:12 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Then tell me this, United has historically announced aircraft orders and changes to aircraft orders on earnings calls. For example the last 2 batches of 787s. So why would this be any different? They were obviously working out the details months prior.


Details/ negotiations yes. But not final approval.
Most major companies will have a Board meeting the day before results to approve things - donut can be announced the next morning.

Without that approval, Airbus cant include it
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:25 am

moa999 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Then tell me this, United has historically announced aircraft orders and changes to aircraft orders on earnings calls. For example the last 2 batches of 787s. So why would this be any different? They were obviously working out the details months prior.


Details/ negotiations yes. But not final approval.
Most major companies will have a Board meeting the day before results to approve things - donut can be announced the next morning.

Without that approval, Airbus cant include it


Meh....I don’t know enough about this stuff to know if you are all right or wrong so I’m going to assume you are right.

I still believe it would be smart for UA to get atleast 40 330s. Boeing has nothing to offer and the 767s are cooked. The 321XLR does not replace them, and right now UAs order book cannot replace them.

This order just seems to make to much sense...... Kirby had 330s at AA so they are a known quantity. Whether or not he liked them I have no idea.

Earnings season, Boeing confusion, new CEO, old airplanes, 350s they don’t want but can’t get out of the RR engine agreement.....and this A330 order has RR......don’t know if it quacks like a duck....
 
T4thH
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:56 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
moa999 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Then tell me this, United has historically announced aircraft orders and changes to aircraft orders on earnings calls. For example the last 2 batches of 787s. So why would this be any different? They were obviously working out the details months prior.


Details/ negotiations yes. But not final approval.
Most major companies will have a Board meeting the day before results to approve things - donut can be announced the next morning.

Without that approval, Airbus cant include it


Meh....I don’t know enough about this stuff to know if you are all right or wrong so I’m going to assume you are right.

I still believe it would be smart for UA to get atleast 40 330s. Boeing has nothing to offer and the 767s are cooked. The 321XLR does not replace them, and right now UAs order book cannot replace them.

This order just seems to make to much sense...... Kirby had 330s at AA so they are a known quantity. Whether or not he liked them I have no idea.

Earnings season, Boeing confusion, new CEO, old airplanes, 350s they don’t want but can’t get out of the RR engine agreement.....and this A330 order has RR......don’t know if it quacks like a duck....


Ok, no doubt, all you have mentioned is correct. Still we can also exclude, this undisclosed order of 40x A330-900 was not UA.

Regarding the A350 order deferred to 2027; it shall be already known, Airbus is planning a A350 Neo; they have already started to employ additional staff for the A350 Neo program in autumn 2018 in Sevilla and Toulouse. First delivery of the A350 Neo shall be around 2027. The A350 Xwb is "starting to get a little bit old", it would be best for UA to order a midlife update with a new upgraded engine. This engine will be according up to date knowledge the RR Ultrafan engine. UA will have to replace older B777-200 around 2027 latest.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:16 am

proudavgeek wrote:
My SUPER SUPER Optimistic guess will be Indigo Airline of India. They have a habit of ordering 100+ planes (narrowbody ofcourse) and they have been looking to go international for a while now. While ordering 40 at a go will be bit risky move, if anyone can pull it off, it will be Indigo.

It will be interesting to see who the actual orderer is. My safest bet is Government of China..

Somehow my gut feeling is telling me it is not IndiGo. They are risk averse organisation and prefers to grow organic in firstly local market, now regional market, before jumping the long haul market (if they do). They also took in hints from various long haul low cost which are not really making money or anemic profit, as we have witnessed from AirAsia X, Norwegian, Level, Joon etc. Unless they have strong backing parent company like Qantas for Jetstar, Singapore Airlines for Scoot; I really can't see IndiGo buying 40 firm order for A339neo.

In addition, they are trying to absorb as many gaps as possible left by Jet Airways collapse, by ramping up their A320neo/A321neo delivery. With that being said, the A330 crew are readily available with ex-9W crew.
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SteelChair
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:12 am

olle wrote:
How many orders has 787 secured in 2019


According to wiki, 84.
 
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zeke
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:32 am

juliuswong wrote:
Somehow my gut feeling is telling me it is not IndiGo. They are risk averse organisation and prefers to grow organic in firstly local market, now regional market, before jumping the long haul market (if they do).


I don’t think it’s Indigo either, however if they did take over Air India one way to clean the deck would be to reduce the airline back to A320/A330 fleet meaning existing expensive 747/777/787 crew would be redundant.
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United1
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:14 am

sxf24 wrote:


100% everyone is claiming US airlines MUST announce firm orders almost immediately, but there are plenty of examples where they haven’t. But, the size of this order does change that.[/quote]

There is no situation where a material firm order has not been disclosed in a timely manner by a listed US airline.

[/quote]

UA has booked smaller undisclosed orders in the past with Boeing and only disclosed them when filing quarterly reports. You generally have to immediately disclose purchases that would materially impact a corporations finances. There isn't a hard fast rule but the general guideline for "material" is a purchase/acquisition that exceeds 5-10% of the enterprise value or market cap. There are some other things that would trigger a filing that are related to potential conflicts of interest. The larger orders that UA has sat were LOIs that had not been firmed...once they were firmed paperwork was filed with the SEC.

This order almost certainty is not from a US company as 40 330neo would be a material acquisition. Even if the order is half off it's still a $6 billion purchase...that's going to trigger a filling with the SEC.
Last edited by United1 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:15 am

dstblj52 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Certain planes get damage so thing like wiglets can't be added, and have bad or non existent maintenance records.

Hmm, in the name of fairness, let's tap the brakes for a second and give you a choice:
    You can provide the tail numbers of any aircraft in the history of aviation that Delta has acquired for service with "non existent (sic) maintenance records," or...
    You can admit that you have no blessed clue what you're talking about.

Which will it be?

I admit I was taking it to far but even lightsaber admits certain airlines will take planes with bad paper work and run them through a C or D check, and a engine overhaul.

If by "taking it to (sic) far" you mean "posting an utter falsehood".... then sure. :sarcastic:

But just wanted to clarify, for those reading this.



1989worstyear wrote:
They sure put a lot of work into the 763's if they will all be retired in 3 years

To be fair, plans can and do change.

They recently refreshed their 744 interiors, only a short time before deciding to expedite their retirement due (among other things) to new fuel system directives.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:29 am

Draken21fx wrote:
DDR wrote:
Congrats to Airbus. The A330 is an amazing aircraft from a passenger’s perspective. It’s also liked by flight attendants.


Because I am genuinely curious can you please elaborate on the last part of your sentence as to why the neo is liked by flight crew? Is it the case for the 350 or 787 and if not would you happen to know why?

I wouldn't say they would or wouldn't but I can sure tell you why they might not. And that's the Rolls Royce Engine. That's the one engine United doesn't have the shop for though I know they could work on the engine and have the test cells to trim the engine before installation. United rarely if ever trims the engines after installation as they never need to since it's done in the Engine test cells I saw some posts late last year where GE had pitched to Airbus using a version of the GE90 Engine on Airbus widebodies. Now that? Might make a difference and it would break the GE Exclusivity agreement with Boeing which didn't extend to the KC-46.. though the USAF could have had a hand in that as well.
 
changyou
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 am

Clackers wrote:
Maybe SQ to replace their 787s on local routes?

SQ is using the 78X and 359(regional) to replace the 333s.
 
mig17
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:50 am

So the conclusion of this topic is that the undisclosed customer of 40 A339 is either China for chinese airlines or Emirates since the 40 frames matches the pre DAS announcement.

The other airline potentially interested in "large" quantity of A339 are : United, Delta, Air Canada, Air Asia, Cathay, Air France / KLM, Air India, IAG, LH group, Turkish, Qantas, ..., lessors, ...
In fact every large airline out there with existing A330ceo's fleet or the need to replace large 767 fleets.
727 AT, 737 UX/SK/TO/SS, 747 UT/AF/SQ/BA/SS, 767 UA, 777 AF, A300 IW/TG, A310 EK, A318/19/20/21 AF/U2/VY, A332/3 EK/QR/TX, A343 AF, A388 AF, E145/170/190 A5/WF, Q400 WF, ATR 72 A5/TX, CRJ100/700/1000 A5, C-150/172, PC-6.
 
JayBCN
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:42 pm

Draken21fx wrote:
DDR wrote:
Congrats to Airbus. The A330 is an amazing aircraft from a passenger’s perspective. It’s also liked by flight attendants.


Because I am genuinely curious can you please elaborate on the last part of your sentence as to why the neo is liked by flight crew? Is it the case for the 350 or 787 and if not would you happen to know why?


He was referring to flight attendants Not flight Crew.

And that the A330 is liked by flight attendants is quite clear: you only ever have to reach over a maximum of 1 person - unlike 777/787/747/a350 and the lower deck of A380.

Also, seating of the A330 at 8-abreast is less dense per seat than 777 (10-abreast) and 787 (9-abreast)

Two solid facts.i am only referring to Y class which is where most people travel.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:55 pm

Drucocu wrote:
Can't help but hope it's something we'd never expect. Like an EU (U)LCC jumping into either high capacity short haul or even medium haul. On short haul especially in the current market where upgauging in frequency is getting more and more prohibitive due to constrained airports. One can't stop dreaming, can they?


This could indeed be the case for EasyJet or WizzAir. Both already went from A320 to A321, but for some routes even an A321 might be too small. Besides, they might have long haul ambitions in the future.
 
JayBCN
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:49 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
I'll thought there would be a few more before the end of the year.

Airplane of the Year 1994 will live on with her new engines.


Amazing how such a label can be a curse. Anyway, today’s a330 is not the a330 of 1994.
 
worldranger
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:29 am

On EKs current inflight podcast for January, during STCs customary interview he specifically mentions the upcoming arrivals of 787s, 77Xs, 350s....AND A330NEOs.

This is a post Xmas interview
 
DCA350
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:52 am

worldranger wrote:
On EKs current inflight podcast for January, during STCs customary interview he specifically mentions the upcoming arrivals of 787s, 77Xs, 350s....AND A330NEOs.

This is a post Xmas interview


Interesting, I still feel this is China. Emirates is loud, I can't ever remember them making an undisclosed order that was revealed later. That's standard practice for China until a state visit.
 
dfpinto
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:53 am

Going to bet on LH Group, because Brussels already operates Airbus LH fleet and Austrian's LH fleet is beyond ancient.

It's either that or obviously Ryanair going TATL :stirthepot:
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:02 am

dfpinto wrote:
Going to bet on LH Group, because Brussels already operates Airbus LH fleet and Austrian's LH fleet is beyond ancient.

It's either that or obviously Ryanair going TATL :stirthepot:


… Will say it again, LH (forgot the group bit in my last post....) lets look over the brim of our teacup, think out of the box, and suddenly there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Would also explain the ´undisclosed bit´ for those in the know......
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:20 am

cougar15 wrote:
dfpinto wrote:
Going to bet on LH Group, because Brussels already operates Airbus LH fleet and Austrian's LH fleet is beyond ancient.

It's either that or obviously Ryanair going TATL :stirthepot:


… Will say it again, LH (forgot the group bit in my last post....) lets look over the brim of our teacup, think out of the box, and suddenly there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Would also explain the ´undisclosed bit´ for those in the know......

Correct me if I am wrong, but LH, being a joint-stock company, would be requested to publish such a deal, wouldn't they?
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:44 am

LH Group I could see - but I note LX just refurbed their five remaining A343s, and their A333s are all fairly new and very capable so if it is them the birds will be for OS and SN, perhaps Edelweiss but doubtful for LX mainline.

12 for SN, circa 12 for OS, six for WK would leave circa ten for LH mainline which I don't think is enough to replace all their A333s. Would Eurowings get any I wonder, outside the SN flying they do?

But I agree it is possible.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:03 pm

cougar15 wrote:
dfpinto wrote:
Going to bet on LH Group, because Brussels already operates Airbus LH fleet and Austrian's LH fleet is beyond ancient.

It's either that or obviously Ryanair going TATL :stirthepot:


… Will say it again, LH (forgot the group bit in my last post....) lets look over the brim of our teacup, think out of the box, and suddenly there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Would also explain the ´undisclosed bit´ for those in the know......


Looking over the brim, thinking outside the box, still not seeing it.
Would be happy though, if you are right.

Apart from that, nice order for the Neo, betting on China here.
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm

Baldr wrote:
majano wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Not only that but they also keep bringing up carriers that would have been legally required to disclose such a large, multi-billion-dollar commitment even though numerous folks have explained those legal requirements for publicly-traded corporations.

So, would it have been better if the conversation stopped as soon as someone mentioned the name of China? I am not sure I understand where this is going given that most A-Net discussions are about speculation.


Quite a few a.netters seem to be unable to fathom that the A330-900 is turning out to be highly competitive with the 787-9. Therefore, they seem to believe that only China will be bulk buying A330neos, for political reasons, going forward. However, if China is going to be bulk buying A330neos -- say, 200+ units -- Airbus will very likely set up an A330neo FAL in Tianjin*.

IMJ, the firm order for 40 A330-900s is very likely from Emirates. The first aircraft can be delivered as early as mid 2021.

*Airbus is looking at assembling its newest A330neo wide-body jet in China as part of a bid to win orders for the plane in one of the world’s fastest-growing aviation markets, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

Airbus may expand its existing plant in Tianjin to accommodate the model, but a decision has not been made with the business case yet to be established, said the people, who asked not to be named because the discussions are private. The plan may not go ahead, they cautioned.

A spokesman for Airbus declined to comment.

Airbus previously offered to build its A380 superjumbo in China in exchange for orders from the country’s airlines, but that pitch was rejected amid concerns about the double-decker plane’s suitability for the local market, according to two of the people. The smaller, more fuel-efficient A330neo is potentially a better fit, with more than 200 of the original-generation model already sold in the Asian nation.

The move to extend the Tianjin plant -- which currently assembles Airbus’ single-aisle A320 workhorse -- comes as Rolls-Royce is said to be offering to establish a Chinese plant to secure an engine deal for the wide-body plane being developed by Comac. The UK company is pitching a derivative of the Trent 7000 turbine for that aircraft, which is also the only option on the A330neo.

China is set to become the world’s biggest plane market next decade and will need almost 8,000 aircraft worth $1.2 trillion over 20 years, according to Boeing estimates. President Xi Jinping has also earmarked aerospace as a priority industry, encouraging Western producers to set up shop in the country.

The A330neo -- abbreviated from new engine option -- assembly plant would add to an existing completion and delivery center for Airbus’ original A330, where planes get final touches before being shipped to the customers.


https://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/airbus-weighs-making-its-newest-jet-in-china-to-win-orders-1.831951


Actually, Airbus already has an A330 cabin fit facility in Tianjin and it can handle the NEO too.

So if the 40 unit order is from China, it might as well be political driven to keep the facility running.
Good moaning!
 
Ishrion
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:08 pm

Emirates is at the Kuwait Aviation Show 2020... would be good timing for them or another Middle East airline to announce the order IF it’s one of them.
 
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conaly
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:12 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
LH Group I could see - but I note LX just refurbed their five remaining A343s, and their A333s are all fairly new and very capable so if it is them the birds will be for OS and SN, perhaps Edelweiss but doubtful for LX mainline.

12 for SN, circa 12 for OS, six for WK would leave circa ten for LH mainline which I don't think is enough to replace all their A333s. Would Eurowings get any I wonder, outside the SN flying they do?

But I agree it is possible.


40 A339s seem a bit too much for LH group. The LH and LX A333s are pretty young and there are no plans to replace them in the near future, also SN is still using a number of not too old but second hand A333s (some of them are leased though). Of course there are a lot of other airplanes to replace, but they have a huge number of long haul aircraft on order (pax only):
30x A359, (+15 options +15 purchase rights)
20x B779 (and 14 options)
20x B789
Total 70 fix orders and 44 options.

This is enough to replace all 76 airplanes, which are said to be phased out by 2025:
2x A332 (SN)
26x A343 (17 LH, 5 LX, 4 WK)
17x A346 (LH)
6x A388 (LH)
13x B744 (LH)
6x B763 (OS)
6x B772 (OS)

It was mentioned several times, that all orders could be used at any group airline. The first 15 A359 were meant for LH only and all of them are delivered by now. All other A350, as well as some T7 (first few are reserved for LH mainline) and all Dreamliners could go to ANY airline. So I don't see another 40 A339 for LH group at all.
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:12 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
LH Group I could see - but I note LX just refurbed their five remaining A343s, and their A333s are all fairly new and very capable so if it is them the birds will be for OS and SN, perhaps Edelweiss but doubtful for LX mainline.

12 for SN, circa 12 for OS, six for WK would leave circa ten for LH mainline which I don't think is enough to replace all their A333s. Would Eurowings get any I wonder, outside the SN flying they do?

But I agree it is possible.


They could always get the -900s for LX and LH and then send LX's A330s onto OS or SN (or EW but since their long haul division is losing money hand over fist, that would seem unlikely. Not sure what the future is for LH's A330-300s, but I guess that the 787-9 order is timed nicely for their replacement.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Baldr
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:54 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Baldr wrote:
majano wrote:
So, would it have been better if the conversation stopped as soon as someone mentioned the name of China? I am not sure I understand where this is going given that most A-Net discussions are about speculation.


Quite a few a.netters seem to be unable to fathom that the A330-900 is turning out to be highly competitive with the 787-9. Therefore, they seem to believe that only China will be bulk buying A330neos, for political reasons, going forward. However, if China is going to be bulk buying A330neos -- say, 200+ units -- Airbus will very likely set up an A330neo FAL in Tianjin*.

IMJ, the firm order for 40 A330-900s is very likely from Emirates. The first aircraft can be delivered as early as mid 2021.

*Airbus is looking at assembling its newest A330neo wide-body jet in China as part of a bid to win orders for the plane in one of the world’s fastest-growing aviation markets, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

Airbus may expand its existing plant in Tianjin to accommodate the model, but a decision has not been made with the business case yet to be established, said the people, who asked not to be named because the discussions are private. The plan may not go ahead, they cautioned.

A spokesman for Airbus declined to comment.

Airbus previously offered to build its A380 superjumbo in China in exchange for orders from the country’s airlines, but that pitch was rejected amid concerns about the double-decker plane’s suitability for the local market, according to two of the people. The smaller, more fuel-efficient A330neo is potentially a better fit, with more than 200 of the original-generation model already sold in the Asian nation.

The move to extend the Tianjin plant -- which currently assembles Airbus’ single-aisle A320 workhorse -- comes as Rolls-Royce is said to be offering to establish a Chinese plant to secure an engine deal for the wide-body plane being developed by Comac. The UK company is pitching a derivative of the Trent 7000 turbine for that aircraft, which is also the only option on the A330neo.

China is set to become the world’s biggest plane market next decade and will need almost 8,000 aircraft worth $1.2 trillion over 20 years, according to Boeing estimates. President Xi Jinping has also earmarked aerospace as a priority industry, encouraging Western producers to set up shop in the country.

The A330neo -- abbreviated from new engine option -- assembly plant would add to an existing completion and delivery center for Airbus’ original A330, where planes get final touches before being shipped to the customers.


https://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/airbus-weighs-making-its-newest-jet-in-china-to-win-orders-1.831951


Actually, Airbus already has an A330 cabin fit facility in Tianjin and it can handle the NEO too.

So if the 40 unit order is from China, it might as well be political driven to keep the facility running.


Actually, the A350 is set to be integrated into the Tianjin completion centre from the second half of this year.

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/a350-set-to-be-integrated-into-tianjin-completion-centre/135187.article
 
outoftheice
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:23 pm

My guess is it is for AC to replace the 767s at Rouge, the small number of 767s remaining at mainline and the hodge podge of 330 leases Air Canada has added to its fleet in the few years. That would pretty much bang on 40 aircraft and the timing is right, especially when it comes to replacing the Rouge fleet.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:44 pm

outoftheice wrote:
My guess is it is for AC to replace the 767s at Rouge, the small number of 767s remaining at mainline and the hodge podge of 330 leases Air Canada has added to its fleet in the few years. That would pretty much bang on 40 aircraft and the timing is right, especially when it comes to replacing the Rouge fleet.


The numbers certainly fit and the need certainly is there. My own thought though, is that until the MAX debacle is settled and the Transat merger as well, AC won't be in an ordering mood.

I suspect Boeing may offer AC a screaming deal on some more 787s. However I doubt AC would add 787s just to add 787s. An A330NEO might be a better fleet fit, and a screaming deal on 787s and discount A330 NEOs might not be that far apart in price. Buying aircraft is like buying a car: buy more than you need, and you're sinking yourself financially.

That said I would like this to be for AC. The 767s are getting long in the tooth and my experience with them at Rouge has been mixed: flown on them 4 times, two of those incurred big technical delays. One coming back from Glasgow was so big, that my wife and I ended up with our trip being free thanks to the EU compensation for delays over 4 hours (side note, AC first offered us $100 travel vouchers; I refused and filed a claim as per the EU rules and AC finally coughed up with 600 Euros in compensation, which converted into CDN$ was pretty close to the $850 return fair we paid!).

Hopefully if it is for AC they'll retain the 2-4-2 config in Y. Only the 2-3-2 in the 767 beats it, but on Rouge, the leg room is terrible and I'm not super tall, 5'11".

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seahawk
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:10 pm

AC would also need to report an order.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:36 pm

What about a Chinese bank as a lessor, such as ICBC? This would be for airlines in China.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:52 pm

Obviously Alaska Airlines. They are finally flying to Europe and Asia.
Oops, it is not April 1st yet
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GlobalAirways
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:07 pm

China... for sure.
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Scotron12
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:13 pm

GlobalAirways wrote:
China... for sure.


After all is said and done, Airbus has the order for 40 x A339s no matter who it's for!

I still think it's for EK. They never categorically stated they were cancelling the A339 options, they just did not firm the order at the DAS.

As the so called "launch" customer for the 779 (LH too AFAIR), they made statements at DAS that they expected a 16 month test on the 779 before certification, even going as far to request testing actually performed in Dubai. So I don't see the EIS in 2021. More likely 2022. Im sure Boeing is keeping EK up to date on the last test schedules.

That is another reason I think it's for EK. Plus they will be able to receive them as early as end of this year, early 2021.
 
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:09 am

It is being reported that HNA group is behind this order

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN20D2SZ
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hOMSaR
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft, UPDATE: HNA group revealed as buyer

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:15 am

What is/was the order that is being restructured as part of this deal?
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rufusmi
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft, UPDATE: HNA group revealed as buyer

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:19 am

Aren’t they on the brink of bankruptcy? Surely now is not the time to place a large aircraft order?
 
Prost
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Re: Undisclosed customer orders 40 A330 NEO aircraft, UPDATE: HNA group revealed as buyer

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:22 am

Courageous order. I wish them well.

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