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Agrajag
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Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:23 pm

I have started this thread so that we can discuss specifically the training that Max pilots received in the past and what training they should receive in the future. We can discuss any prior inadequacies of this training and any potential impact such inadequacies may have had.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
oschkosch
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:28 pm

IMHO this thread is a good idea, thank you for opening it!

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:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Agrajag
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:33 pm

oschkosch wrote:
IMHO this thread is a good idea, thank you for opening it!

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


Thank you. I think there is much to be said...
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:52 pm

The initial training requirements for the MAX were driven by SWA desire, or maybe mandate would be a better word, that no simulator time be required for this transition, There was a reportedly 1 Million dollar per aircraft penalty written into the SWA MAX contract. As such, Boeing was driven to minimize the materials and time required, and it bit them badly. Boeing Commercial Aircraft Sales was known for agreements between Boeing and the customer that were difficult for other organizations within Boeing to meet, but the selling of an aircraft was paramount, and everything else was driven to support this concept. The debacle that Boeing finds them selves in today was of their own doing, but don't think it was intentional.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:15 pm

[url]Boeing Commercial Aircraft Sales was known for agreements between Boeing and the customer that were difficult for other organizations within Boeing to meet, but the selling of an aircraft was paramount,[/url]

Not unique to BCA.

GF
 
SocalApproach
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:16 pm

This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

The idea that pilots would be able to fly the 737NG and the MAX under 1 Type to save cost in pilot training like how A32N and A32Ceo should no longer apply. Because of this it in my opinion leaves the door open that the MAX gets cancelled altogether as pilot training cost and the need to have a separate pool of pilots to fly these birds offset the fuel savings benefits.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:19 pm

There may need to be significant software, hardware and physical changes to the MAX simulators, to pilot handbooks and checklists, that cannot really take place until the 'fix' is done on actual aircraft, both the simulators and planes themselves tested to the n'th degree. Then you have the shortage of MAX simulators, how long and costs it will take to do the actual simulator and real flight checks.
 
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par13del
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:38 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?

Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:41 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

The idea that pilots would be able to fly the 737NG and the MAX under 1 Type to save cost in pilot training like how A32N and A32Ceo should no longer apply. Because of this it in my opinion leaves the door open that the MAX gets cancelled altogether as pilot training cost and the need to have a separate pool of pilots to fly these birds offset the fuel savings benefits.



I see no reason why there would be a need for an additional MAX type rating when this is all fixed and in place. The bigger question be if sim loads can be developed for the NG that would allow for them to emulate the MAX?. There just is not that much difference when all is said and done.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
There may need to be significant software, hardware and physical changes to the MAX simulators, to pilot handbooks and checklists, that cannot really take place until the 'fix' is done on actual aircraft, both the simulators and planes themselves tested to the n'th degree. Then you have the shortage of MAX simulators, how long and costs it will take to do the actual simulator and real flight checks.



Simulators should not require significant physical; changes. The QRH and FCOM are in all likelihood ready to go when given the green light. Not sure how many MAX sims have been built without the MCAS emulation but once designed and delivered it should not take that long. At most the insertion of new MCAS material in a 737 initial of recurrent training footprint should not exceed 30 minutes, if that. It would heve been so much easier had this been done early on. Cheaper as well.
 
Agrajag
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:50 pm

The disclosure yesterday showed how airlines were requesting training but there was a deliberate and successful effort by Boeing to discourage them by cynically attempting to make them feel stupid for requesting it. The motivation for Boeing's behaviour was greed. Its outrageous!
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:30 pm

I think you are reading to much into a internal IM or email. One persons comments do no define the enire organization. There have always been two schools of thought regarding how much information and training the pilots nned to operate the aircraft and in this case it was poorly concieved for sure. Not greed but rather having trained thousands of pilots prior to the MAX without incident, they thought this was just another non issue.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:16 pm

Agrajag wrote:
The disclosure yesterday showed how airlines were requesting training but there was a deliberate and successful effort by Boeing to discourage them by cynically attempting to make them feel stupid for requesting it. The motivation for Boeing's behaviour was greed. Its outrageous!



It would appear that your real reason for starting this thread is simply to create another platform for baking Boeing. That's to bad as the subject of future training requirements will be interesting to watch develop within the regulatory organizations/ Airline training is a very dynamic subject with a lot of smart men and women working to make it better while defending the onslaught of various operator trying to reduce the footprint at each and every opportunity.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:04 pm

par13del wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?

Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.


The 767-400 requires a sim session at United and it is the same type as all other 757s and 767s
 
morrisond
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:11 pm

par13del wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?

Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.


This is simple - The MAX training will most likely be - this is how you identify MCAS failure and then run Trim Runaway NNC checklist that is common to NG and MAX - plus how to use the trim wheel properly.

I strongly suspect the outcome of the MAX disasters will be more focus on how to run a NNC on all types and the trim wheels on all aircraft so equipped.
 
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par13del
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:15 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
The 767-400 requires a sim session at United and it is the same type as all other 757s and 767s

Great, now compare the expected deployment base when the 767-400 was produced against the expected deployment base when the MAX was created or in this case when it is given RTS. The issue is whether the FAA and EASA will go for mandatory sim training and what that training will be...with less than 50 simulators available world wide against a potential couple thousand frames imagine the logistics of that, which has to be considered by the regulators and the airlines even while they determine the details of the training.
Like I said, the devil will be in the details. Imagine if existing NG sims cannot be updated for MAX as they will still be needed for the thousands of NG's still in operation and may be for a few more years if not a decade or so.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:21 pm

par13del wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
The 767-400 requires a sim session at United and it is the same type as all other 757s and 767s

Great, now compare the expected deployment base when the 767-400 was produced against the expected deployment base when the MAX was created or in this case when it is given RTS. The issue is whether the FAA and EASA will go for mandatory sim training and what that training will be...with less than 50 simulators available world wide against a potential couple thousand frames imagine the logistics of that, which has to be considered by the regulators and the airlines even while they determine the details of the training.
Like I said, the devil will be in the details. Imagine if existing NG sims cannot be updated for MAX as they will still be needed for the thousands of NG's still in operation and may be for a few more years if not a decade or so.


You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If they require a MAX session in training they will get 1. Just like on the 767 the crew will finish their check ride then get a 767-400 sim for differences. 1 MAX sim could train 5 crews per day or 150 crews per month and currently United runs 60ish Qual crews a month. So more than enough room with 1 sim.

If RTS requires every pilot to get 1 sim then they can send 300 pilots through a month.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:49 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
par13del wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
This has probably been answered before but digging through 400 pages in the MAX grounding thread isn’t appealing so my question is this. When the MAX flies again I will be classified as a new type ?

In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?

Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.


The 767-400 requires a sim session at United and it is the same type as all other 757s and 767s


The 767-400 has a totally different flight display then the 767-300/757-200 and that is what causes the additional sim session. Delta treats the -400 as a separate category. even though it is the same type rating.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
par13del wrote:
In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?

Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.


The 767-400 requires a sim session at United and it is the same type as all other 757s and 767s


The 767-400 has a totally different flight display then the 767-300/757-200 and that is what causes the additional sim session. Delta treats the -400 as a separate category. even though it is the same type rating.


Agreed.

I was responding to par13del calling it hypocritical to mandate a sim in an aircraft sub category and keep it the same type. Precedence has been set. Even as far back as the 767 and 757 being the same type......the systems are not even the same. RAT vs HMG is what stands out the most.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:45 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

The 767-400 has a totally different flight display then the 767-300/757-200 and that is what causes the additional sim session. Delta treats the -400 as a separate category. even though it is the same type rating.


Agreed.

I was responding to par13del calling it hypocritical to mandate a sim in an aircraft sub category and keep it the same type. Precedence has been set. Even as far back as the 767 and 757 being the same type......the systems are not even the same. RAT vs HMG is what stands out the most.


What?


A 757 has a ram air turbine (RAT) for total electrical failure and the 767 has a hydraulic motor generator (HMG)
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:48 pm

Lets hope by the time MAX returns to service, the new simulator provider TRU works out all the kinks and able to supply simulators or train pilots on MAX. Beats me why Boeing changed the supplier other than to save few dollars. Will an established provider like CAE develop their own simulator or do they have to buy from TRU even for their institutions, or airlines have to send pilots exclusively to TRU.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:56 am

Sidebar but CriticalPoint, it sounds like you’re at TK. Are the MAX sims in yet? I finished qual (on the 756) in October and haven’t been back but I heard the G building is finished. If a sim is required, it sounds like we’ll be pretty well set up, hopefully.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:43 am

Before MCAS was an issue, and had it been implemented properly, simulator differences training was not needed for the MAX. And I don't see any reason for more than one simulator session, per crew, on the MAX at RTS.

If crews "need" training on how to trim manually, we have some very bad problems in this industry.
 
Seat0F
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:38 am

It will be interesting to see what impact this debacle has on the 777X pilot training for pilots who fly the 777 classics, as they have the same type-rating. Does anyone know what training is required between the 2 types, and is this likely to change as a result of the MAX? Will airlines like EK and BA keep the same pilot pool for the current and future 777 models?
 
Interested
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Interested wrote:
morrisond wrote:

That is a noble goal - but as I'm not sure your aware - the aircraft with the largest production back log right now has a manual trim wheel as well. Pilots need to know to properly use all controls and how to handle an aircraft in all its degraded states.

I am not intimately familiar with that aircraft - but there is a reason it is on the aircraft.


And we have to live with it on the aircraft it's already on. We don't need to introduce a new aircraft where it's more likely to be needed.

I don't want the Max back in the air if manual trim is more likely to be needed or more crucial to our safety

Simple as that. It would be a backward step.

I don't want these planes to fly again if they take anything backwards from what we already have

That's not a noble aim. That's something that's more than fair. If we go backwards in any aspect of safety the Max should simply not be certified and Boeing get on with designing something else where safety overrides any other pressures

Even tiny extra risks are magnified by the potential number of flights

None of us should accept any compromise in safety


The 787 has pitch augmentation(you only trim for airspeed changes). Even though it’s mostly a computer it can still runaway. You will never program out failures.

As a pilot I feel infinitely better knowing I can still manually trim the plane when the computer goes bonkers.


Yes but doesn't Max bad design mean manual trim may be needed more than in the past?

Do we need to be flying planes that need MCAS to fly safely?

If we can't eliminate manual trim can't we at least design planes that will barely ever need it and when they do its almost impossible to crash the plane anyway?

Sorry I'm a layman so I'm talking generally here. I have no real knowledge. But just a rough idea of why Max is a bad design and less safe than it should be
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:29 am

Seat0F wrote:
It will be interesting to see what impact this debacle has on the 777X pilot training for pilots who fly the 777 classics, as they have the same type-rating. Does anyone know what training is required between the 2 types, and is this likely to change as a result of the MAX? Will airlines like EK and BA keep the same pilot pool for the current and future 777 models?


Again precedence has already been set. The 787 and the 777 are considered by some world regulators and Boeing to be the same type rating.

The 777 has TAC that negates the need for the pilot to add rudder on the ground when an engine fails. The 787 does not have this and the pilot MUST add all required rudder on the ground when the engine fails.

That is such a huge difference between two aircraft worth the same type rating. I doubt the differences on the 777x will be anywhere near that.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:30 am

Acey559 wrote:
Sidebar but CriticalPoint, it sounds like you’re at TK. Are the MAX sims in yet? I finished qual (on the 756) in October and haven’t been back but I heard the G building is finished. If a sim is required, it sounds like we’ll be pretty well set up, hopefully.


Nope not in TK anymore. Iv been there off and on throughout my career.

Welcome to United!
 
KFTG
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:59 am

Acey559 wrote:
Are the MAX sims in yet?

No - just the FTD. Sim #1 arrives next week.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:55 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Agreed.

I was responding to par13del calling it hypocritical to mandate a sim in an aircraft sub category and keep it the same type. Precedence has been set. Even as far back as the 767 and 757 being the same type......the systems are not even the same. RAT vs HMG is what stands out the most.


What?


A 757 has a ram air turbine (RAT) for total electrical failure and the 767 has a hydraulic motor generator (HMG)


Rrrright. Or actually not. The RAT is on both 757 and 767. It has NOTHING to do with electricals, but powers the Center Hyd sys for flight controls in case of dual engine failure. The Hydraulic Driven Generator is found on ETOPS capable 757s and 767s. So you have just failed your 757/767 knowledge test.
 
morrisond
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:43 pm

Interested wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Interested wrote:

And we have to live with it on the aircraft it's already on. We don't need to introduce a new aircraft where it's more likely to be needed.

I don't want the Max back in the air if manual trim is more likely to be needed or more crucial to our safety

Simple as that. It would be a backward step.

I don't want these planes to fly again if they take anything backwards from what we already have

That's not a noble aim. That's something that's more than fair. If we go backwards in any aspect of safety the Max should simply not be certified and Boeing get on with designing something else where safety overrides any other pressures

Even tiny extra risks are magnified by the potential number of flights

None of us should accept any compromise in safety


The 787 has pitch augmentation(you only trim for airspeed changes). Even though it’s mostly a computer it can still runaway. You will never program out failures.

As a pilot I feel infinitely better knowing I can still manually trim the plane when the computer goes bonkers.


Yes but doesn't Max bad design mean manual trim may be needed more than in the past?

Do we need to be flying planes that need MCAS to fly safely?

If we can't eliminate manual trim can't we at least design planes that will barely ever need it and when they do its almost impossible to crash the plane anyway?

Sorry I'm a layman so I'm talking generally here. I have no real knowledge. But just a rough idea of why Max is a bad design and less safe than it should be



No Plane is almost impossible to crash - it just depends on how creative the crews get - See AirAsia 8501.
 
bigb
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:49 pm

The CRJ-200 and CRJ-700/900 are considered the same type rating. Both are really different.....
 
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par13del
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:16 pm

Maybe the technical folks will weigh in an give the minimum requirements for two a/c to have the same type rating.
 
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PW100
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:11 pm

morrisond wrote:
par13del wrote:
In my opinion, to make simulator training mandatory it would have to be made a new type, anything else becomes hypocritical.
If MCAS is automated requiring no pilot input, what training will be necessary? Is there even going to be a test flight in a plane designed without MCAS?
Unless new screens are put in requiring a new type, what indicators / warnings will there be to only indicate a MCAS error and reduce the overload, alarms etc?
What new memory checklist item will be developed for MCAS that has nothing to do with any other trim failure to make that list unique requiring specific training?
Some may like a gotcha moment saying Boeing was wrong and simulator training is required, but the devil is in the details.

This is simple - The MAX training will most likely be - this is how you identify MCAS failure and then run Trim Runaway NNC checklist that is common to NG and MAX - plus how to use the trim wheel properly.
I strongly suspect the outcome of the MAX disasters will be more focus on how to run a NNC on all types and the trim wheels on all aircraft so equipped.


I strongly suspect that a good deal of NNCs will have to be re-written, re-validated around multi alarms and warnings going off at the same time. Not to mention new issues intoduced by having two FCCs active and talking to each other in real time.

I do agree that additional (simulator) training would probably be required to help identify correct NNC for any given set of multi alarms and warnings.
Mind you, the first worlds pilots at Boeing simulator sessions confirmed this (not sure if your remark was suggesting that 150 hrs third world pilots not being able to run an NNC).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:31 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Lets hope by the time MAX returns to service, the new simulator provider TRU works out all the kinks and able to supply simulators or train pilots on MAX. Beats me why Boeing changed the supplier other than to save few dollars. Will an established provider like CAE develop their own simulator or do they have to buy from TRU even for their institutions, or airlines have to send pilots exclusively to TRU.



Pretty much a case of low bidder, combined the fact when CAE became of "official" training organiztion for Airbus, Boeing got its nose out of joint and pouted like a small child. If you read the latest dump of emails from Boeing you will find lots of negative remarks regarding TRU. To make matters worse, the 777X sim is being built by TRU. Sometimes you have wonder what goes through the minds of Boeing Leadership Teams, other than bonus numbers.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:30 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

What?


A 757 has a ram air turbine (RAT) for total electrical failure and the 767 has a hydraulic motor generator (HMG)


Rrrright. Or actually not. The RAT is on both 757 and 767. It has NOTHING to do with electricals, but powers the Center Hyd sys for flight controls in case of dual engine failure. The Hydraulic Driven Generator is found on ETOPS capable 757s and 767s. So you have just failed your 757/767 knowledge test.


Ok you are correct the RAT is for hydraulics on the 757/767. And the HMG is for electrics I got my 787 systems crossed......it’s been a long time since Iv flow the 757/767.

Thanks for being so kind though!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:34 pm

Okay, for bouns points only, which airline had two HMGs on their 767-200ERs :}
 
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Acey559
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Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:57 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Acey559 wrote:
Sidebar but CriticalPoint, it sounds like you’re at TK. Are the MAX sims in yet? I finished qual (on the 756) in October and haven’t been back but I heard the G building is finished. If a sim is required, it sounds like we’ll be pretty well set up, hopefully.


Nope not in TK anymore. Iv been there off and on throughout my career.

Welcome to United!


Thanks! Beyond happy and grateful to be here.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
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Acey559
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:04 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Okay, for bouns points only, which airline had two HMGs on their 767-200ERs :}


Qantas had three on their -300s. There are a few in service at ATI flying around the Amazon system. I didn’t even know it was a thing to have three but it was an awesome sim demonstration to lose all AC buses but not lose any avionics up front.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:18 pm

Good for you! I didn't know they had 3 on the 300 and little surprised. They did have 2 on the -200ER for awhile but rmoved one of them after some time in service. Plus....you never got fuel trappped in he center tank.
 
Interested
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: Max pilot training, past, present and future.

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:56 pm

morrisond wrote:
Interested wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

The 787 has pitch augmentation(you only trim for airspeed changes). Even though it’s mostly a computer it can still runaway. You will never program out failures.

As a pilot I feel infinitely better knowing I can still manually trim the plane when the computer goes bonkers.


Yes but doesn't Max bad design mean manual trim may be needed more than in the past?

Do we need to be flying planes that need MCAS to fly safely?

If we can't eliminate manual trim can't we at least design planes that will barely ever need it and when they do its almost impossible to crash the plane anyway?

Sorry I'm a layman so I'm talking generally here. I have no real knowledge. But just a rough idea of why Max is a bad design and less safe than it should be



No Plane is almost impossible to crash - it just depends on how creative the crews get - See AirAsia 8501.


Don't expect planes to be impossible to crash

I don't expect companies like Boeing to introduce flawed design planes that are less safe than the ones they replace and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. However, deep in they are with Max

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