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jfklganyc
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UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:52 pm

I’m hearing through the grapevine it is a goner

Anyone have more info?
 
jplatts
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:06 pm

UA CLE-LGA nonstop flights are still showing up in UA's flight schedules through December 13, 2020.

While CLE is no longer a hub for UA, one reason why UA kept CLE-LGA nonstop flights is due to UA having corporate contracts in NYC and a frequent flyer base in NYC due to UA's EWR hub.

UA would still be able to get passengers to CLE from NYC (and vice versa) out of EWR if UA drops CLE-LGA nonstop service, and there are also UA FF's in both the CLE and NYC markets who would be willing to take the CLE-EWR nonstops instead of the CLE-LGA nonstops if UA drops CLE-LGA nonstop service. EWR is also close enough to Manhattan to be a viable option if UA drops CLE-LGA nonstop service.
 
masseybrown
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:22 pm

With AA and DL service in the market, who cares? As UA's frequent flyer base in Cleveland melts away, UA's CLE schedule will become hubs-only. CLE-DCA will probably be next.
 
avtcle
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:32 pm

Good. Their product is horrible. (5 daily E145s). They’re competing with AA E175s and DL CRJ9s, both of which have a premium product. They’ll be handing a reliable, lucrative route over to DL and AA, both of which operate better planes on the route anyway!

United did say not too long ago that Cleveland’s future with the airline would only be “flying to and from a hub”
 
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STT757
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:46 pm

Well it’s very likely that DCA-CLE will be gone soon, UA announced they’re increasing EWR-DCA from eight to thirteen daily flights. Those five additional slots will have to come from somewhere and I doubt it would be at the expense of ORD or IAH.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... spurt/amp/

But what would they do with the LGA slots, more ORD, DEN and IAH?


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TWA772LR
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:52 pm

Given it's probably a corporate contract, maybe UA would stand to gain more by making it a CRJ550 route?
When wasn't America great?


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tphuang
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:56 pm

Maybe they are trading those slots to someone for additional dca slots in order to do the ewr dca shuttle.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:16 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Given it's probably a corporate contract, maybe UA would stand to gain more by making it a CRJ550 route?


Who says the company (ies) is buying E+ or F?
 
Scarebus34
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:23 pm

avtcle wrote:
Good. Their product is horrible. (5 daily E145s). They’re competing with AA E175s and DL CRJ9s, both of which have a premium product. They’ll be handing a reliable, lucrative route over to DL and AA, both of which operate better planes on the route anyway!

United did say not too long ago that Cleveland’s future with the airline would only be “flying to and from a hub”

The flight is under an hour long - who cares.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:41 pm

What is your source?
 
ncflyer
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:47 pm

I do! United ERJ really show their age, gotta be 25 years old. Delta every time-- to say nothing of the fact that UA Basic Economy does not permit a gate checked bag.

A slight correction I believe AA only flies E175 once a day, it's the same cramped 50 seaters on the other two.

AA's schedule is horrible, to LGA, 6AM, 9AM 12:30PM.

To CLE, 10AM, 7:39PM, 10PM.

I can't even tell you what type of traveler a schedule like that appeals to. Even a CLE business traveler would rather not wait until 7:39PM to head home after a day trip to NY if they could help it.
 
avtcle
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 pm

Delta would be the first airline up to increase frequencies on CLE LGA. When United pulled out of RDU, BDL, Delta was in. When United then pulled out of BOS, Delta was in. If United ACTUALLY does cut CLE LGA, which is 100% not confirmed and there’s no source, Delta and AA would be in to fill the void, no doubt.
 
jplatts
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:11 pm

masseybrown wrote:
With AA and DL service in the market, who cares? As UA's frequent flyer base in Cleveland melts away, UA's CLE schedule will become hubs-only. CLE-DCA will probably be next.


avtcle wrote:
United did say not too long ago that Cleveland’s future with the airline would only be “flying to and from a hub”


UA still serves a few destinations apart from hubs, LGA, or DCA nonstop from CLE such as CHS, FLL, RSW, MCO, and TPA. I think that UA dropping nonstop service to CHS, FLL, RSW, MCO, and TPA will probably happen with UA's only other remaining nonstop routes out of CLE being either to hubs or destinations in the same markets as UA hub airports.

I agree that UA dropping CLE-LGA nonstop service is a possibility as UA FF's in the CLE and NYC markets would still have nonstop access between the CLE and NYC markets on UA via EWR if UA drops CLE-LGA nonstop service.

I also agree that UA dropping CLE-DCA nonstop service is a possibility as UA would still continue to serve IAD nonstop from CLE if it discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service. There are also some travelers in the DC market (even some who live closer to DCA or BWI) who do fly on UA nonstop flights out of IAD to within-DCA perimeter domestic destinations. There would also be more travelers in the DC market (including some who live closer to DCA) who would be willing to take the UA IAD-CLE nonstop flights if UA drops CLE-DCA nonstop service.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:13 pm

UA has the most subpar product on LGA-CLE and has for years compared to DL and AA. Aside from one E175 it is usually E145s and they are shabby inside and uncomfortable with zero amenities. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, CO was flying everything from MD80s, 731s, 733s, 735s, 737-700s, 738s, and occasionally, post merger, an A319/320. I don't see UA axing LGA-CLE until they figure out what to do with the slots.
 
FSDan
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:20 pm

tphuang wrote:
Maybe they are trading those slots to someone for additional dca slots in order to do the ewr dca shuttle.


They shouldn't need to, though. If they just cut CLE-DCA that gives them the DCA slots they need. I don't see why they'd cut CLE-LGA while going to lengths like trading slots to keep CLE-DCA alive. These two routes are the only remaining point-to-point ER4 routes from CLE, so I think they're likely to live or die together.
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masseybrown
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:34 pm

FSDan wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Maybe they are trading those slots to someone for additional dca slots in order to do the ewr dca shuttle.


They shouldn't need to, though. If they just cut CLE-DCA that gives them the DCA slots they need. I don't see why they'd cut CLE-LGA while going to lengths like trading slots to keep CLE-DCA alive. These two routes are the only remaining point-to-point ER4 routes from CLE, so I think they're likely to live or die together.


The only one hurt will be Commutair which flies a couple of these frequencies to rotate CLE-domiciled crew. I guess they can switch to IAD and EWR. UA is always delighted to run a non-competitive product on monopoly routes.
Last edited by masseybrown on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
jplatts
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:35 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
UA has the most subpar product on LGA-CLE and has for years compared to DL and AA. Aside from one E175 it is usually E145s and they are shabby inside and uncomfortable with zero amenities. Back in the 1990s and early 2000s, CO was flying everything from MD80s, 731s, 733s, 735s, 737-700s, 738s, and occasionally, post merger, an A319/320. I don't see UA axing LGA-CLE until they figure out what to do with the slots.


UA could move 1 or 2 of the slots it currently uses on LGA-CLE over to LGA-IAD, and UA could move 1 of the slots that it currently uses on LGA-CLE over to LGA-DEN.

UA could transfer 2 or 3 of the slots that it currently uses on the LGA-CLE nonstop route to a LCC competitor such as WN or NK if it drops LGA-CLE nonstop service as UA would still be able to increase capacity at LGA by upgauging its LGA-ORD, LGA-DEN, LGA-IAH, and LGA-IAD nonstop flights to larger aircraft if UA gave up 2 or 3 slots at LGA. UA also has plenty of nonstop service to ORD, DEN, IAH, and IAD from EWR.
 
Capt.Fantastic
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:38 pm

I can recall back in the 1980s, they were flying almost hourly CLE-LGA with 732s and 727s. Their operation at CLE at the time was quite interesting.
After the merger, I kinda hoped United would stick around somewhat and maintain a presence like Delta does in CVG. It's a shame CLE had to endure two pull-backs by United.
 
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STT757
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UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:39 pm

Why would they transfer a LGA slots to an LCC, what would they get? If they were to transfer the LGA slots they would be to AA or B6. Since LGA slots are
More valuable than Kennedy slots they could do a two for one trade. 10 Kennedy slots for five LGA.

I think AA or B6 would take that, I wouldn’t trade with DL as their too competitive with UA in the NYC Market.

They’re already at 15 daily with LGA-ORD, with a couple frequencies with ERJ-175s. I don’t see additional frequencies there. LGA-IAH is daily and LGA-DEN is 7.


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joeljack
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:01 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Given it's probably a corporate contract, maybe UA would stand to gain more by making it a CRJ550 route?


I think if they switched to CRJ550 on this route as well as DCA they would help to keep the loyal United fliers in CLE. Seems like they could make some money in CLE as a focus city. They just need to add back BOS and CLE would be well covered to keep elites that are high margin happy and loyal in CLE.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 pm

UA reductions have been the topic around the water cooler at CLE for at least a year. Nothing's happened yet, but it won't be surprising if something does - average fares have been low to/from CLE for quite awhile. A good time to travel to/from the area, but not so great for the carriers.

Over the Holidays, we flew from LAX-CLE for OW$38 on UA; the person checking us in commented that she thought it was an award ticket at first!

avtcle wrote:
Delta would be the first airline up to increase frequencies on CLE LGA. When United pulled out of RDU, BDL, Delta was in. When United then pulled out of BOS, Delta was in. If United ACTUALLY does cut CLE LGA, which is 100% not confirmed and there’s no source, Delta and AA would be in to fill the void, no doubt.


Whatever moves DL or AA make would be barely noticeable. DL, for example, already flies the route up to 6x a day with CR9. A large chuck of UA's FF base, especially the lion's share based in NYC, will stick with the carrier, meaning that the traffic up for grabs will be minimal and given DL and AA's LF, readily absorbed. (DL and AA aren't interested in passengers paying $99 for their fare, so some of that traffic will vanish).
 
joeman
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:09 pm

masseybrown wrote:
With AA and DL service in the market, who cares? As UA's frequent flyer base in Cleveland melts away, UA's CLE schedule will become hubs-only...

The sooner the better... 6yrs after hub dismantling and reduction drama continues
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:16 pm

joeman wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
With AA and DL service in the market, who cares? As UA's frequent flyer base in Cleveland melts away, UA's CLE schedule will become hubs-only...

The sooner the better... 6yrs after hub dismantling and reduction drama continues


You should care about reductions, since it'll yield less options and ultimately higher fares. And what "reduction drama?" Sure, UA cut a couple RJ flights, but they've added mainline service... just plane business (pardon the pun), not drama.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:08 pm

ncflyer wrote:
I do! United ERJ really show their age, gotta be 25 years old. Delta every time-- to say nothing of the fact that UA Basic Economy does not permit a gate checked bag.

A slight correction I believe AA only flies E175 once a day, it's the same cramped 50 seaters on the other two.

AA's schedule is horrible, to LGA, 6AM, 9AM 12:30PM.

To CLE, 10AM, 7:39PM, 10PM.

I can't even tell you what type of traveler a schedule like that appeals to. Even a CLE business traveler would rather not wait until 7:39PM to head home after a day trip to NY if they could help it.


Then don’t fly Basic Economy......
 
ncflyer
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:14 pm

That’s a comment that misses the point. If a passenger can fly basic economy on AA or DL with a bag, over UA without one, why wouldn’t they? I’ve stopped flying UA in CLE when I have a choice and won’t miss them if these rumors are true.
 
Trk1
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:45 am

The Cleveland threads have become among most negative and nasty on the forum:
1. We now have a constant negative and personal comments about airport management. The posters always know more about route development and
attracting more flights then those on the job--in spite of massive airline and route additions in the last 6 years.

2. They are routing for airlines to drop routes from Cleveland for some personal vendetta.


3. Constant negative comments about the terminal when they know a new master plan is in the works

4. Never mention the actual excellent airfield operations that set Cleveland airport from most hails in the midwest

We can do better than this folks!!
 
avtcle
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:30 am

^very much agreed. I’ve reiterated this in the CLE forum a lot: if you only focus on the negative it will seem like nothing good ever happens. Every airport has its issues.
 
kavok
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:52 am

I don’t like the negative posts either (and there are plenty), but the truth is CLE is in a challenging position. Regardless of what you think of the airport authority, they are not in an envious position. Much worse than most. CLE is basically an airport that should be a UA focus city, but isn’t because 1: UA doesn’t do focus cities, and 2: UA can continue to neglect CLE but still retain most of the business traffic because despite the cuts, UA remains the best option.

As far as strengthening AA/DL/UA or WN, there is no obvious path forward. In regards to AA, CLE is always going to lose out to PIT, given the historical USAir hub there. A similar story happens with DL, given the proximity to both DTW and CVG. WN seems to have doubled down at MDW and BWI, and CLE is not far enough away from either to warrant a focus city. Finally, UA realizes no one else will invest in CLE, so they don’t have to offer anything special to retain business pax. Hence the LGA drop, because they know the pax will reluctantly use EWR.
 
N766UA
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:56 am

Did this really need its own thread? It's already being discussed in both the UA route/network thread *and* the "Cleveland Aviation" thread.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:45 am

kavok wrote:
I don’t like the negative posts either (and there are plenty), but the truth is CLE is in a challenging position. Regardless of what you think of the airport authority, they are not in an envious position. Much worse than most. CLE is basically an airport that should be a UA focus city, but isn’t because 1: UA doesn’t do focus cities, and 2: UA can continue to neglect CLE but still retain most of the business traffic because despite the cuts, UA remains the best option.

As far as strengthening AA/DL/UA or WN, there is no obvious path forward. In regards to AA, CLE is always going to lose out to PIT, given the historical USAir hub there. A similar story happens with DL, given the proximity to both DTW and CVG. WN seems to have doubled down at MDW and BWI, and CLE is not far enough away from either to warrant a focus city. Finally, UA realizes no one else will invest in CLE, so they don’t have to offer anything special to retain business pax. Hence the LGA drop, because they know the pax will reluctantly use EWR.


I don't buy the idea DL would somehow shy away from an IND/CMH-type focus city because of the proximity of DTW. It's a four-ish hour drive from Indianapolis to Detroit and from Cleveland to Detroit. Why would DTW (or CVG) stop from DL from trying something at CLE? THe isses are to some degree UA's inertia and perhaps the Cleveland economy.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
avtcle
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:11 am

Here's what it seems to boil down to: United is committed to the hub and spoke network method. Anything that disrupts that makes sense to be eliminated. Currently, Cleveland is an anomaly in United's network. They don't operate PTP routes in any other cities. To maximize their strategy, it makes sense for them to end all PTP routes from Cleveland and add capacity to hubs. What they will certainly lose is their control of the market. United has held onto a solid 25% of the Cleveland market for the past 6 years. If all PTP routes go (CLE-LGA/DCA/MCO/CHS/TPA/FLL/RSW) United will likely lose thier hold on CLE.
 
ncflyer
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:21 am

CLE is so small in the scheme of things To UA I wonder how much UA cares about their market share. A vote of confidence would be putting new aircraft on LGA and DCA.
 
klwright69
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:13 pm

Ever since the merger, an end to all non hub CLE has been rumored. However, UA has clung to said routes the whole time surprising most everyone.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:52 pm

kavok wrote:
Hence the LGA drop, because they know the pax will reluctantly use EWR.
I don’t think UA actually thinks this, but if they do, they are delusional.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:41 pm

Appears the AA just dropped JFK-CLE. I wonder if UA will keep this route because of this.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
greenair727
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 pm

CLE-NYC is one of CLE's top city-pairs and EWR is not a real substitute for LGA if one's destination is the Manhattan or any of the outer boros except maybe Staten Island. Given this and a FF base on both ends of the route, CLE and NYC, there's no logical reason for UA to drop CLE-LGA. I'd say the rumors are unfounded or typical 'cleveland-bashing'.
 
avtcle
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:08 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Appears the AA just dropped JFK-CLE. I wonder if UA will keep this route because of this.


It’s scheduled to return at 2x daily in June. AA is using these aircraft elsewhere to help mitigate impact of MAX grounding. Every time AA pushes back the return of the MAX, they push back the return of CLE-JFK.
 
luckyone
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
kavok wrote:
I don’t like the negative posts either (and there are plenty), but the truth is CLE is in a challenging position. Regardless of what you think of the airport authority, they are not in an envious position. Much worse than most. CLE is basically an airport that should be a UA focus city, but isn’t because 1: UA doesn’t do focus cities, and 2: UA can continue to neglect CLE but still retain most of the business traffic because despite the cuts, UA remains the best option.

As far as strengthening AA/DL/UA or WN, there is no obvious path forward. In regards to AA, CLE is always going to lose out to PIT, given the historical USAir hub there. A similar story happens with DL, given the proximity to both DTW and CVG. WN seems to have doubled down at MDW and BWI, and CLE is not far enough away from either to warrant a focus city. Finally, UA realizes no one else will invest in CLE, so they don’t have to offer anything special to retain business pax. Hence the LGA drop, because they know the pax will reluctantly use EWR.


I don't buy the idea DL would somehow shy away from an IND/CMH-type focus city because of the proximity of DTW. It's a four-ish hour drive from Indianapolis to Detroit and from Cleveland to Detroit. Why would DTW (or CVG) stop from DL from trying something at CLE? THe isses are to some degree UA's inertia and perhaps the Cleveland economy.

I’m not here to hate on Cleveland. I just moved from there, and I left because I was offered a much better job elsewhere and dear god the property taxes in decent places to live in the Cleveland area are higher than your mortgage principle, which no matter how much your house costs effectively doubles your expenditure. I do not like Indy, but having said that, Indy and Columbus are growing. Cleveland is contracting. That alone is reason enough.
 
jplatts
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:28 pm

kavok wrote:
WN seems to have doubled down at MDW and BWI, and CLE is not far enough away from either to warrant a focus city.


While I do not expect WN to establish a focus city at CLE, there are a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN.
 
greenair727
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:38 pm

luckyone wrote:
I’m not here to hate on Cleveland. I just moved from there, and I left because I was offered a much better job elsewhere and dear god the property taxes in decent places to live in the Cleveland area are higher than your mortgage principle, which no matter how much your house costs effectively doubles your expenditure. I do not like Indy, but having said that, Indy and Columbus are growing. Cleveland is contracting. That alone is reason enough.


Cleveland is not contracting. Here is the change in MSA GDP from the year to year, per the US Gov't:

City 2014-2015 2015-2016 2016-2017 2017-2018
Cleveland MSA 1.50% 0.10% 1.10% 1.90%
Columbus, OH MSA 2.20 1.20 2.50 1.90
Indianapolis MSA -1.70 2.30 1.90 2.10

Note that when you include the missing two counties of the Cleveland economy (aka the Akron MSA), the Cleveland economy is significantly bigger than columbus, OH or Indianapolis, and at equal GDP growth--1.9%--Cleveland is growing even bigger than is Columbus, in real terms, though they are at the same rate. Moreso, look at the last two columns 2016 to 17 and 2017 to 2018: Columbus is slowing down and Cleveland is picking up.
 
luckyone
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:41 pm

greenair727 wrote:
[quote=luckyone]I’m not here to hate on Cleveland. I just moved from there, and I left because I was offered a much better job elsewhere and dear god the property taxes in decent places to live in the Cleveland area are higher than your mortgage principle, which no matter how much your house costs effectively doubles your expenditure. I do not like Indy, but having said that, Indy and Columbus are growing. Cleveland is contracting. That alone is reason enough.


Cleveland is not contracting. Here is the change in MSA GDP from the year to year, per the US Gov't:

City 2014-2015 2015-2016 2016-2017 2017-2018
Cleveland MSA 1.50% 0.10% 1.10% 1.90%
Columbus, OH MSA 2.20 1.20 2.50 1.90
Indianapolis MSA -1.70 2.30 1.90 2.10

Note that when you include the missing two counties of the Cleveland economy (aka the Akron MSA), the Cleveland economy is significantly bigger than columbus, OH or Indianapolis, and at equal GDP growth--1.9%--Cleveland is growing even bigger than is Columbus, in real terms, though they are at the same rate. Moreso, look at the last two columns 2016 to 17 and 2017 to 2018: Columbus is slowing down and Cleveland is picking up.[/quote]
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.
 
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jfklganyc
Topic Author
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:06 pm

The city of Cleveland itself is contracting rapidly

You guys play games with numbers on the site and leave out facts

1. Metro population is better than city population when discussing airport use

2. Healthy city centers are growing along with their Metro areas

“1980 573,822 −23.6%
1990 505,616 −11.9%
2000 478,403 −5.4%
2010 396,815 −17.1%” per wikipedia.com

That is not a sign of an economically healthy growing city

But that is really irrelevant to United dropping Cleveland LaGuardia

It is a holdover spoke from a hub that no longer exists. The product is old and uncompetitive
 
greenair727
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Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:08 pm

luckyone wrote:
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.


But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%
 
greenair727
Posts: 1394
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:16 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The city of Cleveland itself is contracting rapidly

You guys play games with numbers on the site and leave out facts

1. Metro population is better than city population when discussing airport use

2. Healthy city centers are growing along with their Metro areas

“1980 573,822 −23.6%
1990 505,616 −11.9%
2000 478,403 −5.4%
2010 396,815 −17.1%” per wikipedia.com

That is not a sign of an economically healthy growing city

But that is really irrelevant to United dropping Cleveland LaGuardia

It is a holdover spoke from a hub that no longer exists. The product is old and uncompetitive


Air service areas are far greater than central cities. Cleveland had lost population and jobs, but its now back in growth mode, in jobs, economic output, and population. Regarding "economically healthy", CLE's GDP growth was higher than NYC's at the last check. But to the topic at hand, I'm not saying UA hasn't made bad decisions in the past as we all know they have. I'm only saying they would be very foolish to drop CLE-LGA as many are not going to suddenly fly EWR-CLE instead, they will just jump on AA or DL at LGA.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1318
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:27 pm

What happens on LGA and DCA will be a tell for CLE and UA. UA's basically done nothing but drop routes gradually since the hub closed, and they've invested nothing to stay competitive with Delta's hard product to LGA, but at least on the positive side they added overall capacity in CLE in 2019, especially on CLE to Florida and higher percentage mainline to ORD and IAD. If LAX actually manages to stay triple daily this summer, as opposed to last summer, when it was originally scheduled and then reduced back down to double daily, that will be a great sign.

This is a great discussion on population, on negativity, comparisons to neighboring cities, etc., it probably belongs on the CLE thread somehow.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4303
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:53 pm

Trk1 wrote:
The Cleveland threads have become among most negative and nasty on the forum:
1. We now have a constant negative and personal comments about airport management. The posters always know more about route development and
attracting more flights then those on the job--in spite of massive airline and route additions in the last 6 years.

2. They are routing for airlines to drop routes from Cleveland for some personal vendetta.


3. Constant negative comments about the terminal when they know a new master plan is in the works

4. Never mention the actual excellent airfield operations that set Cleveland airport from most hails in the midwest

We can do better than this folks!!

There's not much of a point in getting upset with it because they don't have a source of fact, they're not asking if it's true. CLE was a CO hub not a United hub.
United closed their hub there Many years ago in favor of ORD. I do not for see UA closing CLE as a station as there is business to be done there.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 4514
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:14 am

greenair727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.


But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%


Not that this is at all relevant to CLE-LGA, but I am a bit confused as to why Akron is included with Cleveland considering it has its own full fledged airport.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
luckyone
Posts: 2914
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 am

greenair727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.


But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%

No one is arguing that Cleveland-Akron currently has more people than the other two. The point I was making is that the two mentioned cities of IND and CMH are growing, and at a fair clip. And Cleveland is not.
 
avtcle
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:39 am

Geez idk why this forum was created considering this was discussed in the CLE forum and United network forum but it’s just turned into an all out war on Cleveland. Idk what some here are following but Cleveland’s economic situation (which is nowhere near as bad as some suggest) is obviously not effecting air travel in CLE. 2019 traffic is projected 5% growth with over 10,000,000 passengers. More than CMH, PIT, IND, CVG.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1394
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:08 am

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.


But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%


Not that this is at all relevant to CLE-LGA, but I am a bit confused as to why Akron is included with Cleveland considering it has its own full fledged airport.


The Cleveland economy includes Akron--but since the government MSA numbers exclude it--I just added it in for accuracy. Regarding Akron having its own airport, Columbus has more than one airport as well with pax service. Most people in the Akron MSA probably use Hopkins MORE than they use CAK. But ultimately, its not relevant to the population of the area, which is all that was begin discussed here---population and rates of growth. For example, we shouldn't decrease the population size of Columbus because of Rickenbacker exists in addition to CMH. That would not make sense.

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