Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Jo8338
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:27 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:35 am

STT757 wrote:
Why would they transfer a LGA slots to an LCC, what would they get? If they were to transfer the LGA slots they would be to AA or B6. Since LGA slots are
More valuable than Kennedy slots they could do a two for one trade. 10 Kennedy slots for five LGA.

I think AA or B6 would take that, I wouldn’t trade with DL as their too competitive with UA in the NYC Market.

They’re already at 15 daily with LGA-ORD, with a couple frequencies with ERJ-175s. I don’t see additional frequencies there. LGA-IAH is daily and LGA-DEN is 7.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Agree, I could see B6 making that trade. They aren’t even using gate 1 at MAT so they have the capacity.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:40 am

UA won't just give up on the LGA-CLE market without a substitute and a viable one for the slots it uses at LGA for these flights, which average 5 per day. Unless UA plans to increase LGA-ORD, LGA-DEN, LGA-IAD, and LGA-IAH by allocating the LGA-CLE slots to those, I think it's fair to say this route will live on for now.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:16 am

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Apologies. I meant in terms of population.


But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%


Not that this is at all relevant to CLE-LGA, but I am a bit confused as to why Akron is included with Cleveland considering it has its own full fledged airport.

CLE people note that CAK is used by non-CLE a.netters to explain away perceived service shortages, but excluded from potential service enhancements
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:18 am

kavok wrote:
I don’t like the negative posts either (and there are plenty), but the truth is CLE is in a challenging position. Regardless of what you think of the airport authority, they are not in an envious position. Much worse than most. CLE is basically an airport that should be a UA focus city, but isn’t because 1: UA doesn’t do focus cities, and 2: UA can continue to neglect CLE but still retain most of the business traffic because despite the cuts, UA remains the best option.


avtcle wrote:
Here's what it seems to boil down to: United is committed to the hub and spoke network method. Anything that disrupts that makes sense to be eliminated. Currently, Cleveland is an anomaly in United's network. They don't operate PTP routes in any other cities. To maximize their strategy, it makes sense for them to end all PTP routes from Cleveland and add capacity to hubs. What they will certainly lose is their control of the market. United has held onto a solid 25% of the Cleveland market for the past 6 years. If all PTP routes go (CLE-LGA/DCA/MCO/CHS/TPA/FLL/RSW) United will likely lose thier hold on CLE.


CLE isn't just "some other market" for UA. It's a former hub city in which hundreds of millions of dollars was invested to develop a client base... and in which over a hundred million dollars is still owed in outstanding leases and contracts -- most of it sunk cost. UA most definitely attempted to make CLE a focus city, but the market became a battleground between UA, U/LCC, and legacy airlines such as DL. CLE experienced among the largest growth of any DL market in the 2010s, growing from 1,350 peak day seats in 2013 (the last year of CLE's hub; DL's number was actually less in the previous years) to 3,450 in 2019 -- phenomenal.

UA has yet to give up on CLE. UA's dropped similar flights (MSP-LAX, CVG-SFO, etc.) that appear to have been stronger performers, but has stuck with CLE. Given the explosive growth in competition - especially LCC - from CLE, it's more surprising that UA hasn't cut service. CVG, in comparison, has received very little growth from OAL. People in CLE are voting with their wallets, and it's not UA.

greenair727 wrote:
CLE-NYC is one of CLE's top city-pairs and EWR is not a real substitute for LGA if one's destination is the Manhattan or any of the outer boros except maybe Staten Island. Given this and a FF base on both ends of the route, CLE and NYC, there's no logical reason for UA to drop CLE-LGA. I'd say the rumors are unfounded or typical 'cleveland-bashing'.


That doesn't mean UA is making money in the market or can make more money with the slots elsewhere. DL went from having no service in 2012 to a peak of 6xCR9 today. Nor is LGA going to be that more convenient for everybody flying UA - many will be okay with EWR, and many won't.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:34 am

If this wasn't about NYC, the airport slots, and the 60-70% load factors they draw on usually smaller planes from nearly all larger midwestern markets, it wouldn't warrant it's own thread
Last edited by joeman on Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:37 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
joeman wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
With AA and DL service in the market, who cares? As UA's frequent flyer base in Cleveland melts away, UA's CLE schedule will become hubs-only...

The sooner the better... 6yrs after hub dismantling and reduction drama continues


You should care about reductions, since it'll yield less options and ultimately higher fares. And what "reduction drama?" Sure, UA cut a couple RJ flights, but they've added mainline service... just plane business (pardon the pun), not drama.

I care about reductions...drama? See above
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5350
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:26 am

greenair727 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:

But even on the population front, cleveland is still ahead. Yes, it had years of flat population growth, but its expected to be positive in 2020, from the last census of 2010-which was 10 yrs ago. Using estimates for 2018, yes Indianapolis and Columbus grew faster than Cleveland, but they are still much smaller than Cleveland. At the 2018 Estimate, Cleveland is almost 50% larger than Columbus:

City 2018 Estimate 2010 Census Change
Cleveland (full metro--CLE & Akron MSAs) 2,761,854 2,780,440 -0.67%
Indianapolis MSA 2,048,703 1,887,877 8.52%
Columbus, OH MSA 2,106,541 1,901,974 10.76%


Not that this is at all relevant to CLE-LGA, but I am a bit confused as to why Akron is included with Cleveland considering it has its own full fledged airport.


The Cleveland economy includes Akron--but since the government MSA numbers exclude it--I just added it in for accuracy. Regarding Akron having its own airport, Columbus has more than one airport as well with pax service. Most people in the Akron MSA probably use Hopkins MORE than they use CAK. But ultimately, its not relevant to the population of the area, which is all that was begin discussed here---population and rates of growth. For example, we shouldn't decrease the population size of Columbus because of Rickenbacker exists in addition to CMH. That would not make sense.


Not really trying to get into an argument on this since it isn't relevant to the thread and the CLE area is larger than either IND or CMH, just was wandering since you specifically mentioned MSA and I haven't seen any other airport include an entire metro with an airport with close to 1 million passengers into its MSA numbers. With CMH & LCK, both airports are actually in Columbus.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:58 am

Downtown Akron to cleveland airport is 40 minutes and rarely, rarely ever traffic to make it worse than that. CAK airport is tiny. The proof that CAK population counting is a no brainer is how CAK shrunk to oblivion when UA pulled out of CLE and the ULCCs moved in.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:12 am

joeman wrote:
I care about reductions...drama? See above


Sure, UA (possibly) ending CLE-LGA is more newsworthy than if DL were pondering ending CLE-BDL, because NYC is the 800 lb. gorilla in our news-cycle. It's no different than how Amazon pulling "HQ2" from NYC was bigger news than Foxconn reducing its plans in Wisconson, even though the latter is bigger news. It's just life. And if we can have a thread on every topic re: DFW that DFW fan boys can think of, then we can certainly have a new thread on someting like this.

I find it fascinating that UA has remained committed to a handful of non-hub routes from CLE and yet its largest critics remain quite bashful. Average fares to places like LGA, DCA, MCO and even LAX have been less-than-stellar; even if UA's making money on these routes, almost unquestionably the slots and/or planes could be used to make more money elsewhere. And yet UA has chosen to tough it out, remaining committed to the market. Give credit, where credit's due...

ncflyer wrote:
Downtown Akron to cleveland airport is 40 minutes and rarely, rarely ever traffic to make it worse than that. CAK airport is tiny. The proof that CAK population counting is a no brainer is how CAK shrunk to oblivion when UA pulled out of CLE and the ULCCs moved in.


There's no question CLE was leaking traffic to CAK - when FL was flourishing at CAK, Gordon Bethune was furious that the local community had turned its back on CLE / CO, reminding them that operating a hub wasn't cheap, and the community should be supporting it.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:54 pm

STT757 wrote:
Well it’s very likely that DCA-CLE will be gone soon, UA announced they’re increasing EWR-DCA from eight to thirteen daily flights. Those five additional slots will have to come from somewhere and I doubt it would be at the expense of ORD or IAH.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepointsg ... spurt/amp/

But what would they do with the LGA slots, more ORD, DEN and IAH?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



I don't think they will completely eliminate CLE from DCA. And implementation of the EWR shuttle seems to have been delayed by the MAX debacle. Still showing 8x in June rather than 13x.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:14 am

It’s official: UA is dropping both DCA and LGA but adding capacity to IAD and EWR, so there will be no net loss in seats:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14142
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:43 am

We , Anet community, knew as soon as they announced five additional nonstops between DCA and EWR where those five slots would come from. I don’t know why the article says that it will not.

Now we have to figure out what they’re doing with the five LGA slots?

Btw.. The additional DCA-EWR flights begin March 29.

10 x CR5
3 ERJ-175
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1613
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:46 am

STT757 wrote:
We , Anet community, knew as soon as they announced five additional nonstops between DCA and EWR where those five slots would come from. I don’t know why the article says that it will not.

Now we have to figure out what they’re doing with the five LGA slots?

Btw.. The additional DCA-EWR flights begin March 29.

10 x CR5
3 ERJ-175


The LGA slots are pretty valued, but only can be used on a few UA destinations that are inside the perimeter rule (especially because UA doesn't do focus cities too much) so UA must have some ideas. If it were AA or DL, they would certainly covet these more as they serve many destinations.

What increases will we see from AA or DL on LGA and AA on DCA?

Any news on what the "additional mainline capacity to IAD/EWR" is?
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1613
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:03 pm

For documentation purposes to see what the capacity changes are, here is the April 13 Monday schedule (LGA/DCA still showing available this AM):
CLE>EWR 8x === 5xERJ, 2x 73G, 1x 739 (need to replace 5x LGA on ERJ or 250 seats daily)
CLE>IAD 4x === 3x CR7, 1x 73G (need to replace 4x DCA on ERJ or 200 seats daily)
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14142
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:07 pm

Today UA has six daily flights EWR-CLE, in June I see eight daily.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jplatts
Posts: 3675
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:29 pm

fun2fly wrote:
The LGA slots are pretty valued, but only can be used on a few UA destinations that are inside the perimeter rule (especially because UA doesn't do focus cities too much) so UA must have some ideas. If it were AA or DL, they would certainly covet these more as they serve many destinations.


Here is the current breakdown of UA nonstop service out of LGA: 15x LGA-ORD, 5x LGA-CLE, 7x LGA-DEN, 8x LGA-IAH, 4x LGA-IAD

Here is the current breakdown of UA nonstop service to its other hubs out of EWR: 10x EWR-ORD, 8x EWR-DEN, 9x EWR-IAH, 8x EWR-LAX, 11x EWR-SFO, 7x EWR-IAD

UA can probably do without the slots that it currently uses on its LGA-CLE nonstop route due to
(a) UA being able to increase capacity on LGA-ORD/DEN/IAH/IAD by upgauging to larger planes,
(b) EWR being close enough to Manhattan to be a viable option for those traveling to NYC on UA,
(c) UA already having plenty of nonstop service to ORD, DEN, and IAH out of both LGA and EWR, and
(d) UA having an FF base in the NYC market who is willing to fly out of its EWR hub.

UA can probably use at least one of the slots that it currently uses on its LGA-CLE nonstop route on its LGA-IAD nonstop route since
(a) IAD currently only operates 4 daily nonstops out of LGA compared on UA whereas the other UA hubs within the LGA perimeter already have more nonstop service to IAD,
(b) there is some O&D traffic to LGA from the western portion of the DC metro area,
(c) there are some passengers connecting to LGA through IAD from domestic destinations that UA serves nonstop from IAD but not from EWR on UA.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Topic Author
Posts: 5988
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:46 pm

The LGA slots are a question because they really are at max capacity to their existing hubs out of LGA

Other than a one daily increase to IAD, they seem to have too many LGA slots and not enough hubs to fly them to

They can always start an odd ball P2P route, but it doesnt seem to fit the UA style of doing business

Also note that they only added 2 flights to EWR from CLE, so this is a net loss of flights in the market.

Also note that this gambit didnt work well when they left JFK and consolidated at EWR
They will lose the customer that found landing in NYC valuable (for whatever reason)
 
tphuang
Posts: 5305
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:07 pm

I remember a while back, ua had 3 flights to RDU from lga and cut that. Whatever happened to those slots?
 
Trk1
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:58 pm

3/29 schedules out of Cle/LGA/EWR will be posted tonight. You will be able to see the equipment changes at Cle and the new spost for the LGA slots
 
twaconnie
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:00 pm

UA has a long history flying CLE- LGA going back to the 1940's sorry see it go, just proves everything changes.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:10 pm

At least as of yesterday, UA hadn't taken the flights out of their system, so it's premature to draw conclusions about UA's real plans for EWR and DCA. And many of you are comparing UA's capacity this summer to now (which is completely irrelevant) rather than to summer 2019. Right now CLE-IAD is merely on 3 CRJ-200's, that's way less than what they were doing last summer. CLE seems to have a more pronounced January lull than other airports. . . .
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:03 pm

twaconnie wrote:
UA has a long history flying CLE- LGA going back to the 1940's sorry see it go, just proves everything changes.


Well, except for that 20-some year hiatus the last time UA left. It will be most interesting to see what AA does. At a minimum they should probably add one flight to each route. Maybe then they'll want CLE-LAX back.
 
NJHoboken
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 1:21 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:04 pm

I work in NYC for a large bank that has its HQ in Cleveland. As a matter of fact, our former CEO was the Chairman of the Board of Continental (and pro forma United, for a time). I can tell you that despite the relative proximity of EWR, is still a little more convenient to midtown in the early AM. I’ve been on AM flights where my colleagues comprise almost 50% of the plane.
 
umichman
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:01 pm

STT757 wrote:
Today UA has six daily flights EWR-CLE, in June I see eight daily.


They said they will be using larger jets, so additional capacity will likely not involve much additional frequency. At any rate, they have yet to pull the CLE-LGA/DCA flights from the schedule so it's quite likely additional capacity to EWR/IAD had not been loaded yet as well. I would check things after this weekend and see what aircraft they will be using on these routes in the summer. The current 5 daily ERJ-135/145 50-seater flights on CLE-EWR will likely get upgrades to larger aircraft.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:18 pm

masseybrown wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
UA has a long history flying CLE- LGA going back to the 1940's sorry see it go, just proves everything changes.


Well, except for that 20-some year hiatus the last time UA left. It will be most interesting to see what AA does. At a minimum they should probably add one flight to each route. Maybe then they'll want CLE-LAX back.


I don't recall UA ever leaving the route can you explain when the 20 year hiatus was.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:14 am

twaconnie wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
UA has a long history flying CLE- LGA going back to the 1940's sorry see it go, just proves everything changes.


Well, except for that 20-some year hiatus the last time UA left. It will be most interesting to see what AA does. At a minimum they should probably add one flight to each route. Maybe then they'll want CLE-LAX back.


I don't recall UA ever leaving the route can you explain when the 20 year hiatus was.


From the time UA closed their hub the first time in the mid-80s until they merged with CO in 2009 - twenty-some years of no service.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:37 am

masseybrown wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
masseybrown wrote:

Well, except for that 20-some year hiatus the last time UA left. It will be most interesting to see what AA does. At a minimum they should probably add one flight to each route. Maybe then they'll want CLE-LAX back.


I don't recall UA ever leaving the route can you explain when the 20 year hiatus was.


From the time UA closed their hub the first time in the mid-80s until they merged with CO in 2009 - twenty-some years of no service.


Thanks.I forgot all about the merger.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:42 pm

ncflyer wrote:
What happens on LGA and DCA will be a tell for CLE and UA. UA's basically done nothing but drop routes gradually since the hub closed, and they've invested nothing to stay competitive with Delta's hard product to LGA, but at least on the positive side they added overall capacity in CLE in 2019, especially on CLE to Florida and higher percentage mainline to ORD and IAD. If LAX actually manages to stay triple daily this summer, as opposed to last summer, when it was originally scheduled and then reduced back down to double daily, that will be a great sign.

This is a great discussion on population, on negativity, comparisons to neighboring cities, etc., it probably belongs on the CLE thread somehow.


Some of these comments aren't really accurate. UA decided in 2014 it was going to close the CLE hub. It had fixed costs there associated with the D Concourse that was closed and it still is paying for it. CLE is between ORD and EWR geographically, and stretching back to the CO days, CLE was not all that profitable to begin with. It was generally a hassle free connector thanks to the C Concourse (and D later) and served a purpose in the original CO network but the writing was on the wall for CLE as soon as UA and CO merged.

As for comparisons to DL at LGA, that's kind of pointless. LGA is a hub station for DL. It is not one for UA. United operates ORD, IAH, DEN, IAD out of LGA to feed traffic to its hubs. It is actually operating from the newest concourse in the unfolding rebuild of LGA. As for CLE-Florida and CLE-LAX, there is money to be made there and UA maintains the service, but the CLE economy isn't AUS or RDU, so it will likely stay as it is for UA, with an eventual pull down to just the hubs and seasonal service to some key Florida markets. It is heading in that direction and that's what the DCA and LGA cuts show.

Still, what is to happen with UA's LGA slots used for CLE?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:13 pm

twaconnie wrote:
Thanks.I forgot all about the merger.


Everyone would like to. :smile:
 
avtcle
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:28 pm

ncflyer wrote:
If LAX actually manages to stay triple daily this summer, as opposed to last summer, when it was originally scheduled and then reduced back down to double daily, that will be a great sign.


CLE-LAX was reduced last summer because of the MAX grounding. Not because there wasn’t enough demand. Load from May-August was 96%.

CLE-LAX, CLE-Florida routes make money, so it makes sense for them to expand. CLE-LGA/DCA were a long time coming.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:59 pm

avtcle wrote:
Good. Their product is horrible. (5 daily E145s). They’re competing with AA E175s and DL CRJ9s, both of which have a premium product. They’ll be handing a reliable, lucrative route over to DL and AA, both of which operate better planes on the route anyway!

United did say not too long ago that Cleveland’s future with the airline would only be “flying to and from a hub”

Sounds like a perfect run for the 550. But there are likely so many other, higher yielding possibilities for those slots.
 
FourCHZ
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:22 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:09 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
What happens on LGA and DCA will be a tell for CLE and UA. UA's basically done nothing but drop routes gradually since the hub closed, and they've invested nothing to stay competitive with Delta's hard product to LGA, but at least on the positive side they added overall capacity in CLE in 2019, especially on CLE to Florida and higher percentage mainline to ORD and IAD. If LAX actually manages to stay triple daily this summer, as opposed to last summer, when it was originally scheduled and then reduced back down to double daily, that will be a great sign.

This is a great discussion on population, on negativity, comparisons to neighboring cities, etc., it probably belongs on the CLE thread somehow.


Some of these comments aren't really accurate. UA decided in 2014 it was going to close the CLE hub. It had fixed costs there associated with the D Concourse that was closed and it still is paying for it. CLE is between ORD and EWR geographically, and stretching back to the CO days, CLE was not all that profitable to begin with. It was generally a hassle free connector thanks to the C Concourse (and D later) and served a purpose in the original CO network but the writing was on the wall for CLE as soon as UA and CO merged.

As for comparisons to DL at LGA, that's kind of pointless. LGA is a hub station for DL. It is not one for UA. United operates ORD, IAH, DEN, IAD out of LGA to feed traffic to its hubs. It is actually operating from the newest concourse in the unfolding rebuild of LGA. As for CLE-Florida and CLE-LAX, there is money to be made there and UA maintains the service, but the CLE economy isn't AUS or RDU, so it will likely stay as it is for UA, with an eventual pull down to just the hubs and seasonal service to some key Florida markets. It is heading in that direction and that's what the DCA and LGA cuts show.

Still, what is to happen with UA's LGA slots used for CLE?

How about 5 daily LGA-DCA flights.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3675
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:57 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Still, what is to happen with UA's LGA slots used for CLE?


UA could transfer the slots it currently uses on LGA-CLE to another airline since
(a) UA already has plenty of nonstop service to its ORD, DEN, and IAH hubs from both LGA and EWR,
(b) UA would still be able to increase capacity on LGA-ORD/DEN/IAH/IAD by upgauging to larger aircraft if UA transfers a few of its LGA slots to another airline,
and
(c) there are some travelers in the NYC market who are willing to fly nonstop out of EWR on UA instead of flying out of LGA and connecting through an UA hub.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:10 pm

avtcle wrote:
CLE-LAX was reduced last summer because of the MAX grounding. Not because there wasn’t enough demand. Load from May-August was 96%.

CLE-LAX, CLE-Florida routes make money, so it makes sense for them to expand. CLE-LGA/DCA were a long time coming.


Have you seen the average fares on CLE-LAX? I doubt anybody is making money on the route, although nobody has blinked yet. Heck, when I was looking at the route earlier in the week, UA had a few days in July that were selling for OW$44. No wonder the LF is 96%! It's pretty clear that UA's remaining (non-hub) CLE service has been under-performing for awhile (at the very least, key assets could be used elsewhere to more money) yet their commitment to the market speaks volumes. If (and really, when) UA fully transitions CLE to a spoke, it's because people traveling from CLE voted against UA with their wallets, not because of some giant conspiracy that a.net's been touting for nearly twenty years (beginning with the perceived lack of commitment by CO, which is detailed heavily in the Wikipedia archives -- mostly authored by persons participating in this very thread).

Cointrin330 wrote:
Some of these comments aren't really accurate. UA decided in 2014 it was going to close the CLE hub. It had fixed costs there associated with the D Concourse that was closed and it still is paying for it. CLE is between ORD and EWR geographically, and stretching back to the CO days, CLE was not all that profitable to begin with. It was generally a hassle free connector thanks to the C Concourse (and D later) and served a purpose in the original CO network but the writing was on the wall for CLE as soon as UA and CO merged.


CLE wasn't profitable, it was a money-losing hub. UA agreed to open its books to an audit team of CLE's choosing, and the Cleveland-based audit team (comprised of individuals working and living within the Cleveland area, and independent of United) issued an opinion agreeing with UA's conclusions. Yet, for whatever reason, the conspiracy theories continue...
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:05 pm

I don’t see any increase in hub to LGA flying loaded so far. I compared 3/23 to 3/30 (both Monday’s) and while I see CLE-LGA going away there are no other additions so far. Makes me wonder if they’ll lease the slots out. Maybe AC?
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:20 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
avtcle wrote:
CLE-LAX was reduced last summer because of the MAX grounding. Not because there wasn’t enough demand. Load from May-August was 96%.

CLE-LAX, CLE-Florida routes make money, so it makes sense for them to expand. CLE-LGA/DCA were a long time coming.


Have you seen the average fares on CLE-LAX? I doubt anybody is making money on the route, although nobody has blinked yet. Heck, when I was looking at the route earlier in the week, UA had a few days in July that were selling for OW$44.....


Dang, I missed the CLE-LAX "OW$44" UA fare cause they sure as hell aren't selling for that now that I can find. I can find days where I can fly UA nonstop cheaper for a roundtrip BOS-LAX
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:08 am

joeman wrote:
Dang, I missed the CLE-LAX "OW$44" UA fare cause they sure as hell aren't selling for that now that I can find. I can find days where I can fly UA nonstop cheaper for a roundtrip BOS-LAX


Poor you, guess you'll have to settle for one of those OW$49 fares currently available through the spring (or, alternatively, buy one of the sub-$60 fares on AA or WN. Of course, NK's lowest fares are always published during the week - and not on weekends - so if you keep your eyes open, similar fares will appear again (since that's who they're matching).
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:04 am

FourCHZ wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
What happens on LGA and DCA will be a tell for CLE and UA. UA's basically done nothing but drop routes gradually since the hub closed, and they've invested nothing to stay competitive with Delta's hard product to LGA, but at least on the positive side they added overall capacity in CLE in 2019, especially on CLE to Florida and higher percentage mainline to ORD and IAD. If LAX actually manages to stay triple daily this summer, as opposed to last summer, when it was originally scheduled and then reduced back down to double daily, that will be a great sign.

This is a great discussion on population, on negativity, comparisons to neighboring cities, etc., it probably belongs on the CLE thread somehow.


Some of these comments aren't really accurate. UA decided in 2014 it was going to close the CLE hub. It had fixed costs there associated with the D Concourse that was closed and it still is paying for it. CLE is between ORD and EWR geographically, and stretching back to the CO days, CLE was not all that profitable to begin with. It was generally a hassle free connector thanks to the C Concourse (and D later) and served a purpose in the original CO network but the writing was on the wall for CLE as soon as UA and CO merged.

As for comparisons to DL at LGA, that's kind of pointless. LGA is a hub station for DL. It is not one for UA. United operates ORD, IAH, DEN, IAD out of LGA to feed traffic to its hubs. It is actually operating from the newest concourse in the unfolding rebuild of LGA. As for CLE-Florida and CLE-LAX, there is money to be made there and UA maintains the service, but the CLE economy isn't AUS or RDU, so it will likely stay as it is for UA, with an eventual pull down to just the hubs and seasonal service to some key Florida markets. It is heading in that direction and that's what the DCA and LGA cuts show.

Still, what is to happen with UA's LGA slots used for CLE?

How about 5 daily LGA-DCA flights.


Why bother? DL and AA serve it, with much higher frequency than just 5 per day. At 5 x per day at peak days, UA simply would not be competitive.
 
avtcle
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:23 am

I have never seen a one-way fare on United as low as $44 on CLE-LAX.... and I analyze the schedule often.

In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fare that low on any United route out of Cleveland. Next time you see it, I’d sure like you to share it with me^^

United competes HEAVILY with low cost carriers on CLE-MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA, and the lowest fare I’ve ever seen for any of those routes was $71 basic economy, which gets you nothing except a ticket.

one-way fares from CLE-LAX in the spring don’t go lower than $180, while averaging closer to $250!

Airlines don’t fly routes for fun. If CLE-LAX wasn’t making money, it’d be gone. Just like CLE-LGA/DCA.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:38 am

avtcle wrote:
I have never seen a one-way fare on United as low as $44 on CLE-LAX.... and I analyze the schedule often.

In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fare that low on any United route out of Cleveland. Next time you see it, I’d sure like you to share it with me^^

United competes HEAVILY with low cost carriers on CLE-MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA, and the lowest fare I’ve ever seen for any of those routes was $71 basic economy, which gets you nothing except a ticket.

one-way fares from CLE-LAX in the spring don’t go lower than $180, while averaging closer to $250!

Airlines don’t fly routes for fun. If CLE-LAX wasn’t making money, it’d be gone. Just like CLE-LGA/DCA.

I don't see any $44 dollar fares but UA is offering CLE-LAX for $49 on 3/3 (NK is $67).
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:44 am

joeman wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
avtcle wrote:
CLE-LAX was reduced last summer because of the MAX grounding. Not because there wasn’t enough demand. Load from May-August was 96%.

CLE-LAX, CLE-Florida routes make money, so it makes sense for them to expand. CLE-LGA/DCA were a long time coming.


Have you seen the average fares on CLE-LAX? I doubt anybody is making money on the route, although nobody has blinked yet. Heck, when I was looking at the route earlier in the week, UA had a few days in July that were selling for OW$44.....


Dang, I missed the CLE-LAX "OW$44" UA fare cause they sure as hell aren't selling for that now that I can find. I can find days where I can fly UA nonstop cheaper for a roundtrip BOS-LAX



I agree. I just paid 250 each way in regular coach to go to CLE. Had never been to that city, but can see why UA is cutting back. The economy there seems awful. I hope CLE can replace UA with some low fare carriers!
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:59 am

avtcle wrote:
I have never seen a one-way fare on United as low as $44 on CLE-LAX.... and I analyze the schedule often.

In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fare that low on any United route out of Cleveland. Next time you see it, I’d sure like you to share it with me^^

United competes HEAVILY with low cost carriers on CLE-MCO/FLL/RSW/TPA, and the lowest fare I’ve ever seen for any of those routes was $71 basic economy, which gets you nothing except a ticket.

one-way fares from CLE-LAX in the spring don’t go lower than $180, while averaging closer to $250!

Airlines don’t fly routes for fun. If CLE-LAX wasn’t making money, it’d be gone. Just like CLE-LGA/DCA.


UA currently has a handful of dates available for sale at $49 -- take another look. They had greater availability at $44, including select dates during the summer, earlier in the week. As I mentioned, NK publishes its lowest fares during the work week, and hikes them up on weekends; most other airlines have followed suit.

And don't be silly -- there are oodles of routes that operate at a loss for length periods of time, for one reason or another. For example, legacy airlines lower their fares to fend off the LCC, hoping the market will return to normalcy, which we're seeing on CLE-LAX.
 
umichman
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:12 am

Aliqiout wrote:
I don't see any $44 dollar fares but UA is offering CLE-LAX for $49 on 3/3 (NK is $67).


I'm seeing NK for $58 on 3/3 and NK fares on other dates for as low as $40 one-way. Pretty crazy cheap for that stage length. NK's lowest fares on DTW-LAX are $87.
 
avtcle
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:17 am

I don’t really think anything going on here has anything to do with CLE LGA. If everyone wants to go make a “let’s see what routes from Cleveland aren’t profitable” forum, go for it.
 
joeman
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:39 am

avtcle wrote:
I don’t really think anything going on here has anything to do with CLE LGA. If everyone wants to go make a “let’s see what routes from Cleveland aren’t profitable” forum, go for it.

I agree but at least we know now :

WidebodyPTV wrote:
-- there are oodles of routes that operate at a loss for length periods of time, for one reason or another.
 
N649DL
Posts: 987
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:13 am

avtcle wrote:
Good. Their product is horrible. (5 daily E145s). They’re competing with AA E175s and DL CRJ9s, both of which have a premium product. They’ll be handing a reliable, lucrative route over to DL and AA, both of which operate better planes on the route anyway!

United did say not too long ago that Cleveland’s future with the airline would only be “flying to and from a hub”


Which is a shame considering the retention rate of the CLE hub was near captive. Smisek threw it away due to costs he didn’t want to deal with (he threw CLE under the bus). During the merger ops quite a few CLE routes got upgraded to sUA 757 metal (EG: LAX / MCO) and got canned completely for no reason. He was a true piece of trash as CLE for UA could have functioned like a DL RDU focus city but by that point Oscar and Kirby lost control. Too little too late I suppose.

E145s to LGA on UA from CLE? Weren’t they 737 or even 757 at one point? Cleveland was price captive like DL at SLC for a small city. Damn shame, no wonder they are trailing to DL no matter what they do.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:41 am

N649DL wrote:
Which is a shame considering the retention rate of the CLE hub was near captive. Smisek threw it away due to costs he didn’t want to deal with (he threw CLE under the bus). During the merger ops quite a few CLE routes got upgraded to sUA 757 metal (EG: LAX / MCO) and got canned completely for no reason. He was a true piece of trash as CLE for UA could have functioned like a DL RDU focus city but by that point Oscar and Kirby lost control. Too little too late I suppose.

E145s to LGA on UA from CLE? Weren’t they 737 or even 757 at one point? Cleveland was price captive like DL at SLC for a small city. Damn shame, no wonder they are trailing to DL no matter what they do.


CLE was a money losing hub. Per its agreement with UA, Cleveland hired a local accounting firm of its choosing, staffed with people who live and work in the Cleveland area, and the firm affirmed that CLE was a money-losing hub for UA. Some people, including several posters within this thread who've long been vocal about CO's lack of commitment to CLE, then later UA (just review the CLE Wikipedia page as it appeared in the 2000s), and simply cannot accept that the hub wasn't successful.

UA most definitely did attempt to make CLE a focus city, but the airport saw a surge in service -- since 2013, DL alone has grown to peak week capacity that is equal to nearly 20% of the physical capacity UA/CO had in the hub's later years. People voted against UA with their wallets. Several posters within this thread has been very candid that they will never fly UA again. And FWIW, the managers and executive staff who made the decision to pull the plug on CLE (it's really silly to think that a CEO alone would do that) are largely still with UA. Some of you really need to spend more time researching how decision making works within large corporations...

If CLE-LGA/DCA were making a lot of money for UA, the routes would be continuing indefinitely.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:32 pm

[twoid]g[/twoid]
WidebodyPTV wrote:
N649DL wrote:
If CLE-LGA/DCA were making a lot of money for UA, the routes would be continuing indefinitely.


That’s not true, not if UA feels they can make even more money using constrained resources elsewhere.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2712
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Well, CLE-DCA and CLE-LGA were not complete losers. They stuck around longer than most people had anticipated I think.
Maybe it's a case of allocating resources for better utilization.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: UA CLE LGA?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:28 pm

SFOtoORD wrote:
I don’t see any increase in hub to LGA flying loaded so far. I compared 3/23 to 3/30 (both Monday’s) and while I see CLE-LGA going away there are no other additions so far. Makes me wonder if they’ll lease the slots out. Maybe AC?


AC? What could they possibly use the slots for? This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of the perimeter rule I feel airlines should be free to about the country as they see fit. UA could use slots for some west coast trips,problem solved. It's called deregulation. .

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos