mcdu
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Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:01 pm

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/01/10/southwest-airlines-faces-392-million-fine-from-faa-for-miscalculating-weights/

Southwest is accused of placing the wrong basic empty weight of aircraft in their computer system. This had the aircraft operating at inaccurate weights.

Would be really bad if the weight was reported as lower than actual and the crew was flying at the Max FMC altitude. Would imagine this would have serious affects on fuel burn numbers also. Heavier would burn more and thus leave you with less alternate or contingency fuel.
 
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enilria
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:06 pm

As a general rule, planes get heavier not lighter from the factory delivery spec as they age. So, unlikely they were weighed “high”. Almost certain they were shown low in the system.
 
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enilria
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:08 pm

Also, if the weight were too high in the system I doubt the FAA would care as that would increase the safety margin, not reduce it.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:11 pm

mcdu wrote:
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/01/10/southwest-airlines-faces-392-million-fine-from-faa-for-miscalculating-weights/

Southwest is accused of placing the wrong basic empty weight of aircraft in their computer system. This had the aircraft operating at inaccurate weights.

Would be really bad if the weight was reported as lower than actual and the crew was flying at the Max FMC altitude. Would imagine this would have serious affects on fuel burn numbers also. Heavier would burn more and thus leave you with less alternate or contingency fuel.


Much more dangerous is underestimating weight for the purposes of calculating takeoff performance.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:11 pm

enilria wrote:
Also, if the weight were too high in the system I doubt the FAA would care as that would increase the safety margin, not reduce it.


That is the one of the worst defense arguments I’ve ever heard
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:15 pm

This is a really big deal as I'm sure everyone knows. It's especially disturbing that the article says some FAA inspectors were in cahoots with WN and were 'reassigned' by the FAA. We've heard this same song before...WN trying to manipulate FAA inspections.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:40 pm

Now it's not a surprise how Southwest ranks low in safety among major carriers.
 
COEWRMSY
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:48 pm

The linked article mentions inaccuracies with 44 planes. I wonder if it has to do with the 73Gs acquired in the AirTran merger having a different weight than the legacy WN 73Gs. IIRC, FL had something like 50 73Gs.
 
kabq737
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:54 pm

I must say I find this one very interesting.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe WN just had new inspectors from the FAA assigned to it. That certainly makes one wonder how long this was overlooked by the previous inspectors. Interesting stuff.
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
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Q
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:23 pm

A few years ago, that's what happens to Royal Air Maroc 737-700 was having a hard time to lift air up off runway in Frankfurt from someone video at 737 rolling taking off bouncing two times then enough airspeed to lift. Pilots may get the wrong configuration weight takeoff speed. It happens very rarely. EDIT: I found it. Look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kle80KB_s3I


Q
 
Dominion301
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:30 pm

Q wrote:
A few years ago, that's what happens to Royal Air Maroc 737-700 was having a hard time to lift air up off runway in Frankfurt from someone video at 737 rolling taking off bouncing two times then enough airspeed to lift. Pilots may get the wrong configuration weight takeoff speed. It happens very rarely. EDIT: I found it. Look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kle80KB_s3I


Q


You mean the Air Algérie 737?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kle80KB_s3I
 
Q
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:55 pm

Dominion look again atvideo again it's Royal Air Maroc title on plane clearly not Air Algerie.

Q
 
nagpaw
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:03 pm

Does anyone know how far off the BOWs were?
 
SRT75
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:13 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
This is a really big deal as I'm sure everyone knows. It's especially disturbing that the article says some FAA inspectors were in cahoots with WN and were 'reassigned' by the FAA. We've heard this same song before...WN trying to manipulate FAA inspections.


I respectfully disagree that this "is a really big deal." Operational aircraft weight is estimates on estimates on estimates. And 737s are pretty robust machines that are not operated "on the envelope," so to speak. Yes, very bad practice to miscalculate weights, but very unlikely to have presented a serious safety risk.
 
ethernal
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:22 pm

SRT75 wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
This is a really big deal as I'm sure everyone knows. It's especially disturbing that the article says some FAA inspectors were in cahoots with WN and were 'reassigned' by the FAA. We've heard this same song before...WN trying to manipulate FAA inspections.


I respectfully disagree that this "is a really big deal." Operational aircraft weight is estimates on estimates on estimates. And 737s are pretty robust machines that are not operated "on the envelope," so to speak. Yes, very bad practice to miscalculate weights, but very unlikely to have presented a serious safety risk.


On the flip side, the estimate on estimate on estimate is enabled by certain assumed safety margins in all of those calculations - including the base weight.

Of course, it all depends on exactly how much the variance is. Presumably it is non-trivial. Agree that it is unlikely to have posed a significant safety risk, but of course, this is where the swiss cheese model comes into play. You never know when things line up and create a problem unexpectedly even though this particular issue seems innocent enough on its own.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:46 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
This is a really big deal as I'm sure everyone knows. It's especially disturbing that the article says some FAA inspectors were in cahoots with WN and were 'reassigned' by the FAA. We've heard this same song before...WN trying to manipulate FAA inspections.

It would seem there is a positive consequence of the FAA "manipulations" that were fully exposed following the 737 MAX debacle: there is a big shake-up at the FAA and those "gentlemen agreements" are being ended.
I think we might see more of those "revelations" in the next few months.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:17 pm

Q wrote:
Dominion look again atvideo again it's Royal Air Maroc title on plane clearly not Air Algerie.

Q


LOL yup. I found it typing Air Algérie. :melting:
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:35 pm

Well considering their ramp agents were counting bags one by one, and by memory, they were bound for some issues. They’ve got scanners now that keep track of everything now.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
barney captain
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:04 pm

MCDU - right on cue. :roll:

A proposed fine is not a fine - and will likely get reduced or eliminated once WN responds.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
weezydrvr
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:12 pm

barney captain wrote:
MCDU - right on cue. :roll:

A proposed fine is not a fine - and will likely get reduced or eliminated once WN responds.


I mean does he/she post anything other than ‘articles’ detrimental to WN??
 
weezydrvr
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:23 pm

And for the people saying how unsafe Southwest is now because a plane’s BOW was 84595 vs 84600, you REALLY need to freshen up on how pax/std bags are accounted for with respect to weight on commercial airplanes (hint - not every male passenger with their carryon bags really weighs 206 lb in the summer and 212 lb in the winter) ...
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:37 pm

Ok, so let me join in the FAA bash fest.
Each Boeing 737 that WN operates can carry in excess of 100 souls, this grave breaking of the FAA rules was so dangerous to the travelling public that rather than fining WN some value that will hurt them to ensure that they do not endanger pax lives going forward they instead choose just a measly 3.92 million, and this is only the initial amount not what they are going to agree to levy after consultation with said WN?

Say it ain't so....
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:09 pm

weezydrvr wrote:
And for the people saying how unsafe Southwest is now because a plane’s BOW was 84595 vs 84600, you REALLY need to freshen up on how pax/std bags are accounted for with respect to weight on commercial airplanes (hint - not every male passenger with their carryon bags really weighs 206 lb in the summer and 212 lb in the winter) ...


You're rationalizing a diversion from prescribed procedure. Don't. Flying is a process/procedure business.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:16 pm

Here’s the deal, these weights might only be 200 pounds off or they could be 1000 pounds off. The plane isn’t going to crash I don’t see it as a major safety issue unless they are 10s of thousands of pounds off.

With that said, it’s not that hard to get it right you weight the aircraft and record the number. Southwest record keeping seems to be very poor. Most of their fines, which seem to be announced with regularity, are due to bad records. I wonder if the “we’ll do it like we always have to save costs” mentality is causing this.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:42 pm

The FAA has been scrutinizing weight in the past year. The culmination is revised passenger weights, which will increase the assumed weight of every passenger. Last time weight calculations changed in 2003, it resulted in more unplanned fuel stops. Southwest isn’t the only one getting scrutinized.
 
nagpaw
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:00 pm

I got a reply from my "person in the know." The weight errors involved were all less than 1,000 pounds. Considering that on the 737-700 each one thousand pounds aircraft weight changes your average takeoff and landing v-speeds by about one knot IAS or less, the maximum altitude capability by less than 1,000 feet, and the average fuel burn by about thirty pounds per hour, this is hardly a safety-of-flight issue. While this incident does speak to SWA's record keeping and its IT department, it's merely a costly clerical error.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:19 pm

nagpaw wrote:
I got a reply from my "person in the know." The weight errors involved were all less than 1,000 pounds. Considering that on the 737-700 each one thousand pounds aircraft weight changes your average takeoff and landing v-speeds by about one knot IAS or less, the maximum altitude capability by less than 1,000 feet, and the average fuel burn by about thirty pounds per hour, this is hardly a safety-of-flight issue. While this incident does speak to SWA's record keeping and its IT department, it's merely a costly clerical error.


That’s a great story. But do you have anything official. If you don’t then it’s highly suspect. You can understand that anyone from WN would want to make this look like it was no big deal. Yet the FAA says its 3.9 million worth of violations.
 
txjim
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:21 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Now it's not a surprise how Southwest ranks low in safety among major carriers.

Cite?
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:27 pm

mcdu wrote:
nagpaw wrote:
I got a reply from my "person in the know." The weight errors involved were all less than 1,000 pounds. Considering that on the 737-700 each one thousand pounds aircraft weight changes your average takeoff and landing v-speeds by about one knot IAS or less, the maximum altitude capability by less than 1,000 feet, and the average fuel burn by about thirty pounds per hour, this is hardly a safety-of-flight issue. While this incident does speak to SWA's record keeping and its IT department, it's merely a costly clerical error.


That’s a great story. But do you have anything official. If you don’t then it’s highly suspect. You can understand that anyone from WN would want to make this look like it was no big deal. Yet the FAA says its 3.9 million worth of violations.


Are you really playing the bias card?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:34 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
I wonder if the “we’ll do it like we always have to save costs” mentality is causing this.

I am thinking that this is maybe the first time on this site that someone says that a highly unionized work force is all about saving cost.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:46 pm

txjim wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Now it's not a surprise how Southwest ranks low in safety among major carriers.

Cite?


https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/

3 stars out of 7.

Even Air Koryo ranks higher at 6 stars.
Last edited by Ziyulu on Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:47 pm

par13del wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I wonder if the “we’ll do it like we always have to save costs” mentality is causing this.

I am thinking that this is maybe the first time on this site that someone says that a highly unionized work force is all about saving cost.


What in the world does a Union have anything to with this?
 
weezydrvr
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
weezydrvr wrote:
And for the people saying how unsafe Southwest is now because a plane’s BOW was 84595 vs 84600, you REALLY need to freshen up on how pax/std bags are accounted for with respect to weight on commercial airplanes (hint - not every male passenger with their carryon bags really weighs 206 lb in the summer and 212 lb in the winter) ...


You're rationalizing a diversion from prescribed procedure. Don't. Flying is a process/procedure business.


I’m not rationalizing anything. There’s a good chance these 40 or so airplanes are also the same ones that have been picked up on lease the last few years and have been through a few paperwork issues. I’m not saying WN wasn’t in the wrong, because no matter what (or who you use to make sure ALL the paperwork is in order before bringing a new lease on property) the buck stops with them. That being said, this wasn’t done intentionally and people dramatizing this and saying that a few 100 lb errors on a plane’s BOW is paramount to a serious safety issue for WN when planes fly around all day not within 1000 lbs of their actual weight (either way) is just silly and unfortunately typical for this website, especially from people with little to no 121 experience. And please don’t lecture me on flying and how it works ... I have plenty of experience in that department.
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:36 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
par13del wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I wonder if the “we’ll do it like we always have to save costs” mentality is causing this.

I am thinking that this is maybe the first time on this site that someone says that a highly unionized work force is all about saving cost.


What in the world does a Union have anything to with this?

WN is a highly unionized company, such companies are never usually associated with the mentality you mention.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:52 pm

par13del wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
par13del wrote:
I am thinking that this is maybe the first time on this site that someone says that a highly unionized work force is all about saving cost.


What in the world does a Union have anything to with this?

WN is a highly unionized company, such companies are never usually associated with the mentality you mention.


The union means nothing. If Southwest management wants you to hand count bags on the ramp you will. The union has no say I that......I do t have a clue where you are going with this.

If managements record keeping is the same system they have had for decades because they don’t want to upgrade it then that’s what’s the Employees will use
 
nagpaw
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:12 am

mcdu wrote:
nagpaw wrote:
I got a reply from my "person in the know." The weight errors involved were all less than 1,000 pounds. Considering that on the 737-700 each one thousand pounds aircraft weight changes your average takeoff and landing v-speeds by about one knot IAS or less, the maximum altitude capability by less than 1,000 feet, and the average fuel burn by about thirty pounds per hour, this is hardly a safety-of-flight issue. While this incident does speak to SWA's record keeping and its IT department, it's merely a costly clerical error.


That’s a great story. But do you have anything official. If you don’t then it’s highly suspect. You can understand that anyone from WN would want to make this look like it was no big deal. Yet the FAA says its 3.9 million worth of violations.


You should know about company policies regarding social media, so, no, I can't give you anything official. You'll just have to trust. And I'm in no way downplaying the severity of the error. I am saying that people are concerned that this is a deadly safety of flight issue (which it isn't) and generally glossing over the underlying organizational issues (which is bad).

Seriously, were you passed over by SWA for an interview at some point? I can't stand UAL, but you don't see me endlessly bashing them. In fact, I quite often support them in the face of outlandish and sensationalized media reports.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:26 am

kabq737 wrote:
I must say I find this one very interesting.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe WN just had new inspectors from the FAA assigned to it. That certainly makes one wonder how long this was overlooked by the previous inspectors. Interesting stuff.


I would be interested in hearing more about this claim of inspectors being replaced.

I very much doubt that the entire Certificate Management Office, which might be 50-75 Aviation Safety Inspectors, was replaced.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:31 am

nagpaw wrote:
mcdu wrote:
nagpaw wrote:
I got a reply from my "person in the know." The weight errors involved were all less than 1,000 pounds. Considering that on the 737-700 each one thousand pounds aircraft weight changes your average takeoff and landing v-speeds by about one knot IAS or less, the maximum altitude capability by less than 1,000 feet, and the average fuel burn by about thirty pounds per hour, this is hardly a safety-of-flight issue. While this incident does speak to SWA's record keeping and its IT department, it's merely a costly clerical error.


That’s a great story. But do you have anything official. If you don’t then it’s highly suspect. You can understand that anyone from WN would want to make this look like it was no big deal. Yet the FAA says its 3.9 million worth of violations.


You should know about company policies regarding social media, so, no, I can't give you anything official. You'll just have to trust. And I'm in no way downplaying the severity of the error. I am saying that people are concerned that this is a deadly safety of flight issue (which it isn't) and generally glossing over the underlying organizational issues (which is bad).

Seriously, were you passed over by SWA for an interview at some point? I can't stand UAL, but you don't see me endlessly bashing them. In fact, I quite often support them in the face of outlandish and sensationalized media reports.


Trust you? Sorry but WN had told some serious lies in the past. Without evidence I’ll take the FAA report as that WN created serious hazard to aviation safety.
 
swacle
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:37 am

Ziyulu wrote:
txjim wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Now it's not a surprise how Southwest ranks low in safety among major carriers.

Cite?


https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/

3 stars out of 7.

Even Air Koryo ranks higher at 6 stars.


Read into the article a bit. WN is 3 of 7 only because they are not IOSA certified, and they are not IOSA certified because they choose not to participate. The 4th star is lost due to flight 1380.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
nagpaw
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:49 am

mcdu wrote:
nagpaw wrote:
mcdu wrote:

That’s a great story. But do you have anything official. If you don’t then it’s highly suspect. You can understand that anyone from WN would want to make this look like it was no big deal. Yet the FAA says its 3.9 million worth of violations.


You should know about company policies regarding social media, so, no, I can't give you anything official. You'll just have to trust. And I'm in no way downplaying the severity of the error. I am saying that people are concerned that this is a deadly safety of flight issue (which it isn't) and generally glossing over the underlying organizational issues (which is bad).

Seriously, were you passed over by SWA for an interview at some point? I can't stand UAL, but you don't see me endlessly bashing them. In fact, I quite often support them in the face of outlandish and sensationalized media reports.


Trust you? Sorry but WN had told some serious lies in the past. Without evidence I’ll take the FAA report as that WN created serious hazard to aviation safety.



Fair enough. But I'm reading this...

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=24575

...and trying to find where it says that "WN created a serious hazaed to aviation safety." Is there an official FAA report that you have access to?
 
kabq737
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:16 am

SteelChair wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I must say I find this one very interesting.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe WN just had new inspectors from the FAA assigned to it. That certainly makes one wonder how long this was overlooked by the previous inspectors. Interesting stuff.


I would be interested in hearing more about this claim of inspectors being replaced.

I very much doubt that the entire Certificate Management Office, which might be 50-75 Aviation Safety Inspectors, was replaced.


Yes, this is only word of mouth in addition to what I read in this forum hence why I asked to be corrected if incorrect :)

I don’t doubt one bit that WN is perfectly safe I just think in general it would be interesting to rotate inspection groups and see what gets missed, if anything.
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
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barney captain
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:10 am

kabq737 wrote:

Yes, this is only word of mouth in addition to what I read in this forum hence why I asked to be corrected if incorrect :)

I don’t doubt one bit that WN is perfectly safe I just think in general it would be interesting to rotate inspection groups and see what gets missed, if anything.


Ironically rotating inspectors would actually be less safe. Each airline has designated inspectors that know that airlines specific procedures and protocols, and are therefore the best at spotting something that wasn't performed to that airlines unique specifications.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
SteelChair
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:45 pm

kabq737 wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I must say I find this one very interesting.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe WN just had new inspectors from the FAA assigned to it. That certainly makes one wonder how long this was overlooked by the previous inspectors. Interesting stuff.


I would be interested in hearing more about this claim of inspectors being replaced.

I very much doubt that the entire Certificate Management Office, which might be 50-75 Aviation Safety Inspectors, was replaced.


Yes, this is only word of mouth in addition to what I read in this forum hence why I asked to be corrected if incorrect :)

I don’t doubt one bit that WN is perfectly safe I just think in general it would be interesting to rotate inspection groups and see what gets missed, if anything.


No entity is "perfectly safe." But I get what you are saying, generally speaking, Southwest does a great job.

While I understand your intent, I don't think your proposal is workable in practice. Each carrier has a unique operating manual, which is a large set of manuals in reality, whereby it details it's own specific methods of compliance. Those manuals are approved by the inspectors at the relevant Certificate Management Office (CMO). Those inspectors have a considerable body of knowledge. Rotating them would cause havoc.
 
BCEaglesCO757
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:02 pm

I hope none of you hold a F.A.A. issued dispatch license. If so , you should be yanked off the floor and have your ticket revoked forever.

The ignorance in some of these comments is frightening.

A thousand pounds overweight on a hot day in PHX would be a BIG DEAL.

To be aviation enthusiasts many in these forums are wholly clueless.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:22 pm

weezydrvr wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
weezydrvr wrote:
And for the people saying how unsafe Southwest is now because a plane’s BOW was 84595 vs 84600, you REALLY need to freshen up on how pax/std bags are accounted for with respect to weight on commercial airplanes (hint - not every male passenger with their carryon bags really weighs 206 lb in the summer and 212 lb in the winter) ...


You're rationalizing a diversion from prescribed procedure. Don't. Flying is a process/procedure business.


I’m not rationalizing anything. There’s a good chance these 40 or so airplanes are also the same ones that have been picked up on lease the last few years and have been through a few paperwork issues. I’m not saying WN wasn’t in the wrong, because no matter what (or who you use to make sure ALL the paperwork is in order before bringing a new lease on property) the buck stops with them. That being said, this wasn’t done intentionally and people dramatizing this and saying that a few 100 lb errors on a plane’s BOW is paramount to a serious safety issue for WN when planes fly around all day not within 1000 lbs of their actual weight (either way) is just silly and unfortunately typical for this website, especially from people with little to no 121 experience. And please don’t lecture me on flying and how it works ... I have plenty of experience in that department.


Aircrafts can and are put on scales to find out the weight. Talking about where the frames come from, or their history is a red herring. If you buy used frames at that huge operation tha Southwest is and they are not weighed, to find out their exact weight, IMO somebody got very sloppy.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 690
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:42 pm

swacle wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
txjim wrote:
Cite?


https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/

3 stars out of 7.

Even Air Koryo ranks higher at 6 stars.


Read into the article a bit. WN is 3 of 7 only because they are not IOSA certified, and they are not IOSA certified because they choose not to participate. The 4th star is lost due to flight 1380.


If they choose not to participate, that says something about their safety. Think about it, if you drive a vehicle and you choose not to have it inspected for safety periodically, is it still safe? Probably, but if there were problems, they would be revealed sooner.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 854
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:20 pm

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:
I hope none of you hold a F.A.A. issued dispatch license. If so , you should be yanked off the floor and have your ticket revoked forever.

The ignorance in some of these comments is frightening.

A thousand pounds overweight on a hot day in PHX would be a BIG DEAL.

To be aviation enthusiasts many in these forums are wholly clueless.


Ok since it appears you called me out. A couple weeks ago I took off out of SFO for MEL 60 pounds under max gross takeoff weight.

Based on 30pounds for every bag we carried unless marked as HEAVY and passenger weights of 210 per male with their 2 personal items and 190 per female with their 2 personal items.

How much overweight do you think I was? I’m betting it’s more than 1000 pounds.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2287
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 pm

BCEaglesCO757 wrote:
I hope none of you hold a F.A.A. issued dispatch license. If so , you should be yanked off the floor and have your ticket revoked forever.

The ignorance in some of these comments is frightening.

A thousand pounds overweight on a hot day in PHX would be a BIG DEAL.

To be aviation enthusiasts many in these forums are wholly clueless.

1000 pounds overweight may mean 10 oversized passengers or a group of people coming from book publishing meeting with few large hardcovers in their carry-ons
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1420
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
swacle wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/

3 stars out of 7.

Even Air Koryo ranks higher at 6 stars.


Read into the article a bit. WN is 3 of 7 only because they are not IOSA certified, and they are not IOSA certified because they choose not to participate. The 4th star is lost due to flight 1380.

If they choose not to participate, that says something about their safety. Think about it, if you drive a vehicle and you choose not to have it inspected for safety periodically, is it still safe? Probably, but if there were problems, they would be revealed sooner.

No, as WN (or any other airlines in the US) is periodically inspected by the FAA; it's not like they can do whatever the heck they want.

Per Airline Ratings themselves (bolding mine):
The IOSA certification audit is an internationally recognised and accepted evaluation system designed to assess the operational management and control systems of an airline. IOSA uses internationally recognised audit principles and is designed to conduct audits in a standardised and consistent manner. Airlines are re evaluated every two years. Registering for IOSA certification and auditing is not mandatory therefore an airline that does not have IOSA certification may have either failed the IOSA audit or alternatively chosen not to participate. Small regional airlines generally don’t do the IOSA audit purely because of the cost to a)have the audit conducted and b) to implement the likely required changes.

Of course flying with an airline that is IOSA certified doesn’t mean you “wont have a crash” nor does it mean that an airline without IOSA isn’t safe, but a pasenger can have comfort knowing that an IOSA certiified airline does comply with the most stringent of rules and practices governing aviation safety. Todays results revealed that IOSA certified airlines had a crash rate three times less than those airlines not on the IOSA registry.

Note all the typos and grammatical errors in the Airline Ratings article; doesn't that tell you a lot about their own trustworthiness (since they can't even proofread they own website pages)?

Also, just as an example as to why the IOSA Certification and the Airlines Rating might be overblown: Asiana is IOSA-certified and has a Safety Rating of 6/7. However, Asiana was able to slam a 777 in a seawall at SFO (Asiana Flight 214) in 2013 resulting in 3 deaths. In contrast, Southwest Airlines is not IOSA-certified and has a Safety Rating or 3/7, with 1 death in 2018 due to uncontained engine failure.
 
swacle
Posts: 507
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: Southwest faces fine for errors in Aircraft weighing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:58 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
swacle wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:

https://www.airlineratings.com/ratings/ ... -airlines/

3 stars out of 7.

Even Air Koryo ranks higher at 6 stars.


Read into the article a bit. WN is 3 of 7 only because they are not IOSA certified, and they are not IOSA certified because they choose not to participate. The 4th star is lost due to flight 1380.


If they choose not to participate, that says something about their safety. Think about it, if you drive a vehicle and you choose not to have it inspected for safety periodically, is it still safe? Probably, but if there were problems, they would be revealed sooner.


Or, as posted above, they are already regularly reviewed and therefore choose to not waste cash and resources on an optional, third party audit?
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