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aeromoe
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Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:06 am

A bit late to post this, but today (13 Jan 2020) is the 38th anniversary of Air Florida Flight 90 ex-DCA. I was thinking of this a couple days ago but forgot to make a mention of it. I flew through DCA a week ago and first thought of it then.

RIP to those involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90

Moe
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:56 am

That's always a sad one to remember. That captain was a jerk. Does anyone know if Air Florida had adopted CRM training before that crash?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:54 am

How anyone was able to survive in that ice cold water before rescue is amazing, many heros that day.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:24 pm

My cousin worked in DC then and had just crossed the bridge into VA when she heard the bang. Didn't know what happened until she got home to Woodbridge, VA. She never listened to the radio when driving in DC traffic and she was quite rattled for a bit.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
That's always a sad one to remember. That captain was a jerk. Does anyone know if Air Florida had adopted CRM training before that crash?


That linked article discusses CRM being integrated into training after the crash so I don't think it was part of the culture prior. Sad chain of events leading up to the crash...as most are.
AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR BY B6 CO CP(2) DG DL EA EI EN FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(1) OZ(2) PA PI PT QF QQ RM RO RV(1) RV(2) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(2) ZZ 9K
 
F27500
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:56 pm

Absolutely horrible crash .. but so much was learned from it. Most importantly .. how dangerous one bad pilot can be.
 
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ClassicLover
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:15 pm

A television movie about the crash came out in 1984 and is unique in that it has lots of shots of actual Air Florida aircraft on the ground.

It's well worth checking out - the entire 90 minute movie is on YouTube - https://youtu.be/IBlRsNACp3k

What is also good about the production is that it uses the actual CVR transcript for the actors to say, so it's accurate in that respect. Also, it cuts the studio footage of the actors in the river with the TV footage taken of the helicopter rescue. It's a little time capsule of what happened, and is one reason I know about this disaster.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
1ffb2002
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:18 pm

I was working NW Ops that afternoon. The weather was bad but not terrible. I remember walking down the concourse and saw the AF plane at the gate before going down to ops. It was lightly snowing and there was snow accumulation on the plane and the tarmac, but it was a thick heavy snow. After I got into the Ops office, I got a call from the Freight House telling me there was a crash. I immediately contacted my two planes on final and they were fine. Within a few minutes the airport was closed and we had to deal with full flights which were cancelled. Passengers were very calm except for a few rowdies. The same night there was a fatal crash on the Metro and it was out of service as well. Several months later, I was working the counter and the pilot, who was a passenger on the AF flight who saved the flight attendant, was flying our mid-day flight to Seattle via Minneapolis. He was in a wheelchair with metal pins coming out of his knees. He told me he had been on NW's nonstop to Seattle out of IAD the night before which had an engine that blew up on takeoff and the plane had to return to the airport and of course cancelled. I thought to myself, what were the chances to be on two successive flights, one with tragic consequences, the other with a mechanical failure. The odds had to be astronomical. But it happened.

Another strange coincidence, the Costa Concordia wrecked of the coast of Italy exactly 30 years later in 2012, almost to the minute. January 13th may not be a good day to travel near water.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
That's always a sad one to remember. That captain was a jerk. Does anyone know if Air Florida had adopted CRM training before that crash?


Im sorry, but I think its a bit rude to call the captain an jerk when he was killed during the incident. He can't defend himself or his decisions, so a bit of respect please.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:58 pm

IWMBH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That's always a sad one to remember. That captain was a jerk. Does anyone know if Air Florida had adopted CRM training before that crash?


Im sorry, but I think its a bit rude to call the captain an jerk when he was killed during the incident. He can't defend himself or his decisions, so a bit of respect please.


I have read the NTSB report. There's no defense for his actions that day. Dying doesn't erase your mistakes or how you treated others when you were alive.
 
phllax
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:03 pm

1ffb2002 wrote:
Several months later, I was working the counter and the pilot, who was a passenger on the AF flight who saved the flight attendant, was flying our mid-day flight to Seattle via Minneapolis. He was in a wheelchair with metal pins coming out of his knees. He told me he had been on NW's nonstop to Seattle out of IAD the night before which had an engine that blew up on takeoff and the plane had to return to the airport and of course cancelled.


That must have been Joe Stiley.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That's always a sad one to remember. That captain was a jerk. Does anyone know if Air Florida had adopted CRM training before that crash?


Im sorry, but I think its a bit rude to call the captain an jerk when he was killed during the incident. He can't defend himself or his decisions, so a bit of respect please.


I have read the NTSB report. There's no defense for his actions that day. Dying doesn't erase your mistakes or how you treated others when you were alive.


Making mistakes doesn't make you a jerk, everyone makes mistakes that is what makes us human.
This is especially true if your are in a situation that you're not familiar with, like the pilots of flight 90 where.
The report states that the captain was known as a quiet person, and his leadership style was ''described as not different from other captains'' doesn't sound like a jerk to me.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:14 pm

IWMBH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
IWMBH wrote:

Im sorry, but I think its a bit rude to call the captain an jerk when he was killed during the incident. He can't defend himself or his decisions, so a bit of respect please.


I have read the NTSB report. There's no defense for his actions that day. Dying doesn't erase your mistakes or how you treated others when you were alive.


Making mistakes doesn't make you a jerk, everyone makes mistakes that is what makes us human.
This is especially true if your are in a situation that you're not familiar with, like the pilots of flight 90 where.
The report states that the captain was known as a quiet person, and his leadership style was ''described as not different from other captains'' doesn't sound like a jerk to me.


He was very disrespectful to the FO on that flight and would not listen to his concerns. That's not a good captain.

And what do you mean when you say they weren't familiar with the situation? All major airline pilots are trained to deal with de-icing and cold weather operations. The captain was rushing to get out of there and didn't follow proper procedure.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I have read the NTSB report. There's no defense for his actions that day. Dying doesn't erase your mistakes or how you treated others when you were alive.


Making mistakes doesn't make you a jerk, everyone makes mistakes that is what makes us human.
This is especially true if your are in a situation that you're not familiar with, like the pilots of flight 90 where.
The report states that the captain was known as a quiet person, and his leadership style was ''described as not different from other captains'' doesn't sound like a jerk to me.


He was very disrespectful to the FO on that flight and would not listen to his concerns. That's not a good captain.

And what do you mean when you say they weren't familiar with the situation? All major airline pilots are trained to deal with de-icing and cold weather operations. The captain was rushing to get out of there and didn't follow proper procedure.


Unfortunately, CRM was not common place in 1982. The first airline (United) only starting a CRM-training problem a year before. This was one of the crashes that helped prove that CRM was a necessity for all aircrews. But, it is unfair to the crew of flight 90 to compare their action to 2020 standards.

And, being trained for a situation doesn't mean you're familiar with it. To quote the report, the captain had: ''flown eight takeoffs or landings in which precipitation and freezing or near-freezing conditions occurred''. That doesn't sound like a person familiar with the situation he found himself in, even if he was trained to deal with the situation.
 
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bluestreak
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:44 pm

I remember that day well. Although I was only 14 at the time, I was already an aviation nut.

On that day, the reason I remember it so well, was because my aunt, and cousin were flying that day from ATL-ORD, then onward to HNL. The news came over the radio that there had been a plane crash in Washington. I immediately thought of my relatives, but then realized they were not flying into DCA. The details came shortly afterwards, and although I was a bit relieved, I was very sad for all who were involved.

A tragic day in aviation for sure, but one that we have learned many lessons from.
"Well, we barely made the airport, for the last plane out, as we taxied down the runway, I could hear the people shout"
 
DCAfan
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:04 pm

It wss an extremely traumatic event for residents of the DMV. Drew Lewis took charge for the federal government as many were concerned the accident may have been caused by air traffic control error. To reiterate here, it was Drew Lewis who fired the air traffic controllers.

I'm pleased that aviation has gotten a lot safer since those days. But we should never forget Air Florida flight 90.
 
1ffb2002
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:12 pm

phllax wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
Several months later, I was working the counter and the pilot, who was a passenger on the AF flight who saved the flight attendant, was flying our mid-day flight to Seattle via Minneapolis. He was in a wheelchair with metal pins coming out of his knees. He told me he had been on NW's nonstop to Seattle out of IAD the night before which had an engine that blew up on takeoff and the plane had to return to the airport and of course cancelled.


That must have been Joe Stiley.


Yes, indeed it was.
 
georgiabill
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:58 pm

AF flight? Air France is AF and flys out of IAD not DCA. Not nitpicking but what is the AF flight your talking about. Just curious
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:54 am

georgiabill wrote:
AF flight? Air France is AF and flys out of IAD not DCA. Not nitpicking but what is the AF flight your talking about. Just curious

Given the topic of the thread, I'm assuming Air Florida.
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ClassicLover
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Re: Air Florida Flight 90 anniversary

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:07 am

georgiabill wrote:
AF flight? Air France is AF and flys out of IAD not DCA. Not nitpicking but what is the AF flight your talking about. Just curious


See above. I think Air Florida's code was QH, by the way.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!

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