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LatinPlane
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AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:30 am

AM's widebody fleet may jump up to 30 787s in the not-to-distant future. Not official yet, but as part of what looks like compensation from Boeing for the 737MAX grounding, the manufacturer is offering firm 787 options to the carrier. All the 19 originally ordered batch composed of 9 788 and 10 789 models have already been delivered. In addition, the airline has secured 2 more 789s to be delivered at the end of this year with a further 3 more aircraft coming in early 2021. The airline would get another 6 options to be delivered after 2022 should it agree to favorable terms. Boeing is at risk of losing faithful AM to Airbus, now that DL calls the shots.

More widebody flights on key transborder routes, upgauged service to upper-South America, and new destination in Europe. Let's not forget that AM's CEO has indicated that the best way to grow is to get larger aircraft in slot constrained MEX.

https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/opinion/dario-celis/el-punto-de-inflexion-de-aeromexico

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Oykie
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:49 am

Interesting news. I wonder how many airlines will take mor 787 as compensation for 737MAX grounding? I’m sure AM will be able to utilize the bigger amount of Dreamliner’s
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VSMUT
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:55 am

So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:58 am

VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


It all comes out of the same company P&L at some point. Supposedly they’ve improved the margins on 787:
 
panam330
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:06 am

LatinPlane wrote:
now that DL calls the shots.

:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.
 
rabader
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:20 am

panam330 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
now that DL calls the shots.

:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.


Even though Delta only owns 49% they’re the biggest shareholder. If it wasn’t limited by Mexican law probably the investment would be larger
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:26 am

rabader wrote:
panam330 wrote:
:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.


Even though Delta only owns 49% they’re the biggest shareholder. If it wasn’t limited by Mexican law probably the investment would be larger

None of which refutes a single thing PanAm330 just said.....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
VSMUT
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:26 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


It all comes out of the same company P&L at some point. Supposedly they’ve improved the margins on 787:


Sure, but the last mass discounting of 777s should be a lesson as to why they shouldn't touch a succesful aircraft. Loads of cheap 787 delay compensation 777-300ERs and attempts to bridge the production gap to the X is what keeps the values low and contributes to the 777Xs lack of sales.
The 787 was beginning to look like it was finally going to break even eventually. That will take a hit if Boeing floods the market with cheap compensation 787s.
 
rabader
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:
rabader wrote:
panam330 wrote:
:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.


Even though Delta only owns 49% they’re the biggest shareholder. If it wasn’t limited by Mexican law probably the investment would be larger

None of which refutes a single thing PanAm330 just said.....


Delta owns 49% and the next biggest shareholders are around 6%. For sure there is a non-Delta 51% block but it is undeniably the control and influence of Delta. Given that I accept that some people take this as if all the shots are called from Atlante which I don’t believe is true.
 
LatinPlane
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:36 am

panam330 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
now that DL calls the shots.

:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.


I was referring to the the purchasing power AM now commands thanks to Delta's 49% ownership. This is something AM didn't have before, even when it originally placed its 100 plane order to Boeing back in 2012. Remember that DL was thinking of transferring some of its first Bombardier Cseries to AM back when it was risking paying a 300% tariff. Influence or control, these synergies are a huge win-win for the DL-AM partnership.

In fact, AM is also about to make a decision on the future of its Embraer fleet. Embraer will have it very tough now that DL has tried and proven the ultra-efficient and cost effective A220. I doubt AM will pass up on DL's help to negotiate the terms...
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Checklist787
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:37 am

VSMUT wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


It all comes out of the same company P&L at some point. Supposedly they’ve improved the margins on 787:


Sure, but the last mass discounting of 777s should be a lesson as to why they shouldn't touch a succesful aircraft. Loads of cheap 787 delay compensation 777-300ERs and attempts to bridge the production gap to the X is what keeps the values low and contributes to the 777Xs lack of sales.
The 787 was beginning to look like it was finally going to break even eventually. That will take a hit if Boeing floods the market with cheap compensation 787s.



I agree with you for the 787 but the 777-300ER would you have proof?
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Beanbag
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:10 am

VSMUT wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


It all comes out of the same company P&L at some point. Supposedly they’ve improved the margins on 787:


Sure, but the last mass discounting of 777s should be a lesson as to why they shouldn't touch a succesful aircraft. Loads of cheap 787 delay compensation 777-300ERs and attempts to bridge the production gap to the X is what keeps the values low and contributes to the 777Xs lack of sales.
The 787 was beginning to look like it was finally going to break even eventually. That will take a hit if Boeing floods the market with cheap compensation 787s.

The catch 22 is the 777 is serious overkill for alot of airlines, whereas the 787 is that much smaller where it works. Boeing’s main goal is saving face, even if it means using the 787 to help pick up the slack. Its the one newer airliner they have that isnt in the midst of a developmental disaster, they might as well have it help out.
 
VSMUT
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:39 am

Beanbag wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:

It all comes out of the same company P&L at some point. Supposedly they’ve improved the margins on 787:


Sure, but the last mass discounting of 777s should be a lesson as to why they shouldn't touch a succesful aircraft. Loads of cheap 787 delay compensation 777-300ERs and attempts to bridge the production gap to the X is what keeps the values low and contributes to the 777Xs lack of sales.
The 787 was beginning to look like it was finally going to break even eventually. That will take a hit if Boeing floods the market with cheap compensation 787s.

The catch 22 is the 777 is serious overkill for alot of airlines, whereas the 787 is that much smaller where it works. Boeing’s main goal is saving face, even if it means using the 787 to help pick up the slack. Its the one newer airliner they have that isnt in the midst of a developmental disaster, they might as well have it help out.


The problem is that even if the MAX recovers quickly, 787 values will continue to take a hit a long time after. It might actually be cheaper to just pay out the compensations. More discounted sales keep the shares price up though, so Boeing definitely didn't change in that department.
 
chiki
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:14 am

As long as the 787 are at the right price it will be foolish for DL not accepting AM buying them. After the 737max issue it's not like BA does not know how to design and manufacture planes.

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RCS763AV
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:35 am

I'm glad to hear AM is getting more 787s. Certainly this will mean more service to Asia and Europe and maybe the return of GIG to the network. Now if only AMLO hadn't been such a dick and we wouldn't have been stuck with shitty, unconvenient MEX for the next twenty years. Imagine! AM would be the Latin America-Asia connection powerhouse.
 
Beanbag
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:39 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Beanbag wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Sure, but the last mass discounting of 777s should be a lesson as to why they shouldn't touch a succesful aircraft. Loads of cheap 787 delay compensation 777-300ERs and attempts to bridge the production gap to the X is what keeps the values low and contributes to the 777Xs lack of sales.
The 787 was beginning to look like it was finally going to break even eventually. That will take a hit if Boeing floods the market with cheap compensation 787s.

The catch 22 is the 777 is serious overkill for alot of airlines, whereas the 787 is that much smaller where it works. Boeing’s main goal is saving face, even if it means using the 787 to help pick up the slack. Its the one newer airliner they have that isnt in the midst of a developmental disaster, they might as well have it help out.


The problem is that even if the MAX recovers quickly, 787 values will continue to take a hit a long time after. It might actually be cheaper to just pay out the compensations. More discounted sales keep the shares price up though, so Boeing definitely didn't change in that department.

Yeah, but thats secondary in the face of the 737MAX grounding, Thats their job one right now, everything else is secondary. It really boils down to the priorities.. Breaking even on one aircraft program? Or getting 800+ very broken 737s, their cash cow, back into the sky as soon as possible and rebooting production? They have their priorities right, even if it means a few cheap 787s will be flying around. Its their one serious bargaining chip in compensating actual grounded hardware with hardware quickly.
 
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:36 pm

None of us is intimate with the contractual obligations associated with this offer. We know it is routine for airlines to get steep discounts on frames. This could be offering similar discounts along with a piece of paper that says, "By signing here you wave all claims to future MAX-related compensation" or something to that effect. It could be a win-win. Do I think Boeing is dumping free 787s on the market? That indeed would be counterproductive.
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lightsaber
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:14 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
panam330 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
now that DL calls the shots.

:sarcastic: They own 49% of AM. Might they have an influence? Of course. Do they hold ultimate control? No. This continued assertion in here (not just by you) that Delta controls all of their partners regardless of stake is ludicrous.


I was referring to the the purchasing power AM now commands thanks to Delta's 49% ownership. This is something AM didn't have before, even when it originally placed its 100 plane order to Boeing back in 2012. Remember that DL was thinking of transferring some of its first Bombardier Cseries to AM back when it was risking paying a 300% tariff. Influence or control, these synergies are a huge win-win for the DL-AM partnership.

In fact, AM is also about to make a decision on the future of its Embraer fleet. Embraer will have it very tough now that DL has tried and proven the ultra-efficient and cost effective A220. I doubt AM will pass up on DL's help to negotiate the terms...

I personally have the opinion DL can help AM, and that includes leverage in Aircraft purchases. DL is buying in for Synergies. AM should be having DL look over their shoulder on the A220/E2 bid. To my knowledge, Embraer is in the competition still, although I think the A220 has an advantage thanks to economy of scale and PiPs.

As to the discount, maybe for MAX, but keeping a customer and selling more of a product that needs more backlog is never a bad idea.

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MIflyer12
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:22 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
I was referring to the the purchasing power AM now commands thanks to Delta's 49% ownership.


I'm not convinced AM has materially better purchasing power. DL isn't negotiating mass buys for its equity partners. And it's not like DL is going to buy frames and sell them cheaply to AM: that's a breach of fiduciary duties to DL shareholders.

DL could share performance info on its A220 fleet to help AM measure it against E2s.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
AM's widebody fleet may jump up to 30 787s in the not-to-distant future.


UA and AA already are flying 90 787s, so 30 787s doesn't seem like a lot for a country of Mexico's size. They may actually be able to expand to European or deep South American flights from GDL, MTY and TIJ.

I don't see much influence from Delta, except for the choice of Amsterdam Airport Schiphol as a higher priority than restoing service to Leonardo da Vinci–Fiumicino Airport.
 
CMA727
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:34 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
AM's widebody fleet may jump up to 30 787s in the not-to-distant future. Not official yet, but as part of what looks like compensation from Boeing for the 737MAX grounding, the manufacturer is offering firm 787 options to the carrier. All the 19 originally ordered batch composed of 9 788 and 10 789 models have already been delivered. In addition, the airline has secured 2 more 789s to be delivered at the end of this year with a further 3 more aircraft coming in early 2021. The airline would get another 6 options to be delivered after 2022 should it agree to favorable terms. Boeing is at risk of losing faithful AM to Airbus, now that DL calls the shots.

More widebody flights on key transborder routes, upgauged service to upper-South America, and new destination in Europe. Let's not forget that AM's CEO has indicated that the best way to grow is to get larger aircraft in slot constrained MEX.

https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/opinion/dario-celis/el-punto-de-inflexion-de-aeromexico



IThe problem at "slot constrained MEX" is that it lacks gates that can accomodate larger and wider aircraft. I know Terminal 1 even has problems assigning contact gates for A321´s. Unless the propossed Terminal 3 is finally built I don´t see how Terminal 2 that AM uses, can accomodate those 30 widebody 787´s.

Saludos.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:39 pm

VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


It's not just because of the MAX. Boeing also faces production gaps in 2022 and beyond, and is looking for more sales to avoid further rate cuts.
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Web500sjc
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:43 pm

CMA727 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
AM's widebody fleet may jump up to 30 787s in the not-to-distant future. Not official yet, but as part of what looks like compensation from Boeing for the 737MAX grounding, the manufacturer is offering firm 787 options to the carrier. All the 19 originally ordered batch composed of 9 788 and 10 789 models have already been delivered. In addition, the airline has secured 2 more 789s to be delivered at the end of this year with a further 3 more aircraft coming in early 2021. The airline would get another 6 options to be delivered after 2022 should it agree to favorable terms. Boeing is at risk of losing faithful AM to Airbus, now that DL calls the shots.

More widebody flights on key transborder routes, upgauged service to upper-South America, and new destination in Europe. Let's not forget that AM's CEO has indicated that the best way to grow is to get larger aircraft in slot constrained MEX.

https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/opinion/dario-celis/el-punto-de-inflexion-de-aeromexico



IThe problem at "slot constrained MEX" is that it lacks gates that can accomodate larger and wider aircraft. I know Terminal 1 even has problems assigning contact gates for A321´s. Unless the propossed Terminal 3 is finally built I don´t see how Terminal 2 that AM uses, can accomodate those 30 widebody 787´s.

Saludos.



Just use Buses, stairs and lifts.
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EddieDude
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:59 pm

LatinPlane wrote:
the airline has secured 2 more 789s to be delivered at the end of this year with a further 3 more aircraft coming in early 2021. The airline would get another 6 options to be delivered after 2022 should it agree to favorable terms. Boeing is at risk of losing faithful AM to Airbus, now that DL calls the shots.

More widebody flights on key transborder routes, upgauged service to upper-South America, and new destination in Europe.

Awesome news! Thanks for the info.

Airbus might have a bit of an advantage if AM wanted to replace the E190s and the 737-700s with A220s. The Embraers should be relatively new if I am not mistaken; remember AM decided to replace its ERJ-145s with larger E-170s and E-190s not too long ago. The 737-700s probably need to be replaced sooner though (are they 16-17 years old on average?). In fact, it was discussed here a few months ago that DL, at the time of the C-Series tariff situation, brokered some sort of presentation or meeting in order the A220 to AM, but I don't think anything came out of it. Having said that, I do believe the A220 would be a great aircraft for AM and I am sure they are constantly studying specs, pricing, fuel consumption, high-altitude performance, their market needs, etc. so who knows. As for AM dropping the MAX for A320s or considering Airbus widebodies, you can probably forget that. AM loves its Dreamliners and they are great aircraft for AM needs. With respect to the MAX, those will fly again and AM will receive all the outstanding orders. The added range will be sufficient for AM to reinstate or increase certain flights to Canada, the U.S., Central America and the northern region of South America that have been affected by the MAX grounding.

I think MEX-JFK should be predominantly 787 service. Not sure if adding other cross-border Dreamliner routes would be a good idea. It'd be interesting to read pros and cons. MEX-BOG and MEX-LIM get some widebody service from AV and LA, so AM would be wise to convert those routes from narrow- to widebodies. While we are on the subject of South America, may we see MEX-GIG return 4x weekly with 788s?

Any idea what new European destination AM is looking at? FRA or MUC would be sweet, but it seems very unlikely that AM could be able to make inroads in any of those markets dominated by LH. MXP? I cannot see other Euro destinations, but who knows?
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
CMA727
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:00 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
CMA727 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
AM's widebody fleet may jump up to 30 787s in the not-to-distant future. Not official yet, but as part of what looks like compensation from Boeing for the 737MAX grounding, the manufacturer is offering firm 787 options to the carrier. All the 19 originally ordered batch composed of 9 788 and 10 789 models have already been delivered. In addition, the airline has secured 2 more 789s to be delivered at the end of this year with a further 3 more aircraft coming in early 2021. The airline would get another 6 options to be delivered after 2022 should it agree to favorable terms. Boeing is at risk of losing faithful AM to Airbus, now that DL calls the shots.

More widebody flights on key transborder routes, upgauged service to upper-South America, and new destination in Europe. Let's not forget that AM's CEO has indicated that the best way to grow is to get larger aircraft in slot constrained MEX.

https://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/opinion/dario-celis/el-punto-de-inflexion-de-aeromexico



IThe problem at "slot constrained MEX" is that it lacks gates that can accomodate larger and wider aircraft. I know Terminal 1 even has problems assigning contact gates for A321´s. Unless the propossed Terminal 3 is finally built I don´t see how Terminal 2 that AM uses, can accomodate those 30 widebody 787´s.

Saludos.



Just use Buses, stairs and lifts.


MEX also faces issues with "remote" parking spots capacity. I have heard that new "remote" positions will be made available at the northeast part of the airport. Even if they are built they will mean a very long bus trip for passengers to/from T2. The bottom line is that adding WB services at MEX, both Pax & Cargo is extremely complicated due it´s infraestructure limitations. I guess AM knows better. Will see what happens. In any case, those addtional 787´s will be a great addition to AM´s fleet as long as they can park them at MEX.
 
rabader
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:24 pm

EddieDude wrote:
I think MEX-JFK should be predominantly 787 service. Not sure if adding other cross-border Dreamliner routes would be a good idea. It'd be interesting to read pros and cons. MEX-BOG and MEX-LIM get some widebody service from AV and LA, so AM would be wise to convert those routes from narrow- to widebodies. While we are on the subject of South America, may we see MEX-GIG return 4x weekly with 788s?


AM uses the 788 in the summer for MEX-LAX. It seems hard to see AM going widebody in MEX-BOG, MEX-LIM too much capacity and competition in those particular routes.

EddieDude wrote:
Any idea what new European destination AM is looking at? FRA or MUC would be sweet, but it seems very unlikely that AM could be able to make inroads in any of those markets dominated by LH. MXP? I cannot see other Euro destinations, but who knows?


I don't think there is enough O&D from MEX to Germany. I think part of these airplanes would help consolidate routes, maybe have the double daily to CDG, or increase to MAD. From new routes perspective, I think FCO makes more sense than MXP.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:08 pm

rabader wrote:
I don't think there is enough O&D from MEX to Germany. I think part of these airplanes would help consolidate routes, maybe have the double daily to CDG, or increase to MAD. From new routes perspective, I think FCO makes more sense than MXP.


Aeromexico used to fly to both FCO and FRA using the B767. But I think it has been a long time.

At present there is pretty good TransAtlantic Service from Mexico City
Aeroméxico Amsterdam, Barcelona, London–Heathrow, Madrid,Paris–Charles de Gaulle
Air France Paris–Charles de Gaulle
Alitalia Rome–Fiumicino
British Airways London–Heathrow
Emirates Barcelona, Dubai–International
Iberia Madrid
KLM Amsterdam
Lufthansa Frankfurt, Munich
Turkish Airlines Istanbul

Cancun Transatlantic
Air Europa Madrid
Evelop Airlines Madrid
Air France Paris–Charles de Gaulle
Blue Panorama Airlines Milan–Malpensa
British Airways London–Gatwick
Edelweiss Air Zürich
Lufthansa Frankfurt
Neos Milan–Malpensa, Rome–Fiumicino, Verona
Turkish Airlines Istanbul
Condor Frankfurt Seasonal: Munich (begins May 4, 2020)
Azur Air Seasonal Charter: Moscow-Vnukovo
Nordwind Airlines Charter: Moscow–Sheremetyevo
LOT Polish Airlines Seasonal Charter: Warsaw–Chopin
Orbest Seasonal: Lisbon
Royal Flight Seasonal charter: Moscow-Sheremetyevo
Sunclass Airlines Seasonal charter: Stockholm-Arlanda
TUI Airways: Seasonal: Bristol, Doncaster/Sheffield (begins May 3, 2020), Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle upon Tyne
Seasonal charter: Copenhagen, Gothenburg, Helsinki, Stockholm–Arlanda
TUI fly Belgium Brussels
TUI fly Netherlands Amsterdam Seasonal: Warsaw–Chopin

I should think there may be enough people to institute service from GDL and MTY. At least to Madrid and/or Paris.
 
EddieDude
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:10 pm

rabader wrote:
It seems hard to see AM going widebody in MEX-BOG, MEX-LIM too much capacity and competition in those particular routes.

Good point re: the capacity and competition. However, one of AV's frequencies on MEX-BOG is a widebody. AM could do the same. Or maybe consolidate flights, say two widebody flights replacing three narrowbody flights. Isn't LA's LIM-MEX all-widebody anyway? To many travelers, narrowbodies might be seen as a lesser product.

rabader wrote:
I don't think there is enough O&D from MEX to Germany. I think part of these airplanes would help consolidate routes, maybe have the double daily to CDG, or increase to MAD. From new routes perspective, I think FCO makes more sense than MXP.

I think there is huge O&D from Mexico to Germany. VW, BMW, Daimler, Siemens, ThyssenKrupp, Continental, Bosch, BASF, Bayer, DHL, Allianz, SAP, Adidas... the list is really large. Mexico is a great platform for industrial outposts from companies from all over the world due to USMCA (formerly NAFTA), the TPP, and its free-trade agreements with the EU and so many countries in the Americas and elsewhere. LH has daily 748 service from FRA and 6-weekly A346 service from MUC and their loads are fantastic. Having said that, as I mentioned, I think it'd be hard for AM to make inroads in the Germany-Mexico O&D market.

CDG double daily sounds interesting but I wonder if that is desirable for all the parties involved if AM joins the DL, AF, KL, AZ, VS trans-Atlantic alliance. With AF offering so many daily seats, especially premium seats (A380), an additional AM frequency would dilute yields for all the parties.

MAD can always be increased. IB has added so many frequencies!

Why do you believe MXP is less attractive than FCO? Rome is a tourist mecca for sure, but the money (stock exchange, banks, insurers, FIAT, other industrial concerns) is definitely in the north of Italy, and there is significant Italian investment in Mexico.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
SteelChair
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Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LatinPlane wrote:
I was referring to the the purchasing power AM now commands thanks to Delta's 49% ownership.


I'm not convinced AM has materially better purchasing power. DL isn't negotiating mass buys for its equity partners. And it's not like DL is going to buy frames and sell them cheaply to AM: that's a breach of fiduciary duties to DL shareholders.

DL could share performance info on its A220 fleet to help AM measure it against E2s.


That's true, look at KLM. They keep going solidly Boeing even though Delta is currently 100% (order book) Airbus.

I've wondered for awhile about all of the global alliances/JV's with regard to purchasing. Why aren't they pooling their resources for larger block buys with bigger discounts?
 
Sjtstudios
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:31 am

Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:20 am

VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


Might assume that a few deals like this could help them get back to rate 14 on the Dreamliner. Offering the extra 2 Planes every month at a significantly discounted price, even just barely above production cost would improve the margins on the other 12 planes enough for it to be worthwhile. Great mutual benefit for AM and Boeing.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4591
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:21 am

Sjtstudios wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
So Boeing is beginning to hand out cheap 787s as compensation for the MAX? Sacrificing margins on the only money-maker they currently have?


Might assume that a few deals like this could help them get back to rate 14 on the Dreamliner. Offering the extra 2 Planes every month at a significantly discounted price, even just barely above production cost would improve the margins on the other 12 planes enough for it to be worthwhile. Great mutual benefit for AM and Boeing.


Not at discounted prices. They need to sell 14 a month at profitable prices.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3859
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:21 am

EddieDude wrote:
rabader wrote:
It seems hard to see AM going widebody in MEX-BOG, MEX-LIM too much capacity and competition in those particular routes.

Good point re: the capacity and competition. However, one of AV's frequencies on MEX-BOG is a widebody. AM could do the same. Or maybe consolidate flights, say two widebody flights replacing three narrowbody flights. Isn't LA's LIM-MEX all-widebody anyway? To many travelers, narrowbodies might be seen as a lesser product.

rabader wrote:
I don't think there is enough O&D from MEX to Germany. I think part of these airplanes would help consolidate routes, maybe have the double daily to CDG, or increase to MAD. From new routes perspective, I think FCO makes more sense than MXP.

I think there is huge O&D from Mexico to Germany. VW, BMW, Daimler, Siemens, ThyssenKrupp, Continental, Bosch, BASF, Bayer, DHL, Allianz, SAP, Adidas... the list is really large. Mexico is a great platform for industrial outposts from companies from all over the world due to USMCA (formerly NAFTA), the TPP, and its free-trade agreements with the EU and so many countries in the Americas and elsewhere. LH has daily 748 service from FRA and 6-weekly A346 service from MUC and their loads are fantastic. Having said that, as I mentioned, I think it'd be hard for AM to make inroads in the Germany-Mexico O&D market.

CDG double daily sounds interesting but I wonder if that is desirable for all the parties involved if AM joins the DL, AF, KL, AZ, VS trans-Atlantic alliance. With AF offering so many daily seats, especially premium seats (A380), an additional AM frequency would dilute yields for all the parties.

MAD can always be increased. IB has added so many frequencies!

Why do you believe MXP is less attractive than FCO? Rome is a tourist mecca for sure, but the money (stock exchange, banks, insurers, FIAT, other industrial concerns) is definitely in the north of Italy, and there is significant Italian investment in Mexico.


Hasn't AM operated the 787 to BOG at some points during high season? I don't thint it's far fetched to see them regularly on BOG/LIM-MEX once they have more to spare.

As I said before, MEX-GIG is also a possibility.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: AM Grows 787 Fleet

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:43 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Hasn't AM operated the 787 to BOG at some points during high season? I don't thint it's far fetched to see them regularly on BOG/LIM-MEX once they have more to spare.

I frankly don't know if AM has done so, but about two years ago or so AM came very close to publicly announcing that one MEX-BOG rotation was switching to the 788 (presumably year-long), so clearly they have been thinking about it and doing numbers.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).

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