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airnorth
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:33 pm

I posted my musings in the wrong thread, so will re-post here, hopefully that is OK.
I will have to frame this differently now, as it is not really a slot availability question anymore, but I am genuinely curious if there is any other evidence of a possible order from this very small operator.

I have a long winded question about A220 slot availability, so I hope its OK to post this in the production/ delivery thread.
I keep hearing that AirNorth is going to upgrade its current fleet of 737 classics, consisting of 4 - 500's and 1 - 400, it looks like all of the Jurassic 200's are now gone. In the current issue of their inflight magazine, "Yukon North of Ordinary" , AirNorth President Joe Sparling says that " An upgrade to our jet fleet is on the horizon and we are including environmental considerations in our analysis alongside capital and operating costs". There are also three tables showing fuel savings between current fleet and "Newest Generation Jet" with a seat count of 160.
Talk on the very small streets in the Yukon is that AirNorth is looking very seriously at the A220, however, the 160 seat count is the maximum for the 300 according to wiki, so that piece of the puzzle fits.
Are there any slots available in the next couple of years for a new small customer? It seems that with some of the soft orders that they could squeeze in an order for 5?
 
yyztpa2
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:12 pm

airnorth wrote:
I posted my musings in the wrong thread, so will re-post here, hopefully that is OK.
I will have to frame this differently now, as it is not really a slot availability question anymore, but I am genuinely curious if there is any other evidence of a possible order from this very small operator.

I have a long winded question about A220 slot availability, so I hope its OK to post this in the production/ delivery thread.
I keep hearing that AirNorth is going to upgrade its current fleet of 737 classics, consisting of 4 - 500's and 1 - 400, it looks like all of the Jurassic 200's are now gone. In the current issue of their inflight magazine, "Yukon North of Ordinary" , AirNorth President Joe Sparling says that " An upgrade to our jet fleet is on the horizon and we are including environmental considerations in our analysis alongside capital and operating costs". There are also three tables showing fuel savings between current fleet and "Newest Generation Jet" with a seat count of 160.
Talk on the very small streets in the Yukon is that AirNorth is looking very seriously at the A220, however, the 160 seat count is the maximum for the 300 according to wiki, so that piece of the puzzle fits.
Are there any slots available in the next couple of years for a new small customer? It seems that with some of the soft orders that they could squeeze in an order for 5?


I can't answer the slot availability but it looks like Airbus is sending the A223 to Yellowknife today https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... /#237f6d86

There is also the ability to take from a lessor. Not sure if GTLK would lease outside of Russia, but there are 6 immediately available through them.
 
airnorth
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:29 pm

Interesting....I wonder if they will also zip over to Whitehorse, YXY, to the main base and headquarters for AirNorth, of course that may also be too obvious. Personally I think this would be an amazing plane for them to replace their old 737 fleet, but dang, that would also be a lot of cash flow out the door.
 
T4thH
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:34 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
airnorth wrote:
I posted my musings in the wrong thread, so will re-post here, hopefully that is OK.
I will have to frame this differently now, as it is not really a slot availability question anymore, but I am genuinely curious if there is any other evidence of a possible order from this very small operator.

I have a long winded question about A220 slot availability, so I hope its OK to post this in the production/ delivery thread.
I keep hearing that AirNorth is going to upgrade its current fleet of 737 classics, consisting of 4 - 500's and 1 - 400, it looks like all of the Jurassic 200's are now gone. In the current issue of their inflight magazine, "Yukon North of Ordinary" , AirNorth President Joe Sparling says that " An upgrade to our jet fleet is on the horizon and we are including environmental considerations in our analysis alongside capital and operating costs". There are also three tables showing fuel savings between current fleet and "Newest Generation Jet" with a seat count of 160.
Talk on the very small streets in the Yukon is that AirNorth is looking very seriously at the A220, however, the 160 seat count is the maximum for the 300 according to wiki, so that piece of the puzzle fits.
Are there any slots available in the next couple of years for a new small customer? It seems that with some of the soft orders that they could squeeze in an order for 5?


I can't answer the slot availability but it looks like Airbus is sending the A223 to Yellowknife today https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... /#237f6d86

There is also the ability to take from a lessor. Not sure if GTLK would lease outside of Russia, but there are 6 immediately available through them.

Yes. some early slots have been available for last small orders for the Montreal FAL. The last ordered by small companies got slots in a 12 month to 18 month time frame. It is likely, that few early slots will be available also for other small customers in Montreal. Pretty sure, with the big orders by Delta, Moxy and Jet Blue, this will be a little bit different in Mobile.

As example.
Air Vanatu, ordered 2x A220-100 and 2x A220-300 in Feb-2019 and will receive the first A220-300 (no 55089 in around end of May/Jun/Jul-2020. It is possible, they will get the A220-100 earlier (50060). This can be calculated, as the last Air Egypt A220-300 (55091) will be delivered per schedule announcement in Jul-2019.
Air Austral has ordered 3x A220-300 in Nov-2019, they will get the first A220-300 according press release/announcement in Nov-2020 (55106)
Czech airline has ordered 4x A220-300 in Oct-2019 and will get the first A220-300 around the same time, it is just one Montreal A220-300 slot number behind the first from Air Austral (55109).

https://www.abcdlist.nl/cseries/cseries.html
 
T4thH
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:48 pm

airnorth wrote:
Interesting....I wonder if they will also zip over to Whitehorse, YXY, to the main base and headquarters for AirNorth, of course that may also be too obvious. Personally I think this would be an amazing plane for them to replace their old 737 fleet, but dang, that would also be a lot of cash flow out the door.


Or they have just done a cold test. It was the coldest night since long with around -40°C.
Airbus has not missed this excellent chance to test this unique conditions and to park the jet outside during this coldest night.
https://twitter.com/MikeyMcBryan/status/1216790706536226816
 
strfyr51
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:13 am

lightsaber wrote:
TObound wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
WN is also rumored to be looking for a better deal from Boeing in the future by “discussing” something they’re 99 percent unlikely to do. Unless and this is a big unless, a new era at WN is about to dawn.


There are times I wish airlines like Southwest, Ryanair and easyJet were told to take a hike by the OEMs. Refuse to bid. Force them to pay more. But that would help the competitor OEM....

They buy aircraft in bulk, so they receive bulk discounts. If Southwest were to buy the A220, it would dramatically boost interest by other airlines. Because WN and DL buy so many used narrowbody aircraft, leasing companies would order many due to the perceived reduced risk.

For Airbus to break into WN is worth a fortune. They must bid. EasyJet was the largest A319 buyer, why wouldn't Airbus try to sell A220-300s in bulk to them?

Ignore the largest buyers in a segment, not a sound business strategy. What would the OEMs gain?

I have hope EasyJet, FlyDubai, and Indigo will buy A220s. But unlikely this year.

I hope the Asia tour produces sales. The Korean and Thai LCCs would make good money on the A220, but are their sales campaigns mature enough? I suspect they might be 2020 buyers.


My concern is what other active sales campaigns might close in 2019. Spirit, IAG, Aeromexico seem to be the big ones with the best potential. I'm equally happy if the E2 wins as first, I am a Pratt fan.

Lightsaber

were WN to Order the A220? You can damn sure Bet they'd get near as good a deal as Delta got. They order in Bulk and they can demand their price. And? Get it!
 
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SQ22
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Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:49 am

Link to previous thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1428303
 
tphuang
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:44 pm

https://leehamnews.com/2020/01/16/air-c ... ice-today/
This bit here shows how great the A220-300 economics are.

A220 economics better than A320neo, 737-8

Scherer said the A220-300 economics are better than the slightly larger A320neo and Boeing 737-8. The A220-300 is directly competitive with the Airbus A319neo and the Boeing 737-7.

Air Canada configures the -300 with 137 passengers in business and coach classes. The typical two-class configuration for the A320neo is about 156 seats. The 737-8’s typical configuration is about 172 seats.

Still, Scherer said the seat mile costs of the -300 are up to 5% better than these two airplanes. The trip costs are 7%-10% better, he said on the sidelines of the event.


I've said this before, but you are getting an aircraft with fewer seat and lower CASM than A320NEO. Aside from the additional fleet complexity. This is a no-brainer for airlines to get. And that doesn't even factor in the possible higher RASM affect of A220.
 
airnorth
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:54 am

Sounds like Air Canada could be interested in a larger version of the A220, or one with more legs.

https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... t-thursday

At least that is what Mark Galardo vice president of network planning for Air Canada is quoted as saying.

"While it’s too early to say if Air Canada will exercise its options to order 30 more A220s, the carrier would consider a longer-range version of the plane or one with more seats, Galardo said.

“We will study it. It’s not a no,” he said. “If it makes sense, perhaps it becomes an option. At this time it’s premature.”"
 
Amiga500
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:57 am

Shocking that airlines are interested in more range given certain anet sages were insistent the added range was of no additional value. [/sarcasm]
 
wrongwayup
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:42 pm

airnorth wrote:
Sounds like Air Canada could be interested in a larger version of the A220, or one with more legs.

https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... t-thursday

At least that is what Mark Galardo vice president of network planning for Air Canada is quoted as saying.

"While it’s too early to say if Air Canada will exercise its options to order 30 more A220s, the carrier would consider a longer-range version of the plane or one with more seats, Galardo said.

“We will study it. It’s not a no,” he said. “If it makes sense, perhaps it becomes an option. At this time it’s premature.”"


According to the TC aircraft registry, C-GROV has an MTOW of 149,000lbm. The A220-300 is capable of up to something like 154,000, so another 5,000lbm fuel for the same payload... that should add a fair bit of range!
 
krisyyz
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:39 am

Somewhat unrelated, but why is AC’s A223 cruising at such low altitude? I’ve never seen her fly above FL280. Is this related to the climb N1 issue?

KrisYYZ
 
voodoo
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:27 am

Watched an Egyptair A220 delivering across the pond via Ostend last night. Was cruising at 37k. Air Baltic and Delta are similarly above 30k. The lower altitudes for AC’s C-GROV are a puzzle if others are not.
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mxaxai
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:17 pm

An Air Baltic A220 was delivered at FL410, nonstop Mirabel - Riga in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKdTCqt60s
There doesn't seem to be a general altitude limitation.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:42 pm

mxaxai wrote:
An Air Baltic A220 was delivered at FL410, nonstop Mirabel - Riga in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKdTCqt60s
There doesn't seem to be a general altitude limitation.


Fantastic video, thanks for posting. I've been watching them do nonstop delivery flights for 2 years and always wondered about the performance. Of course, this is at the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload, so not really representative of actual airline operations. Having said all that, its still impressive that the airplane can fly 8 hours on normal internal fuel (no aux tanks).
 
SteelChair
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:03 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
TObound wrote:

There are times I wish airlines like Southwest, Ryanair and easyJet were told to take a hike by the OEMs. Refuse to bid. Force them to pay more. But that would help the competitor OEM....

They buy aircraft in bulk, so they receive bulk discounts. If Southwest were to buy the A220, it would dramatically boost interest by other airlines. Because WN and DL buy so many used narrowbody aircraft, leasing companies would order many due to the perceived reduced risk.

For Airbus to break into WN is worth a fortune. They must bid. EasyJet was the largest A319 buyer, why wouldn't Airbus try to sell A220-300s in bulk to them?

Ignore the largest buyers in a segment, not a sound business strategy. What would the OEMs gain?

I have hope EasyJet, FlyDubai, and Indigo will buy A220s. But unlikely this year.

I hope the Asia tour produces sales. The Korean and Thai LCCs would make good money on the A220, but are their sales campaigns mature enough? I suspect they might be 2020 buyers.


My concern is what other active sales campaigns might close in 2019. Spirit, IAG, Aeromexico seem to be the big ones with the best potential. I'm equally happy if the E2 wins as first, I am a Pratt fan.

Lightsaber

were WN to Order the A220? You can damn sure Bet they'd get near as good a deal as Delta got. They order in Bulk and they can demand their price. And? Get it!


While we don't know commercial terms, one would think that later customers would not get as good a deal as earlier customers. Having said that, Airbus might be willing to price very aggressively to new customers in order to get come into the Airbus family with an entry level jet. The A220 gives them a world beating entry level offering imho. I still see Southwest as a longshot.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm

I'm very curious about the Asia/Oceana sales tour and if sales happened:
https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... ia-pacific

Of course Qantas is getting attention (Fokker and later 717 replacement). I'm also curious if any orders from the multitude of other airlines shown the A220 occur too.


SteelChair wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
They buy aircraft in bulk, so they receive bulk discounts. If Southwest were to buy the A220, it would dramatically boost interest by other airlines. Because WN and DL buy so many used narrowbody aircraft, leasing companies would order many due to the perceived reduced risk.

For Airbus to break into WN is worth a fortune. They must bid. EasyJet was the largest A319 buyer, why wouldn't Airbus try to sell A220-300s in bulk to them?

Ignore the largest buyers in a segment, not a sound business strategy. What would the OEMs gain?

I have hope EasyJet, FlyDubai, and Indigo will buy A220s. But unlikely this year.

I hope the Asia tour produces sales. The Korean and Thai LCCs would make good money on the A220, but are their sales campaigns mature enough? I suspect they might be 2020 buyers.


My concern is what other active sales campaigns might close in 2019. Spirit, IAG, Aeromexico seem to be the big ones with the best potential. I'm equally happy if the E2 wins as first, I am a Pratt fan.

Lightsaber

were WN to Order the A220? You can damn sure Bet they'd get near as good a deal as Delta got. They order in Bulk and they can demand their price. And? Get it!


While we don't know commercial terms, one would think that later customers would not get as good a deal as earlier customers. Having said that, Airbus might be willing to price very aggressively to new customers in order to get come into the Airbus family with an entry level jet. The A220 gives them a world beating entry level offering imho. I still see Southwest as a longshot.

SouthWest is a hail Mary huge order. Of course Airbus wants them as a customer. No other deal could boost the A220 more. However, I do not think WN has updated their software, processes, and pilot contracts to purchase a new type. So I will hope for other orders.

At this point, a bunch of small airlines taking A220s from Leasing companies would be great news (I hope ALC finalizes their order).

Of course the WN order would boost the A220. Due to their history of buying used, it would spike sales to Leasing companies out of proportion to the order.

Lightsaber
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YULobserver
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:44 pm

krisyyz wrote:
Somewhat unrelated, but why is AC’s A223 cruising at such low altitude? I’ve never seen her fly above FL280. Is this related to the climb N1 issue?

KrisYYZ


THey have not secured RVSM approval for the type yet.
 
astuteman
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:28 pm

SteelChair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
An Air Baltic A220 was delivered at FL410, nonstop Mirabel - Riga in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKdTCqt60s
There doesn't seem to be a general altitude limitation.


Fantastic video, thanks for posting. I've been watching them do nonstop delivery flights for 2 years and always wondered about the performance. Of course, this is at the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload, so not really representative of actual airline operations. Having said all that, its still impressive that the airplane can fly 8 hours on normal internal fuel (no aux tanks).


I was fortunate enough to get this video recommended to me about a day or so before it was linked in this thread. Great video.

As a point of order, this isn't even remotely near the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload.
If you watch the video carefully, they take off with the complementary "full tank of gas" of 17.5 tonnes from the manufacturer, and land in Riga still with 4 tonnes of fuel aboard, having used 13.5 tonnes over the 8 hour flight.
Cruise fuel consumption was about 1,700kg per hour

Admittedly they only had about 6 people aboard, but still a deeply impressive performance.
If you look at the comments, a CRJ700 pilot comments that this is about the same fuel burn as his "office" on a plane nearly twice the size.
Pretty eye-opening

Rgds
 
T4thH
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:35 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm very curious about the Asia/Oceana sales tour and if sales happened:
https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... ia-pacific

Of course Qantas is getting attention (Fokker and later 717 replacement). I'm also curious if any orders from the multitude of other airlines shown the A220 occur too.

Lightsaber


Qantas is one of 4 airlines, who have clearly stated highest interest + as it seems a governmental program for their 6 airlines (comparable to as example China)....and I still have to find out, why there have been 2 stops in India. When I am back home, I am still in office.

Please note, I will not provide many links, only key words and few examples. Else I will end up in several DIN A4 pages....I just do not want to waste so much time.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:08 pm

YULobserver wrote:
krisyyz wrote:
Somewhat unrelated, but why is AC’s A223 cruising at such low altitude? I’ve never seen her fly above FL280. Is this related to the climb N1 issue?

KrisYYZ


THey have not secured RVSM approval for the type yet.


interesting - so this approval for an airline and aircraft (like ETOPS, I guess) and not for the aircraft itself?
 
SteelChair
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:52 pm

astuteman wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
An Air Baltic A220 was delivered at FL410, nonstop Mirabel - Riga in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lKdTCqt60s
There doesn't seem to be a general altitude limitation.


Fantastic video, thanks for posting. I've been watching them do nonstop delivery flights for 2 years and always wondered about the performance. Of course, this is at the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload, so not really representative of actual airline operations. Having said all that, its still impressive that the airplane can fly 8 hours on normal internal fuel (no aux tanks).


I was fortunate enough to get this video recommended to me about a day or so before it was linked in this thread. Great video.

As a point of order, this isn't even remotely near the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload.
If you watch the video carefully, they take off with the complementary "full tank of gas" of 17.5 tonnes from the manufacturer, and land in Riga still with 4 tonnes of fuel aboard, having used 13.5 tonnes over the 8 hour flight.
Cruise fuel consumption was about 1,700kg per hour

Admittedly they only had about 6 people aboard, but still a deeply impressive performance.
If you look at the comments, a CRJ700 pilot comments that this is about the same fuel burn as his "office" on a plane nearly twice the size.
Pretty eye-opening

Rgds


How much fuel would you have them land with? Landing with 4.0 when you are burning 1.7/hr at cruise means you can fly less than an hour and still maintain adequate reserves. You can't simply divide 4 by 1.7 and plan to fly to exhaustion.
 
TObound
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:57 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Shocking that airlines are interested in more range given certain anet sages were insistent the added range was of no additional value. [/sarcasm]


I still maintain that it's a rather small niche given how much range the 220 has and how much is still left to extracted from aero cleanup and PIPs. If the choice had to be made on where to invest the resources, I'd argue that building the 225 is far more important than the 223LR. I could see the case for the 223LR being a development point, en route to the 225 though. And it looks like Airbus is going this route. But even here I'm doubtful they really the 223LR. After some PIPs, the 3500nm A223 would probably yield a 3000nm A225.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm very curious about the Asia/Oceana sales tour and if sales happened:
https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... ia-pacific

Of course Qantas is getting attention (Fokker and later 717 replacement). I'm also curious if any orders from the multitude of other airlines shown the A220 occur too.


SteelChair wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
were WN to Order the A220? You can damn sure Bet they'd get near as good a deal as Delta got. They order in Bulk and they can demand their price. And? Get it!


While we don't know commercial terms, one would think that later customers would not get as good a deal as earlier customers. Having said that, Airbus might be willing to price very aggressively to new customers in order to get come into the Airbus family with an entry level jet. The A220 gives them a world beating entry level offering imho. I still see Southwest as a longshot.

SouthWest is a hail Mary huge order. Of course Airbus wants them as a customer. No other deal could boost the A220 more. However, I do not think WN has updated their software, processes, and pilot contracts to purchase a new type. So I will hope for other orders.

At this point, a bunch of small airlines taking A220s from Leasing companies would be great news (I hope ALC finalizes their order).

Of course the WN order would boost the A220. Due to their history of buying used, it would spike sales to Leasing companies out of proportion to the order.

Lightsaber


Forget WN. That's Lucy and the football. I want to see more existing operators re-up. I would love to see KE, LH, DL and AC exercise their options and order beyond them. I wanna see them win AM. I wanna see Hawaiian pick up 223s as their inter-island replacement. Those are all orders that would probably be worth more in the long run than WN, where they'd probably have to give them 400 birds at cost or lower to win and not actually broaden or reinforce their user base substantially. I actually really want to see Southwest's competitors get them plane and then wield it against WN. I'm rooting for Moxy, B6 and DL to deploy 400 A220s against WN over the next decade.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:11 am

TObound wrote:
I wanna see them win AM. I wanna see Hawaiian pick up 223s as their inter-island replacement.

AM is a big deal. I wonder as to their timeframe.

For Hawaiian, I believe the MRJ or E2-175 is a better fit (I assume the PW1200/1700G, as they will run cooler due to lower pressure ratios, will have faster turn times.

Airbus is a big player, they won't lowball WN. As I noted before, I prefer multiple small orders or leases at this juncture.

Lightsaber
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astuteman
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:33 am

SteelChair wrote:
astuteman wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Fantastic video, thanks for posting. I've been watching them do nonstop delivery flights for 2 years and always wondered about the performance. Of course, this is at the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload, so not really representative of actual airline operations. Having said all that, its still impressive that the airplane can fly 8 hours on normal internal fuel (no aux tanks).


I was fortunate enough to get this video recommended to me about a day or so before it was linked in this thread. Great video.

As a point of order, this isn't even remotely near the limits of the performance of the airplane with no payload.
If you watch the video carefully, they take off with the complementary "full tank of gas" of 17.5 tonnes from the manufacturer, and land in Riga still with 4 tonnes of fuel aboard, having used 13.5 tonnes over the 8 hour flight.
Cruise fuel consumption was about 1,700kg per hour

Admittedly they only had about 6 people aboard, but still a deeply impressive performance.
If you look at the comments, a CRJ700 pilot comments that this is about the same fuel burn as his "office" on a plane nearly twice the size.
Pretty eye-opening

Rgds


How much fuel would you have them land with? Landing with 4.0 when you are burning 1.7/hr at cruise means you can fly less than an hour and still maintain adequate reserves. You can't simply divide 4 by 1.7 and plan to fly to exhaustion.


I'm pretty sure that they calculated close to another 1 1/2 to 2 hours of flying with about 1t reserve, but I'd have to watch the video again to confirm.
They were pretty clear that they would have taken off with a lot less fuel for the trip if they were paying for it

Rgds
 
TObound
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:42 am

lightsaber wrote:
TObound wrote:
I wanna see them win AM. I wanna see Hawaiian pick up 223s as their inter-island replacement.

AM is a big deal. I wonder as to their timeframe.

For Hawaiian, I believe the MRJ or E2-175 is a better fit (I assume the PW1200/1700G, as they will run cooler due to lower pressure ratios, will have faster turn times.

Airbus is a big player, they won't lowball WN. As I noted before, I prefer multiple small orders or leases at this juncture.

Lightsaber


I think AM is probably going E2. Their current E1 fleet probably biases them that way. And Boeing/Embraer have to be hungry for this. I'll be shocked if Airbus wins this.

The only way I see any interest in the 220 is if they are interested in upgauging to a 130 seater, increasing J seat offerings, or need the range at their regional. I'm also wondering if their regional is scope limited to 100 seats. That would pretty much guarantee the E2-190 the win. I get the DL factor, but I don't think it impacts the final choice as much as the math on operating costs and any scope limits.

With Hawaiian, I think Airbus may well get a rare A319NEO sale or maybe Airbus cuts them a decent enough deal on some 320NEOs. The MRJ and E2-175 seem to small at first blush. And an extra type has to be tough on a small airline. Keeping commonality with the 321NEOs has gotta be important to them.

The unique circumstances and high bar the 220 with these two carriers is what makes these two sales campaigns super interesting to me. Winning them would definitely speak volumes about how competitive the 220 really is.
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:13 pm

NAC (Nordic Aviation Capital) has finalized the 20x A220 order. LOI/MOU was during the Paris Air Show. It was in Airbus listing already in Dec-2019, but now official stated.
https://simpleflying.com/nordic-aviation-capital-airbus-a220-order/

And official Airbus source.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/01/nordic-aviation-capital-finalised-order-for-20-a220-family-aircraft.html

6x A220-100
14x A220-300
(EDIT and of course, it can be also seen on the Dec-2019 Airbus order list)

from regular well informed source (abcdlist)
https://www.abcdlist.nl/cseries/cseries.html

Greetings to Airbus and Canada.
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:42 pm

600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
 
oschkosch
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:49 pm

fcogafa wrote:
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
because of...? Source?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
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T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:58 pm

Some additional news regarding by the president of Congo prior announced order for A220. Till now nothing from Airbus.
Original source from Dec-2019, president of Congo announcing order, use translator.
https://7sur7.cd/2019/12/14/rdc-congo-airways-va-acquerir-8-avions-neufs-dont-2-de-type-220-300-dairbus-de-132

Now: Already the delivery dates are announced.
https://blueswandaily.com/advancing-africa-an-update-on-latest-travel-developments-across-the-continent-4/
Congo Airways has outlined its fleet plans for the coming years. It will initially wet lease two aircraft to cover the removal of two A320s to undergo C checks; wet lease one A320 or Embraer E190 in 3Q2020 to support operations; acquire two E175s for delivery in Dec-2020; add two turboprop aircraft in 2021; and four A220-300 aircraft for delivery in 3Q2021, 4Q2021, 3Q2022 and 4Q2022.


Only headline: rest is behind paywall.
Congo Airways to add first A220s in 2H21

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/85649-congo-airways-to-add-first-a220s-in-2h21

Perhaps a leasing contract, till now not official announced?
 
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PW100
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:59 pm

oschkosch wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
because of...? Source?


There is only one way to make money on this sort of (early) productions runs: program accounting. And Airbus (mostly) doesn't do that . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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Polot
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:33 pm

PW100 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
fcogafa wrote:

shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
because of...? Source?


There is only one way to make money on this sort of (early) productions runs: program accounting. And Airbus (mostly) doesn't do that . . .

Program accounting doesn't make you money, it just allows you to report profits. You still lose money on the frames.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:41 pm

fcogafa wrote:
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those


oschkosch wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
because of...? Source?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


As I understand the program won't turn cash positive until production is boosted beyond rate 10.

This should happen around 2025, it's only a matter of time.
Good moaning!
 
TObound
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300


shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those


oschkosch wrote:
fcogafa wrote:

shame they won't make any money on most if not all of those
because of...? Source?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


As I understand the program won't turn cash positive until production is boosted beyond rate 10.

This should happen around 2025, it's only a matter of time.


The program should be be pretty close to rate 10 in 2-3 years. Mirabel itself won't be though.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:22 pm

The program will exit its cash eating initial learning curve by 2025 when deliveries shall be 150 to 160 aircraft per year


https://leehamnews.com/2020/02/13/airbu ... nce-costs/


Airbus foresees the break-even point occurring “in the middle of this decade


https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes ... 53.article
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:55 am

T4thH wrote:
NAC (Nordic Aviation Capital) has finalized the 20x A220 order. LOI/MOU was during the Paris Air Show. It was in Airbus listing already in Dec-2019, but now official stated.
https://simpleflying.com/nordic-aviation-capital-airbus-a220-order/

And official Airbus source.
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/01/nordic-aviation-capital-finalised-order-for-20-a220-family-aircraft.html

6x A220-100
14x A220-300
(EDIT and of course, it can be also seen on the Dec-2019 Airbus order list)

from regular well informed source (abcdlist)
https://www.abcdlist.nl/cseries/cseries.html

Greetings to Airbus and Canada.
600 on the net order list: 95 A220-100 and 505 A220-300.

Multiple leasing companies offering A220s at Farnborough. That should help spark new entrants.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:11 pm

Here we go with one lessor placement:

GTLK Europe leases three Airbus A220-300s to start-up African airline
Nigeria’s Green Africa Airways is to launch operations this year with aircraft leased from the Irish division of Russia’s State Transport Leasing Corporation


http://www.rusaviainsider.com/gtlk-europe-leases-three-airbus-a220-300s-to-start-up-african-airline/
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A343/346, A359, A380,AT4,AT7,B712, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9,B742/4,B752/3, B762/763,B772/77W,CR2/7/9/K,ER3/4,E70/75/90/95, F50/70/100,M11,L15,SF3,S20, AR8/1, 142/143,... 330.860 miles and counting.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:24 pm

I’m praying for a future UA order. Especially considering the large number of A-319’s and 737-700’s that will need to be replaced in the future. Plus our mechanics are already trained on Pratt and Whitney products.
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:03 am

Some additional news regarding the 30x A220-300 options of airBaltic. It was already prior stated by airBaltic CEO Gauss, if they will take the option, these 30x A220-300 will be based somewhere else in Europe. Now a new interview with CEO Gauss.

Scandinavia will become a key focus for hybrid airline airBaltic if it goes ahead with plans to buy 30 more A220-300s, according to CEO Martin Gauss.

Speaking to Routes, he said the airline would open four bases in the region at airports already served should it convert its existing aircraft options into a firm order.

“If we exercise the options—and the basis for that is if we successfully execute our current business plan—then we want to place these aircraft in Scandinavia at four different airports and then serve point-to-point routes from them,” Gauss said.

Gauss said a decision on ordering these aircraft is not expected until the end of 2021.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/289752/airbaltic-ceo-a220-order-could-spur-scandinavia-growth/
 
T4thH
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:17 am

The next A220 sales tour will start end of Mar to Apr-2020. It will be a short tour. Regarding Coronavirus, if the FIDAE in Santiago, Chile, will be cancelled, it is likely also the sales tour will not done. The second Airbus A220-300 prototype (55002, C-FFDO) will be used, which was already on duty during the 29-Jul-2019 to 06-Aug-2019 Asia sales tour.

Latin America/Brazil tour. These flights will be additional part of the A220 certification by ANAC (Brazil), especially for landing on short runways (São Paulo-Congonhas). Visited/participating airlines: Azul, LATAM, possibly GOL and Copa Airlines (and possibly others)

First, it will visit the FIDAE (30-Mar to 5-Apr-2020) in Santiago, Chile (seems only for the first days)

02-Apr-2020 Viracopas (Campinas/Sao Paulo), visiting Azul, on same day to Sao Paulo-Congonhas and back to Viracopas. In Congonhas, they will visit LATAM and possibly GOL.

on 04-Apr, from Viracopas to Tocument International in Panama to visit Copa Airlines.
https://www.aeroflap.com.br/airbus-a220-pode-passar-pelo-brasil-em-turne-pela-america-latina/
Use Google Translator.
 
T4thH
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:51 pm

T4thH wrote:
The next A220 sales tour will start end of Mar to Apr-2020. It will be a short tour. Regarding Coronavirus, if the FIDAE in Santiago, Chile, will be cancelled, it is likely also the sales tour will not done. The second Airbus A220-300 prototype (55002, C-FFDO) will be used, which was already on duty during the 29-Jul-2019 to 06-Aug-2019 Asia sales tour.

Latin America/Brazil tour. These flights will be additional part of the A220 certification by ANAC (Brazil), especially for landing on short runways (São Paulo-Congonhas). Visited/participating airlines: Azul, LATAM, possibly GOL and Copa Airlines (and possibly others)

First, it will visit the FIDAE (30-Mar to 5-Apr-2020) in Santiago, Chile (seems only for the first days)

02-Apr-2020 Viracopas (Campinas/Sao Paulo), visiting Azul, on same day to Sao Paulo-Congonhas and back to Viracopas. In Congonhas, they will visit LATAM and possibly GOL.

on 04-Apr, from Viracopas to Tocument International in Panama to visit Copa Airlines.
https://www.aeroflap.com.br/airbus-a220-pode-passar-pelo-brasil-em-turne-pela-america-latina/
Use Google Translator.


Just another source regarding the new A220 Latin America sales tour, independent of the former one, already mentioned.
https://www.aeroin.net/airbus-a220-vira-ao-brasil-fazer-demonstracao-para-empresas-aereas-nacionais/
 
Jetsouth
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:59 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:05 pm

I thought Luxair was seriously considering the A220 some time ago, including ones to be used for their route to London City Airport. Doesn't seem to be anything the news recently if they are going with the A's or the E2's. Anyone have any updates?
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:32 am

Jetsouth wrote:
I thought Luxair was seriously considering the A220 some time ago, including ones to be used for their route to London City Airport. Doesn't seem to be anything the news recently if they are going with the A's or the E2's. Anyone have any updates?

Mid to long term they plan to replace the 11x DHC-8-400 by either the A220 or the E2 for the regional market. They will further fly with B737 as they will need them for their leisure part of the airline. But this depends on the further demand and development of the market.
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 2575
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Re: A220 sales tour and sales campaigns, 2019

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:11 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm very curious about the Asia/Oceana sales tour and if sales happened:
https://www.aerotime.aero/aerotime.team ... ia-pacific

Of course Qantas is getting attention (Fokker and later 717 replacement). I'm also curious if any orders from the multitude of other airlines shown the A220 occur too.


SteelChair wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
were WN to Order the A220? You can damn sure Bet they'd get near as good a deal as Delta got. They order in Bulk and they can demand their price. And? Get it!


While we don't know commercial terms, one would think that later customers would not get as good a deal as earlier customers. Having said that, Airbus might be willing to price very aggressively to new customers in order to get come into the Airbus family with an entry level jet. The A220 gives them a world beating entry level offering imho. I still see Southwest as a longshot.

SouthWest is a hail Mary huge order. Of course Airbus wants them as a customer. No other deal could boost the A220 more. However, I do not think WN has updated their software, processes, and pilot contracts to purchase a new type. So I will hope for other orders.

At this point, a bunch of small airlines taking A220s from Leasing companies would be great news (I hope ALC finalizes their order).

Of course the WN order would boost the A220. Due to their history of buying used, it would spike sales to Leasing companies out of proportion to the order.

Lightsaber


Considering the WN pilots are flying reduced schedules due to the grounding of the MAX, they may be receptive to the idea of introducing a new fleet type. Had the pilots allowed different pilot pools to allow continued flying of 737 classics, WN could have pulled 737-300's out of the desert to maintain schedules while the MAX is grounded.

If WN orders the A220, the 737-7 MAX is dead. It would significantly decrease the total orders for the 737 MAX as the the 737-7 was eventually going to be the most numerous type in the WN fleet.
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:44 pm

The zombie is dead, the zombie is dead, long live the zombie....

According news below, the long dead 16x A220 order by SaudiGulf will now also be officially terminated. It has been converted to the already announced 10x A320 Neo order, performed in Nov-2019. This order is already long time dead, but is still in the books.

http://futuredxb.com/saudigulf-airlines-confirms-a220-order-termination/
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/76698-saudigulf-airlines-to-axe-a220-order-report

Highly doubtful or already dead orders:-> zombies
10x A220-300 Gulf Air (no agreement found)
10x A220-100 Odyssey Airlines (Airline has never started)
Highly unlikely 5x A220-300 Iraqi Airways. (Iraq government does not want)
 
Jetsouth
Posts: 369
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Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:57 pm

Does anyone know if the following are zombie orders also?
-Lease Corporation International-firm order for 20
-Macquarie- firm order for 40


T4thH wrote:
The zombie is dead, the zombie is dead, long live the zombie....

According news below, the long dead 16x A220 order by SaudiGulf will now also be officially terminated. It has been converted to the already announced 10x A320 Neo order, performed in Nov-2019. This order is already long time dead, but is still in the books.

http://futuredxb.com/saudigulf-airlines-confirms-a220-order-termination/
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/76698-saudigulf-airlines-to-axe-a220-order-report

Highly doubtful or already dead orders:-> zombies
10x A220-300 Gulf Air (no agreement found)
10x A220-100 Odyssey Airlines (Airline has never started)
Highly unlikely 5x A220-300 Iraqi Airways. (Iraq government does not want)
 
T4thH
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:17 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Does anyone know if the following are zombie orders also?
-Lease Corporation International-firm order for 20
-Macquarie- firm order for 40


T4thH wrote:
The zombie is dead, the zombie is dead, long live the zombie....

According news below, the long dead 16x A220 order by SaudiGulf will now also be officially terminated. It has been converted to the already announced 10x A320 Neo order, performed in[url][/url] Nov-2019. This order is already long time dead, but is still in the books.

http://futuredxb.com/saudigulf-airlines-confirms-a220-order-termination/
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/76698-saudigulf-airlines-to-axe-a220-order-report

Highly doubtful or already dead orders:-> zombies
10x A220-300 Gulf Air (no agreement found)
10x A220-100 Odyssey Airlines (Airline has never started)
Highly unlikely 5x A220-300 Iraqi Airways. (Iraq government does not want)


LCI is easy to answer. No zombie.
A220-100
https://www.lciaviation.com/fixed-wing/fleet/airbus-a220-100/?backTo=overview
A220-300
https://www.lciaviation.com/fixed-wing/fleet/airbus-a220-300/?backTo=overview

The Macquarie Group is really big and they are still involved in aircraft leasing. 2015 they have bought the aircraft lease portfolio from AWAS Aviation Capital Limited for 4 billion $. There is no reason to believe, that this is a zombie order.

So NO and NO.

EDIT:
We look forward to working with Airbus to place these aircraft and, following the recent closing of its partnership with Bombardier, the 40 A220-300s already in our order book.”

https://www.macquarie.com/ch/en/about/news/2018/macquarie-airfinance-orders-20-a320neo-aircraft.html
And the portfolio of Macquarie air finance:
https://www.macquarie.com/us/corporate/asset-finance/aircraft

So no, it is not a zombie. Long live the zombie.
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:23 pm

Jetsouth wrote:
Does anyone know if the following are zombie orders also?
-Lease Corporation International-firm order for 20
-Macquarie- firm order for 40


LCI was among the first orders for the CSeries back in the day, but a lot has happened since then. They've exited the passenger aircraft leasing market completely - their current fleet is a couple 747-400Fs and a fleet of helicopters. It wouldn't surprise me to see them convert some portion of their order for A220s into a bunch of Airbus Helicopters instead.
 
T4thH
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:45 pm

T4thH wrote:
T4thH wrote:
The next A220 sales tour will start end of Mar to Apr-2020. It will be a short tour. Regarding Coronavirus, if the FIDAE in Santiago, Chile, will be cancelled, it is likely also the sales tour will not done. The second Airbus A220-300 prototype (55002, C-FFDO) will be used, which was already on duty during the 29-Jul-2019 to 06-Aug-2019 Asia sales tour.

Latin America/Brazil tour. These flights will be additional part of the A220 certification by ANAC (Brazil), especially for landing on short runways (São Paulo-Congonhas). Visited/participating airlines: Azul, LATAM, possibly GOL and Copa Airlines (and possibly others)

First, it will visit the FIDAE (30-Mar to 5-Apr-2020) in Santiago, Chile (seems only for the first days)

02-Apr-2020 Viracopas (Campinas/Sao Paulo), visiting Azul, on same day to Sao Paulo-Congonhas and back to Viracopas. In Congonhas, they will visit LATAM and possibly GOL.

on 04-Apr, from Viracopas to Tocument International in Panama to visit Copa Airlines.
https://www.aeroflap.com.br/airbus-a220-pode-passar-pelo-brasil-em-turne-pela-america-latina/
Use Google Translator.


Just another source regarding the new A220 Latin America sales tour, independent of the former one, already mentioned.
https://www.aeroin.net/airbus-a220-vira-ao-brasil-fazer-demonstracao-para-empresas-aereas-nacionais/

South America sales tour of the A220 seems to be cancelled or deferred to a later date.
https://twitter.com/RicardoDelpiano/status/1238168148765028356

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