Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Skywatcher
Posts: 889
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:26 pm

I would say there is no way in a million years that a Brazilian airline would purchase a BBD aircraft. Maybe now that it's owned by Airbus maybe a 1% chance?

This is despite the fact that AC purchased the EMB-190 and 175.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:46 pm

Let us recap sales campaigns in stasis:
Aeromexico. Is looking to replace Embraer E1 fleet: https://simpleflying.com/aeromexico-reg ... er-e2-195/
This replacement of 10 E175 and 47 E190 will be majorly contested. Personally, I think held off by 2 years. A major consideration will have to be given to MRO servicing. AeroMexico provides significant MRO service to Delta and Delta will perform PW1500G maintenance work. It could go either way, we'll find out probably in 2 years.
Although, if you look at the prior thread, we started talking about AeroMexico 8 months ago. They'll get better terms now.


TAP Portugal: The Neeleman partial ownership is an interesting tidbit. Because Breeze's viability must be questioned, this order could go either way. If Breeze continues, I would think the A220 has the advantage. If not, then Neeleman would have better economics of scale on the E2-195. This will be a fascinating order. Again, probably held off for 2 years.
https://www.airway1.com/tap-air-portuga ... a220-jets/

Qantas:
Looking to replace 75 737s, 20 717s, 17 F100s, and 45 Q-200/300/400 turboprops.
This is not a winner take all order. QF already orders A321NEOs, but will buy more NEOs, or MAX, and possibly a 3rd type. This is actually the one order that could go with both types.

IAG:
We had quite a thread on this A220 vs. E2 competition. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1424001&start=200
Pushed off, but possibly a big order of 2021.

I believe no longer any chance of a SouthWest order. Any new aircraft will have to be the MAX (once it returns to service).

There will be no Farnborough air show this year. :cry2: This means ALC and other leasing companies will have another obstacle to selling. I was very excited last year about this opportunity. This year, I think will be a lost year for aircraft sales.

But thankfully, the A220 is in a good enough position to make it to 2021 and win sales.
I maintain my opinion every A220 sales campaign will be bid against the E2, if for no other reason than to negotiate better pricing. But the same is true of every E2 sales campaign.

While the timeframe has been pushed out, AeroMexico, TAP Portugal, and Qantas will be the best chances near term for mid size orders.

The question is, will EasyJet drop the current A320NEO orders and return for an A220 vs. E2 campaign?
Will FlyDubai go forward with a smaller plane?
Will Qatar return to looking at the type?

Eventually KE will recover, but it will be 3+ years, in my opinion, until they order. Same with Korean ULCCs.

But Thailand will recover earlier. Perhaps one (or more) of their LCCs will sign up for the little A220?

Governments will print money to help restart industry when this is over. For the A220, Canada, USA (Pratt and other vendors), and EU (Airbus) will play a role in financing.


We can debate for the next few months, but that is all it will be. The next order will be on excellent terms.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5304
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:18 pm

At this point, I think the most important thing for airbus do in North America is to make sure delta and JetBlue don’t defer any of their orders. Aside from that, the start time of breeze is also in doubt. If you have two solid North American Airlines operating it, then a220 will do well here long term.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:01 am

tphuang wrote:
At this point, I think the most important thing for airbus do in North America is to make sure delta and JetBlue don’t defer any of their orders. Aside from that, the start time of breeze is also in doubt. If you have two solid North American Airlines operating it, then a220 will do well here long term.

Delta, JetBlue, and Air Canada will all differ. So they will eventually have 3 solid North American airlines.

But do not forget Swiss/Lufthansa and Air France. AirBaltic looks like a survivor giving enough breath.

To sell, and aircraft needs economy of scale. There are currently 3 engine MRO locations: Pratt (USA), MTU (Germany, EU), and sometime in the future Delta (USA). I'm not sure on airframe MRO. Since Delta uses AeroMexico for other aircraft, I'd bet Delta will nudge them toward an A220 purchase.

Flight simulator training is also needed. Flight Safety on speculation set up near Gatwick. Then another in Frankfurt. AirBaltic in Riga. AirCanada also bought a simulator. JetBlue ordered for Ft. Lauderdale and of course Mirabel. I'm not aware of any Asia flight simulator, but perhaps I missed it.

The A220 already has amazing support. They are going to be fine.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TObound
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
At this point, I think the most important thing for airbus do in North America is to make sure delta and JetBlue don’t defer any of their orders. Aside from that, the start time of breeze is also in doubt. If you have two solid North American Airlines operating it, then a220 will do well here long term.


Every program is going to get deferrals. The current situation is unprecedented after all. The question, then, becomes relative. Who gets more or less cancellations and deferrals?

I am going to suggest that the A220 is going to do well. We're easily looking at a decade of lost pax growth. And probably half a decade of lower traffic than 2019. In this environment, the size and versatility of the A220 looks very attractive.

They've locked up some blue chip airlines too. Delta, JetBlue and Air Canada in North America. Korean in Asia. Lufthansa and AFKL groups in Europe. EgyptAir in the Middle East. Latin America, Africa and Australia are the last three markets left where they need a solid blue chip customer. And maybe another large customer or two in Asia. They are well on their way.
 
UA444
Posts: 2997
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:03 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:13 pm

Long hoped UAL would order this plane. I’ve flown on DL’s and they’re great. Way nicer than any 737.
 
zerogt
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:50 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:29 am

[quote]There are currently 3 engine MRO locations: Pratt (USA), MTU (Germany, EU), and sometime in the future Delta (USA)./quote

The MTU Shop in Germany does only MRO on the PW1100.

The PW1500 should be done by EME located in Poland.
It's an Jointventure between Lufthansa and MTU founded for PW1000 Family MRO.

Right now the PW1100 MRO is done in the Hanover Facility. While it was originally planed to give the hole PW1000G MRO to the Shop in Poland it now seems that their will be some PW1100 MRO in Hanover due to the high demand.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:15 pm

zerogt wrote:
There are currently 3 engine MRO locations: Pratt (USA), MTU (Germany, EU), and sometime in the future Delta (USA)./quote

The MTU Shop in Germany does only MRO on the PW1100.

The PW1500 should be done by EME located in Poland.
It's an Jointventure between Lufthansa and MTU founded for PW1000 Family MRO.

Right now the PW1100 MRO is done in the Hanover Facility. While it was originally planed to give the hole PW1000G MRO to the Shop in Poland it now seems that their will be some PW1100 MRO in Hanover due to the high demand.

Thank you. The fact MTU is doing a JV in Poland does not change my main point, the A220 has, outside of Asia, established economy of scale in services needed to kickstart future sales once we are the other side of this virus crises.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TObound
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:51 pm

@lightsaber

How many of these campaigns do you think are still active with the Covid crisis? I would think pretty much all of them are off for at least a year.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3852
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:22 pm

flightsaber wrote:
Qantas:
Looking to replace 75 737s, 20 717s, 17 F100s, and 45 Q-200/300/400 turboprops. This is not a winner take all order. Q already orders A321NEOs, but will buy more NEOs, or MAX, and possibly a 3rd type. This is actually the one order that could go with both types.


Weren't there major issues with the Embraers E1s Virgin Australia operated down under? What was the problrm for them?
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:19 am

[threeid] the[/threeid]
TObound wrote:
@lightsaber

How many of these campaigns do you think are still active with the Covid crisis? I would think pretty much all of them are off for at least a year.

As I noted, I expect delays of 2 to 3 years.

AirBaltic is negotiating for early deliveries. :faint:

I think IAG will order in 2021.

Looking at AeroMexico, that order might be delayed significantly more than I previously estimated as the need to upgauge is gone.

2020 will have few orders, all brutally discounted.

However, the really low cost per flight of the A220 gives some hope, but not a lot.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
T4thH
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:13 pm

New Brazilian regional airline in founding: Linhas Aéreas Itapemirim
Airline has now decided to fly with A220.
First they had planned to fly with turboprops, now they have changed to A220. Start of airline is scheduled for first half of 2021.

Airline will start with 10 planes (temporary: Airbus A319, Boeing 737-700 or Embraer E190/E195) and than move in 3 years to the A220. They want to grow to up to 50 planes in 5 years.
Source is in German: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/itapemirim-neue-brasilianische-regionalairline-will-airbus-a220
So use Google translator or something else.

A start up funding by the state own Abu Dhabi fund with 500 million $ is secured.
Source In English. https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/abu-dhabi-invests-in-new-airline-in-brazil
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:55 pm

Airbus saying A220-500 has potential, bur priority is conserving cash:
https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a220-500-priority/amp/

I think Airbus will market the A220-500, but not before 2025.

I know it is gloomy times. I haven't even heard one rumor of an A220 sales campaign. However, I believe when there is a partial recovery, the A220 is likely to be among the first orders.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TObound
Posts: 783
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:02 pm

I think this is decent news. The very fact that they are mentioning the 225 publicly says a lot.

By 2025.... Production facilities will be up. Supply base will be sorted out. They will have comfortably ramped up production and delivered several hundred aircraft. PIPs will do a lot of the legwork till then too. And when the time comes, Airbus could move very quickly, with announcement to EIS inside of two years. I expect customers will be taking delivery of 225s by 2027.
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1278
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:27 pm

But it is not news, someone asked a question of a regional head, Airbus didn't bring it up. The actual comment indicates that nothing has changed, quote:

“Under Bombardier, there was a lot of discussion about the -500 and the potential. That potential exists today, but it is not a priority. We have a lot on our plate. We are focused on cash preservation ourselves.”
 
Lavdumper69
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:08 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:50 pm

Once the Covid situation starts to improve worldwide, AeroMexico would be a prime candidate for new A220s. With their diverse route structure across North America and into Latin/South America, leveraging the range on either A220 100s or 300s would make far more sense than using less flexible E190s or 737NGs. Given its strategic ties with Delta, I imagine the A220 has the edge vs the E2. I could see a mixed order for 100s and 300s (and hopefully 500s at some point) given the different capacity requirements on various routes. Since the 300 seems to be the more popular version to order these days, I bet an airline could source smaller 100s at reasonable rates.

Considering the highly competitive nature of the LCC market in Mexico, AeroMexico NEEDS the fuel efficiency advantage that the A220 offers! And if AeroMexico wants to be closely associated with a world class airline like Delta, the passenger comfort/ergonomics offered by the A220 would be appreciated by connecting passengers.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20253
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:42 pm

Lavdumper69 wrote:
Once the Covid situation starts to improve worldwide, AeroMexico would be a prime candidate for new A220s. With their diverse route structure across North America and into Latin/South America, leveraging the range on either A220 100s or 300s would make far more sense than using less flexible E190s or 737NGs. Given its strategic ties with Delta, I imagine the A220 has the edge vs the E2. I could see a mixed order for 100s and 300s (and hopefully 500s at some point) given the different capacity requirements on various routes. Since the 300 seems to be the more popular version to order these days, I bet an airline could source smaller 100s at reasonable rates.

Considering the highly competitive nature of the LCC market in Mexico, AeroMexico NEEDS the fuel efficiency advantage that the A220 offers! And if AeroMexico wants to be closely associated with a world class airline like Delta, the passenger comfort/ergonomics offered by the A220 would be appreciated by connecting passengers.

On the other side of this, I expect we'll revisit the major sales campaigns that were in work, in the order I think they could restart (my best guess):
1. AeroMexico
2. Qantas
3. TAP Portugal
4. Korean Air
5. IAG


Unfortunately, not only was there no Farnborough, there isn't enough demand to order new at this time.

Lightsaber

Ps, I have a post above with more details. I still believe we must wait until 2021 for orders.
Winter is coming.
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:06 am

Lavdumper69 wrote:
Once the Covid situation starts to improve worldwide, AeroMexico would be a prime candidate for new A220s. With their diverse route structure across North America and into Latin/South America, leveraging the range on either A220 100s or 300s would make far more sense than using less flexible E190s or 737NGs. Given its strategic ties with Delta, I imagine the A220 has the edge vs the E2. I could see a mixed order for 100s and 300s (and hopefully 500s at some point) given the different capacity requirements on various routes. Since the 300 seems to be the more popular version to order these days, I bet an airline could source smaller 100s at reasonable rates.

Considering the highly competitive nature of the LCC market in Mexico, AeroMexico NEEDS the fuel efficiency advantage that the A220 offers! And if AeroMexico wants to be closely associated with a world class airline like Delta, the passenger comfort/ergonomics offered by the A220 would be appreciated by connecting passengers.


Ed Bastien in his WP Live interview gives a hint on Delta's backbone narrowbody fleet plan to be based on the A321, B739 and the A220 family. That might indicate a gap to be filled.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/washingt ... d-bastian/

"And we're moving to the newer Airbus 321neo platform, the Airbus 220s, as well as 350s. And the 737-900 platform, that's going to be the platform of choice for Delta."
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:13 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
Lavdumper69 wrote:
Once the Covid situation starts to improve worldwide, AeroMexico would be a prime candidate for new A220s. With their diverse route structure across North America and into Latin/South America, leveraging the range on either A220 100s or 300s would make far more sense than using less flexible E190s or 737NGs. Given its strategic ties with Delta, I imagine the A220 has the edge vs the E2. I could see a mixed order for 100s and 300s (and hopefully 500s at some point) given the different capacity requirements on various routes. Since the 300 seems to be the more popular version to order these days, I bet an airline could source smaller 100s at reasonable rates.

Considering the highly competitive nature of the LCC market in Mexico, AeroMexico NEEDS the fuel efficiency advantage that the A220 offers! And if AeroMexico wants to be closely associated with a world class airline like Delta, the passenger comfort/ergonomics offered by the A220 would be appreciated by connecting passengers.


Ed Bastien in his WP Live interview gives a hint on Delta's backbone narrowbody fleet plan to be based on the A321, B739 and the A220 family. That might indicate a gap to be filled.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/washingt ... d-bastian/

"And we're moving to the newer Airbus 321neo platform, the Airbus 220s, as well as 350s. And the 737-900 platform, that's going to be the platform of choice for Delta."

A post-2025 A220-500 would be perfect to replace the brunt of the A320s and any A319s that need to go.
 
bkmbr
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:27 am

Re: Airbus A220 Sales Campaigns Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:29 am

T4thH wrote:
New Brazilian regional airline in founding: Linhas Aéreas Itapemirim
Airline has now decided to fly with A220.
First they had planned to fly with turboprops, now they have changed to A220. Start of airline is scheduled for first half of 2021.

Airline will start with 10 planes (temporary: Airbus A319, Boeing 737-700 or Embraer E190/E195) and than move in 3 years to the A220. They want to grow to up to 50 planes in 5 years.
Source is in German: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/itapemirim-neue-brasilianische-regionalairline-will-airbus-a220
So use Google translator or something else.

A start up funding by the state own Abu Dhabi fund with 500 million $ is secured.
Source In English. https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/abu-dhabi-invests-in-new-airline-in-brazil


Virtually nobody in Brazil is really taking this whole new Itapemirim thing (they already operated 2 different airlines in the past, a Cargo one with 727-200 and a passenger one with a couple of Cessna Caravans and failed to buy 2Z for the lack of funds 2 or 3 years ago) really seriously to be honest. The economic group they are linked to is undergoing a judicial reorganization for quite sometime in its long haul passenger bus operations (it was in the past the largest long haul bus transport company in the country by far in the past) and the group itself has a long history promising a lot and under-deliver and problems with justice and creditors. The group's CEO is also known for being over-optimistic when making promises. Many people in the country are hoping for the company to take off but given the huge level of promises made so far by the group I would say that the number of people betting that it will never get off the ground is much greater than those betting that it will actually fly regardless of the model they say they will use.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos