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MEA-707
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Re: Emirates Retires First A380

Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:14 pm

    Jetport wrote:
    Why did they repaint it white, seems like a waste of money? Even if this one is leased and the owner wants it white, you would think Emirates would split the savings of not having to repaint it with the owner and they would gladly accept since there is a 99.99% chance this aircraft gets scrapped.

    Many airlines' PR departments are really sensitive about this and take care their logos or colours are removed from non airworthy aircraft. Pictures of a halfly scrapped A380 in Emirates colours would give the impression the airlines fleet is rickety and obsolete, it will be used for memes, etc.
    nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
     
    emiratesdriver
    Posts: 294
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:43 pm

    You can think all you want, this is the first of many being taken out of service to preserve cash and Wasta.

    seabosdca wrote:
    I don't think retirement of the early builds says much about the future of the rest of the fleet, which depends almost entirely on whether the world resumes pre-COVID travel patterns within the next couple of years. It's been known since they entered service that the early builds are more expensive and time-consuming to maintain, and they will leave on time no matter what else happens.
     
    danipawa
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:51 pm

    How many to follow ?
     
    airhansa
    Posts: 380
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:54 pm

    I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.

    Around $30 per km in fuel.

    ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.

    For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.

    Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?
     
    MIflyer12
    Posts: 8493
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:58 pm

    seabosdca wrote:
    I don't think retirement of the early builds says much about the future of the rest of the fleet, which depends almost entirely on whether the world resumes pre-COVID travel patterns within the next couple of years.


    How many, beyond the early builds, need to be retired before you accept that economics do not favor A380 operation? Five? Ten? For contrast, how many twelve year old 77Ws have been retired?
     
    Confuscius
    Posts: 3717
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:15 pm

    Jetport wrote:
    Why did they repaint it white, seems like a waste of money?


    Too bad Air France retired all their A380s. All this plane needs is a little blue and red paint...and dirt. It's good to go.
    Ain't I a stinker?
     
    stefanJ
    Posts: 17
    Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:48 pm

    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:22 pm

    TC957 wrote:
    What happened to the EK 380 that got damaged during maintenance when it fell of it's jacks ? did they retire that frame ?



    They repaired that A380 (A6-EOP) and it was back in the air again earlier this year. See https://www.aerotelegraph.com/en/airbus ... lies-again
     
    SteelChair
    Posts: 1450
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:30 pm

    The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

    The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over
     
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    Revelation
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    Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:41 pm

    smartplane wrote:
    A buyback does not make the OEM a lease holder. They would be a beneficial owner if invoked, and have a contingent liability until invoked, expires or retired.

    Ahh, the old buyback clause. The ghost of John Leary may end up haunting the house of Airbus.
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    alfa164
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:04 pm

    airhansa wrote:
    I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.
    Around $30 per km in fuel.
    ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.
    For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.
    Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?


    1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

    2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.

    That... plus a lot more... and you will have your answer...
    I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
    I have decided to be cremated....
     
    426Shadow
    Posts: 235
    Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:13 am

    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:11 pm

    SteelChair wrote:
    The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

    The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over


    You bout to make some people in here cry lol.

    To me the A380 was always a vanity peen swinging project. The Concorde was also but to a lesser degree. The difference is back then everyone was working on a supersonic jet, but only one ever had a serious run in the end. The A380 was not the same as they weren't inventing a new wheel so much as making it slightly bigger. That's the main reason it never stood a chance.
    We are all just fanboys, our opinions don't make or break businesses.
     
    Jomar777
    Posts: 571
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:15 pm

    alfa164 wrote:
    airhansa wrote:
    I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.
    Around $30 per km in fuel.
    ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.
    For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.
    Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?


    1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

    2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.

    That... plus a lot more... and you will have your answer...


    I think you are right but I guess the main reasons would be:

    a. The amount of crew on board plus on the ground to fly this bird would make ticket prices unprofitable. Even more if you consider the turnaround time which is so key for a LCC;
    b. Most of LCCs at least in Europe, with some exceptions, fly to secondary Airports which might not necessarily be able to handle an A380 on a LCC configuration (let alone some like those used by Ryanair which would not be able to handle an A380 full stop).

    I also remember that, when the A380 was initially advertised, there were indeed plans for it to operate on high densities (e.g. Japanese routes - never materialized as we know...) so I am pretty sure that it can handle 800 plus passengers on an emergency situation since it would have been project for it.

    What sometimes wonders me is why didn't any US airlines (Delta for that matter) not consider it since it could fly high density legacy routes more efficiently. Take JFK-LHR for example, you could cut one of the rotations and probably make two flights in one single well set A380 (instead of flying two A330s/B764s, for example). But I am sure there is a reason probably which I naively do not know...
     
    CriticalPoint
    Posts: 1062
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:28 pm

    Jomar777 wrote:
    alfa164 wrote:
    airhansa wrote:
    I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.
    Around $30 per km in fuel.
    ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.
    For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.
    Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?


    1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

    2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.

    That... plus a lot more... and you will have your answer...


    I think you are right but I guess the main reasons would be:

    a. The amount of crew on board plus on the ground to fly this bird would make ticket prices unprofitable. Even more if you consider the turnaround time which is so key for a LCC;
    b. Most of LCCs at least in Europe, with some exceptions, fly to secondary Airports which might not necessarily be able to handle an A380 on a LCC configuration (let alone some like those used by Ryanair which would not be able to handle an A380 full stop).

    I also remember that, when the A380 was initially advertised, there were indeed plans for it to operate on high densities (e.g. Japanese routes - never materialized as we know...) so I am pretty sure that it can handle 800 plus passengers on an emergency situation since it would have been project for it.

    What sometimes wonders me is why didn't any US airlines (Delta for that matter) not consider it since it could fly high density legacy routes more efficiently. Take JFK-LHR for example, you could cut one of the rotations and probably make two flights in one single well set A380 (instead of flying two A330s/B764s, for example). But I am sure there is a reason probably which I naively do not know...


    First anything to LHR especially from NY is frequency driven. Combining flights would actually be bad for DL. It’s the same reason United flew 757s to LHR from EWR.....the frequency was mor important.

    Second the US is not a market for the A380 because of the hub structure we have. You can get to Tokyo on US carriers from:

    LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/SLC/DEN/IAH/DFW/MSP/ORD/
    DTW/EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL

    Airlines that have A380s had a single or double hub structure so they could fill the seats.
     
    Jomar777
    Posts: 571
    Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:36 pm

    CriticalPoint wrote:
    Jomar777 wrote:
    alfa164 wrote:

    1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

    2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.

    That... plus a lot more... and you will have your answer...


    I think you are right but I guess the main reasons would be:

    a. The amount of crew on board plus on the ground to fly this bird would make ticket prices unprofitable. Even more if you consider the turnaround time which is so key for a LCC;
    b. Most of LCCs at least in Europe, with some exceptions, fly to secondary Airports which might not necessarily be able to handle an A380 on a LCC configuration (let alone some like those used by Ryanair which would not be able to handle an A380 full stop).

    I also remember that, when the A380 was initially advertised, there were indeed plans for it to operate on high densities (e.g. Japanese routes - never materialized as we know...) so I am pretty sure that it can handle 800 plus passengers on an emergency situation since it would have been project for it.

    What sometimes wonders me is why didn't any US airlines (Delta for that matter) not consider it since it could fly high density legacy routes more efficiently. Take JFK-LHR for example, you could cut one of the rotations and probably make two flights in one single well set A380 (instead of flying two A330s/B764s, for example). But I am sure there is a reason probably which I naively do not know...


    First anything to LHR especially from NY is frequency driven. Combining flights would actually be bad for DL. It’s the same reason United flew 757s to LHR from EWR.....the frequency was mor important.

    Second the US is not a market for the A380 because of the hub structure we have. You can get to Tokyo on US carriers from:

    LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/SLC/DEN/IAH/DFW/MSP/ORD/
    DTW/EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL

    Airlines that have A380s had a single or double hub structure so they could fill the seats.


    Thanks for this - it is news to me. I sometimes always wondered why, for example, you would have BA and AA flights to JFK so close to each other form an Airport (LHR) which is so slot constrained.

    But we learn every day.
     
    CriticalPoint
    Posts: 1062
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:42 pm

    Jomar777 wrote:
    CriticalPoint wrote:
    Jomar777 wrote:

    I think you are right but I guess the main reasons would be:

    a. The amount of crew on board plus on the ground to fly this bird would make ticket prices unprofitable. Even more if you consider the turnaround time which is so key for a LCC;
    b. Most of LCCs at least in Europe, with some exceptions, fly to secondary Airports which might not necessarily be able to handle an A380 on a LCC configuration (let alone some like those used by Ryanair which would not be able to handle an A380 full stop).

    I also remember that, when the A380 was initially advertised, there were indeed plans for it to operate on high densities (e.g. Japanese routes - never materialized as we know...) so I am pretty sure that it can handle 800 plus passengers on an emergency situation since it would have been project for it.

    What sometimes wonders me is why didn't any US airlines (Delta for that matter) not consider it since it could fly high density legacy routes more efficiently. Take JFK-LHR for example, you could cut one of the rotations and probably make two flights in one single well set A380 (instead of flying two A330s/B764s, for example). But I am sure there is a reason probably which I naively do not know...


    First anything to LHR especially from NY is frequency driven. Combining flights would actually be bad for DL. It’s the same reason United flew 757s to LHR from EWR.....the frequency was mor important.

    Second the US is not a market for the A380 because of the hub structure we have. You can get to Tokyo on US carriers from:

    LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/SLC/DEN/IAH/DFW/MSP/ORD/
    DTW/EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL

    Airlines that have A380s had a single or double hub structure so they could fill the seats.


    Thanks for this - it is news to me. I sometimes always wondered why, for example, you would have BA and AA flights to JFK so close to each other form an Airport (LHR) which is so slot constrained.

    But we learn every day.


    Yeah think of that route as equivalent to NY-SFO/LAX. If you want the high fares you need the frequency.
     
    SteelChair
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:49 pm

    426Shadow wrote:
    SteelChair wrote:
    The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

    The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over


    You bout to make some people in here cry lol.

    To me the A380 was always a vanity peen swinging project. The Concorde was also but to a lesser degree. The difference is back then everyone was working on a supersonic jet, but only one ever had a serious run in the end. The A380 was not the same as they weren't inventing a new wheel so much as making it slightly bigger. That's the main reason it never stood a chance.


    Well I've been plenty critical of Boeing, so hopefully people will see that i am even-handed. Too big is too big, whether its the 777x or 748 or A380
     
    JayinKitsap
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:57 pm

    In the US, there used to be widebodies flying some of the busiest routes. Now it is all back to 737's and 320's, I suppose the airlines that actually pay the bills know what is the most profitable equipment for each route.

    Even in Japan all of the domestic 747s doing short hops are disappearing.

    I believe the US was the first country to really do deregulation, its now been 30+ years where it has been the wild west. Plane fares today are 2/3 of what they were then, in real dollars under half what we had to pay then. Massive increase in volume because of it so it has been good, but screw up and not read the market right - yikes.
     
    Dynamac
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:27 am

    I was wondering why the reg seemed so familiar, then I realised it was amazingly my only A380 flight to date AKL-SYD when it wasn't even a year old. It was quite a memorable trip because it was my first flight without my parents and with my now wife. Specifically picked the a380 option expecting it was the first of many. I just remember it being so much more spacious and quiet.

    Now it's already heading for the scrapper.
     
    dtw2hyd
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:19 am

    Is it officially retired or one of those Emirates signature unconfirmed perpetual rumors.
    All posts are just opinions.
     
    Jetport
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    Re: Emirates Retires First A380

    Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:09 am

    MEA-707 wrote:
      Jetport wrote:
      Why did they repaint it white, seems like a waste of money? Even if this one is leased and the owner wants it white, you would think Emirates would split the savings of not having to repaint it with the owner and they would gladly accept since there is a 99.99% chance this aircraft gets scrapped.

      Many airlines' PR departments are really sensitive about this and take care their logos or colours are removed from non airworthy aircraft. Pictures of a halfly scrapped A380 in Emirates colours would give the impression the airlines fleet is rickety and obsolete, it will be used for memes, etc.


      That is silly and irrational. But PR and Marketing folks are often silly and irrational. How much does it cost to paint an A380 white just to send it to the scrapper? I can't imagine Southwest and Ryanair repaint their planes when the retire them.
       
      Fuling
      Posts: 290
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      Re: Emirates Retires First A380

      Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:42 am

      Jetport wrote:
      MEA-707 wrote:
        Jetport wrote:
        Why did they repaint it white, seems like a waste of money? Even if this one is leased and the owner wants it white, you would think Emirates would split the savings of not having to repaint it with the owner and they would gladly accept since there is a 99.99% chance this aircraft gets scrapped.

        Many airlines' PR departments are really sensitive about this and take care their logos or colours are removed from non airworthy aircraft. Pictures of a halfly scrapped A380 in Emirates colours would give the impression the airlines fleet is rickety and obsolete, it will be used for memes, etc.


        That is silly and irrational. But PR and Marketing folks are often silly and irrational. How much does it cost to paint an A380 white just to send it to the scrapper? I can't imagine Southwest and Ryanair repaint their planes when the retire them.


        It's not silly and irrational. Painting it white before scrapping takes away any negative impression to the 'not-so-aviation-savvy' that the airline's aircraft being badly maintained. A nervous flyer might also have a hard time seeing (in person or images) a broken up EK aircraft and might not book with EK in the future simply based on that recollection of 'the broken up EK aircraft'.

        A lot of airlines cover up titles/logos when scrapping or an accident. Airlines naturally have a lot of face, and aircraft liveries is marketing too. So a billboard on a torn up plane isn't great.
         
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        qf789
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:23 am

        JayinKitsap wrote:
        Even in Japan all of the domestic 747s doing short hops are disappearing.



        Are disappearing? The last one to be retired was 6 years ago by ANA (2014) and Japan Airlines 9 years ago (2011)
        Forum Moderator
         
        A380MSN004
        Posts: 764
        Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:07 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:29 am

        alfa164 wrote:
        airhansa wrote:
        I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.
        Around $30 per km in fuel.
        ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.
        For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.
        Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?


        1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

        2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.



        Emergency evacuation test certified 873 participants (max capacity pax config + crew) back in 2006

        https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... -test.html
         
        A380MSN004
        Posts: 764
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:30 am

        Jetport wrote:
        Why did they repaint it white, seems like a waste of money? Even if this one is leased and the owner wants it white, you would think Emirates would split the savings of not having to repaint it with the owner and they would gladly accept since there is a 99.99% chance this aircraft gets scrapped.


        This one is owned by EK
         
        User avatar
        flee
        Posts: 1350
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:34 am

        A380MSN004 wrote:
        alfa164 wrote:
        airhansa wrote:
        I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.
        Around $30 per km in fuel.
        ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.
        For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.
        Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?

        1) You try to find 853 people who will reliably and regularly fill up the plane;

        2) You handle to emergency evacuation test and see how long it takes to get 853 people off the plane.


        Emergency evacuation test certified 873 participants (max capacity pax config + crew) back in 2006

        https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... -test.html

        I am always sceptical of the evacuation certification test procedure. It always assumes that the aircraft is intact and in perfect condition. In many cases, when pax have to evacuate an aircraft, it is following some incident or crash. The plane will have broken bits and pieces as well as blockage to the emergency exits. It will take much longer to evacuate!

        Sad to see the EK A380 go but this is a scheduled retirement - so no big deal. For me, the A380 is still the most comfortable aircraft to fly in and I will always try to book on an airline that operates to the destination I am travelling to.
         
        USAirKid
        Posts: 675
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:06 am

        Jetport wrote:
        That is silly and irrational. But PR and Marketing folks are often silly and irrational. How much does it cost to paint an A380 white just to send it to the scrapper? I can't imagine Southwest and Ryanair repaint their planes when the retire them.


        Imagine harder..



         
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:01 am

        A380MSN004 wrote:
        This one is owned by EK

        Interesting. Since TFA suggests this retirement is happening a few months earlier than planned, I wonder if this indicates that there will be a wholesale retirement of the early frames by EK since they have no need to consult with leasing firms? It's pretty clear they aren't getting value from the parked frames, might as well get some that you know you don't need or want off the books as soon as possible.
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        airbazar
        Posts: 10197
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:16 pm

        SteelChair wrote:
        The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

        The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over

        That's all relative. Failure for whom? EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.
         
        SteelChair
        Posts: 1450
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:55 pm

        airbazar wrote:
        SteelChair wrote:
        The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

        The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over

        That's all relative. Failure for whom? EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.


        Failure for Airbus. They lost billions on the program.
         
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        par13del
        Posts: 10397
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:01 pm

        airbazar wrote:
        SteelChair wrote:
        The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

        The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over

        That's all relative. Failure for whom? EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.

        Interesting as there is a debate on whether EK is successful or a subsidized entity.
         
        A330Inter
        Posts: 76
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        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:38 pm

        par13del wrote:
        airbazar wrote:
        SteelChair wrote:
        The failure of the A380 has manifested itself so thoroughly that it is going out of production. Yet, people are still postulating wild theories on this thread.

        The A380 is too big, too heavy, to inefficient, and too expensive. The day of the quad jet is over

        That's all relative. Failure for whom? EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.

        Interesting as there is a debate on whether EK is successful or a subsidized entity.


        Success because it took Emirates and its shareholders/owners where they aimed to be in 2020, one of the top leading carriers in the world and a world recognised brand.
         
        Draken21fx
        Posts: 241
        Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:27 pm

        airhansa wrote:
        I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.

        Around $30 per km in fuel.

        ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.

        For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.

        Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?


        Well Greece is widely regarded as more Western than Eastern Europe by most. Don't forget that Greece was never under the USSR but, since you brought Greece as an example, although they might get cheap cabin crew there is no way they can fill a plane of 800+ people to SIN.

        Wasnt Scoot flying that route a few years ago?

        Greece's economy is focused around touristic services so they would be no business traffic in the foreseeable future, nor Singapore is a place with a large Greek diaspora, so you would struggle to fill all seats with tourists and what would you do during winter months?

        The only place I can see cattle class 380s working is on busy low cost airports of cities where you have 4-5 widebodies daily to a specific destination as they can lower the cost and consolidate those to 3 departure per day, or they can increase seats offered. In Western Europe there is only a handful of those airports at the moment and I dont see them increasing anytime soon. ATH is definitely not congested compared to some other European airports so you are much better off sending a 787 like Scoot did.
         
        User avatar
        Revelation
        Posts: 24793
        Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:44 pm

        airbazar wrote:
        EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.

        EK certainly says A380 was and is not a failure, but actions speak louder than words.

        EK dumped 34 A380 orders that became A350 orders because A380 is a failure and A350 is not.

        EK is allegedly trying to get out from the last five A380s still on order.

        EK's A380s remain parked while their 777s still fly.

        I can easily see the predictions of EK retiring 40% or more of the A380 fleet becoming true regardless of what STC says.

        He was trying to get out from under the A380s but the CV19 crisis has left the company short of income needed to make the planned transition to A350s and 787s yet stuck with A380s still coming in.

        His successors have a big mess to sort out, with or without his advice.

        It's natural he'll defend the A380 because they are a big part of his legacy, but as above, actions will speak louder than words.
        Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
        The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
        Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
        The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
         
        Opus99
        Posts: 1147
        Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:28 pm

        Revelation wrote:
        airbazar wrote:
        EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.

        EK certainly says A380 was and is not a failure, but actions speak louder than words.

        EK dumped 34 A380 orders that became A350 orders because A380 is a failure and A350 is not.

        EK is allegedly trying to get out from the last five A380s still on order.

        EK's A380s remain parked while their 777s still fly.

        I can easily see the predictions of EK retiring 40% or more of the A380 fleet becoming true regardless of what STC says.

        He was trying to get out from under the A380s but the CV19 crisis has left the company short of income needed to make the planned transition to A350s and 787s yet stuck with A380s still coming in.

        His successors have a big mess to sort out, with or without his advice.

        It's natural he'll defend the A380 because they are a big part of his legacy, but as above, actions will speak louder than words.

        100% going into the future it’s clear EK need to heavily downsize. I mean I guess the 380 really made its money during the summer seasons and high capacity routes but I wonder out of the over 100 aircrafts how many were operating at a loss and how often, because there are some routes where in the whole world only EK operated 380s and you just wonder.

        I think going forward the 777x should be used as the 380 replacement and the 350 and 787 should go to the 777-300er replacement program. I think their returns would be more favourable
         
        JayinKitsap
        Posts: 2289
        Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:47 pm

        So where will EK's graveyard be. DWC? This plane will get flown to somewhere, then become a parts donor. EK's own fleet will become the parts donors, the leased planes will go to the lessor who really doesn't want them.
         
        dtw2hyd
        Posts: 8455
        Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:57 pm

        Opus99 wrote:
        ...
        I think going forward the 777x should be used as the 380 replacement and the 350 and 787 should go to the 777-300er replacement program. I think their returns would be more favourable


        That is too far away, looking at past deliveries, Emirates won't need any new deliveries anytime soon even if they retire promptly on 12 year schedule, which they haven't so face.

        They should retire 32x777s and 4xA380 this year to keep 12 year schedule.

        2012-16 was Emirates binge buying era, means only after 2028 capacity can be rationalized.

        By 2028-29 A380 fleet size would be reasonable.

        Year__B777, A380
        2005 - 4(-6),0
        2006 - 8(-4),0
        2007 - 8(-3),0
        2008 - 12,4
        2009 - 14(-3),3
        2010 - 3,8
        2011 - 12,5
        2012 - 22,11
        2013 - 11,13
        2014 - 14,13
        2015 - 11,15
        2016 - 16,20
        2017 - 12,9
        2018 - 6, 8
        2019 - 0,6
        All posts are just opinions.
         
        Strato2
        Posts: 565
        Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:52 pm

        Opus99 wrote:
        [
        I think going forward the 777x should be used as the 380 replacement and the 350 and 787 should go to the 777-300er replacement program. I think their returns would be more favourable


        Getting 777X as a replacement for the A380 is like treating a broken leg by amputation.
         
        User avatar
        TWA772LR
        Posts: 7347
        Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:55 pm

        Is there any possibility that these could be picked up by BA or SQ, airlines that actually have a limited fotoprint and could make use of A380s?
        USAirKid wrote:
        Jetport wrote:
        That is silly and irrational. But PR and Marketing folks are often silly and irrational. How much does it cost to paint an A380 white just to send it to the scrapper? I can't imagine Southwest and Ryanair repaint their planes when the retire them.


        Imagine harder..




        For Southwest, all you need is a blue decal for the tail, and some blue Krylon from Walmart for the fuselage. Same with Ryanair except white Krylon, unless the letters are decals then you just peel those off.
        When wasn't America great?


        The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
         
        9Patch
        Posts: 616
        Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:00 pm

        flee wrote:
        I am always sceptical of the evacuation certification test procedure. It always assumes that the aircraft is intact and in perfect condition. In many cases, when pax have to evacuate an aircraft, it is following some incident or crash. The plane will have broken bits and pieces as well as blockage to the emergency exits. It will take much longer to evacuate!

        Especially since the 'passengers' doing the test know in advance they are going to evacuate. They are much more likely to pay attention to the flight attendants safety and evacuation briefing.

        During the evacuation test do the 'passengers' bring on carry-on bags that go in the overhead bins and under the seats to mimic a real world situation?
         
        Opus99
        Posts: 1147
        Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:29 pm

        Strato2 wrote:
        Opus99 wrote:
        [
        I think going forward the 777x should be used as the 380 replacement and the 350 and 787 should go to the 777-300er replacement program. I think their returns would be more favourable


        Getting 777X as a replacement for the A380 is like treating a broken leg by amputation.

        Elaborate please
         
        JayinKitsap
        Posts: 2289
        Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:43 pm

        9Patch wrote:
        flee wrote:
        I am always sceptical of the evacuation certification test procedure. It always assumes that the aircraft is intact and in perfect condition. In many cases, when pax have to evacuate an aircraft, it is following some incident or crash. The plane will have broken bits and pieces as well as blockage to the emergency exits. It will take much longer to evacuate!

        Especially since the 'passengers' doing the test know in advance they are going to evacuate. They are much more likely to pay attention to the flight attendants safety and evacuation briefing.

        During the evacuation test do the 'passengers' bring on carry-on bags that go in the overhead bins and under the seats to mimic a real world situation?


        True that the test doesn't represent a crash condition, but it does cover a whole bunch of cases where the hull is intact. It's pretty realistic in that only half the exits are used, its dark, yes there is luggage in the aisle etc. Hard to believe it can be done, but the A380 did it in less than 80 seconds.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jSOkznc2dM
         
        User avatar
        SEPilot
        Posts: 5649
        Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:50 pm

        airhansa wrote:
        I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.

        Around $30 per km in fuel.

        ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.

        For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.

        Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?

        Simple. No airline can reliably get 853 people to travel the given route at the same time day in and day out. Yes, it works great and makes money when full, but it bleeds badly when not. The risk is just too much.
        The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
         
        Opus99
        Posts: 1147
        Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 7:54 pm

        SEPilot wrote:
        airhansa wrote:
        I still wonder why no airline has managed to make the A380 work as a low-cost cattle class plane? An all-economy seating A380 can host 853 passengers.

        Around $30 per km in fuel.

        ATH to SIN is about 5621km, making fuel costs around $168630. Divided by 853 it would mean $197 as a minimum ticket price. I didn't include staffing costs as a low cost country can provide cheaper staffing, but overall a ticket price lower than $300 doesn't seem that illogical.

        For lower distance routes that are busy it's possible to have prices as lower than $50 in terms of fuel.

        Though Emirates may not get away with it, surely India or a Eastern European country like Greece could?

        Simple. No airline can reliably get 853 people to travel the given route at the same time day in and day out. Yes, it works great and makes money when full, but it bleeds badly when not. The risk is just too much.

        Till today I’m quite confused how emirates has an A380 config that sits over 600 people
         
        cockpitherald
        Posts: 13
        Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:56 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:22 pm

        Emirates will also likely remove two of its aging A380s, registered as A6-EDA and A6-EDC, that are stored at Dubai International Airport.

        https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/06/14/emi ... tire-more/
         
        User avatar
        lightsaber
        Moderator
        Posts: 20562
        Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:23 pm

        JayinKitsap wrote:
        9Patch wrote:
        flee wrote:
        I am always sceptical of the evacuation certification test procedure. It always assumes that the aircraft is intact and in perfect condition. In many cases, when pax have to evacuate an aircraft, it is following some incident or crash. The plane will have broken bits and pieces as well as blockage to the emergency exits. It will take much longer to evacuate!

        Especially since the 'passengers' doing the test know in advance they are going to evacuate. They are much more likely to pay attention to the flight attendants safety and evacuation briefing.

        During the evacuation test do the 'passengers' bring on carry-on bags that go in the overhead bins and under the seats to mimic a real world situation?


        True that the test doesn't represent a crash condition, but it does cover a whole bunch of cases where the hull is intact. It's pretty realistic in that only half the exits are used, its dark, yes there is luggage in the aisle etc. Hard to believe it can be done, but the A380 did it in less than 80 seconds.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jSOkznc2dM

        Because people get hurt in the testing, neither the FAA nor EASA want to do anything more aggressive. The regulatory agencies prefer "by analysis" for this type of testing.

        The A380 required a test as evacuating two decks was new. Nothing may be extrapolated, it must all be interpolated. So a taller deck height requires a new test.

        The high density A380 didn't take off, literally. The market went to smaller aircraft repositioned as needed.

        Lightsaber
        Winter is coming.
         
        cpd
        Posts: 6547
        Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:43 pm

        Opus99 wrote:
        Revelation wrote:
        airbazar wrote:
        EK certainly doesn't think the A380 was a failure.

        EK certainly says A380 was and is not a failure, but actions speak louder than words.

        EK dumped 34 A380 orders that became A350 orders because A380 is a failure and A350 is not.

        EK is allegedly trying to get out from the last five A380s still on order.

        EK's A380s remain parked while their 777s still fly.

        I can easily see the predictions of EK retiring 40% or more of the A380 fleet becoming true regardless of what STC says.

        He was trying to get out from under the A380s but the CV19 crisis has left the company short of income needed to make the planned transition to A350s and 787s yet stuck with A380s still coming in.

        His successors have a big mess to sort out, with or without his advice.

        It's natural he'll defend the A380 because they are a big part of his legacy, but as above, actions will speak louder than words.

        100% going into the future it’s clear EK need to heavily downsize. I mean I guess the 380 really made its money during the summer seasons and high capacity routes but I wonder out of the over 100 aircrafts how many were operating at a loss and how often, because there are some routes where in the whole world only EK operated 380s and you just wonder.

        I think going forward the 777x should be used as the 380 replacement and the 350 and 787 should go to the 777-300er replacement program. I think their returns would be more favourable


        All the ones I flew on were usually very full. But I’m flying on the major very busy routes. On the flip side I’ve been on fairly empty B777s of Emirates.

        I think it’s right for M some of those A6-ED* aircraft to go. The ED generation are pretty tired inside compared to their newer sister aircraft. They are still comfortable enough but a bit older in the entertainment systems.
         
        Jetport
        Posts: 145
        Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:23 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:39 pm

        USAirKid wrote:
        Jetport wrote:
        That is silly and irrational. But PR and Marketing folks are often silly and irrational. How much does it cost to paint an A380 white just to send it to the scrapper? I can't imagine Southwest and Ryanair repaint their planes when the retire them.


        Imagine harder..





        Thanks for confirming what I assumed/imagined. All LUV did was paint over the logos. Everyone in the US knows these were Southwest aircraft. Emirates wasted money painting over the rest of their color scheme for some reason.
         
        User avatar
        par13del
        Posts: 10397
        Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Mon Jun 15, 2020 1:27 am

        cpd wrote:
        All the ones I flew on were usually very full. But I’m flying on the major very busy routes. On the flip side I’ve been on fairly empty B777s of Emirates.

        Does make you question the competence of EK management and Airbus, as obviously the a/c is very popular with the customers.
         
        User avatar
        flee
        Posts: 1350
        Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:14 am

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:08 am

        TWA772LR wrote:
        Is there any possibility that these could be picked up by BA or SQ, airlines that actually have a limited fotoprint and could make use of A380s?

        Both BA and SQ will require aircraft with RR Trent 900 engines - these early EK aircraft are fitted with EA GP7200s and will definitely not do for them. And that is before they undergo a cabin reconfiguration that is rumoured to cost around USD 50m per aircraft. Conclusion: it is highly unlikely that BA and SQ will buy any used ex-EK A380s!
         
        ltbewr
        Posts: 15338
        Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

        Re: Emirates Retires First A380

        Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:36 am

        In the end, it is the accountants and financial managers who make the decision, not the fanboys or haters of particular aircraft. Those at EK made the decision in the company's best interest, including the unknown length of the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent economic contraction.

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