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VSMUT
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:56 pm

ER757 wrote:
EK7777 wrote:
Even more 777X to be swapped for 789s:

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... 787-orders

The renderings in the article are interesting - is the EK logo painted on the tips of the wings? Looks that way. VS has theirs painted red, maybe EK is taking a cue


Yep, but only on the 777Xs, not the 787 in the render. I guess it's because the 777s wingtips will fold up.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:59 pm

IMHO MEX is just a terrible market for premium cabins and last minute purchasers. Its vast majority booked far ahead and super price based. IE why even aero mexico cant even make cities in america work consistently. Not a good market for Emirates cabin configuration. This route needed MEX-BCN to really hit it out of the park, guessing it didnt.
 
EK7777
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:00 pm

VV wrote:
The article also says they are discussing with Airbus.

Any idea on the subject of discussion?
A380? A350? A330neo?
Presumably trying to avoid taking delivery of the remaining eight A380s.

If I remember correctly, they didn't actually want the 330neo.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:02 pm

Does anyone know if 777X seats are wider than the ones on 787?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:04 pm

Turns out if you read the fine print at the end of the article, it's a reprint of a Bloomberg piece with a less clicky title at https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... unresolved

VV wrote:
The article also says they are discussing with Airbus.

Any idea on the subject of discussion?
A380? A350? A330neo?

TFA says:

Its swollen order book also includes Airbus A380 superjumbos and 50 smaller A350s, which are now the subject of separate delivery talks.

Emirates was supposed to take delivery of three A380s in June, but the carrier agreed with Airbus to delay these until later this year, the COO said.

Like most airlines, EK simply doesn't need planes, and especially doesn't need the A380s which are supposed to be taken this year.

TFA says:

Boeing wants to hand over the larger 777X first, the COO said, in line with an agreement made before the coronavirus tore up the plans of airlines around the world.

“I think Boeing would prefer to deliver the 777s before 787 because that is a new program for them,” Al Redha said. Boeing declined to comment.

It also says EK's first 787s are scheduled for 2023, so what we may end up seeing is Boeing agreeing to move some of the later 77x over to 787.

It seems the airline business will be a different thing in 2023 so no one can know much about when/if any of these planes will be delivered.
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aviator2000
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:18 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
IMHO MEX is just a terrible market for premium cabins and last minute purchasers. Its vast majority booked far ahead and super price based. IE why even aero mexico cant even make cities in america work consistently. Not a good market for Emirates cabin configuration. This route needed MEX-BCN to really hit it out of the park, guessing it didnt.


Given that the route began in December 2019, right at the beginning of the pandemic, I doubt that the route cancellation had much to do with the type of passengers Mexico atracts.
 
LatinPlane
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:59 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
IMHO MEX is just a terrible market for premium cabins and last minute purchasers. Its vast majority booked far ahead and super price based. IE why even aero mexico cant even make cities in america work consistently. Not a good market for Emirates cabin configuration. This route needed MEX-BCN to really hit it out of the park, guessing it didnt.


:scratchchin: Try telling that to Air France! MEX provides Air France with 50% of it's entire premium business class revenue in AF's entire Latin American division (yes, all Latin American cities) combined. Hence the reason why AF had the A380 flying to MEX as it was one of a few destinations that allowed for a profitable A380 operation due to the heavy premium traffic it generates.

MEX-BCN is leisure oriented as mostly all transatlantic routes into BCN. It registers high load factors, but it's all in the back of the plane. Unlike MEX- MAD which according to IB itself, MEX is its most important premium market in its network.

As my 3rd grade teacher would say... If you read, you'll succeed.
Last edited by LatinPlane on Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gregd75
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:03 pm

I understood that MEX is a premium heavy market for intercontinental traffic.

LH flies their 747-8, iberia A350, BA & KLM 787-9 all because the flying is premium heavy.

Except Barcelona, which is a leisure market.
 
9Patch
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:11 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if 777X seats are wider inside than the ones on 787?

I doubt it. The 777X is only 4 inches wider inside than the old 777.
Emirates uses 17" wide seats on their 77Ws.
The additional 4 inches might let them increase the seat width to 17.2 inches, which is which is what many carriers use on the 787.
 
danipawa
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:45 am

Pick up some of the Hainan, Vistara, Avianca NTU frames please.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:00 am

9Patch wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if 777X seats are wider inside than the ones on 787?

I doubt it. The 777X is only 4 inches wider inside than the old 777.
Emirates uses 17" wide seats on their 77Ws.
The additional 4 inches might let them increase the seat width to 17.2 inches, which is which is what many carriers use on the 787.


10 abreast 777X seats will be 18" wide which is wider that 9 abreast 787 seats. The 777X increased the interior width vs 777 and reshaped the sidewalls to accommodate wider economy seats.
 
ewt340
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:35 am

JohanTally wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if 777X seats are wider inside than the ones on 787?

I doubt it. The 777X is only 4 inches wider inside than the old 777.
Emirates uses 17" wide seats on their 77Ws.
The additional 4 inches might let them increase the seat width to 17.2 inches, which is which is what many carriers use on the 787.


10 abreast 777X seats will be 18" wide which is wider that 9 abreast 787 seats. The 777X increased the interior width vs 777 and reshaped the sidewalls to accommodate wider economy seats.


That is wrong though. The usable cabin width on B777X would be 234 inches, which is 4 inches more than the current B777.

In order to accommodate 18 inches seat width, they have to make the arm rest smaller by 0,5 inches. So like A350, the armrest would be 1,5 inch in width (the standard arm rest width would be 2 inches). They would also accommodate 17,25 inches of aisle.

If they use the standard 2 inches arm rest, the seat width would be 17,4 inches instead, which is the same as B787.
 
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bluefltspecial
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:20 am

SCQ83 wrote:
:D . I recall how nuts the Catalan government got to grant 5th freedom flights to MEX to build their "long haul hub" (despite not having a single local long-haul carrier other than LEVEL).

I wouldn't be surprised that Aeromexico now drops Barcelona too, which at best of times was a marginal route (only restarting it in 2019) to focus in Madrid.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong? but BCN had plenty of long haul carriers, including AC, CX, DL, DY, EY, KE, WS and UA just off the top of my head...

On top of that Norwegian at one point was even flying to at least 3 or more destinations in the Americas at one point.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
LatinPlane
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 am

Gregd75 wrote:
I understood that MEX is a premium heavy market for intercontinental traffic.

LH flies their 747-8, iberia A350, BA & KLM 787-9 all because the flying is premium heavy.

Except Barcelona, which is a leisure market.


MEX has historically been premium heavy for both LH and AF. German and French companies have been doing business in Mexico many decades before NAFTA came along. MEX was one of only a few cities in Latin America to get Concorde service by Air France. Only Rio de Janeiro and once oil-rich Caracas had enough passengers to warrant Concorde service in the '70s and early '80s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4AE2IdW9ws

Emirates really won't be missed. The majority of its passengers were flying to BCN with little to few going to DXB. On the other hand, Turkish Airlines was showing good results on its IST-MEX-CUN service. It was registering around an 80% load factor and service was going from 3x to 4x a week in Summer 2020 - pre-COVID crisis of course.
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9Patch
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:41 am

JohanTally wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if 777X seats are wider inside than the ones on 787?

I doubt it. The 777X is only 4 inches wider inside than the old 777.
Emirates uses 17" wide seats on their 77Ws.
The additional 4 inches might let them increase the seat width to 17.2 inches, which is which is what many carriers use on the 787.


10 abreast 777X seats will be 18" wide which is wider that 9 abreast 787 seats. The 777X increased the interior width vs 777 and reshaped the sidewalls to accommodate wider economy seats.


Do the math.
They increased the interior width 4 inches, across 10 seats and two aisles. If the seats are going to be 18 inches wide, they must taking something from the aisles.
 
santi319
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:02 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
IMHO MEX is just a terrible market for premium cabins and last minute purchasers. Its vast majority booked far ahead and super price based. IE why even aero mexico cant even make cities in america work consistently. Not a good market for Emirates cabin configuration. This route needed MEX-BCN to really hit it out of the park, guessing it didnt.

Imagine literally having no clue how important MEX is for business in LatAm...
 
SCQ83
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:31 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
:D . I recall how nuts the Catalan government got to grant 5th freedom flights to MEX to build their "long haul hub" (despite not having a single local long-haul carrier other than LEVEL).

I wouldn't be surprised that Aeromexico now drops Barcelona too, which at best of times was a marginal route (only restarting it in 2019) to focus in Madrid.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong? but BCN had plenty of long haul carriers, including AC, CX, DL, DY, EY, KE, WS and UA just off the top of my head...

On top of that Norwegian at one point was even flying to at least 3 or more destinations in the Americas at one point.


Barcelona did not and does not have many long-haul carriers to LatAm. According to Wikipedia:

- Aeromexico: MEX; this a new route also launched at about the same time as EK's (late last year)
- Avianca: BOG
- LATAM: LIM, GRU (GRU is only a few years old)
- LEVEL: EZE, SCL (which are relatively new routes)

So not long ago, BCN did only have Avianca (BOG), LATAM (LIM), Aerolíneas (EZE, which dropped a couple of years ago) and Singapore (GRU as 5th freedom which also was cancelled). Not to mention most of those routes are not even daily. Now if you compare it with MAD (and Catalan politicians always compare everything with MAD), when Aeromexico/Emirates started MEX, MAD-MEX was up to five... daily flights.

As for North America flights, I expect many of those to be cancelled soon. Those flights depend overwhelmingly on American cruise passengers which for the time being are gone. For instance, AA has already cancelled CLT (definitely) and this winter there are no BCN-Florida flights (considering that by a wide margin MIA/FLL is the 2nd largest market from Spain after NYC, it is interesting).

The Catalan government has a bad time with Barcelona not being a hub for a long haul carrier (other than that low-cost version of Madrid-based Iberia called LEVEL). Hence why all those 5th freedom flights (Singapore or Emirates) When it was the Spanair saga about 10 years ago, they wanted Qatar Airways to purchase it and create a hub. There are plenty of articles about this: https://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-fi ... a-mas.html

So this EK's 5th freedom to MEX is not by "chance"... it is part of a repeteadly failed strategy of the Catalan government and their obsession to create a long-haul hub out of BCN. Unfortunately today Barcelona is a holiday cruise market more akin to Athens or Naples than to a major business center. Hence why BCN despite having 50 million PAX in 2019 was not a hub for a legacy carrier (and Vueling/LEVEL are not). Low-cost central.
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:43 am

According to the latest filings, DXB-BCN-MEX flights are cancelled for the period from 25OCT-30NOV20.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-19aug20/
 
VV
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:45 am

EK7777 wrote:
VV wrote:
The article also says they are discussing with Airbus.

Any idea on the subject of discussion?
A380? A350? A330neo?
Presumably trying to avoid taking delivery of the remaining eight A380s.

If I remember correctly, they didn't actually want the 330neo.


You may be right about the A330neo.
In addition there is no trace of the A330neo order in the latest Airbus' orders and deliveries spreadsheet.
However there has not been any formal statement from Emirates they do not want to order A330neo any more.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:24 am

I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates cancels SCL

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:35 am

It seems GII, EZE and SCL are back.
This is from the lastest filings and updates.

Link: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-19aug20/

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates cancels SCL

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:35 am

It seems GIG, EZE and SCL are back.
This is from the lastest filings and updates.

Link: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-19aug20/

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by xwb777 on Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
xwb777
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Re: Emirates cancels SCL

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:35 am

It seems GII, EZE and SCL are back.
This is from the lastest filings and updates.

Link: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-19aug20/

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
chiki
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:44 am

VV wrote:
I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?
A350-900 equivalent in size is 787-10 and that why EK downgraded to 9 as it is smaller.

Sent from my SM-J415F using Tapatalk
 
EK7777
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:58 am

VV wrote:
I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?
If I remember correctly, the A359 order was the result of them dumping 28 out of the total 36 A380s that were undelivered at the time.

The 787-9s were switched from the initial MoU which was for 787-10s.

EK is finally realising that they need smaller planes.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:59 am

VV wrote:
I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?



Perhaps Ek had no choice for 7879 because the wanted to reduce 77X orders.

Same for a350 and a380 scenario I guessing.

With A380 production finished, is a350 at the risk of the cancel too? Because they wanting 7879 early as 777x tradeoff, airbus has nothing else to offer.

Ek rejected a330neo because they concerned over financing it and values are so poor for long tewrm investment. Cold days inthe hell before ek ever selects useless a33neo.
 
aviator2000
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:23 am

SCQ83 wrote:
bluefltspecial wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
:D . I recall how nuts the Catalan government got to grant 5th freedom flights to MEX to build their "long haul hub" (despite not having a single local long-haul carrier other than LEVEL).

I wouldn't be surprised that Aeromexico now drops Barcelona too, which at best of times was a marginal route (only restarting it in 2019) to focus in Madrid.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong? but BCN had plenty of long haul carriers, including AC, CX, DL, DY, EY, KE, WS and UA just off the top of my head...

On top of that Norwegian at one point was even flying to at least 3 or more destinations in the Americas at one point.


Barcelona did not and does not have many long-haul carriers to LatAm. According to Wikipedia:

- Aeromexico: MEX; this a new route also launched at about the same time as EK's (late last year)
- Avianca: BOG
- LATAM: LIM, GRU (GRU is only a few years old)
- LEVEL: EZE, SCL (which are relatively new routes)

So not long ago, BCN did only have Avianca (BOG), LATAM (LIM), Aerolíneas (EZE, which dropped a couple of years ago) and Singapore (GRU as 5th freedom which also was cancelled). Not to mention most of those routes are not even daily. Now if you compare it with MAD (and Catalan politicians always compare everything with MAD), when Aeromexico/Emirates started MEX, MAD-MEX was up to five... daily flights.

As for North America flights, I expect many of those to be cancelled soon. Those flights depend overwhelmingly on American cruise passengers which for the time being are gone. For instance, AA has already cancelled CLT (definitely) and this winter there are no BCN-Florida flights (considering that by a wide margin MIA/FLL is the 2nd largest market from Spain after NYC, it is interesting).

The Catalan government has a bad time with Barcelona not being a hub for a long haul carrier (other than that low-cost version of Madrid-based Iberia called LEVEL). Hence why all those 5th freedom flights (Singapore or Emirates) When it was the Spanair saga about 10 years ago, they wanted Qatar Airways to purchase it and create a hub. There are plenty of articles about this: https://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-fi ... a-mas.html

So this EK's 5th freedom to MEX is not by "chance"... it is part of a repeteadly failed strategy of the Catalan government and their obsession to create a long-haul hub out of BCN. Unfortunately today Barcelona is a holiday cruise market more akin to Athens or Naples than to a major business center. Hence why BCN despite having 50 million PAX in 2019 was not a hub for a legacy carrier (and Vueling/LEVEL are not). Low-cost central.


I’ll take my time to correct a “few” facts you got wrong here.

Latam (or rather Tam) launched GRU in 2015 so that’s 5 years already and that came before LIM which was started one year later. Opposite from what you mentioned, most of the routes to Latin America are (or where before COVID) daily (or more than daily) with only LIM and SCL having less than daily flights.

As for now, Barcelona will have flights to Miami on AA this winter, resuming in late-October. You can check on their website.

I’m not sure what you are suggesting when you state that EK’s DXB-BCN-MEX flights where not started by “chance” . Would you care to explain what role did the catalan government play in this?
 
VV
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:19 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
...
Ek rejected a330neo because they concerned over financing it and values are so poor for long tewrm investment. Cold days inthe hell before ek ever selects useless a33neo.


Do you think your comment applies only to Emirates?

Or do you think it is a general concern?
 
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enzo011
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:26 am

JohanTally wrote:
10 abreast 777X seats will be 18" wide which is wider that 9 abreast 787 seats. The 777X increased the interior width vs 777 and reshaped the sidewalls to accommodate wider economy seats.



I think it is more accurate to state that 10-abreast in a 777X can be 18" in width, not that it will be. I think EK would be better off to keep the current seats they have and increase the aisle width as it is a pain walking the aisles or sitting in a aisle seat and having the FA's squeeze the trolleys through the tight aisles. No fun for elbows and hitting seats probably causes damage as well.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:53 am

VV wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
...
Ek rejected a330neo because they concerned over financing it and values are so poor for long tewrm investment. Cold days inthe hell before ek ever selects useless a33neo.


Do you think your comment applies only to Emirates?

Or do you think it is a general concern?


General - and to everyone that airbus has sold or is the trying to sell neo-330 to.
 
VV
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:18 pm

chiki wrote:
...
A350-900 equivalent in size is 787-10 and that why EK downgraded to 9 as it is smaller.


How much smaller is the 787-9 compared to A350-900?

Do you think Airbus compares the A350-900 against the 787-10 or do they do it against the 787-9?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:42 pm

VV wrote:
chiki wrote:
...
A350-900 equivalent in size is 787-10 and that why EK downgraded to 9 as it is smaller.


How much smaller is the 787-9 compared to A350-900?

Do you think Airbus compares the A350-900 against the 787-10 or do they do it against the 787-9?


I don't think it matters how Airbus forms the comparison. The relevance is how EK plans to use a 787 in the (proposed, not historic) network. If they don't need the range of a 350/789 along a good number of mooted routes then the 787-10 is great.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:24 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
I’m not sure what you are suggesting when you state that EK’s DXB-BCN-MEX flights where not started by “chance” . Would you care to explain what role did the catalan government play in this?


There is plenty of online "literature" about the Barcelona/Catalan interests (via the Spanish Ministerio de Fomento) + Emirates (so the UAE) governments pushing the Mexican government (backing Aeromexico/Delta on the other side) to approve it.

https://www.hosteltur.com/lat/123610_em ... exico.html
https://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/2 ... -prat.html
https://elpais.com/economia/2019/12/09/ ... 82513.html

Much Ado About Nothing. Not that different from Singapore Airlines' BCN-GRU which was the same "soap opera" to approve back in the day to be cancelled a few years later because the market was not there.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:40 pm

I had a gut feeling this was going to happen, after they cut the GIG flights. Not surprised GRU is still going, but I am surprised they cannot maintain at least a GIG terminator (like when that route originally started).
 
VV
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VV wrote:
chiki wrote:
...
A350-900 equivalent in size is 787-10 and that why EK downgraded to 9 as it is smaller.


How much smaller is the 787-9 compared to A350-900?

Do you think Airbus compares the A350-900 against the 787-10 or do they do it against the 787-9?


I don't think it matters how Airbus forms the comparison. The relevance is how EK plans to use a 787 in the (proposed, not historic) network. If they don't need the range of a 350/789 along a good number of mooted routes then the 787-10 is great.


Are you saying Emirates only flies distances that require the capability of A350-900?
 
abrelosojos
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:56 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
IMHO MEX is just a terrible market for premium cabins and last minute purchasers. Its vast majority booked far ahead and super price based. IE why even aero mexico cant even make cities in america work consistently. Not a good market for Emirates cabin configuration. This route needed MEX-BCN to really hit it out of the park, guessing it didnt.


= What are you talking about? MEX is one of the most premium heavy markets out there. It is like BOM. AM can't make cities in NAM work because AM has lost a sense of strategy in the post-Anko DL owned era. If MEX did not have premium traffic, an airline like AM with a 35-50% cost disadvantage wouldn't consistently be break even pre-COVID.

Saludos,
Alex
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abrelosojos
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Re: Emirates cancels SCL

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:14 pm

I don't expect these services to be restored so soon. SEP is crazy! And, SCL over MEX?

Saludos,
Alex
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:41 pm

VV wrote:
EK7777 wrote:
VV wrote:
The article also says they are discussing with Airbus.

Any idea on the subject of discussion?
A380? A350? A330neo?
Presumably trying to avoid taking delivery of the remaining eight A380s.

If I remember correctly, they didn't actually want the 330neo.


You may be right about the A330neo.
In addition there is no trace of the A330neo order in the latest Airbus' orders and deliveries spreadsheet.
However there has not been any formal statement from Emirates they do not want to order A330neo any more.

https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-air- ... 22.article says this was made known at the Dubai Air Show in November 2019.

“We made this decision after a thorough review of our various aircraft options and fleet plans,” says chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum.

So, there was no grand indictment of the A330neo such as we read in this thread and others, yet of course it must have been a huge disappointment to the A330neo program leadership. They could really use another big customer or two to give the program some staying power.

We can imagine EK wants to avoid planes with low resale value. They're the biggest operator of A380s in the world. QF just took a $1.4B write down of its A380 fleet. 77W seems to also be hitting a valuation crisis. Yet at the time these two were purchased they were very highly regarded. The point is that chasing future valuation is pretty problematic. EK is kinda buying into 787 and A350 somewhat late in their production life. 787 production numbers are just hitting 1000, A350 closing in on 500, and EK is looking to defer both A350 and 787.

VV wrote:
I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?

If so, it's the same game AF, MU, CZ, JL, LH, QR, and maybe even UA are playing.
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:37 pm

VV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you think Airbus compares the A350-900 against the 787-10 or do they do it against the 787-9?

I don't think it matters how Airbus forms the comparison. The relevance is how EK plans to use a 787 in the (proposed, not historic) network. If they don't need the range of a 350/789 along a good number of mooted routes then the 787-10 is great.

Are you saying Emirates only flies distances that require the capability of A350-900?

I think a lot of us expected EK to pick up a "regional" less rangey aircraft such as A339 or B781. In fact they did have "commitments" to such aircraft at various times. Yet now we see they went with the more "rangey" aircraft in A359 and B789. EK itself suggests it ran the aircraft through their network models and these are the right answers for them. I guess this means whatever penalties one pays for flying around heavy structures and empty fuel tanks on short routes gets made up and is exceeded by the benefits of having the payload/range available when needed. Of course this is subject to how they set up such network models. We know for instance they are very reluctant to leave behind cargo on hot summer days so they often size their aircraft to take max cargo on hot days. This suggests they can charge a lot for such cargo or they have stiff penalties to pay when they can't take such cargo.
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
...
VV wrote:
I have a question about the 787-9 order.

Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
Wouldn't it be more reasonable to keep the fleet as simple as possible by increasing the orders for A350-900 instead of ordering 787-9?
Why would they add an extra aircraft type to the fleet?

Are they playing some kind of game here?

If so, it's the same game AF, MU, CZ, JL, LH, QR, and maybe even UA are playing.


Do you think the game somehow put pressure on the A350 program?
 
aviator2000
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:50 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
aviator2000 wrote:
I’m not sure what you are suggesting when you state that EK’s DXB-BCN-MEX flights where not started by “chance” . Would you care to explain what role did the catalan government play in this?


There is plenty of online "literature" about the Barcelona/Catalan interests (via the Spanish Ministerio de Fomento) + Emirates (so the UAE) governments pushing the Mexican government (backing Aeromexico/Delta on the other side) to approve it.

https://www.hosteltur.com/lat/123610_em ... exico.html
https://www.lavanguardia.com/economia/2 ... -prat.html
https://elpais.com/economia/2019/12/09/ ... 82513.html

Much Ado About Nothing. Not that different from Singapore Airlines' BCN-GRU which was the same "soap opera" to approve back in the day to be cancelled a few years later because the market was not there.


The only thing mentioned about Spain in these articles is that it granted permision to Emirates to operate 5th freedom flights between DXB & MEX via Barcelona. AFAIK, this is not pushing anyone to do anything.

Singapore Airlines didn't exit the GRU-BCN route because there wasn't a market for it but because TAM started it and pushed SIA out of the route. In fact, the route was quickly made daily after Singapore's exit.
 
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:11 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
...
VV wrote:
...
Why did Emirates order the 787-9 when they already have the A350-900?
...
Are they playing some kind of game here?

If so, it's the same game AF, MU, CZ, JL, LH, QR, and maybe even UA are playing.

Do you think the game somehow put pressure on the A350 program?

Competition always puts pressure on a program, I would think. It is interesting that an B781 LOI became a firm order for B789 rather than more A359. Not sure what the behind the scenes mechanics were. It could have been a way to keep price pressure on Team A, it could have been a way to get out from under 77X it knew it wouldn't need in the short term, it could have been a nice way to push commitments out to 2023 knowing it was going to have to deal with absorbing more A380s it knew it didn't need in the near future. Clearly fleet simplification is a good goal, but it's only one of many priorities.

The presser ( https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... i-airshow/ ) says EK exercised conversion rights in its 77x contract to take on the 789, and also:

HH Sheikh Ahmed said: “I am pleased to announce a firm order for 30 Boeing Dreamliners. This is an important investment and addition to our future fleet and network requirements, providing us the agility, flexibility and spread of seat segments when it comes to overall capacity to serve a range of destinations as we develop and grow our global route network. This also reflects Emirates’ continued efforts to provide the best quality air transport services to our customers.

The 787s will complement our fleet mix by expanding our operational flexibility in terms of capacity, range and deployment to connect new city pairs and expand frequencies. We are also pleased to reaffirm our commitment to the Boeing 777x programme and look forward to its entry into service.”

Not a hint of keeping pressure on Team A, but that would be impolitic to say at such an occasion.

A cynic could say EK simply over-ordered A380 and 77X and its only way to get out from under those bad decisions was to get deferments to buy time to absorb the excess commitments, and to convert orders to A359 and 789 to get value out of their deposits, and treat the resulting inefficiencies of having two similar but different airplane types in the fleet as a cost to be paid for the earlier mistakes.

Maybe the cynic would be right.
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Kikko19
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:30 pm

I understand that the a350 Had advantages over 789 for field performance when taking off from hot places, and that was the reason for taking the a350
 
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
...

If so, it's the same game AF, MU, CZ, JL, LH, QR, and maybe even UA are playing.

Do you think the game somehow put pressure on the A350 program?

Competition always puts pressure on a program, I would think. It is interesting that an B781 LOI became a firm order for B789 rather than more A359. Not sure what the behind the scenes mechanics were. It could have been a way to keep price pressure on Team A, it could have been a way to get out from under 77X it knew it wouldn't need in the short term, it could have been a nice way to push commitments out to 2023 knowing it was going to have to deal with absorbing more A380s it knew it didn't need in the near future. Clearly fleet simplification is a good goal, but it's only one of many priorities
....


The question is now whether the 787-10 that entered into service in 2018 would add even more pressure to the A350-900.
 
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:04 pm

Irehdna wrote:
I had a gut feeling this was going to happen, after they cut the GIG flights. Not surprised GRU is still going, but I am surprised they cannot maintain at least a GIG terminator (like when that route originally started).


Why are you surprised? Rio's long haul demand has been pretty much wiped out over the last 2 decades. It can barely support 1 daily flight to Miami year round. LATAM Brazil has abandoned long haul flying out of GIG. And we are talking pre-pandemic times. Without the EZE tag, EK's GIG flight was doomed.
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:36 pm

The only way the 78X can truly challenge the 350 (any model) is through a massive PIP (aero clean-ups,weight reduction,engine enchancement,mtow increase)

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Do you think the game somehow put pressure on the A350 program?

Competition always puts pressure on a program, I would think. It is interesting that an B781 LOI became a firm order for B789 rather than more A359. Not sure what the behind the scenes mechanics were. It could have been a way to keep price pressure on Team A, it could have been a way to get out from under 77X it knew it wouldn't need in the short term, it could have been a nice way to push commitments out to 2023 knowing it was going to have to deal with absorbing more A380s it knew it didn't need in the near future. Clearly fleet simplification is a good goal, but it's only one of many priorities
....


The question is now whether the 787-10 that entered into service in 2018 would add even more pressure to the A350-900.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:39 pm

dcajet wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
I had a gut feeling this was going to happen, after they cut the GIG flights. Not surprised GRU is still going, but I am surprised they cannot maintain at least a GIG terminator (like when that route originally started).


Why are you surprised? Rio's long haul demand has been pretty much wiped out over the last 2 decades. It can barely support 1 daily flight to Miami year round.


Pre-COVID it supported flights to LHR, LGW, CDG, OPO, LIS, MAD, FCO, AMS, FRA, ZRH. GIG skews more Europe than the US. Out of those 10 flights there should be a critical mass continuing on to Asia.
 
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Re: Emirates axes MEX

Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:06 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
I really struggle to see where the demand between Mexico and the Middle East, Africa or the Indian subcontinent is. Even TK flying from Istanbul seems like a real stretch. With European carriers already flying to most of those places, I don't really see the relevance for the ME4 in Latin America apart GRU, GIG and EZE.


There is none. Nodody asked for it and nobody cares it is not here anymore.
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 pm

VV wrote:
chiki wrote:
...
A350-900 equivalent in size is 787-10 and that why EK downgraded to 9 as it is smaller.


How much smaller is the 787-9 compared to A350-900?

Do you think Airbus compares the A350-900 against the 787-10 or do they do it against the 787-9?


The 787-9 seats only around 3 additional rows (around 25-30 seats) less than the A350-900. The difference is not that much because the 787 can go with a 9 abreast seating, but the A350 cant with a comfortable 10 abreast seating. I think this is a big miss by Airbus that they havent built the fuselage a bit wider to allow 10 abreast seating, would have beat the 777 even more (also think about the A350-1000).

I dont know what Airbus compares the A350-900 to. Normally the A350 and 787 are no direct competitors at all! The A350-900 competes or more precisely replaces the 777-200ER/LR (almost) perfectly. 787 and A350 only overlap where the 787-10 meets the A350-900 but just in terms of capacity, these planes do different missions.

The airplane competing with the 787 is the A330neo, unless you want to fly ~12 hours+, then the A350 is your plane.
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Re: Emirates: 777X further delayed until 2022, considering to convert more orders to 787

Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:55 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I don't think it matters how Airbus forms the comparison. The relevance is how EK plans to use a 787 in the (proposed, not historic) network. If they don't need the range of a 350/789 along a good number of mooted routes then the 787-10 is great.

Are you saying Emirates only flies distances that require the capability of A350-900?

I think a lot of us expected EK to pick up a "regional" less rangey aircraft such as A339 or B781. In fact they did have "commitments" to such aircraft at various times. Yet now we see they went with the more "rangey" aircraft in A359 and B789. EK itself suggests it ran the aircraft through their network models and these are the right answers for them. I guess this means whatever penalties one pays for flying around heavy structures and empty fuel tanks on short routes gets made up and is exceeded by the benefits of having the payload/range available when needed. Of course this is subject to how they set up such network models. We know for instance they are very reluctant to leave behind cargo on hot summer days so they often size their aircraft to take max cargo on hot days. This suggests they can charge a lot for such cargo or they have stiff penalties to pay when they can't take such cargo.

There are ongoing discussions with FZ, who believe route ownership should be based on distance, not aircraft type WB (EK) and NB (FZ). Presumably FZ also want to be compensated for baling out EK from A380 air frame and engine commitments, irrespective of whether the A330NEO is their preferred aircraft. Add the EK and FZ succession plans to the mix, and eventually the ultimate owners of both will need to intervene, but no hurry at present given the state of the industry and immediate prospects.

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