D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:25 am

dragon6172 wrote:
IADCA wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
You don't know for certain they didnt tell ATC.


Well, the ATC recording is out there, and it sure doesn't sound like they did on that part of it. And you have absolutely zero evidence at present in support of your implied view that they DID tell ATC. Moreover, it doesn't matter: if they'd told ATC "we need to go out to dump fuel over the ocean," they'd have been there. There's quite possibly a reason that they needed to suddenly dump where they did - and maybe they said something to Approach that wasn't picked up on the recordings made public so far - but for that dude to say that "the pilots are not the ones deciding where they fly" is absurd when applied to an emergency situation.

The ATC recording? From the FAA? Or some recording from an enthusiast website?
I do agree with your last part about the other statement about pilots deciding where to fly. My only point is folks are commenting with definite statements with incomplete information. I think it's quite possible the pilots didnt tell ATC about the fuel dump, but I wouldn't say it definitely based on a recording from LiveATC

You’re not suggesting VASAviation made up a fake ATC recording are you?

Yes, it is possible that the pilots requested to dump fuel at 2375’ and ATC approved. But how likely do you think that is?

1) ATC offered it earlier and the pilots said it was unnecessary.

2) ATC would have known the request would have been fulfilled at below 2500’ in a large metropolis over buildings and people at the last minute of the plane’s flight

3) would ATC have vectored other planes through the same space as fuel dumping occurred? Because it looks like other flights followed DL89 to lax.
 
IADCA
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:28 am

dragon6172 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

It's the real deal, via LiveATC. The question is whether it's complete. And that only the FAA will provide. You're right in that I shouldn't have said "never," but it's accurate to say that at present there is absolutely zero evidence that they did tell ATC.

And nobody's doing much to explain how this is somehow the ATC's call to dump fuel at low altitude over a populated area and not the pilot's. That's the part I was reacting to in that guy's post. As I already said, it's possible there is more out there in terms of recordings, but this still is the pilot's call, not ATC's.

LiveATC is not the real deal, or maybe we have different definitions of what that is. And I agree, it is the pilots call on the dumping of fuel.


I guess we have different definitions. I'd call a contemporaneous, verbatim audio recording of everything that is said on frequency the real deal. Granted, you need multiple frequencies to get the whole picture, but it's pretty accurate as to the part of the picture you can see.
 
Karlsands
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:31 am

If it WAS simply just a compressor stall with the RAT deployed and quick circuit back To the field with low altitude fuel dumping, it almost sounds as if the flight crew panicked or assumed something significantly more major was on the horizon in regards to systems failure etc . A triple 7 can easily land at max Gross take off weight on KLAX’s runways , (obviously being over weight emergency wise they would need an inspection after the matter and tires, breaks , gear etc, could be affected )
 
Adipocere
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:33 am

N649DL wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Meh, the kids will walk it off ;-)

Out of LAX with an engine emergency issue you're kind of screwed either way as it's a city with an approach surrounded by densely populated suburbs, ocean, mountains and DTLA. I'm sure there was a reason for it.

Could it be that LAX Tower or ATC asked for it or something like that?


How are you screwed over the ocean?


The aircraft can easily be ripped apart if it tries to ditch in the ocean. See US 1549 or that Ethiopian flight hijacked by terrorists. It depends on how dire the engine situation actually was.


If the pilots think that wave heights on an ocean can be risky for a ditching then how is it that they decided to fly over an urban area with buildings and maybe even skyscrapers? Wouldn’t that be an even worse option?
 
wjcandee
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:34 am

usflyguy wrote:
2nd DL772 they’re, obviously, missing items on their ETOPS checks or just aren’t doing them completely. Profits before people.


Seriously? Any DL mechs care to comment on this?
 
IPFreely
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:35 am

zippy wrote:
ATC: So you don't need to dump fuel or anything like that?
DL89: Negative. Uh we'll be requesting runway 25R


Just listened, the actual quote is:

ATC: "So you don't need to hold to dump fuel or anything like that?"
DL89: "Negative"

Which was a correct statement. They were able to dump fuel without holding.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:35 am

dragon6172 wrote:
IADCA wrote:

It's the real deal, via LiveATC. The question is whether it's complete. And that only the FAA will provide. You're right in that I shouldn't have said "never," but it's accurate to say that at present there is absolutely zero evidence that they did tell ATC.

And nobody's doing much to explain how this is somehow the ATC's call to dump fuel at low altitude over a populated area and not the pilot's. That's the part I was reacting to in that guy's post. As I already said, it's possible there is more out there in terms of recordings, but this still is the pilot's call, not ATC's.

LiveATC is not the real deal, or maybe we have different definitions of what that is. And I agree, it is the pilots call on the dumping of fuel.


It is the pilots call to dump fuel and Emergency or Mayday gives the pilots a lot of discretion......However they are going to to have to answer for every decision. To dump fuel at 2000 feet is a blatant and willful disregard of the FOM/FM and they better have a good reason or certificate action is a real possibility.

They had a compressor stall, contained it and had both engines still running. If you wanted to dump gas they had the ability and time to do it at 8000 feet out over the ocean. If they wanted to come back immediately they could land over weight.

The crew is going to have a hard time defending this in my opinion. Declaring an emergency is not a get out of jail free card.
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:38 am

Question:

How much fuel could they have dumped in the 15 miles between Cudahy, Ca. and LAX? Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:42 am

The pilots have some explaining to do. If you have to dump fuel, there aren't many better places than LAX where you immediately launch over an ocean. Instead dumping it at low altitude over land seems inexcusable.
 
klm672
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:49 am

BravoOne wrote:
This is why so many think Anet is such a joke. Does anyine here know what really caused this problem, much les being qualified to comment at this point in time?


Nope, not here!
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:49 am

D L X wrote:
Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?


That depends, are you asking as a suit that never has their life on the line or the person who has their life and the lives of all their passengers on the line.

Why didn’t you ask the question before they took off rather than after the event ? Do you think the crew has the same benefit of hindsight?
Last edited by zeke on Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:51 am

ual763 wrote:
LittleFokker wrote:
flybucky wrote:
According to AVHerald, "The crew did not request fuel dump."


I wonder how big of a violation that is and what sort of punishment the pilot could expect for executing an unauthorized fuel dump.


Pilot’s likely defense will be FAR 91.3.

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.


Well that still is not a blank check for dumping fuel about anywhere.

2 tons per minute of fuel dumped is barely going to make a difference during a 2 minute approach, ie what's a 4 tons lighter landing weight for something like a 300 ton B777? Hardly justifyable as "required to meet an emergency".

It would be justified if there is something wrong with both engines and you're trying to powerglide into the airport perimeter, but if it was just the one engine, go out to sea/desert and dump fuel or land overweight, is the SOP.

Granted, ATC clearance is not required for fuel dumping if it's for an emergency, however, the pilots have the responsibility to inform ATC so that ATC can take precautions vis a vis other aircraft.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_4.html
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:53 am

We have no evidence that there were ETOPS issues on this aircraft. The aircraft is certified to land at max weight if needed. They certainly could have dumped fuel however they stated it was not needed. There was no indication from their numerous communications with ATC that there were issues other than a compressor stall issue.

The aircraft can land just fine on one engine. Obviously they can't cross the Pacific with a dodgy right engine but fuel dumping follows a specific procedures. Dumping at FL 8000 over the Pacific would not be a big deal. Dumping fuel while an emergency declared aircraft on final for 25R at LAX below 6,000 is a big deal.

We of course will wait to hear from official reports but web boards like this are to discuss things. Yea its speculation but who cares???

My 2 cents:

1. Blown check list. One pilot running through the checklist began dumping fuel. Given the call-out that dumping wasn't needed, this is a possibility;

2. Another problem came up suddenly as they made their base turn. A pilots first job is to fly the plane, second navigate the plane and third communicate with ATC. If the issue arose suddenly and the pilots felt they needed to shed additional weight for some reason, they won't be talking to ATC while getting ready to land an overweight a/c during an emergency.

This smells like a mistake be it mechanical or human given the altitude at which the dump took place and the fact they were at or past the final base turn to line up with 25R and about to land.

This should be interesting and I expect that Delta and/or the FAA will make a disclosure soon given the fact the dump took place over schools at recess.
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:58 am

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?


That depends, are you asking as a suit that never has their life on the line or the person who has their life and the lives of all their passengers on the line.

Why didn’t you ask the question before they took off rather than after the event ? Do you think the crew has the same benefit of hindsight?



I’m asking as an aviation enthusiast that is hearing events that did not align with expectations. I can’t imagine the answer would depend on who is asking the question.

Do you have any expertise you’d like to share? I’d love to hear it.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:03 am

When do the Prop 65 warning signs start popping around KLAX?

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:03 am

D L X wrote:
[I can’t imagine the answer would depend on who is asking the question.


When you ask if it makes much of a difference it is spoken by someone who doesn’t have the responsibility of other people’s lives or their own line on the line.

It makes a difference, that is all that matters.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
btfarrwm
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:06 am

A couple of observations from the full LiveATC recordings...you can hear two pilot's voices at different times, so they were handing off pilot-flying and pilot-monitoring duties. They were asked about a fuel dump by the departure controller and then handed off to the approach controller and it appeared to be a different pilot on the radio between the two frequencies. It's easy to see how communication about a fuel-dump could have been lost between handoffs both within the cockpit and between different controllers. The pilots and the controllers were both clearly more focused on safely flying the airplane, configuring for an emergency landing, and clearing/avoiding traffic in very busy airspace for an emergency landing. While the fuel dump over a school looks bad, given the workload for both the pilots and the controllers, it's totally understandable.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:10 am

I took the “negative” statement about fuel dumping to mean they did not want ATC to worry about that and to get them back to the airport.

It does not mean, I am not, in my authority as captain choosing to forgo fuel dumping. That is my decision and not your concern.

I don’t know if fuel dumping was “needed” or not, but a pilot dealing with an emergency can do what they need to improve the survivability chances of the situation.

Even though a 772 CAN land at Max Gross Weight, doesn’t mean lowering the weight doesn’t improve survivability (go around, braking distance, fire potential).

It sounds like they dumped 15 minutes, which is I believe 30 tones, which I think could make a difference. And that is what matters. It could make a difference, so it probably was the right decision.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:13 am

Boy, this story overtook Delta records profit story today. I'm sure Delta has a huge Commerical insurance policy that those kids will be able to tap into from lawsuits. I bet Delta settle quickly with each family involved.
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:17 am

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
[I can’t imagine the answer would depend on who is asking the question.


When you ask if it makes much of a difference it is spoken by someone who doesn’t have the responsibility of other people’s lives or their own line on the line.

It makes a difference, that is all that matters.

Ok, assume the question is coming from someone with responsibility of other people’s lives.

Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?
 
N649DL
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:01 am

Adipocere wrote:
N649DL wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

How are you screwed over the ocean?


The aircraft can easily be ripped apart if it tries to ditch in the ocean. See US 1549 or that Ethiopian flight hijacked by terrorists. It depends on how dire the engine situation actually was.


If the pilots think that wave heights on an ocean can be risky for a ditching then how is it that they decided to fly over an urban area with buildings and maybe even skyscrapers? Wouldn’t that be an even worse option?


That's my point, both are awful options.

There had to be a reason for it. EDIT, I just checked and it was broken COMPRESSOR STALL! They came in over interior Los Angeles and started down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA90evz8gs

The crew didn't believe that they had to dump fuel at 1:50. Fuel and Souls onboard were requested between the 30 second and 60 minute mark. Listen to the pilots, they sounded scared as s***. Speed on final could've been the cause for dumping fuel. It was clearly an emergency.

What's crazier are users to believe it was done intentionally almost hoping for DL to have a bad day with the Liberal Press. Think about the folks on the aircraft and what they were going through ("ME THINK DL AND AA ARE BAD, UA GOOD") a.net user folks.

It's an unfortunate situation all around but aren't you happy that nobody died? If you look at the video, this all went down very, very quickly. If that plane went down, I'm sure there would be some users that would cheering it on because they hate Delta so much.

Just stop it fanboys with the trolling and harassment. This sounded pretty serious. Grow up a.net.
Last edited by N649DL on Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
SeoulIncheon
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:23 am

787SIN wrote:
Looks like PAL did a better job in the end, ok their aircraft got damaged but it was repaired and put back into service. Whereas Delta dowsed people on the ground.

As for fuel, after doing plenty of fuel tank entries during maintenance I can confirm its horrible stuff and even with the use of barrier creams and other PPE I still managed to get fuel on the skin which has led to over sensitivity to it.


Nope. It means PAL was very close to a disaster and Delta played it safe. The PAL aircraft suffered heavy damage - means that without some luck that aircraft had, the aircraft could have burst into flames or so. Aeroflot flight 1492 burst into flames when it landed 1.6 tonnes over maximum landing weight. (Weight was 43.5 tonnes and it didn't have fuel dump functions)
We have 20/20 hindsight but I would rule out overweight landing as an option if we have other options such as dumping fuel.
 
reltney
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:30 am

ATCJesus wrote:
Just for reference, ATC only requires 2000 ft above the highest obstacle for fuel dumping.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_4.html



Negative... I as a pilot can dump fuel anytime anywhere. It you need to do a “controlled dump”. 2000 ft is what the minimum altitude ATC can guide you while your dumping but you as a pilot can dump anytime you want. Indisputable.

When heavy on takeoff I instruct fuel dump with engine failure to the non flying pilot on my command ..well, unless we have a fire. the 747-400 at 870,000 was easy.one possible outcome was V1....ENGINE FAILURE.... rotate, FUEL. DUMP...POS RATE , GEAR UP....400ft...heading mode. Emergency aircraft, I make the rules.
To dump for an overweight landing....might be necessary due to runway length, blown tires...etc... usually doesn’t happen. As for the 777 dumping, he commanded it. I don’t question it as there was a reason. He is flying it His reason is good enough. Let the experts work the details.

Keep in mind, many non pilots and armchair ceo s try and complicate simple stuff. We as pilots are getting our passengers safely back on the ground. If you have a house underneath a departure from a major international airport, expect your swimming pool to have JP in it one day. If you don’t like it, move.

It’s not a bunch of cowboys out there. The planes will climb at gross weight with the loss of a single engine if everything is normal. Compound failure”gear stuck down” or something changes everything.

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
JarradS
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:31 am

Has anyone mentioned Chemtrails yet?
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:33 am

D L X wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
[I can’t imagine the answer would depend on who is asking the question.


When you ask if it makes much of a difference it is spoken by someone who doesn’t have the responsibility of other people’s lives or their own line on the line.

It makes a difference, that is all that matters.

Ok, assume the question is coming from someone with responsibility of other people’s lives.

Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?


The point of dumping fuel is too make the A/C lighter, a lighter aircraft will be softer on the gear and weight bearing structure during landing, allow a lower approach speed, require less energy to be Dissipated, require less runway be used/needed, and ensure better climb performance in case of an aborted landing. With that in mind, they were likely dumping fuel from the moment they decided to turn around. So then the question is more to do with when do you stop dumping fuel. Maybe it’s attached to flap deployment, gear deployment, an altitude, or an ETA. Will that point change after this, probably- but you should probably understand what the pilots are thinking about and doing...

While you are asking does dumping the fuel really matter, the pilots are asking is there anything else I can do to ensure a safe outcome for all the people on the plane. After all is said and done, the pilot does not want to be making the statement to an investigator “if I had done X, Y would not have happened”. Those are 2 different questions and methods of looking at the problem.
Boiler Up!
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:46 am

Web500sjc wrote:
D L X wrote:
zeke wrote:

When you ask if it makes much of a difference it is spoken by someone who doesn’t have the responsibility of other people’s lives or their own line on the line.

It makes a difference, that is all that matters.

Ok, assume the question is coming from someone with responsibility of other people’s lives.

Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?


The point of dumping fuel is too make the A/C lighter, a lighter aircraft will be softer on the gear and weight bearing structure during landing, allow a lower approach speed, require less energy to be Dissipated, require less runway be used/needed, and ensure better climb performance in case of an aborted landing. With that in mind, they were likely dumping fuel from the moment they decided to turn around. So then the question is more to do with when do you stop dumping fuel. Maybe it’s attached to flap deployment, gear deployment, an altitude, or an ETA. Will that point change after this, probably- but you should probably understand what the pilots are thinking about and doing...

While you are asking does dumping the fuel really matter, the pilots are asking is there anything else I can do to ensure a safe outcome for all the people on the plane. After all is said and done, the pilot does not want to be making the statement to an investigator “if I had done X, Y would not have happened”. Those are 2 different questions and methods of looking at the problem.

Thanks.

I get all that (that dumping lowers the weight of the plane), but what I was getting at is whether dumping with only 5 minutes left in the flight would change the weight of the plane much. Another poster (who appears to be a pilot) also answered, that at a ton a minute, that loses 5 tons. That doesn't seem like much for a 300+ ton bird. I guess what I don't know is when they started dumping fuel. I did not interpret the ATC discussion as agreement that they were going to dump fuel.

As for what the pilot is going to be saying to an investigator, I think they're not going to avoid that one given what happened.
 
SeoulIncheon
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:04 am

D L X wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
D L X wrote:
Ok, assume the question is coming from someone with responsibility of other people’s lives.

Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?


The point of dumping fuel is too make the A/C lighter, a lighter aircraft will be softer on the gear and weight bearing structure during landing, allow a lower approach speed, require less energy to be Dissipated, require less runway be used/needed, and ensure better climb performance in case of an aborted landing. With that in mind, they were likely dumping fuel from the moment they decided to turn around. So then the question is more to do with when do you stop dumping fuel. Maybe it’s attached to flap deployment, gear deployment, an altitude, or an ETA. Will that point change after this, probably- but you should probably understand what the pilots are thinking about and doing...

While you are asking does dumping the fuel really matter, the pilots are asking is there anything else I can do to ensure a safe outcome for all the people on the plane. After all is said and done, the pilot does not want to be making the statement to an investigator “if I had done X, Y would not have happened”. Those are 2 different questions and methods of looking at the problem.

Thanks.

I get all that (that dumping lowers the weight of the plane), but what I was getting at is whether dumping with only 5 minutes left in the flight would change the weight of the plane much. Another poster (who appears to be a pilot) also answered, that at a ton a minute, that loses 5 tons. That doesn't seem like much for a 300+ ton bird. I guess what I don't know is when they started dumping fuel. I did not interpret the ATC discussion as agreement that they were going to dump fuel.

As for what the pilot is going to be saying to an investigator, I think they're not going to avoid that one given what happened.


Still same, wrong question. The airceaft is overweight, so every ounce matters, period.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:13 am

D L X wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
D L X wrote:
Ok, assume the question is coming from someone with responsibility of other people’s lives.

Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?


The point of dumping fuel is too make the A/C lighter, a lighter aircraft will be softer on the gear and weight bearing structure during landing, allow a lower approach speed, require less energy to be Dissipated, require less runway be used/needed, and ensure better climb performance in case of an aborted landing. With that in mind, they were likely dumping fuel from the moment they decided to turn around. So then the question is more to do with when do you stop dumping fuel. Maybe it’s attached to flap deployment, gear deployment, an altitude, or an ETA. Will that point change after this, probably- but you should probably understand what the pilots are thinking about and doing...

While you are asking does dumping the fuel really matter, the pilots are asking is there anything else I can do to ensure a safe outcome for all the people on the plane. After all is said and done, the pilot does not want to be making the statement to an investigator “if I had done X, Y would not have happened”. Those are 2 different questions and methods of looking at the problem.

Thanks.

I get all that (that dumping lowers the weight of the plane), but what I was getting at is whether dumping with only 5 minutes left in the flight would change the weight of the plane much. Another poster (who appears to be a pilot) also answered, that at a ton a minute, that loses 5 tons. That doesn't seem like much for a 300+ ton bird. I guess what I don't know is when they started dumping fuel. I did not interpret the ATC discussion as agreement that they were going to dump fuel.

As for what the pilot is going to be saying to an investigator, I think they're not going to avoid that one given what happened.


In a non normal situation, the pilots are trying to do everything they can to have the aircraft arrive at the airport in one coherent piece. Like I said, the pilots were Not asking if they “needed” to dump, they were asking if dumping the fuel “could” help. They determined that having that much fuel was a hindrance and they could get rid of some of the fuel. At the end of the day they didn’t want to be saying “if we had kept dumping the fuel, the plane would have been 1 ton lighter. If the plane was 1 ton lighter, X wouldn’t have happened.” In Hindsight we can say the dumping wasn’t required, but that is because we know how all variables turned out.
Boiler Up!
 
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smithbs
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:23 am

I think the crew here will be absolved - it was an emergency, and they brought the airplane down safely. QED. So legally I think they are probably covered, although I'm sure they're having to do some explaining to DL and the FAA. Maybe there will be some stern faces saying "you probably shouldn't have done it that way," but I'd be surprised if goes further than that.

However...that's not enough to keep civil suits at bay, especially regarding school kids inhaling JP in LA. You might as well dump weed killer on a baby seal inside the Stanford Law campus. The DL hotline to their attorneys has been activated, I'm sure.
 
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Boeing757rb211
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:27 am

[quote="Redwood839"][quote="D L X"][quote="CriticalPoint"]

Lol this sounds like a scene from airplane. That’s a piston aircraft.[/quote]
Right?

But if it's DL89 and not a manipulated vid, something is terribly wrong with that engine(s).[/quote]

I think it's safe to say that another plane was flying near the person who shot the video...[/quote]


Thank You :idea: :checkmark: ...... Most common sense about the sound brought up yet.
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:29 am

Web500sjc wrote:
D L X wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:

The point of dumping fuel is too make the A/C lighter, a lighter aircraft will be softer on the gear and weight bearing structure during landing, allow a lower approach speed, require less energy to be Dissipated, require less runway be used/needed, and ensure better climb performance in case of an aborted landing. With that in mind, they were likely dumping fuel from the moment they decided to turn around. So then the question is more to do with when do you stop dumping fuel. Maybe it’s attached to flap deployment, gear deployment, an altitude, or an ETA. Will that point change after this, probably- but you should probably understand what the pilots are thinking about and doing...

While you are asking does dumping the fuel really matter, the pilots are asking is there anything else I can do to ensure a safe outcome for all the people on the plane. After all is said and done, the pilot does not want to be making the statement to an investigator “if I had done X, Y would not have happened”. Those are 2 different questions and methods of looking at the problem.

Thanks.

I get all that (that dumping lowers the weight of the plane), but what I was getting at is whether dumping with only 5 minutes left in the flight would change the weight of the plane much. Another poster (who appears to be a pilot) also answered, that at a ton a minute, that loses 5 tons. That doesn't seem like much for a 300+ ton bird. I guess what I don't know is when they started dumping fuel. I did not interpret the ATC discussion as agreement that they were going to dump fuel.

As for what the pilot is going to be saying to an investigator, I think they're not going to avoid that one given what happened.


In a non normal situation, the pilots are trying to do everything they can to have the aircraft arrive at the airport in one coherent piece. Like I said, the pilots were Not asking if they “needed” to dump, they were asking if dumping the fuel “could” help. They determined that having that much fuel was a hindrance and they could get rid of some of the fuel. At the end of the day they didn’t want to be saying “if we had kept dumping the fuel, the plane would have been 1 ton lighter. If the plane was 1 ton lighter, X wouldn’t have happened.” In Hindsight we can say the dumping wasn’t required, but that is because we know how all variables turned out.

Ah. I understand. Thanks!
 
reggiet
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:35 am

sadiqutp wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA90evz8gs

Apparently, pilots did not dump fuel (min 1:13) during atc contact. They requested 25R for weight, but other than that, it seemed like a regular compressor stall.



Thanks a lot for the ATC radio traffic. It was quite informative the Regarding the Controller side of things
Last edited by reggiet on Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reggie in Austin
 
lowbank
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:46 am

Redwood839 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Here's another video, longer than the one posted upstream. Turn your sound on.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 76737?s=20

Does that sound like a Trent to you?

PS: if I were one of the parents of the children at this school, I'd be PIIIIISSED!


Totally sounds like a Trent. Looks like it's running about redline at 2700 RPM


Having worked at a RR site that tested Trents on a weekly basis, it sounds nothing like a normal heathy Trent 1000. It sounds like a piston engine.
Every days a school day.
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:58 am

D L X wrote:
Does dumping fuel in the last 15 miles of a flight make much of a difference in landing weight?


Your essentially asking if they didn’t dump fuel what the outcome would have been, and then compare with what happened, no one knows.

If they didn’t dump fuel, would a broken leg, death of just one passenger, aircraft coming off the runway be much a difference in your book ?

In an industry where we make adjustments for a degree in temperature, changes in QNH, variations in wind, variations in weight, the adjustments are made because everything matters. We don’t say oh, that just an extra tonne of cargo, we won’t be bothered as it doesn’t matter much.

It makes a difference, and dumping fuel so late is not something you would do unless you thought it was necessary.

Initially they may have had a compressor stall at high thrust during climb, reduced the engine to idle, and it behaved. Go back for a two engine approach, just with asymmetric thrust. No big deal.

The engine might have stalled again at idle forcing them to shut it down, now your low and slow over terrain.

Something happened around where they turned base as they asked for more time and delay the descent. This seems to be around the time they declared an emergency.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:00 am

lowbank wrote:
Having worked at a RR site that tested Trents on a weekly basis, it sounds nothing like a normal heathy Trent 1000. It sounds like a piston engine.


Must be some new STC that I don’t know about to put the much smaller Trent 1000 on a 777.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:08 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
I took the “negative” statement about fuel dumping to mean they did not want ATC to worry about that and to get them back to the airport.

It does not mean, I am not, in my authority as captain choosing to forgo fuel dumping. That is my decision and not your concern.

I don’t know if fuel dumping was “needed” or not, but a pilot dealing with an emergency can do what they need to improve the survivability chances of the situation.

Even though a 772 CAN land at Max Gross Weight, doesn’t mean lowering the weight doesn’t improve survivability (go around, braking distance, fire potential).

It sounds like they dumped 15 minutes, which is I believe 30 tones, which I think could make a difference. And that is what matters. It could make a difference, so it probably was the right decision.


Yours is the first time I'm hearing that a compressor stall is something life threatening. The notion that a pilot can't be questioned for the way they handled an emergency is just silly. You had better have a very good reason for your actions and be ready to defend them with evidence.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:17 am

OK, I'm feeling a little disgusted at people downplaying the effects of getting soaked in kerosene here. So clarification before all the pilots here thinks it's no big deal to soak people on the ground with kerosene: it's dropping from overhead. You know where you really don't want to get kerosene? Your EYES. It does not feel good. If you don't need to dump fuel on people, and with limited information right now it's unknown if it was necessary, don't do it. Please. It's weird anyone is downplaying the idea of a playground full of kids writhing in pain because they just got kerosene in their eyes because they're probably not wearing eye protection.

It causes me burning irritation in my eye when I splash a drop on my damn cheek ffs. And I'm wearing eye protection when I'm dealing with it.
情報
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:19 am

Jouhou wrote:
OK, I'm feeling a little disgusted at people downplaying the effects of getting soaked in kerosene here. So clarification before all the pilots here thinks it's no big deal to soak people on the ground with kerosene: it's dropping from overhead. You know where you really don't want to get kerosene? Your EYES. It does not feel good. If you don't need to dump fuel on people, and with limited information right now it's unknown if it was necessary, don't do it. Please. It's weird anyone is downplaying the idea of a playground full of kids writhing in pain because they just got kerosene in their eyes because they're probably not wearing eye protection.

It causes me burning irritation in my eye when I splash a drop on my damn cheek ffs. And I'm wearing eye protection when I'm dealing with it.


Well said. I doubt anyone here would be willing to volunteer and inhale atomized jet fuel.
 
zippy
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:43 am

SeoulIncheon wrote:
787SIN wrote:
Looks like PAL did a better job in the end, ok their aircraft got damaged but it was repaired and put back into service. Whereas Delta dowsed people on the ground.

As for fuel, after doing plenty of fuel tank entries during maintenance I can confirm its horrible stuff and even with the use of barrier creams and other PPE I still managed to get fuel on the skin which has led to over sensitivity to it.


Nope. It means PAL was very close to a disaster and Delta played it safe. The PAL aircraft suffered heavy damage - means that without some luck that aircraft had, the aircraft could have burst into flames or so. Aeroflot flight 1492 burst into flames when it landed 1.6 tonnes over maximum landing weight. (Weight was 43.5 tonnes and it didn't have fuel dump functions)
We have 20/20 hindsight but I would rule out overweight landing as an option if we have other options such as dumping fuel.


As someone who is not a pilot but does work in an industry where root cause analysis is standard practice, one of the things I like about aviation in America is that there is often a focus on figuring out what went wrong and how to do better without assigning blame. People make mistakes and machines fail, but figuring out how to avoid repeat problems is paramount.

A few things come to mind that make this a very curious study:

- Pilot initially declined emergency services and stated things weren't critical
- Pilot indicated that they had the situation under control and that the engine had stopped surging
- ATC doesn't appear to announce fuel dumping
- Pilot requested a specific runway "due to weight"
- Pilot requested an expedited climb -- perhaps they weren't so heavy with only 181 people onboard?

While the pilots are within their rights to take extraordinary measures to get back on the ground safely dumping fuel over a populated area, at low altitude is not good. Period. Petrochemicals be it Jet A, gasoline, silver polish, whatever are all nasty stuff and dumping jet fuel all over someone is not something to be done without good reason.

So what happened? Did one of the pilots panic (a la the Atlas 767)? Were there problems controlling the aircraft (like the Aeroflot SSJ)? Did someone accidentally dump fuel? Time will tell…
 
zippy
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:46 am

IPFreely wrote:
zippy wrote:
ATC: So you don't need to dump fuel or anything like that?
DL89: Negative. Uh we'll be requesting runway 25R


Just listened, the actual quote is:

ATC: "So you don't need to hold to dump fuel or anything like that?"
DL89: "Negative"

Which was a correct statement. They were able to dump fuel without holding.


Right. For whatever reason I really struggle to understand the LAX controllers even though I'm a native Californian and speak English as a first language.
 
bennett123
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:12 am

Also there is a double negative here.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:37 am

At the end of the day an emergency is an emergency. If the aircraft lost one engine fair enough they wanted to get back on terra firma ASAP although I am sure that they could have dumped over the ocean. Either way i am sure these kids from that school are going to be wearing some nice gear in the near future!!

No one seems to have asked...was the flight cancelled? :stirthepot:
 
CaptHadley
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:41 am

zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?


That depends, are you asking as a suit that never has their life on the line or the person who has their life and the lives of all their passengers on the line.

Why didn’t you ask the question before they took off rather than after the event ? Do you think the crew has the same benefit of hindsight?


A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?
 
gia777
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:45 am

I smell a lawsuit is coming toward Delta
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
arfbool
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:49 am

The arrogance of some posters on this thread is absolutely breathtaking. Nobody should be subject to having jet fuel dumped upon them, let alone children. Aviation has a responsibility to do better. Dumping fuel is barbaric in the best of circumstances. We as an industry should be focusing on designing airplanes that can perform a MTOW landing with one engine inoperative safely with great certainty. Now that would be a technical achievement.
Last edited by arfbool on Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
asdf
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:50 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Starfuryt wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Speaking of fire, in the unlikely event of the dumped fuel landing on an open flame (wild fire maybe..for instance); is the dumped fuel stream/vapor cloud capable of igniting and making it up the 2000' feet all the way to the airplane? What precautions are take to avoid that (unlikely) event?


I'd say this is very unlikely due to the concentration being relatively low by the time it reaches the ground. I doubt that the front would have enough of a mixture to sustain constant propagation. However this is just conjecture based on back of the envelope math.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't engine out situation on a twin mean get back on the ground ASAP. Don't circle over the ocean for an hour to dump fuel?


NO!!
Planes fly just fine on one engine at max gross weight. I’m still shocked Philippines landed overweight.


yes, they fly well on one
but as long as one do not know the reason for the death engine one would like to be on the ground pretty soon

if its a compressor stall, and if its clearly a contained incident .... no debris beating through the hull ...no problem
one engine over the Jordan
anyway
there is another one below the wing on the opposite side of the plane
dont worry, be happy

but if its a unclear cause it can happen that the second engine dies a few minutes later
that opens up a unpleasant forecast for a forced gimli-glider landing without any enginepower over a big city
well, gives a good thrill for free ... but one dont need to have that in a full transport category aircraft
better safe than sorry
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:51 am

CaptHadley wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?


That depends, are you asking as a suit that never has their life on the line or the person who has their life and the lives of all their passengers on the line.

Why didn’t you ask the question before they took off rather than after the event ? Do you think the crew has the same benefit of hindsight?


A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?


Or maybe an evaluation of raising the mandatory retirement age to 65. I'm guessing most US widebody captains are quickly approaching it. There are plenty of studies that show you're just not as sharp at that age. And sometimes older people just can't be reaosned with. I would be very interested to hear from the FO of that flight and hear what really went on. It sounds like it was all very confusing with the different pilots talking to ATC. One of them should have been flying and one should have been monitoring.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SeoulIncheon
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:52 am

CaptHadley wrote:
zeke wrote:
D L X wrote:
Enough to make Much of a difference on landing weight?


That depends, are you asking as a suit that never has their life on the line or the person who has their life and the lives of all their passengers on the line.

Why didn’t you ask the question before they took off rather than after the event ? Do you think the crew has the same benefit of hindsight?


A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?


He knows that 1) the plane needs to land ASAP, 2) the plane is overweight to land due to excessive fuel, and 3) dumping fuel improves chance of passengers making out alive and uninjured. So he does what he needs to do: dump fuel. Common sense, and simple. The 777 Captain did whar he had to do.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:02 am

asdf wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Starfuryt wrote:

I'd say this is very unlikely due to the concentration being relatively low by the time it reaches the ground. I doubt that the front would have enough of a mixture to sustain constant propagation. However this is just conjecture based on back of the envelope math.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't engine out situation on a twin mean get back on the ground ASAP. Don't circle over the ocean for an hour to dump fuel?


NO!!
Planes fly just fine on one engine at max gross weight. I’m still shocked Philippines landed overweight.


yes, they fly well on one
but as long as one do not know the reason for the death engine one would like to be on the ground pretty soon

if its a compressor stall, and if its clearly a contained incident .... no debris beating through the hull ...no problem
one engine over the Jordan
anyway
there is another one below the wing on the opposite side of the plane
dont worry, be happy

but if its a unclear cause it can happen that the second engine dies a few minutes later
that opens up a unpleasant forecast for a forced gimli-glider landing without any enginepower over a big city
well, gives a good thrill for free ... but one dont need to have that in a full transport category aircraft
better safe than sorry



I think everyone is assuming there was a worse issue than is currently apparent to us because they watched that video with inappropriate engine noise. I'm pretty sure that was another aircraft off camera. The original (different) video I saw on the news while at work clearly sounded like the appropriate engine sound.
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zkojq
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:15 am

I'm siding with the flight crew here. They did what they had to do to get their aircraft safety back to terra firma and stopped before the runway end. Overweight landings are potentially fraught with danger. Ever kilo lighter the plane is, the less likely the brakes are to overheat and cause the tires to explode.


PITingres wrote:
gokmengs wrote:
...Can we wait a few more hours or couple days till we know what really happened that prompted the pilots to do what they did?


Nope. That's against the rules. You have to have several pages of outrage, fact-free finger pointing, and blather before any causal facts are permitted.


With that in mind I'd like to blame the children for not getting out of the way fast enough. ;) :duck:
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