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MatthewDB
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:50 pm

reltney wrote:
ATCJesus wrote:
Just for reference, ATC only requires 2000 ft above the highest obstacle for fuel dumping.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_4.html



Negative... I as a pilot can dump fuel anytime anywhere. It you need to do a “controlled dump”. 2000 ft is what the minimum altitude ATC can guide you while your dumping but you as a pilot can dump anytime you want. Indisputable.

When heavy on takeoff I instruct fuel dump with engine failure to the non flying pilot on my command ..well, unless we have a fire. the 747-400 at 870,000 was easy.one possible outcome was V1....ENGINE FAILURE.... rotate, FUEL. DUMP...POS RATE , GEAR UP....400ft...heading mode. Emergency aircraft, I make the rules.
To dump for an overweight landing....might be necessary due to runway length, blown tires...etc... usually doesn’t happen. As for the 777 dumping, he commanded it. I don’t question it as there was a reason. He is flying it His reason is good enough. Let the experts work the details.

Keep in mind, many non pilots and armchair ceo s try and complicate simple stuff. We as pilots are getting our passengers safely back on the ground. If you have a house underneath a departure from a major international airport, expect your swimming pool to have JP in it one day. If you don’t like it, move.

It’s not a bunch of cowboys out there. The planes will climb at gross weight with the loss of a single engine if everything is normal. Compound failure”gear stuck down” or something changes everything.

Cheers


I can relate a story that went down just like that. I was West of PDX out on the Columbia when a Fedex 747 ingested a gose into one of the engines on takeoff. It was slightly after rotation when it happened. They started dumping fuel immediately and rained on us. The airplane was definitely under 1000 feet as it went overhead. It left a heck of a sheen on the water, oiled the boat deck and us. I certainly wouldn't call it as "soaking our clothes" but you could feel the oily layer on everything.

I didn't realize I was supposed to sue afterwards. We just went on with our lives.
 
flybucky
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:09 pm

Any guesses when the plane will fly again? Does it need engine repair or just an inspection? Did it land overweight even after dumping fuel?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da
 
btfarrwm
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:16 pm

ATCJesus wrote:
Revelation wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
To be more accurate, ATC asked if they needed to HOLD for dumping fuel. The pilot's only answer to that question was "Negative". The question from ATC was ambiguous.

Does this situation get investigated by the FAA to the point that data on the CVR would be analysed? That would be very interesting.

Since we're all critics here, I'll point out that it's not ATC's job to be injecting things into the pilots thought processes such as dumping fuel while the pilots are already busy working on other things. If the crew wanted to be routed out to sea to dump fuel they would have asked. ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew. ATC also asked if they should roll equipment twice. If you don't get the first answer, just shut up and roll the damn equipment, better too much caution than not enough. These aren't overly strong criticisms but it seems the ATC side was not very mindful of the pilot's workload.


Not quite.... asking about holding to dump fuel is very important here. If they want to dump fuel he is going to turn him out to the ocean, if not then he’s going to turn him right back over LA to get back ASAP.



It would have been more clear for the pilots to say "requesting direct return to runway, we will dump fuel en route". However, I don't think ATC clearance is required to dump fuel in an emergency, and if the pilot didn't want to be rerouted, he answered the question asked by ATC and continued to work whatever problems were going on in the cockpit.
 
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ER757
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:17 pm

flybucky wrote:
Any guesses when the plane will fly again? Does it need engine repair or just an inspection? Did it land overweight even after dumping fuel?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da

It's probably a write-off :duck: :D

Seriously though - quite a few posts on here saying we'll find out all the details when the final report comes out. Does this incident require any sort of formal investigation and report from FAA and/or NTSB or is it a non-event in their eyes since there were no injuries and no serious damage to the aircraft (that we know of)?
 
n92r03
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:46 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:31 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
From calcs. for a B777 200 with 181 passengers and negligible cargo, and block fuel for the KLAX to ZSPD dispatch route (with winds aloft), with normal contingency, reserves, and alternate fuel, and based on the estimated fuel burn from the engine issue diversion point back to KLAX for landing...it would IMO require around 90,000 +/- lbs. of fuel to be jettisoned to land back at KLAX at MLW. The estimated jettison time for that fuel quantity would be around 17 minutes (btw same as actual time from the reported engine issue time to landing Rwy. 25R back at KLAX).


I was going to ask what the fuel dump rate is and how long would it take to dump enough fuel to be under max landing weight... Is that correct, that to would take only 17 minutes to dump enough fuel? I have no training in this, it just seems like a very short amount of time to dump enough fuel.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
Since we're all critics here, I'll point out that it's not ATC's job to be injecting things into the pilots thought processes such as dumping fuel while the pilots are already busy working on other things. If the crew wanted to be routed out to sea to dump fuel they would have asked. ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew. ATC also asked if they should roll equipment twice. If you don't get the first answer, just shut up and roll the damn equipment, better too much caution than not enough. These aren't overly strong criticisms but it seems the ATC side was not very mindful of the pilot's workload.


ATC needs to know what your plans are, and if you're not communicating what that is, expect them to ask.

If we're going to go down the workload excuse, how about the pilots voluntarily adding to their workload near landing by dumping fuel about 10 miles out and just 3 minutes from touchdown.

A possible explanation for why ATC did what it did is because the DL pilots took an unconventional approach to the problem. It begs the question as to if the pilots were up to the task presented before them. On the surface it doesn't. There needs to be a darn good reason to be dumping fuel at a low altitude over a heavily populated area when basically on final approach.
 
hivue
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew.


I believe this is required ATC procedure in situations like this.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
reggiet
Posts: 103
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:54 pm

BA777FO wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?


Or maybe an evaluation of raising the mandatory retirement age to 65. I'm guessing most US widebody captains are quickly approaching it. There are plenty of studies that show you're just not as sharp at that age. And sometimes older people just can't be reaosned with. I would be very interested to hear from the FO of that flight and hear what really went on. It sounds like it was all very confusing with the different pilots talking to ATC. One of them should have been flying and one should have been monitoring.


Regardless of age, they would have to demonztrate their continued competence of situations like this in a simulator every 6 months (at least we do in the UK). Regarding the comment about it being confusing with different pilots talking to ATC that's exactly how this situation should play out. If the Captain was handling, he would handle the aircraft up to the point the Engine surge/lim/stall checklist was complete and the after takeoff checklist complete. Up to that point the FO would be communicating with ATC. Then, the captain would hand over control of the aircraft to the FO so that the captain can manage the event. That'll involve diagnosis and information gathering from various sources, option generation, decision making and assigning tasks. The captain would then resume control after the landing checklist was complete to handle the landing. That's how a properly managed non-normal event should be tackled. It's absolutely normal that control of the aircraft and the radio would be switched at certain times.

I say this as someone with 4,000+ of 777 experience and nearly 10,000 hours total time in Boeing jet aircraft: very scenarios require an overweight landing outside of smoke, fire or fume events. If the problem was an engine stall and the engine returned to within normal parameters at idle or approaching idle then there's no immediate requirement to get it on the ground. Butbit's a big if that that was all that was wrong. On running their full diagnosis they may have uncovered other issues. We don't know, so let the investigation take its course.

LAX to PVG is what, a 12 hour flight? They'd have about 90,000kgs of fuel on board, they'd probably have to dump about 60,000kgs of that to get to MLW. That would take about 40 minutes - it jettisons from the centre tank quicker than the main tanks. The fuel jettison checklist on the 777 is not complicated, in fact, it takes about as much time to click through to it on the ECL as it does to action it. There was a suggestion earlier that someone woulf action that in an EFATO before asking for the gear up - that's nonsense! Fly the aircraft, goodness. Jettison checklist wouldn't come before the QRH for the engine issue was completed. The default setting to jettison is to dump to MLW so it is a straight forward checklist. Dumping out to sea would seem infinitely sensible, the Boeing 777/787 FCTM states that dumping should occur above 4,000ft to ensure complete vapourisation.

A few other questions that were asked regarding performance - at that kind of weight on a single engins approach speeds would be high. Vref+5 probably somewhere in the region of 170 knots. That's a lot of energy to lose on landing. 5 tonnes of dumping would make maybe 2 or 3 knots difference to final approach speed - so not much. Nor would it decrease the required landing distance by much more than 100-200m. At max autobrake or autobrake 4, and only one reverser those brakes will be warm. That's another issue that will need careful management after landing.

The whole scenario is rather strange, a contained engine issue doesn't require a landing ASAP, only nearest suitable.

However, unlike the Anetters baying for blood, hopefully lessons will be learned rather than a desire for a witch hunt.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Reggie in Austin
 
Redwood839
Posts: 228
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:16 pm

lowbank wrote:
Redwood839 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Here's another video, longer than the one posted upstream. Turn your sound on.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 76737?s=20

Does that sound like a Trent to you?

PS: if I were one of the parents of the children at this school, I'd be PIIIIISSED!


Totally sounds like a Trent. Looks like it's running about redline at 2700 RPM


Having worked at a RR site that tested Trents on a weekly basis, it sounds nothing like a normal heathy Trent 1000. It sounds like a piston engine.


That was sarcasm there buddy. Not like Trent's run redline at 2700 RPMs...
 
Redwood839
Posts: 228
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:17 pm

Boeing757rb211 wrote:
Redwood839 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Right?

But if it's DL89 and not a manipulated vid, something is terribly wrong with that engine(s).


I think it's safe to say that another plane was flying near the person who shot the video...



Thank You :idea: :checkmark: ...... Most common sense about the sound brought up yet.


Sadly not many people got it.
 
BravoOne
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:24 pm

D L X wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
D L X wrote:
Different scenario appears to be quite the understatement.

Compressor stall versus plane on fire.


Not different scenario. Swissair thought that what they had wasn't that serious; they didn't know the full extent of their situation, so they dutifully followed the checklist without a care in the world and spent a bunch of time to get ready for landing. Then...uh oh.

Point is that unless you can be sure what the actual deal is, you do the safest thing and get it on the ground.

Baloney! Swissair 111 knew they had an electrical fire. Unless DL89 indicated to ATC in the part of the transmission that was not recorded, we have no reason to believe DL89 thought they had anything other than a compressor stall.

This isn’t to say DL89 didn’t do the right thing, but I really cannot see the relevance of SR111 to this thread.



DLX please show us your cedentials for your posts.
 
BravoOne
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:26 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Revelation wrote:
D L X wrote:
I'm trying to ask an honest question here -- does it require that you land immediately, to the exclusion of staying out at sea to dump fuel?

No, all ETOPS says is you can now be much further away from a diversion airport, so I was wrong, BravoOne got it right:

BravoOne wrote:
ETOPS has little if anything to do with this event. They were taking off and still within 60 minutes of the airport. The FARs say land at the nearest suitable airport, which is what they did and that is covered in FAR Part 121 for this operation. ETOPS is covered in an Advisory Circular AC120-42B/C. We are talking semantics here so while we all know what we mean, there still a slight difference.:)

So I quoted the right statement but gave the wrong justification.

Jouhou wrote:
There's a chance they were being lazy and not flying out in a better area to dump. We don't know yet though.

C'mon, being lazy? Since you're a fan of videos, watch the damn ATC one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA90evz8gs ) and ask yourself if the voices sound like they are being lazy. My vote is they are being damned concerned.

The thing we do know is all their passengers survived at the unfortunate cost of the misting event causing some cases of eye and throat irritation. The plane is on the ground safely, the rest is for the lawyers to sort out.


My concern is the amount of people who think kerosene is fine to dump on people and that everyone complaining are a bunch of whiners who should be grateful for their free shower. And I dunno, don't you sort of have to declare an emergency at a busy airport like LAX if you ever want to land in a timely manner on the runway of your choosing when you're overweight?


No one said anything of the sort.
 
32andBelow
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:26 pm

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew.


I believe this is required ATC procedure in situations like this.

This is the procedure so the fire department knows their is gonna be a LOT of fuel if they plant it.
 
johns624
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 pm

BravoOne wrote:

DLX please show us your cedentials for your posts.
He says he's a lawyer. He must be drumming up clients.
 
DXTraveler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 pm

Has anyone seen the air these kids breath on a daily basis?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:48 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
ATC needs to know what your plans are, and if you're not communicating what that is, expect them to ask.

Right when he declared emergency he declared his intention to return to LAX. If his intention was to dump fuel he would have said that instead.

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew.

I believe this is required ATC procedure in situations like this.

The point is that the question was asked and answered twice, creating needless workload on the crew.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 pm

BravoOne wrote:
D L X wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Not different scenario. Swissair thought that what they had wasn't that serious; they didn't know the full extent of their situation, so they dutifully followed the checklist without a care in the world and spent a bunch of time to get ready for landing. Then...uh oh.

Point is that unless you can be sure what the actual deal is, you do the safest thing and get it on the ground.

Baloney! Swissair 111 knew they had an electrical fire. Unless DL89 indicated to ATC in the part of the transmission that was not recorded, we have no reason to believe DL89 thought they had anything other than a compressor stall.

This isn’t to say DL89 didn’t do the right thing, but I really cannot see the relevance of SR111 to this thread.



DLX please show us your cedentials for your posts.

Am I wrong? If so, state how.
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Revelation wrote:
No, all ETOPS says is you can now be much further away from a diversion airport, so I was wrong, BravoOne got it right:


So I quoted the right statement but gave the wrong justification.


C'mon, being lazy? Since you're a fan of videos, watch the damn ATC one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA90evz8gs ) and ask yourself if the voices sound like they are being lazy. My vote is they are being damned concerned.

The thing we do know is all their passengers survived at the unfortunate cost of the misting event causing some cases of eye and throat irritation. The plane is on the ground safely, the rest is for the lawyers to sort out.


My concern is the amount of people who think kerosene is fine to dump on people and that everyone complaining are a bunch of whiners who should be grateful for their free shower. And I dunno, don't you sort of have to declare an emergency at a busy airport like LAX if you ever want to land in a timely manner on the runway of your choosing when you're overweight?


No one said anything of the sort.

LOTS of people have been downplaying the concern of kerosene/Jet-A falling on people on the ground. LOTS.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:10 pm

If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath. Still very curious if the fuel dump was protocol given whatever the real situation was up there.
Last edited by TYWoolman on Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
masgniw
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:10 pm

DXTraveler wrote:
Has anyone seen the air these kids breath on a daily basis?


This take is a bad take and you should feel bad
 
flybucky
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:18 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath.

That's good. Although I'm sure they were probably also there to assess the impact and gather evidence too.
 
itisi
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:26 pm

I listened to the recording, did the pilots not say they won't dump fuel?

Should you dump fuel without informing ATC... at least so low over a city?

The second frequency did ask for the POB and fuel AGAIN.. This was a little annoying so I understand people talking about this.
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
BravoOne
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:28 pm

D L X wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
D L X wrote:
Different scenario appears to be quite the understatement.

Compressor stall versus plane on fire.


Not different scenario. Swissair thought that what they had wasn't that serious; they didn't know the full extent of their situation, so they dutifully followed the checklist without a care in the world and spent a bunch of time to get ready for landing. Then...uh oh.

Point is that unless you can be sure what the actual deal is, you do the safest thing and get it on the ground.

Baloney! Swissair 111 knew they had an electrical fire. Unless DL89 indicated to ATC in the part of the transmission that was not recorded, we have no reason to believe DL89 thought they had anything other than a compressor stall.

This isn’t to say DL89 didn’t do the right thing, but I really cannot see the relevance of SR111 to this thread.



I must have missed your reply. Are you an avaition attorney by chance?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:39 pm

D L X wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

My concern is the amount of people who think kerosene is fine to dump on people and that everyone complaining are a bunch of whiners who should be grateful for their free shower. And I dunno, don't you sort of have to declare an emergency at a busy airport like LAX if you ever want to land in a timely manner on the runway of your choosing when you're overweight?


No one said anything of the sort.

LOTS of people have been downplaying the concern of kerosene/Jet-A falling on people on the ground. LOTS.

Baloney.

On this thread we have people MAKING STUFF UP (people "soaked" in kerosene, children "writhing" in pain) and favoring their own personal anecdotes over actual news reports from the scene ( https://ktla.com/2020/01/14/lax-bound-a ... -assessed/ ) to overplay what happened in this event.

Please provide evidence to show some actual underplaying of events or admit you are off base.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MSPNWA
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:43 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath. Still very curious if the fuel dump was protocol given whatever the real situation was up there.


Hopefully it's true, but it's tough to take at face value when the same press release lies to me the by saying the dump was "required" as part of a "normal procedure" to reach a "safe" landing weight. It was anything but normal to dump at low altitude over people on essentially final approach, and it's highly questionable that it was required for a safe landing. An overweight landing is not unsafe.

Revelation wrote:
Please provide evidence to show some actual underplaying of events or admit you are off base.


Read the thread, Rev. There's both the media-like overreaction, and there's also downplaying. Neither are good.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:52 pm

As a former aircraft mechanic and pilot license holder I can bet that many pilots don't even know what fresh jet fuel smells like.
Pilots rarely come in contact with jet fuel, except the smell of exhaust with a rich mixture, which many people seem to like (although also quite toxic).
Get that on you once, you'll think twice about unplugging the dump valves and splashing it over densely populated area's "just to avoid a heavy landing check" or to avoid blowing some tires on landing.
As said previously, a couple of minutes of dumping isn't going to make a difference for a B772ER.

The smell of jet fuel is quite obnoxious, especially when you get it sprayed on you.
After a while you don't smell it anymore but when you get home everybody be like, "man you smell like fuel".

If you ingest it even as a spray, you can expect nausea, stomach spasms, vomiting and feeling generally unwell.
It's even worse when people don't know what it is, and an entire school's courtyard starts getting symptoms at the same time, it can be distressing.


The FAA will investigate. In principle, this goes down as an incident as minor injuries requiring treatment have been recorded.
This all being said, I would have done the same if both engines were acting weird, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Image

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-t ... us-schools


Also to those saying that jet fuel dumped like that can't ignite, yippie ka yay style, I beg to differ.
Even inert materials like cement can be ignited if in presenc eof an ignition source if they are atomised, and that's what you do when you dump fuel. Basically, you are mixing ram air with fuel, just as it happens inside the engines.
Anything dumped at a high enough altitude, the mixture is likely to be too poor to be ignited by the time it reaches the ground. 2000ft is high enough IMO to avoid ignition from power lines, but lower than that I wouldn't be so sure.
It could be an interesting experiment to see what happens if you dump fuel from below 1000ft on a high voltage power line.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Revelation
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:55 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Read the thread, Rev. There's both the media-like overreaction, and there's also downplaying. Neither are good.

Fair enough. On reflection, there's a lot of everything in this thread.

I will say I think it is a non-sequitur to point out the area has a lot of pollution already. It may be true but is irrelevant.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:55 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I must have missed your reply. Are you an avaition attorney by chance?

If you missed my reply, try Ctrl-F.

No. I am not an aviation attorney. I haven’t done av law in 15 years. But enough about me.

If my statement was incorrect, I welcome correction.
 
N757ST
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:55 pm

reltney wrote:
ATCJesus wrote:
Just for reference, ATC only requires 2000 ft above the highest obstacle for fuel dumping.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_4.html



Negative... I as a pilot can dump fuel anytime anywhere. It you need to do a “controlled dump”. 2000 ft is what the minimum altitude ATC can guide you while your dumping but you as a pilot can dump anytime you want. Indisputable.

When heavy on takeoff I instruct fuel dump with engine failure to the non flying pilot on my command ..well, unless we have a fire. the 747-400 at 870,000 was easy.one possible outcome was V1....ENGINE FAILURE.... rotate, FUEL. DUMP...POS RATE , GEAR UP....400ft...heading mode. Emergency aircraft, I make the rules.
To dump for an overweight landing....might be necessary due to runway length, blown tires...etc... usually doesn’t happen. As for the 777 dumping, he commanded it. I don’t question it as there was a reason. He is flying it His reason is good enough. Let the experts work the details.

Keep in mind, many non pilots and armchair ceo s try and complicate simple stuff. We as pilots are getting our passengers safely back on the ground. If you have a house underneath a departure from a major international airport, expect your swimming pool to have JP in it one day. If you don’t like it, move.

It’s not a bunch of cowboys out there. The planes will climb at gross weight with the loss of a single engine if everything is normal. Compound failure”gear stuck down” or something changes everything.

Cheers


Your SOP is to fuel dump before even the gear is up on a single engine failure? You’re dumping fuel before even assessing the situation, like whether the motor can be recovered?

I’m an airline pilot too, been so for many years, never heard of anything like that. As for questioning the pilots, you either follow your QRH or you don’t. If you violate something in your QRH you have that discretion (such as dumping fuel below a company specified altitude), but actions have consequences and when the jet is on the ground you have to be able to explain why you did it.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 508
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:56 pm

flybucky wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath.

That's good. Although I'm sure they were probably also there to assess the impact and gather evidence too.


True, to assess what the real damage is, and clearly from a publicity standpoint showing up is better than hiding. To me Delta provided the best damage- control attempt by being there. Hopefully no real health concerns from it.

About the emergency: The pilots got real nervous about the situation (rightfully so!) and reacted in a way by putting the passengers first and getting the aircraft down safely to the ground as fast as possible. If dumping fuel was necessary at the same time, then so be it. A stalled engine is no joke!
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 508
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:02 am

MSPNWA wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath. Still very curious if the fuel dump was protocol given whatever the real situation was up there.


Hopefully it's true, but it's tough to take at face value when the same press release lies to me the by saying the dump was "required" as part of a "normal procedure" to reach a "safe" landing weight. It was anything but normal to dump at low altitude over people on essentially final approach, and it's highly questionable that it was required for a safe landing. An overweight landing is not unsafe.



I would have to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt here. They are the commanders of their ship. I am sure they knew of the consequences. It's a tough call, but the pilots made the call and to them it was the right one for themselves, crew, passengers and company aircraft. One can talk about procedure all you want, but when put in that situation, you do what you gotta do.
 
catiii
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:14 am

TYWoolman wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath. Still very curious if the fuel dump was protocol given whatever the real situation was up there.


Hopefully it's true, but it's tough to take at face value when the same press release lies to me the by saying the dump was "required" as part of a "normal procedure" to reach a "safe" landing weight. It was anything but normal to dump at low altitude over people on essentially final approach, and it's highly questionable that it was required for a safe landing. An overweight landing is not unsafe.



I would have to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt here. They are the commanders of their ship. I am sure they knew of the consequences. It's a tough call, but the pilots made the call and to them it was the right one for themselves, crew, passengers and company aircraft. One can talk about procedure all you want, but when put in that situation, you do what you gotta do.


And yet by their own admission is was not a critical situation so the “you do what you gotta do” argument doesn’t really hold a whole lot of water.
 
freakyrat
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:19 am

hivue wrote:
Revelation wrote:
ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew.


I believe this is required ATC procedure in situations like this.


It is a required ATC procedure to inquire the Nature Of the Emergency, Persons on Board, and Fuel On Board In Time, Any Special Requests. I had a pilot tell ,me once when I was riding jumpseat that in the event of an emergency with high flightdeck workload that ATC could make a rough estimate and get this specific information from the company.
 
496TFS
Posts: 22
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:28 am

Good grief. The crew dumps fuel all over LA and only hits a school with kids in the playground? What great precision dumping!
 
D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:50 am

More discussion fodder: FAA says they didn’t seek permission to dump.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 476137002/

Doesn’t move the needle for me, but curious.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:06 am

All of the elementary school faculties and children's parents should sue the heck out of Delta. Not to mention all the effected neighborhoods.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8280
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:15 am

What is the consensus on landing weight? A 772 with 181 pax, <209 tons of fuel, assuming they were able to dump for 17 minutes.

Are we sure they landed on one engine?
All posts are just opinions.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2125
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:41 am

It seems that most pilots choose one of two obvious solutions to an engine problem after take-off. Unfortunately this crew selected option #3.
mxaxai wrote:
It certainly isn't common for aircraft with an engine issue to return this quickly _and_ dump fuel after an engine failure:

Option #1
- dumped fuel for 80 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4d1692ef&opt=0
- landed 60 minutes after departure http://avherald.com/h?article=4cfd755f&opt=0
- dumped fuel for 75 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4cee877b&opt=0
- dumped fuel for 60 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4ccfafd6&opt=0
- dumped fuel for 90 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb7f09f&opt=0
- dumped fuel for 75 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb7362d&opt=0
- dumped fuel for 110 minutes http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb7362d&opt=0

Option #2
- landed 23 minutes after departure presumably without dumping fuel http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb6a09d&opt=0
- landed 25 minutes after departure without dumping fuel http://avherald.com/h?article=49fee6cb&opt=0
- landed 27 minutes after departure "heavy" http://avherald.com/h?article=4ca986bf&opt=0
- landed 15 minutes after departure, no report of dumping fuel http://avherald.com/h?article=4c99b17b&opt=0
- landed 30 minutes after departure overweight without dumping fuel, 11 tyres deflated http://avherald.com/h?article=49e9311d&opt=0
- landed 20 minutes after departure overweight without dumping fuel http://avherald.com/h?article=4cb98862&opt=0
- landed 8 minutes after departure overweight without dumping fuel http://avherald.com/h?article=4b4ea714&opt=0

mxaxai wrote:
Most crews seem to decide either that the situation is safe enough to fly a holding pattern and burn or dump fuel,...
…..or that the situation is urgent enough to warrant an overweight landing.

Of course there is the possibility that DL772 encountered additional problems that warranted their actions - but neither the pilots, Delta, nor ATC transcripts have suggested anything so far. In fact the suggestion is that they were able to recover the "failed" engine, to some extent at least. Most curious. :scratchchin:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
twinotter
Posts: 252
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:42 am

zkojq wrote:
Overweight landings are potentially fraught with danger. Ever kilo lighter the plane is, the less likely the brakes are to overheat and cause the tires to explode.


Right. Especially on the dreaded runway 25R at LAX with only 12,900 feet available.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:45 am

twinotter wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Overweight landings are potentially fraught with danger. Ever kilo lighter the plane is, the less likely the brakes are to overheat and cause the tires to explode.


Right. Especially on the dreaded runway 25R at LAX with only 12,900 feet available.


Lol. Time will tell.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
FSDan
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:55 am

TYWoolman wrote:
If this wasn't reported yet here, per Delta News on Delta.com, Delta actually sent people to the schools to help clean. Cool they stepped up to the plate like that in the aftermath.


Get that outta here! This makes it sound like DL is run by humans, which is inconsistent with the proven FACT that DL is evil, and enjoys lying to the public and occasionally dumping fuel on them. [/sarcasm]
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
reggiet
Posts: 103
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:00 am

32andBelow wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?


It’s called an emergency and the pilots acted in how they deemed necessary to return to LAX ASAP


That doesn’t excuse them from explaining that they were dumping fuel to ATC so ATC could make the required transmissions to other aircraft and give them vectors to a better area (the ocean). They were getting vectors anyways so what would they care if the vectors were over the ocean. They weren’t even ready to shoot the approach when SOCAL get them resequenced.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
Reggie in Austin
 
reggiet
Posts: 103
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:08 am

ATCJesus wrote:
Revelation wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
To be more accurate, ATC asked if they needed to HOLD for dumping fuel. The pilot's only answer to that question was "Negative". The question from ATC was ambiguous.

Does this situation get investigated by the FAA to the point that data on the CVR would be analysed? That would be very interesting.

Since we're all critics here, I'll point out that it's not ATC's job to be injecting things into the pilots thought processes such as dumping fuel while the pilots are already busy working on other things. If the crew wanted to be routed out to sea to dump fuel they would have asked. ATC also asked for souls onboard and fuel amount twice, creating needless workload on the crew. ATC also asked if they should roll equipment twice. If you don't get the first answer, just shut up and roll the damn equipment, better too much caution than not enough. These aren't overly strong criticisms but it seems the ATC side was not very mindful of the pilot's workload.


Not quite.... asking about holding to dump fuel is very important here. If they want to dump fuel he is going to turn him out to the ocean, if not then he’s going to turn him right back over LA to get back ASAP.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Reggie in Austin
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:11 am

Wow sounds like a lot of people here are not pilots and have never had an emergency before.

Which is ok, I don't expect everyone here to be pilots but for heaven's sake chill out and try to understand a little before jumping to conclusions

What is wrong with "hmm, I don't know"? "I don't have enough information to make a determination yet"?

Guess it's human nature to need to know everything RIGHT NOW and form a concrete opinion

And that's not to say the pilots are free from blame. Maybe they are, maybe not. But the confidence some people have in their conclusions is completely irresponsible.

As a pilot (not Delta, not yet but hopefully one day!) that has more knowledge on flying and handling emergencies than a good chunk of people on here, "I'm not sure what exactly happened. I'm not sure of the severity of the situation, I'm not sure of their thought process and how strong or flawed it might have been. I've been in emergencies before and of course I could nitpick myself to death drinking a beer the next day."

And that's not a brag, I'm just trying to say that the people here that actually know what they're talking about (trust me, there are ton here with more experience than I'll ever have) are way less dramatic and judge-y. Doesn't that tell you something?



PS: whether completely guilty or innocent of wrongdoing, DL should absolutely cover any damages to anyone on the ground
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:13 am

32andBelow wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
If Delta were smart, they usually are from a PR standpoint, I would have roundtrip tickets booked in these kids names to Disney for spring break, as well as hotel and allowance for the family. A tour of the Delta facilities at LAX to meet some pilots etc., and a donation to a college fund for these kids as well as a few years of paid health insurance. There's nothing good of this that will come from fighting it. They already lost the fight in the court of public opinion, which is the one that ultimately counts (UA found this out a few years ago).

They live in LA. They don’t need to go to Disney world lmao.


Disney world >>>>>>> Disney land
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
DL777200LR
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:15 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:16 am

32andBelow wrote:
DL777200LR wrote:
CaptHadley wrote:

A 777 Captain makes around 300 grand a year. He better damn well know what to do and how to do it. Dumping fuel that low and over populated areas scream, "I'm over my head!" Maybe Delta's hiring practices need reevaluating?


It’s called an emergency and the pilots acted in how they deemed necessary to return to LAX ASAP

That doesn’t excuse them from explaining that they were dumping fuel to ATC so ATC could make the required transmissions to other aircraft and give them vectors to a better area (the ocean). They were getting vectors anyways so what would they care if the vectors were over the ocean. They weren’t even ready to shoot the approach when SOCAL get them resequenced.


Definitely not an excuse, and it was an error that occurred during an emergency Situation so going to the point of salary and hiring practices is ridiculous.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE90-115B on engine start.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1766
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:19 am

flybucky wrote:
Any guesses when the plane will fly again? Does it need engine repair or just an inspection? Did it land overweight even after dumping fuel?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n860da


Based on the posts here DL will just wing it and fly it out ASAP cause who cares?
@DadCelo
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:25 am

RightRudder wrote:
All of the elementary school faculties and children's parents should sue the heck out of Delta. Not to mention all the effected neighborhoods.


Residents along the flight path should contact their Congressperson. There should be a public hearing.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:31 am

D L X wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I must have missed your reply. Are you an avaition attorney by chance?

If you missed my reply, try Ctrl-F.

No. I am not an aviation attorney. I haven’t done av law in 15 years. But enough about me.

If my statement was incorrect, I welcome correction.



I haven't seen anything from that resembles a knowledge of flight operations and specifically the 777-200ER.

Good night:)
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:32 am

Western727 wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

You're telling me an elementary kid wouldn't want to fly to Orlando to see Mickey and Company? You think they'd really care? And really it wouldn't even be about them, it would be about putting some good news in the press.


No what I think he is saying is that their is Disneyland in LA. If they want to see Mickey, the flight isn’t necessary ;)


Indeed. And as someone who grew up til age 7 in southern California, I can attest that Orlando isn't all that attractive to kids there; the LA basin has everything Orlando offers and more, and to boot the weather in the LA basin is generally better.


The consideration would be A LOT more if this would of happened in Orlando, FL.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
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