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cschleic
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:36 am

MatthewDB wrote:
reltney wrote:
ATCJesus wrote:
Just for reference, ATC only requires 2000 ft above the highest obstacle for fuel dumping.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_4.html



Negative... I as a pilot can dump fuel anytime anywhere. It you need to do a “controlled dump”. 2000 ft is what the minimum altitude ATC can guide you while your dumping but you as a pilot can dump anytime you want. Indisputable.

When heavy on takeoff I instruct fuel dump with engine failure to the non flying pilot on my command ..well, unless we have a fire. the 747-400 at 870,000 was easy.one possible outcome was V1....ENGINE FAILURE.... rotate, FUEL. DUMP...POS RATE , GEAR UP....400ft...heading mode. Emergency aircraft, I make the rules.
To dump for an overweight landing....might be necessary due to runway length, blown tires...etc... usually doesn’t happen. As for the 777 dumping, he commanded it. I don’t question it as there was a reason. He is flying it His reason is good enough. Let the experts work the details.

Keep in mind, many non pilots and armchair ceo s try and complicate simple stuff. We as pilots are getting our passengers safely back on the ground. If you have a house underneath a departure from a major international airport, expect your swimming pool to have JP in it one day. If you don’t like it, move.

It’s not a bunch of cowboys out there. The planes will climb at gross weight with the loss of a single engine if everything is normal. Compound failure”gear stuck down” or something changes everything.

Cheers


I can relate a story that went down just like that. I was West of PDX out on the Columbia when a Fedex 747 ingested a gose into one of the engines on takeoff. It was slightly after rotation when it happened. They started dumping fuel immediately and rained on us. The airplane was definitely under 1000 feet as it went overhead. It left a heck of a sheen on the water, oiled the boat deck and us. I certainly wouldn't call it as "soaking our clothes" but you could feel the oily layer on everything.

I didn't realize I was supposed to sue afterwards. We just went on with our lives.


Wow, when did that happen? Don't recall seeing anything about it and would think there would have been. Very few 747s at PDX.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:37 am

catiii wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Hopefully it's true, but it's tough to take at face value when the same press release lies to me the by saying the dump was "required" as part of a "normal procedure" to reach a "safe" landing weight. It was anything but normal to dump at low altitude over people on essentially final approach, and it's highly questionable that it was required for a safe landing. An overweight landing is not unsafe.



I would have to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt here. They are the commanders of their ship. I am sure they knew of the consequences. It's a tough call, but the pilots made the call and to them it was the right one for themselves, crew, passengers and company aircraft. One can talk about procedure all you want, but when put in that situation, you do what you gotta do.


And yet by their own admission is was not a critical situation so the “you do what you gotta do” argument doesn’t really hold a whole lot of water.


Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)
 
BravoOne
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:38 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Wow sounds like a lot of people here are not pilots and have never had an emergency before.

Which is ok, I don't expect everyone here to be pilots but for heaven's sake chill out and try to understand a little before jumping to conclusions

What is wrong with "hmm, I don't know"? "I don't have enough information to make a determination yet"?

Guess it's human nature to need to know everything RIGHT NOW and form a concrete opinion

And that's not to say the pilots are free from blame. Maybe they are, maybe not. But the confidence some people have in their conclusions is completely irresponsible.

As a pilot (not Delta, not yet but hopefully one day!) that has more knowledge on flying and handling emergencies than a good chunk of people on here, "I'm not sure what exactly happened. I'm not sure of the severity of the situation, I'm not sure of their thought process and how strong or flawed it might have been. I've been in emergencies before and of course I could nitpick myself to death drinking a beer the next day."

And that's not a brag, I'm just trying to say that the people here that actually know what they're talking about (trust me, there are ton here with more experience than I'll ever have) are way less dramatic and judge-y. Doesn't that tell you something?



PS: whether completely guilty or innocent of wrongdoing, DL should absolutely cover any damages to anyone on the ground



Everyone should recall that at this point in time there were four well qualified pilots on the flight deck. Not likely that all four were not aware of the fuel jettison in progress. Time will tell as then investigation moves forward. Getting factual information from the net. TV or where ever will not supersede the final truth. Glad no one was hurt.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:40 am

496TFS wrote:
Good grief. The crew dumps fuel all over LA and only hits a school with kids in the playground? What great precision dumping!


Brilliant!
 
dstblj52
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:44 am

TYWoolman wrote:
catiii wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I would have to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt here. They are the commanders of their ship. I am sure they knew of the consequences. It's a tough call, but the pilots made the call and to them it was the right one for themselves, crew, passengers and company aircraft. One can talk about procedure all you want, but when put in that situation, you do what you gotta do.


And yet by their own admission is was not a critical situation so the “you do what you gotta do” argument doesn’t really hold a whole lot of water.


Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)

Go checkout the airline pilot central thread on this their not hugely impressed by their conduct
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:52 am

dstblj52 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
catiii wrote:

And yet by their own admission is was not a critical situation so the “you do what you gotta do” argument doesn’t really hold a whole lot of water.


Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)

Go checkout the airline pilot central thread on this their not hugely impressed by their conduct


Can you please direct me to the airline pilot central thread? Not sure whereabouts I can find it. I get some may not be impressed when you are within the pilot circle, especially when it makes a group look like they don't know what they're doing. But from a passenger standpoint, he could be my pilot any day.
 
dstblj52
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:56 am

TYWoolman wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)

Go checkout the airline pilot central thread on this their not hugely impressed by their conduct


Can you please direct me to the airline pilot central thread? Not sure whereabouts I can find it. I get some may not be impressed when you are within the pilot circle, especially when it makes a group look like they don't know what they're doing. But from a passenger standpoint, he could be my pilot any day.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delt ... er-la.html
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:10 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
As a former aircraft mechanic and pilot license holder I can bet that many pilots don't even know what fresh jet fuel smells like.
Pilots rarely come in contact with jet fuel, except the smell of exhaust with a rich mixture, which many people seem to like (although also quite toxic).
Get that on you once, you'll think twice about unplugging the dump valves and splashing it over densely populated area's "just to avoid a heavy landing check" or to avoid blowing some tires on landing.
As said previously, a couple of minutes of dumping isn't going to make a difference for a B772ER.


Don’t agree with what you are saying. I have had over the years many fuels over me, to the point where my underwear was soaked. Took a shower and put fresh clothes on. Not something I would go out of my way to do, but in my experience not disabling either.

Any reduction in weight makes a difference in energy, and speed.

N757ST wrote:
reltney wrote:
When heavy on takeoff I instruct fuel dump with engine failure to the non flying pilot on my command ..well, unless we have a fire. the 747-400 at 870,000 was easy.one possible outcome was V1....ENGINE FAILURE.... rotate, FUEL. DUMP...POS RATE , GEAR UP....400ft...heading mode. Emergency aircraft, I make the rules.


Your SOP is to fuel dump before even the gear is up on a single engine failure? You’re dumping fuel before even assessing the situation, like whether the motor can be recovered?


Yeah I read that post myself and thought B/S. A jumbo is fine with one out even at max weight. On a quad the time to dump immediately us when you have multiple failures.

twinotter wrote:
Right. Especially on the dreaded runway 25R at LAX with only 12,900 feet available.


When taxing out at heavy weight it is when tyres and brakes can be warm up a lot.

When returning single engine your coming in faster than normal, also at a high gross weight. The kenetic energy is 0.5*m•v^2, there is no guarantee that 12500 ft will be long enough.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:13 am

After reading airlinepilotforums.com a bit, my initial opinion is this: Although the fuel dump may have been unnecessary, there may be a legitimate context in the cockpit which necessitated the dump making it excusable/unavoidable.
 
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DL717
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:21 am

dstblj52 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
catiii wrote:

And yet by their own admission is was not a critical situation so the “you do what you gotta do” argument doesn’t really hold a whole lot of water.


Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)

Go checkout the airline pilot central thread on this their not hugely impressed by their conduct


Why bother? The threads sound the same.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:38 am

DL717 wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Maybe it doesn't from a legal standpoint. But I would fly with that pilot any day, because regardless of wherever he dumped or whether he notified the FAA beforehand, he had the passengers' safety in mind and the bird landed safely. I hope other Delta pilots are giving him a handshake on a job well done, and that any consequences for the pilot is maybe additional training on being more trusting of an aircraft that has engine trouble, enough to satisfy the time necessary to dump over the ocean and kill some fish. (A little sarcasm there.)

Go checkout the airline pilot central thread on this their not hugely impressed by their conduct


Why bother? The threads sound the same.


But here is an interesting take: One poster there alluded to the fact why should you go over the ocean to check your dead engine only to discover what caused that malfunction now causes the other.(?) And why not dump as soon as possible just in case the weight causes burnt brakes or overshooting the runway.(?) I think at the end of the day these pilots did what they had to do! All this school PR is just an unfortunate consequence, and may I dare say over-exagerrated by those who simply just don't want aviation around them!
Last edited by TYWoolman on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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longhauler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:41 am

In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:46 am

longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.


I second that!
 
FSDan
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:54 am

ldvaviation wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
All of the elementary school faculties and children's parents should sue the heck out of Delta. Not to mention all the effected neighborhoods.


Residents along the flight path should contact their Congressperson. There should be a public hearing.


Yes, if anyone can make this right, it's Congress!! They've accomplished so much already over the last few sessions, and I'm sure they'd be happy to help find whichever Russian actors infiltrated Ed Bastian's inner circle and convinced him to make the call to the pilots to dump the fuel! :duck:
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
wjcandee
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:55 am

This may explain it: I just read that the discharge was automatically initiated by the 777-200's MCADUMP software, which Boeing previously had not disclosed to pilots, but which had been disclosed to airlines on page 4785, footnote 3, of the maintenance documentation.
 
32andBelow
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:02 am

longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:11 am

32andBelow wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


Agreed. Unless you are having control issues I can't fathom any reason not to inform ATC. There was most certainly an augmented crew on this flight and one of them could have communicated what was going on.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:13 am

32andBelow wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:20 am

TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!


Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.
 
32andBelow
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:23 am

TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!

ATC would never tell him he can’t dump fuel. They would just make announcements to other traffic as well as not vector any other planes directly below them. What if some some CRJ got fuel into both engines?

There’s additional separation requirements when an aircraft is fuel dumping. Like an additional 1000 feet vertical for aircraft below you.

9−4−4. SEPARATION MINIMA
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
a. IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Para 4−5−1, Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it. 3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
b. VFR radar-identified aircraft by 5 miles and in accordance with Para 5−6−1, Application.
9−4−5. INFORMATION DISSEMINATION
a. If you are in contact with an aircraft when it starts dumping fuel, inform other controllers and facilities which might be concerned. Facilities concerned must broadcast an advisory on appropriate radio frequencies at 3−minute intervals until the dumping stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING IN PROGRESS OVER (location) AT (altitude) BY (type aircraft) (flight direction).
b. Broadcast a terminating advisory when the fuel dumping operation is completed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING OVER (location) TERMINATED.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:25 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!


Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.


I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.
 
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longhauler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:26 am

32andBelow wrote:
Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


What is “doubtful” is that until the FDR and CVR data are published, I wouldn’t judge someone’s actions until knowing exactly what was going on in the cockpit.

As I said, the end result was good. Let’s see what happened in between .....
Last edited by longhauler on Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:26 am

TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.

Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!



You are not a pilot so you don’t understand. There is never a rush unless you are on fire. If you rush you make mistakes just like dumping fuel on final approach.

An airplane WILL FLY just find on one engine. A compressor stall is NOT catastrophic and can be stopped most of the time be reducing power and Angle of Attack. Most likely this crew still had the engine running in a degraded state.

I have no qualms with the crew dumping fuel to get under weight but there is zero reason they could not do it at 8,000 feet out over the pacific. You mentioned the crew didn’t want to waste time in case the other engine had the same problem......this is statistically improbable as a compressor stall is engine dependent. With that said your point is valid if an engine flames out and I don’t know why. Could be contaminated fuel or a fuel leak.......but not the case here.

This crew has a lot to answer for and I do not envy them. The FAA is less than pleased I can assure you.
 
32andBelow
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:27 am

longhauler wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


What is “doubtful” is that until the FDR and CVR data are published, I wouldn’t judge someone’s actions until knowing exactly what was going on in the cockpit.

The whole tape is online. We know they just didn’t tell them. And they were communicating just fine with atc. ATC never would have overridden their decision they just would have use the fuel dumping procedures to keep everyone else safe.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:30 am

TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!


Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.


I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.


I don't see the point in commenting any further with you if you believe the captain can do as he or she pleases at any time. But I would advise you to contact the FAA and ask if declaring an emergency is a license to do whatever you please. Spoiler alert...it isn't.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:30 am

TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!


Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.


I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.


Because this isn’t how we train them. This isn’t how our flight manual is written and it isn’t how our regulations are written. As I mentioned earlier in this thread declaring an emergency is NOT a get out of jail free card. You must answer for every decision. Just look at the hounding Sully got from the FAA.....they told him he could have made it back to LGA and were ready to hang him.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:30 am

32andBelow wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Would you also Just not inform ATC you were fuel dumping after they asked you? Doubtful.


I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!

ATC would never tell him he can’t dump fuel. They would just make announcements to other traffic as well as not vector any other planes directly below them. What if some some CRJ got fuel into both engines?

There’s additional separation requirements when an aircraft is fuel dumping. Like an additional 1000 feet vertical for aircraft below you.

9−4−4. SEPARATION MINIMA
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
a. IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Para 4−5−1, Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it. 3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
b. VFR radar-identified aircraft by 5 miles and in accordance with Para 5−6−1, Application.
9−4−5. INFORMATION DISSEMINATION
a. If you are in contact with an aircraft when it starts dumping fuel, inform other controllers and facilities which might be concerned. Facilities concerned must broadcast an advisory on appropriate radio frequencies at 3−minute intervals until the dumping stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING IN PROGRESS OVER (location) AT (altitude) BY (type aircraft) (flight direction).
b. Broadcast a terminating advisory when the fuel dumping operation is completed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING OVER (location) TERMINATED.


Ok. Interesting info on that. I am no technical expert. But he was low enough to determine there should have been no aircraft below him though (regarding vertical spacing.) He was on final.
 
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longhauler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:31 am

32andBelow wrote:
The whole tape is online. We know they just didn’t tell them. And they were communicating just fine with atc. ATC never would have overridden their decision they just would have use the fuel dumping procedures to keep everyone else safe.


And ..... doesn’t that make you curious what was going on in the cockpit? ATC tapes are only a small part of the equation.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:33 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.


I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.


I don't see the point in commenting any further with you if you believe the captain can do as he or she pleases at any time. But I would advise you to contact the FAA and ask if declaring an emergency is a license to do whatever you please. Spoiler alert...it isn't.


I get your point. But we are not talking about aerobatics here. The pilot believed there was an emergency and he dealt with it how he needed to regardless of the consequences IMO.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:38 am

TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.


I don't see the point in commenting any further with you if you believe the captain can do as he or she pleases at any time. But I would advise you to contact the FAA and ask if declaring an emergency is a license to do whatever you please. Spoiler alert...it isn't.


I get your point. But we are not talking about aerobatics here. The pilot believed there was an emergency and he dealt with it how he needed to regardless of the consequences IMO.


Yep and compromised the safety of those around him......
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:39 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Those poor pilots on Alakaka 261 had a much bigger problem to deal with and they were still in communication with ATC the entire time. A compressor stall is quite routine and shouldn't even cause a sweat.


I can understand that. Pilot's have different styles and abilities and experiences with emergencies. But why second guess a pilot's ability to land a plane they are in command of? It's his bird. He can "emergency" it safely however he damn wants to get his desired outcome of a safe landing IMO.


Because this isn’t how we train them. This isn’t how our flight manual is written and it isn’t how our regulations are written. As I mentioned earlier in this thread declaring an emergency is NOT a get out of jail free card. You must answer for every decision. Just look at the hounding Sully got from the FAA.....they told him he could have made it back to LGA and were ready to hang him.


Understood. I know all those things you mentioned must be respected. Never knew about the FAA hounding Sully, but let's face it, the proxy doing the hounding was the insurance carriers.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:41 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I don't see the point in commenting any further with you if you believe the captain can do as he or she pleases at any time. But I would advise you to contact the FAA and ask if declaring an emergency is a license to do whatever you please. Spoiler alert...it isn't.


I get your point. But we are not talking about aerobatics here. The pilot believed there was an emergency and he dealt with it how he needed to regardless of the consequences IMO.


Yep and compromised the safety of those around him......


Again, I am not a pilot. But his decisions must be based on his safety first, especially if there was a perceived threat. With all the training pilots have, I give him the benefit of the doubt that his training necessitated this decision, regardless of the consequences.
 
RightRudder
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:01 am

Revelation wrote:
D L X wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

No one said anything of the sort.

LOTS of people have been downplaying the concern of kerosene/Jet-A falling on people on the ground. LOTS.

Baloney.

On this thread we have people MAKING STUFF UP (people "soaked" in kerosene, children "writhing" in pain) and favoring their own personal anecdotes over actual news reports from the scene ( https://ktla.com/2020/01/14/lax-bound-a ... -assessed/ ) to overplay what happened in this event.

Please provide evidence to show some actual underplaying of events or admit you are off base.


There would be a class action within hours If this would of been over Orange County.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
32andBelow
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:06 am

TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I am not a pilot but I have to say one has to give the pilot the benefit of the doubt. I believe the initial question was dump "and hold." According to the pilots' actions there was no time for a hold. Had the pilots' indicated that they were going to dump on the way in, wouldn't that have clouded the communication with protocol banter from ATC as to why that wouldn't be a good idea? These pilots knew what they were doing. Get the bird down!

ATC would never tell him he can’t dump fuel. They would just make announcements to other traffic as well as not vector any other planes directly below them. What if some some CRJ got fuel into both engines?

There’s additional separation requirements when an aircraft is fuel dumping. Like an additional 1000 feet vertical for aircraft below you.

9−4−4. SEPARATION MINIMA
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
a. IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Para 4−5−1, Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it. 3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
b. VFR radar-identified aircraft by 5 miles and in accordance with Para 5−6−1, Application.
9−4−5. INFORMATION DISSEMINATION
a. If you are in contact with an aircraft when it starts dumping fuel, inform other controllers and facilities which might be concerned. Facilities concerned must broadcast an advisory on appropriate radio frequencies at 3−minute intervals until the dumping stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING IN PROGRESS OVER (location) AT (altitude) BY (type aircraft) (flight direction).
b. Broadcast a terminating advisory when the fuel dumping operation is completed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING OVER (location) TERMINATED.


Ok. Interesting info on that. I am no technical expert. But he was low enough to determine there should have been no aircraft below him though (regarding vertical spacing.) He was on final.

He we vectored across final and airplanes underneath him got in front of him and he was put back in so there was definitely airplanes under him.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:07 am

32andBelow wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
ATC would never tell him he can’t dump fuel. They would just make announcements to other traffic as well as not vector any other planes directly below them. What if some some CRJ got fuel into both engines?

There’s additional separation requirements when an aircraft is fuel dumping. Like an additional 1000 feet vertical for aircraft below you.

9−4−4. SEPARATION MINIMA
Separate known aircraft from the aircraft dumping fuel as follows:
a. IFR aircraft by one of the following:
1. 1,000 feet above it; or in accordance with Para 4−5−1, Vertical Separation Minima, whichever is greater.
2. 2,000 feet below it. 3. 5 miles radar.
4. 5 miles laterally.
b. VFR radar-identified aircraft by 5 miles and in accordance with Para 5−6−1, Application.
9−4−5. INFORMATION DISSEMINATION
a. If you are in contact with an aircraft when it starts dumping fuel, inform other controllers and facilities which might be concerned. Facilities concerned must broadcast an advisory on appropriate radio frequencies at 3−minute intervals until the dumping stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING IN PROGRESS OVER (location) AT (altitude) BY (type aircraft) (flight direction).
b. Broadcast a terminating advisory when the fuel dumping operation is completed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
ATTENTION ALL AIRCRAFT.
FUEL DUMPING OVER (location) TERMINATED.


Ok. Interesting info on that. I am no technical expert. But he was low enough to determine there should have been no aircraft below him though (regarding vertical spacing.) He was on final.

He we vectored across final and airplanes underneath him got in front of him and he was put back in so there was definitely airplanes under him.


Ok, thanks for added detail.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:31 am

TYWoolman wrote:
After reading airlinepilotforums.com a bit, my initial opinion is this: Although the fuel dump may have been unnecessary, there may be a legitimate context in the cockpit which necessitated the dump making it excusable/unavoidable.

... so in other words: we simply don’t know what happened as of yet.
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:49 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
I have no qualms with the crew dumping fuel to get under weight but there is zero reason they could not do it at 8,000 feet out over the pacific. You mentioned the crew didn’t want to waste time in case the other engine had the same problem......this is statistically improbable as a compressor stall is engine dependent. With that said your point is valid if an engine flames out and I don’t know why. Could be contaminated fuel or a fuel leak.......but not the case here.


I think the situation changed late downwind, that when they told ATC they needed more time. My thoughts are similar to yours I think they were on 2 engines on downwind, and then single engine for the approach.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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N14AZ
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:28 am

Jouhou wrote:
Ok, how often do you get covered with kerosene, because I get it on me a lot.

zeke wrote:
I have had over the years many fuels over me, to the point where my underwear was soaked.

Sorry, I cannot resist. But what did you guys do to get covered with kerosene? :shock:
Please don’t be shy to answer. Before graduating I made tests on a sewage treatment plant and the hose of a septic sludge tanker exploded next to me covering me with … well, you can imagine (some of us may still have breakfast...). So in what situations do you get covered with kerosene?
 
reltney
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:48 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
D L X wrote:
I dunno.

Generally, if you break something, even if by accident, you are liable to the owners for what you broke. The reason why you broke it may have an effect on punitive damages to convince people not to do it again.

I’d say it’s too early to talk lawsuits, but this IS Los Angeles.

I mean unless you're going to sue for phycological damage you're going to have a hard time showing damages, and so long as it was dropped 2000 feet above the tallest building on the path it was legal, so no regulatory fines.


Well if AV Herald is correct and they did not request a fuel dump......



Why would they. As an airline pilot I don’t “request “. I tell them...... I am flying the plane not atc. You armchair pilots are really......funny
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

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Jouhou
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:48 am

N14AZ wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Ok, how often do you get covered with kerosene, because I get it on me a lot.

zeke wrote:
I have had over the years many fuels over me, to the point where my underwear was soaked.

Sorry, I cannot resist. But what did you guys do to get covered with kerosene? :shock:
Please don’t be shy to answer. Before graduating I made tests on a sewage treatment plant and the hose of a septic sludge tanker exploded next to me covering me with … well, you can imagine (some of us may still have breakfast...). So in what situations do you get covered with kerosene?


The military likes to use preservatives that can only be removed with petroleum distillates. In such case I'm literally hosing down objects with it and sometimes there's some splashback. I'm generally careful to not accidentally turn the hose on myself though. I've also grabbed something I just cleaned not realizing there's kerosene pooled in it and dumped it on myself, etc etc.
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D L X
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:00 am

BravoOne wrote:
D L X wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I must have missed your reply. Are you an avaition attorney by chance?

If you missed my reply, try Ctrl-F.

No. I am not an aviation attorney. I haven’t done av law in 15 years. But enough about me.

If my statement was incorrect, I welcome correction.



I haven't seen anything from that resembles a knowledge of flight operations and specifically the 777-200ER.

Good night:)

Is that necessary to opine on the relevance of SR111? Non-pilots can read, ya know.

I mean I hope this means you agree with me that this was apples and oranges.
 
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zeke
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:13 am

N14AZ wrote:
Sorry, I cannot resist. But what did you guys do to get covered with kerosene? :shock:


Over wing refuelling at night.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BA777FO
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:46 am

longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.


Perhaps there was some negative training. My experience of stalls or limit exceedence in the sim is a mix, but most often having to idle or close to idle the engine to bring it back within limits.

Given the flight time, there was no diagnosis. There was no what we call "caging the chimp" - In The Chimp Model, the inner Chimp is the emotional team within the brain that thinks and acts for us without our permission - it acts on emotion and is unable to take a backward step and think logically. This crew reacted on their emotion - they spent no time diagnosing. Time spent on diagnosis is rarely wasted. Aside from smoke, fire or fumes very few incidents require a return to landing as promptly as this crew did. Their chimp was in control, not the calm, logical side of their brain adept at decision making.

Had they spent some proper time diagnosing, or used a decision making tool (we use TDODAR, not sure if or what Delta use but would be surprised if they don't have one) then they'd have realised that they had time to diagnose properly, they could have held out to sea and jettisoned, conducted a proper brief not only among themselves but to ATC and their cabin crew (how much did the cabin crew and passengers know? They didn't give ATC a proper NITS brief so guessing the cabin crew didn't get one) and they could have avoided spraying several schools.

Unless the cabin or flight deck was filling with smoke or there was an uncontrolled fire in the cabin the flight was conducted too expeditiously - they may have got away with it this time but we're always planninh for our next event - that's why we have to go-around if our main gear doesn't touch down in the TDZ - you might away with it on a 4,000m runway in Dubai but if you pattern match and try and do it in Grand Cayman or St Kitts (or Kingston with a 14 knot tailwind like the AA 738) then it goes wrong.

We always conduct a post-flight review after every sector - not always to pick out the bad but also highlight the good and reinforce that. It's about continued improvement. We're humans so mistakes get made but we need to learn from them and I'd surprised if this isn't used in future as a case study in CRM training and future non-normal management for sim checks in how we should be trying to cage that chimp and not act as impusively as this.
 
flybucky
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:49 am

wjcandee wrote:
This may explain it: I just read that the discharge was automatically initiated by the 777-200's MCADUMP software, which Boeing previously had not disclosed to pilots, but which had been disclosed to airlines on page 4785, footnote 3, of the maintenance documentation.

There's an auto fuel dump feature?? Undisclosed to pilots??

Do you have any links to sources for this?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:03 am

BA777FO wrote:
longhauler wrote:
In reading this thread, i wonder if there hasn’t been some “negative training”.

Every time I had a compressor stall in the sim, we always got it back. Slowly advancing the thrust until the engine operated normally. Then ...... about 10 miles on final, as we configured for landing, slowing, with higher thrust, (not good for a stall) the engine stalled again. This time we didn’t get it back.

So ever since, I always prepare for a single engine landing, as it always happened in the sim. So I would most definitely jettison fuel, even if both were still running. It is sad these Gentlemen are being second guessed. In my opinion, they achieved a perfect end. No one was hurt and the airplane was not damaged.

Good work.


Perhaps there was some negative training. My experience of stalls or limit exceedence in the sim is a mix, but most often having to idle or close to idle the engine to bring it back within limits.

Given the flight time, there was no diagnosis. There was no what we call "caging the chimp" - In The Chimp Model, the inner Chimp is the emotional team within the brain that thinks and acts for us without our permission - it acts on emotion and is unable to take a backward step and think logically. This crew reacted on their emotion - they spent no time diagnosing. Time spent on diagnosis is rarely wasted. Aside from smoke, fire or fumes very few incidents require a return to landing as promptly as this crew did. Their chimp was in control, not the calm, logical side of their brain adept at decision making.

Had they spent some proper time diagnosing, or used a decision making tool (we use TDODAR, not sure if or what Delta use but would be surprised if they don't have one) then they'd have realised that they had time to diagnose properly, they could have held out to sea and jettisoned, conducted a proper brief not only among themselves but to ATC and their cabin crew (how much did the cabin crew and passengers know? They didn't give ATC a proper NITS brief so guessing the cabin crew didn't get one) and they could have avoided spraying several schools.

Unless the cabin or flight deck was filling with smoke or there was an uncontrolled fire in the cabin the flight was conducted too expeditiously - they may have got away with it this time but we're always planninh for our next event - that's why we have to go-around if our main gear doesn't touch down in the TDZ - you might away with it on a 4,000m runway in Dubai but if you pattern match and try and do it in Grand Cayman or St Kitts (or Kingston with a 14 knot tailwind like the AA 738) then it goes wrong.

We always conduct a post-flight review after every sector - not always to pick out the bad but also highlight the good and reinforce that. It's about continued improvement. We're humans so mistakes get made but we need to learn from them and I'd surprised if this isn't used in future as a case study in CRM training and future non-normal management for sim checks in how we should be trying to cage that chimp and not act as impusively as this.


Thanks. That's a very good explanation of what should happen. As mentioned earlier, pilots who were in actual grave danger like Alaska 261 and Valujet 592 were still able to keep ATC in the loop.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:30 am

flybucky wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
This may explain it: I just read that the discharge was automatically initiated by the 777-200's MCADUMP software, which Boeing previously had not disclosed to pilots, but which had been disclosed to airlines on page 4785, footnote 3, of the maintenance documentation.

There's an auto fuel dump feature?? Undisclosed to pilots??

Do you have any links to sources for this?


Ah yes, the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation... Dump. He's making a MCAS/Max joke.
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TYWoolman
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:21 am

N14AZ wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
After reading airlinepilotforums.com a bit, my initial opinion is this: Although the fuel dump may have been unnecessary, there may be a legitimate context in the cockpit which necessitated the dump making it excusable/unavoidable.

... so in other words: we simply don’t know what happened as of yet.


Lol... thanks for my own translation. Whoever dumped the fuel may have been following orders from the captain, even though a "negative" was provided over the airwaves. Potentially 4 pilot minds in the cockpit solving the problem contributed to the legitimate context in my referenced post, perhaps.
 
RightRudder
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:30 pm

A piilot/crew declaring an emergency is a big deal. They are not going to do that for any reason. My point is what was the original cause of the accident? Time will tell whether the airline is negligent or if it was force majure.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:39 pm

RightRudder wrote:
A piilot/crew declaring an emergency is a big deal. They are not going to do that for any reason. My point is what was the original cause of the accident? Time will tell whether the airline is negligent or if it was force majure.


Would any pilot NOT declare an emergency with a compressor stall?
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:48 pm

D L X wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
A piilot/crew declaring an emergency is a big deal. They are not going to do that for any reason. My point is what was the original cause of the accident? Time will tell whether the airline is negligent or if it was force majure.


Would any pilot NOT declare an emergency with a compressor stall?
I don't know. A commercial pilot may have that answer.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".

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