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kalvado
Posts: 2897
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:00 pm

SteelChair wrote:
kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This media attention on this incident, with the attendant lawsuits and now race baiting, are emblematic of all that is wrong with the country.

And the level of ignorance and speculation displayed by some of the posts on this thread beggars the imagination.

New lows on both counts.

Look into the mirror. There is a problem, but it is a different problem. We have deeply plagued industry which doesn't care about anything that doesn't affect it directly/
Pilots praise pilots for putting passengers and airplane first regardless of people on the ground. Maker of this very plane - Boeing - is being bashed for putting shareholder value over the safety of passengers.
I would see both as parts of exact same trend. Me, me, mine - and rest of the world can go to hell....


The situation was fluid. The pilots made a safety of flight decision. No one was hurt. No metal was bent. And contrary to any hyperbolic comments, no one on the ground was injured in any substantial way. There is nothing here. Zero. No one hid anything, no one was hurt, no one died.

There is absolutely no correlation to the Boeing MAX case. Boeing knowingly put people in danger. And then hid that they knew. Multiple crashes, many deaths, long email trail.

What exactly an I looking in the mirror for?

The pilots PANICED and made a VERY QUESTIONABLE safety of flight decision. We were told many many times that airplanes are designed to fly, and rushed landing is only a good idea when there is a clear and immininent danger. Pilots panicing over what should be routinely trained situation is a scary sight, moreso for ETOPS operation where pilots must be mentally prepared to fly for a few hours on a single engine.
And yes, failure to envision consequencies beyond immediate effect is exactly the same as MCAS situation.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2897
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:03 pm

SteelChair wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I doubt you will ever hear CVR for this flight. No accident occurred and nothing beyond SOPS seems t have either.


Nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.


Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.

Youtube has many ATC comms recordings, but I doubt there is a single CVR.
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:16 pm

kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.


Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.

Youtube has many ATC comms recordings, but I doubt there is a single CVR.


Here’s a select choice there’s absolutely tonnes of them:

Delta Airlines flight 191:
https://youtu.be/3ha7oDLZzpw

Dan Air flight 1008:
https://youtu.be/LhBhUzkmo9o

Air Florida flight 90:
https://youtu.be/svly_ElwhxM

Northwest Airlines flight 255:
https://youtu.be/ekMvyMGE9lE

Adam Air flight 574:
https://youtu.be/KgTNkmi8W-4

These next two are probably the two of the most horrifying crashes to be able to listen because both sets of pilots were up against impossible odds and in very different but equally terrifying situations that went on for what must have felt like a lifetime.

This is the full tape of Aeroperu flight 603:
https://youtu.be/oZIjh7d7JmQ

Japan Airlines flight 123:
https://youtu.be/Xfh9-ogUgSQ
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:17 pm

kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Look into the mirror. There is a problem, but it is a different problem. We have deeply plagued industry which doesn't care about anything that doesn't affect it directly/
Pilots praise pilots for putting passengers and airplane first regardless of people on the ground. Maker of this very plane - Boeing - is being bashed for putting shareholder value over the safety of passengers.
I would see both as parts of exact same trend. Me, me, mine - and rest of the world can go to hell....


The situation was fluid. The pilots made a safety of flight decision. No one was hurt. No metal was bent. And contrary to any hyperbolic comments, no one on the ground was injured in any substantial way. There is nothing here. Zero. No one hid anything, no one was hurt, no one died.

There is absolutely no correlation to the Boeing MAX case. Boeing knowingly put people in danger. And then hid that they knew. Multiple crashes, many deaths, long email trail.

What exactly an I looking in the mirror for?

The pilots PANICED and made a VERY QUESTIONABLE safety of flight decision. We were told many many times that airplanes are designed to fly, and rushed landing is only a good idea when there is a clear and immininent danger. Pilots panicing over what should be routinely trained situation is a scary sight, moreso for ETOPS operation where pilots must be mentally prepared to fly for a few hours on a single engine.
And yes, failure to envision consequencies beyond immediate effect is exactly the same as MCAS situation.



Your obviously not a pilot and comments regarding "panicked" and "very questionable" are nothing more flame bait drivel. Give it a rest. Suggest the mods delete this kind of BS.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2897
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:23 pm

TheWorm123 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.

Youtube has many ATC comms recordings, but I doubt there is a single CVR.


Here’s a select choice there’s absolutely tonnes of them:

Delta Airlines flight 191:
https://youtu.be/3ha7oDLZzpw

Dan Air flight 1008:
https://youtu.be/LhBhUzkmo9o

Air Florida flight 90:
https://youtu.be/svly_ElwhxM

Northwest Airlines flight 255:
https://youtu.be/ekMvyMGE9lE

Adam Air flight 574:
https://youtu.be/KgTNkmi8W-4

These next two are probably the two of the most horrifying crashes to be able to listen because both sets of pilots were up against impossible odds and in very different but equally terrifying situations that went on for what must have felt like a lifetime.

This is the full tape of Aeroperu flight 603:
https://youtu.be/oZIjh7d7JmQ

Japan Airlines flight 123:
https://youtu.be/Xfh9-ogUgSQ

Those seem to be quite old, I wonder if there is anything recent. As far as I understand, current policy is to publish CVR transcripts only. And access to these records has to be fairly well controlled.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9048
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:28 pm

SteelChair wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I doubt you will ever hear CVR for this flight. No accident occurred and nothing beyond SOPS seems t have either.


Nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.


Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.


Let me clarify. In the US, it is illegal for the CVR audio to be released. While in years past, some CVRs in foreign countries and a couple in the US were leaked, unless there is an illegal leak of the CVR, nobody in the general public ever hears the CVR for any accident flight. A few folks from various parties to the investigation do (the CVR team), and the representatives try to agree on a transcript. So, to be perfectly-accurate to please the nitpickers on this site, I will correct my statement to:

Other than that, nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.

(And I propose a new A.net rule: any post that begins with "Um..." will be automatically deleted. That locution is incredibly-condescending and imperious, the province of know-it-alls who all-too-often, as here, are completely-wrong. Scratching every such post in its entirety would substantially-improve the tone of discussions on this site, which have devolved, despite the mods' efforts, into, in many cases, a bunch of chirping by people who wouldn't dare speak like that to another's face, lest they be smacked hard. I have been guilty of it myself in the past, and it's just bad.)
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:40 pm

i have always wondered, why does fuel have to be dumped before landing?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:48 pm

kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
This media attention on this incident, with the attendant lawsuits and now race baiting, are emblematic of all that is wrong with the country.

And the level of ignorance and speculation displayed by some of the posts on this thread beggars the imagination.

New lows on both counts.

Look into the mirror. There is a problem, but it is a different problem. We have deeply plagued industry which doesn't care about anything that doesn't affect it directly/
Pilots praise pilots for putting passengers and airplane first regardless of people on the ground. Maker of this very plane - Boeing - is being bashed for putting shareholder value over the safety of passengers.
I would see both as parts of exact same trend. Me, me, mine - and rest of the world can go to hell....


This is such an incredible amount of BS!
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:49 pm

kiowa wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
kalvado wrote:
DL not reporting IFSD on ETOPS flight?
Oh well, that would be interesting.


You don’t have to shut down the engine. Most compressor stalls can be stabilized by pulling the power back.

The ONLY time a crew manually shuts down an engine is when the ECL tells them too.


"Only" is a big word. Engine on fire and ECL inop? Technology is far from perfect.


If the ECL is INOP then we use our Flight Manual.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:52 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
i have always wondered, why does fuel have to be dumped before landing?


It doesn’t in fact most airplanes can’t dump fuel.
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:06 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
i have always wondered, why does fuel have to be dumped before landing?


It doesn’t in fact most airplanes can’t dump fuel.


A big difference between MTOW and MLW would be a reason to include the ability to jettison fuel, right? Otherwise it's likely not needed.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:16 pm

hivue wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
i have always wondered, why does fuel have to be dumped before landing?


It doesn’t in fact most airplanes can’t dump fuel.


A big difference between MTOW and MLW would be a reason to include the ability to jettison fuel, right? Otherwise it's likely not needed.


Yes that’s a reason fuel jettison is included in the Jet....if you can obviously reduce the weight to MLW but it’s not required you can also fly circles for hours with speed brakes out and gear and flaps down to burn it off.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:43 pm

I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
btfarrwm
Posts: 99
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 5:50 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:46 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
hivue wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

It doesn’t in fact most airplanes can’t dump fuel.


A big difference between MTOW and MLW would be a reason to include the ability to jettison fuel, right? Otherwise it's likely not needed.


Yes that’s a reason fuel jettison is included in the Jet....if you can obviously reduce the weight to MLW but it’s not required you can also fly circles for hours with speed brakes out and gear and flaps down to burn it off.


What's the max takeoff weight for a 777 with one functioning engine in case of a need for a go-around? That's the number that matters here, not MLW or MTOW.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:53 pm

wjcandee wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.


Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.


Let me clarify. In the US, it is illegal for the CVR audio to be released. While in years past, some CVRs in foreign countries and a couple in the US were leaked, unless there is an illegal leak of the CVR, nobody in the general public ever hears the CVR for any accident flight. A few folks from various parties to the investigation do (the CVR team), and the representatives try to agree on a transcript. So, to be perfectly-accurate to please the nitpickers on this site, I will correct my statement to:

Other than that, nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.

(And I propose a new A.net rule: any post that begins with "Um..." will be automatically deleted. That locution is incredibly-condescending and imperious, the province of know-it-alls who all-too-often, as here, are completely-wrong. Scratching every such post in its entirety would substantially-improve the tone of discussions on this site, which have devolved, despite the mods' efforts, into, in many cases, a bunch of chirping by people who wouldn't dare speak like that to another's face, lest they be smacked hard. I have been guilty of it myself in the past, and it's just bad.)



Thanks for your clarification:)
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:54 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
hivue wrote:

A big difference between MTOW and MLW would be a reason to include the ability to jettison fuel, right? Otherwise it's likely not needed.


Yes that’s a reason fuel jettison is included in the Jet....if you can obviously reduce the weight to MLW but it’s not required you can also fly circles for hours with speed brakes out and gear and flaps down to burn it off.


What's the max takeoff weight for a 777 with one functioning engine in case of a need for a go-aroun

d? That's the number that matters here, not MLW or MTOW.


It’s MTOW......unless the terrain around an airport requires a higher climb gradient. LAX has an ocean in front of it at sea level GA is not an issue.

If the plane can takeoff on one engine it can go around on one engine......
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:57 pm

btfarrwm wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
hivue wrote:

A big difference between MTOW and MLW would be a reason to include the ability to jettison fuel, right? Otherwise it's likely not needed.


Yes that’s a reason fuel jettison is included in the Jet....if you can obviously reduce the weight to MLW but it’s not required you can also fly circles for hours with speed brakes out and gear and flaps down to burn it off.


What's the max takeoff weight for a 777 with one functioning engine in case of a need for a go-around? That's the number that matters here, not MLW or MTOW.



The 777-200ER is more than capable of executing a go around on a single engine at MGLW at LAX. Just to be clear, it cannot takeoff on one engine as opposed to losing an engine beyond V1, and continuing the takeoff. Slight, but significant difference.
 
NiMar
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:01 pm

RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Good. They should have turned left, circled over the ocean for 20-30 min to dump fuel and then gone in for landing. This plane is ETOPS 180, right?
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1102
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:06 pm

NiMar wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Good. They should have turned left, circled over the ocean for 20-30 min to dump fuel and then gone in for landing. This plane is ETOPS 180, right?


We don't know much of what was happening in the flight deck to think or say what they should have done.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
EdJS
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:17 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:08 pm

RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Not the FAA. The South Coast Air Quality Management District (AQMD), responsible for regulating air quality in the LA area:

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... l-over-l-a
 
NiMar
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:08 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:08 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
NiMar wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Good. They should have turned left, circled over the ocean for 20-30 min to dump fuel and then gone in for landing. This plane is ETOPS 180, right?


We don't know much of what was happening in the flight deck to think or say what they should have done.


Well if the above news of a fine is true I'd say the FAA has a decent enough picture of the situation.

Edit: and now I see it isn't from the FAA... yet.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1437
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:29 pm

wjcandee wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.


Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.


Let me clarify. In the US, it is illegal for the CVR audio to be released. While in years past, some CVRs in foreign countries and a couple in the US were leaked, unless there is an illegal leak of the CVR, nobody in the general public ever hears the CVR for any accident flight. A few folks from various parties to the investigation do (the CVR team), and the representatives try to agree on a transcript. So, to be perfectly-accurate to please the nitpickers on this site, I will correct my statement to:

Other than that, nobody ever hears the CVR for any accident flight.

(And I propose a new A.net rule: any post that begins with "Um..." will be automatically deleted. That locution is incredibly-condescending and imperious, the province of know-it-alls who all-too-often, as here, are completely-wrong. Scratching every such post in its entirety would substantially-improve the tone of discussions on this site, which have devolved, despite the mods' efforts, into, in many cases, a bunch of chirping by people who wouldn't dare speak like that to another's face, lest they be smacked hard. I have been guilty of it myself in the past, and it's just bad.)


Many CVRs have been heard, that is not incorrect.
 
889091
Posts: 211
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:32 pm

How often are those fuel jettison valves tested anyway? What would have happened if they initiated the fuel dump process, but were not able to close the valves? Land anyway with a steady stream of fuel emanating from the valves?

CI120 in Okinawa comes to mind...
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:45 pm

NiMar wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Good. They should have turned left, circled over the ocean for 20-30 min to dump fuel and then gone in for landing. This plane is ETOPS 180, right?



What does any of this ahve to do with ETOPS?
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:48 pm

889091 wrote:
How often are those fuel jettison valves tested anyway? What would have happened if they initiated the fuel dump process, but were not able to close the valves? Land anyway with a steady stream of fuel emanating from the valves?

CI120 in Okinawa comes to mind...




I believe the WOW switches would be the final authority if all the automation were to fail, but that's not part of this story.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:48 pm

BravoOne wrote:
NiMar wrote:
RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.


Good. They should have turned left, circled over the ocean for 20-30 min to dump fuel and then gone in for landing. This plane is ETOPS 180, right?



What does any of this ahve to do with ETOPS?


He ws making a point that if this had happened at the critical point the crew would have had to fly for 180minutes on one engine.....so why were they in such a hurry to get back and land.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:50 pm

889091 wrote:
How often are those fuel jettison valves tested anyway? What would have happened if they initiated the fuel dump process, but were not able to close the valves? Land anyway with a steady stream of fuel emanating from the valves?

CI120 in Okinawa comes to mind...


What other option is there? You are either going to land or run out of fuel and crash......either way you will come down.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:53 pm

ETOPS does not begin until you have pased the ETOPS Entry Point (look it up). They could have flown around for 12 hours and never entered the ETOPS phase of flight. Sime people throw terms around as if they actually know what they are talking about.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:00 pm

BravoOne wrote:
ETOPS does not begin until you have pased the ETOPS Entry Point (look it up). They could have flown around for 12 hours and never entered the ETOPS phase of flight. Sime people throw terms around as if they actually know what they are talking about.


I understand what ETOPS is YOU are missing the point.

ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours. Delta loses an engine on a 777 coming out of LAX flies for 25 minutes and dumps gas all over the city.

THE POINT. Why did they rush? There is no reason to react the way they did when the aircraft is able to fly on one engine......if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be certified for ETOPS 180.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:09 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
ETOPS does not begin until you have pased the ETOPS Entry Point (look it up). They could have flown around for 12 hours and never entered the ETOPS phase of flight. Sime people throw terms around as if they actually know what they are talking about.


I understand what ETOPS is YOU are missing the point.

ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours. Delta loses an engine on a 777 coming out of LAX flies for 25 minutes and dumps gas all over the city.

THE POINT. Why did they rush? There is no reason to react the way they did when the aircraft is able to fly on one engine......if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be certified for ETOPS 180.



It wouldn't be certified for any ETOPS be it 60/120/180/207/240/330 but I get your drift. I like that "my 787" part best:) Sort of like the old days when when you said "The Clipper One" instead of just Clipper One.

I don't read the OP's post the same way as you do. Sorry
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:43 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours.


Only if the nearest suitable is 4 hours away, right? If it's 2 hours away, you aren't allowed to say, "I'd rather land at this other place that's 3 hours away. No big deal because I'm ETOPS 240." ETOPS XXX is not carte blanche to fly XXX minutes on 1 engine, correct?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8413
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:45 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:

ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours.


There was an instance 787 dumped fuel on taxiway because of failed valve. 777 cannot use such excuse because it is built with more reliable components.

https://news.airwise.com/story/view/1357855647.html
All posts are just opinions.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:08 pm

hivue wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours.


Only if the nearest suitable is 4 hours away, right? If it's 2 hours away, you aren't allowed to say, "I'd rather land at this other place that's 3 hours away. No big deal because I'm ETOPS 240." ETOPS XXX is not carte blanche to fly XXX minutes on 1 engine, correct?


Nearest suitable is not always the best airport when you are talking international ETOPS flying. Too many variables to discus.

With that said if you didn’t need to be ETOPS 240 then you wouldn’t file it. If a better airport was closer then you certainly use it. There is a point on a route called a CRITICAL POINT :D where you are at the furthest point in time from 2 airports. If you lose an engine at THAT point and you are ETOPS 240 you will most likely be flying 240+ minutes.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6255
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:20 pm

BravoOne wrote:
btfarrwm wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

Yes that’s a reason fuel jettison is included in the Jet....if you can obviously reduce the weight to MLW but it’s not required you can also fly circles for hours with speed brakes out and gear and flaps down to burn it off.


What's the max takeoff weight for a 777 with one functioning engine in case of a need for a go-around? That's the number that matters here, not MLW or MTOW.



The 777-200ER is more than capable of executing a go around on a single engine at MGLW at LAX. Just to be clear, it cannot takeoff on one engine as opposed to losing an engine beyond V1, and continuing the takeoff. Slight, but significant difference.


The question on OEI performance is making landing climb gradient with landing flaps extended. No doubt, they could do it at LAX, but approach and landing climb gradient scare the key parameters in requiring fuel dump.
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:21 pm

RightRudder wrote:
I heard that the FAA slammed a fine on DL for committing a public nuisance.

More accurately: the South Coast Air Quality Management District issued Delta a notice of violation.

“The company can choose to make voluntary measures,” said AQMD spokesman Bradley Whitaker. For example, Delta could find ways to reduce pollution emissions or impose practices that prevent further public nuisances. “If there isn’t a settlement reached, then we can file a lawsuit,” the spokesman said.

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... l-over-l-a
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:32 pm

The 2 scenarios are either:

1. The fuel dump at 2000 ft was inappropriate. There was no critical emergency since the compressor stall was under control. They could have dumped fuel over the ocean, then landed.

2. Something more critical than a controlled compressor stall occurred later, and the pilots had to urgently dump fuel without informing ATC.

My question is, in Scenario #2, wouldn't that be a more serious incident that would be filed to the FAA? But as of now, there is no incident filed with the FAA. Is the fact that there wasn't an incident report mean that there was no critical emergency?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:39 pm

flybucky wrote:
The 2 scenarios are either:

1. The fuel dump at 2000 ft was inappropriate. There was no critical emergency since the compressor stall was under control. They could have dumped fuel over the ocean, then landed.

2. Something more critical than a controlled compressor stall occurred later, and the pilots had to urgently dump fuel without informing ATC.

My question is, in Scenario #2, wouldn't that be a more serious incident that would be filed to the FAA? But as of now, there is no incident filed with the FAA. Is the fact that there wasn't an incident report mean that there was no critical emergency?


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... 0&rgn=div5

830.5 list all NTSB reportable items.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:52 pm

flybucky wrote:
The 2 scenarios are either:

1. The fuel dump at 2000 ft was inappropriate. There was no critical emergency since the compressor stall was under control. They could have dumped fuel over the ocean, then landed.

2. Something more critical than a controlled compressor stall occurred later, and the pilots had to urgently dump fuel without informing ATC.

My question is, in Scenario #2, wouldn't that be a more serious incident that would be filed to the FAA? But as of now, there is no incident filed with the FAA. Is the fact that there wasn't an incident report mean that there was no critical emergency?



Thanks for that. I did hear it on News Radio though. LOL
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:53 pm

hivue wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours.


Only if the nearest suitable is 4 hours away, right? If it's 2 hours away, you aren't allowed to say, "I'd rather land at this other place that's 3 hours away. No big deal because I'm ETOPS 240." ETOPS XXX is not carte blanche to fly XXX minutes on 1 engine, correct?

Not sure if people are being obtuse or recalcitrant.

The obvious point is that senior international ETOPS pilots should be prepared to fly 3 hours on one engine, not “panic” and risk public safety to get down within 30 minutes. Not saying they panicked, but they should have a damn good reason for their actions.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:57 pm

ikramerica wrote:
hivue wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
ETOPS 240 I lose an engine on my 787 and fly with 1 engine for 4 hours.


Only if the nearest suitable is 4 hours away, right? If it's 2 hours away, you aren't allowed to say, "I'd rather land at this other place that's 3 hours away. No big deal because I'm ETOPS 240." ETOPS XXX is not carte blanche to fly XXX minutes on 1 engine, correct?

Not sure if people are being obtuse or recalcitrant.

The obvious point is that senior international ETOPS pilots should be prepared to fly 3 hours on one engine, not “panic” and risk public safety to get down within 30 minutes. Not saying they panicked, but they should have a damn good reason for their actions.


^^^^Bingo
 
flybucky
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:12 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
It also flew over Calabasas and Burbank, I am sure the people there can also allege intentional dumping and sue?

If you look at the FR24 playback, the altitude over Calabasas was 7750 ft, Burbank 7100 ft. So even if they were dumping that early, those are above the recommended 6000 ft minimum altitude for fuel dumping. That should have allowed to the fuel to atomize, so those cities would not have noticed.

Screenshots of DL89 over Calabasas (7750 ft), Burbank (7100 ft), 6000 ft, 4000 ft, 2000 ft, altitude chart:
https://imgur.com/a/X6SBd3m

(Note: I am in no way supporting the allegations that the pilots purposely chose which neighborhood to dump fuel on, that would be ridiculous. Just adding some facts.)
 
RightRudder
Posts: 166
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:59 am

Anyone know how many pounds of thrust per engine this 777 has? Thanks in advance
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
BravoOne
Posts: 4094
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:25 am

flybucky wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
It also flew over Calabasas and Burbank, I am sure the people there can also allege intentional dumping and sue?

If you look at the FR24 playback, the altitude over Calabasas was 7750 ft, Burbank 7100 ft. So even if they were dumping that early, those are above the recommended 6000 ft minimum altitude for fuel dumping. That should have allowed to the fuel to atomize, so those cities would not have noticed.

Screenshots of DL89 over Calabasas (7750 ft), Burbank (7100 ft), 6000 ft, 4000 ft, 2000 ft, altitude chart:
https://imgur.com/a/X6SBd3m

(Note: I am in no way supporting the allegations that the pilots purposely chose which neighborhood to dump fuel on, that would be ridiculous. Just adding some facts.)



Hope not as I use to live in Calabasas Park I might have a reason to sue.
 
RightRudder
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:35 am

BravoOne wrote:
kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

The situation was fluid. The pilots made a safety of flight decision. No one was hurt. No metal was bent. And contrary to any hyperbolic comments, no one on the ground was injured in any substantial way. There is nothing here. Zero. No one hid anything, no one was hurt, no one died.

There is absolutely no correlation to the Boeing MAX case. Boeing knowingly put people in danger. And then hid that they knew. Multiple crashes, many deaths, long email trail.

What exactly an I looking in the mirror for?

The pilots PANICED and made a VERY QUESTIONABLE safety of flight decision. We were told many many times that airplanes are designed to fly, and rushed landing is only a good idea when there is a clear and immininent danger. Pilots panicing over what should be routinely trained situation is a scary sight, moreso for ETOPS operation where pilots must be mentally prepared to fly for a few hours on a single engine.
And yes, failure to envision consequencies beyond immediate effect is exactly the same as MCAS situation.



Your obviously not a pilot and comments regarding "panicked" and "very questionable" are nothing more flame bait drivel. Give it a rest. Suggest the mods delete this kind of BS.


Uh, so I can't comment either? Shucks.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
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longhauler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:03 am

I honestly think a lot of people go here misunderstand what ETOPS certification actually means.

If this 777 is ETOPS 180 certified, it means it has met certain standards that allows it to fly up to 180 minutes from a suitable landing site. Things like necessary equipment, maintenance and MEL restrictions, cargo smoke detection and suppression standards, pilot and airline licensing requirements, etc.

“I know that” cuing the eye rolls.

What is DOESN’T mean, is that the aircraft is capable of suppressing, solving, fixing, etc. EVERY possible emergency for 180 minutes. If an on board emergency presented itself, the pilots don’t just lean back, relaxing saying ...... ahhh, there’s no hurry, we have 180 minutes. Think say, cabin fire, medical emergency, fumes/smoke, uncontrollable engine fire, etc.

That is why the actual pilots on here are curious about what was actually going on in the cockpit of that airplane. But ..... the CVR may never be public, the FAA may be satisfied, Delta may be happy with the performance of the pilots and no further action will be taken. So relax kids, there’s a very good chance you’ll never know!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Bsowles
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:59 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:32 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

Um, youtube has many of them. Very easy to find.

Youtube has many ATC comms recordings, but I doubt there is a single CVR.


Here’s a select choice there’s absolutely tonnes of them:

Delta Airlines flight 191:
https://youtu.be/3ha7oDLZzpw

Dan Air flight 1008:
https://youtu.be/LhBhUzkmo9o

Air Florida flight 90:
https://youtu.be/svly_ElwhxM

Northwest Airlines flight 255:
https://youtu.be/ekMvyMGE9lE

Adam Air flight 574:
https://youtu.be/KgTNkmi8W-4

These next two are probably the two of the most horrifying crashes to be able to listen because both sets of pilots were up against impossible odds and in very different but equally terrifying situations that went on for what must have felt like a lifetime.

This is the full tape of Aeroperu flight 603:
https://youtu.be/oZIjh7d7JmQ

Japan Airlines flight 123:
https://youtu.be/Xfh9-ogUgSQ


That Aeroperu transmission was sickening to hear. Those poor men on the flight deck never had a chance. It’s so disturbing I’m not going to listen to the JAL tape.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9391
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:03 am

Most of this discussion here is beside the point. The single question is, why did the pilots dump the fuel flying low over a build up area, instead of dumping fuel at the right height, at this location preferable over the ocean.
A special emergency? Nobody here has presented a likely scenario.
Bad management of the emergency? Deciding not to dump, than suddenly deciding to dump at this unsuitable location.

Pilots are not gods, it must be possible to criticize their decisions. The common answer here, they will know why they did it and nobody should check up on it, because the pilot is god and you have to believe in him, sounds quite stupid. Non of the defenders of the pilots have come up with a good reason, why the pilots did dump fuel were they did.

And yes, dumping fuel on people should not be taken as lightly, as a lot of posters here do.

It was either a non event and than they should not have dumped fuel over a build up era.

Or their were serious trouble with the engines and than we would see investigation of the event.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2897
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:21 am

longhauler wrote:
I honestly think a lot of people go here misunderstand what ETOPS certification actually means.

If this 777 is ETOPS 180 certified, it means it has met certain standards that allows it to fly up to 180 minutes from a suitable landing site. Things like necessary equipment, maintenance and MEL restrictions, cargo smoke detection and suppression standards, pilot and airline licensing requirements, etc.

“I know that” cuing the eye rolls.

What is DOESN’T mean, is that the aircraft is capable of suppressing, solving, fixing, etc. EVERY possible emergency for 180 minutes. If an on board emergency presented itself, the pilots don’t just lean back, relaxing saying ...... ahhh, there’s no hurry, we have 180 minutes. Think say, cabin fire, medical emergency, fumes/smoke, uncontrollable engine fire, etc.

That is why the actual pilots on here are curious about what was actually going on in the cockpit of that airplane. But ..... the CVR may never be public, the FAA may be satisfied, Delta may be happy with the performance of the pilots and no further action will be taken. So relax kids, there’s a very good chance you’ll never know!

Given media attention, it's in DL best interest to have some justification out, even in a form of a leak. There is none.
There is no plausible explanation of what happened. Aircraft could vacate runway, engine got restarted, they were not sure if emergency equipment would be needed - no signs of dire emergency. Maybe equipment hesitation is a sign of no CRM and proper briefing, but that is not an emergency per se. Which leaves panic as the most plausible explanation.
As for FAA - again, it's in DL interest to have something official. Either a nod or a fine. Anything that settles the issue.
Otherwise, scars on DL relationship with the city may be too harsh. When their gate lease is up for renewal?
 
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longhauler
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Most of this discussion here is beside the point. The single question is, why did the pilots dump the fuel flying low over a build up area, instead of dumping fuel at the right height, at this location preferable over the ocean.


It is beside the point and that’s why most of what is uttered in this thread is worthless. Everyone keeps going around and around, talking fluff ..... coming back to the very question you ask? In my opinion, that is THE question .... why?

Without listening to the CVR recordings, it would be a hard guess.

Coming back to the “emergency” that brought them back to LAX. Knowing, and having had, compressor stalls, I am surprised it warranted such a hurry. With 3 (or 4) depending on how DL does jumpseats on flights with relief pilots, there was a lot of experience sitting there.

I personally have a lot of theories, some plausible, some less so ..... but all have occurred in the past. But rest assured, those that matter already know what happened. With lawyers already clawing at the ground salivating, I am not surprised that it isn’t public.

The main intent of my addition to the thread though, talking about ETOPS, is that it isn’t a wild card, get out of jail free card. If something else arose and line one of the QRH was “initiate diversion to nearest suitable airport” or “land ASAP” (both exist in current emergency procedures) then the pilots must do just that. The fact that the aircraft is ETOPS 180 certified, it irrelevant.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
kalvado
Posts: 2897
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Re: A DL 772, Flying LAX-PVG, Makes Emergency Landing And Dumps Fuel On School

Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:47 pm

longhauler wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Most of this discussion here is beside the point. The single question is, why did the pilots dump the fuel flying low over a build up area, instead of dumping fuel at the right height, at this location preferable over the ocean.


It is beside the point and that’s why most of what is uttered in this thread is worthless. Everyone keeps going around and around, talking fluff ..... coming back to the very question you ask? In my opinion, that is THE question .... why?

Without listening to the CVR recordings, it would be a hard guess.

Coming back to the “emergency” that brought them back to LAX. Knowing, and having had, compressor stalls, I am surprised it warranted such a hurry. With 3 (or 4) depending on how DL does jumpseats on flights with relief pilots, there was a lot of experience sitting there.

I personally have a lot of theories, some plausible, some less so ..... but all have occurred in the past. But rest assured, those that matter already know what happened. With lawyers already clawing at the ground salivating, I am not surprised that it isn’t public.

The main intent of my addition to the thread though, talking about ETOPS, is that it isn’t a wild card, get out of jail free card. If something else arose and line one of the QRH was “initiate diversion to nearest suitable airport” or “land ASAP” (both exist in current emergency procedures) then the pilots must do just that. The fact that the aircraft is ETOPS 180 certified, it irrelevant.

What are the possible options for the hurry from your perspective - options that wouldn't require specific ground assistance nor notifying ATC?

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